Suggestions for a long(ish) lens for 5x7 please

[timbo10ca]

I've been working with my sole lens- a 180mm Sironar-N since I got my camera a year ago. I'm starting to think I'd like something in the 360mm to 420mm as a portrait/short tele lens to compress the subject field. Ideally it would be sharp, small and light, and in the $500-$750 range mounted in an accurate shutter. Any ideas, or offers of anything for sale? If I don't pick one up in the next few months, I'm hoping to troll for something at foto3, but don't really know what to look for. One other thing-my camera (ShenHao) still has the factory GG, so a fast/bright lens would be nice.

p.s. I'd additionally be interested in one of the soft beater protrait lenses that I see gaining some popularity. If Jim Galli reads this post- I saw (and loved) your article in View Camera last month. Any suggestions for my 5x7???

Thanks,
Tim

[John Kasaian]

What size is the lens board? My Agfa has 5-1/4" lensboards and a 14" APO Artar fits very well, even at f/9 it lights up the gg nicely in a dial set compur. My other 14"er is a f/6.3 Commercial Ektar--a splendid lens in a big #5 Universal. You should be able to find these in your price range.

[Scott Davis]

You can probably also still find a 19" Artar or a 450 Nikkor-M in your price range. Both are f9 lenses (the artar MIGHT be an f11, but I forget). A 19" Red Dot Apo-Artar might be out of the range, but an older Artar should fall in that range. If you go for one in barrel, it will definitely be in your range.

[Bill_1856]

15" Tele-Raptar. It will cover nicely, and doesn't require much more bellows extension than your 18 cm lens, leaving the camera nicely balanced.

[Kevin Crisp]

15" Wolly Raptar in an Alphax shutter will leave you lots of budget.

[Michael Graves]

This is from a 14" Apo-Artar on 5x7.

[timbo10ca]

What size is the lens board? My Agfa has 5-1/4" lensboards and a 14" APO Artar fits very well, even at f/9 it lights up the gg nicely in a dial set compur. My other 14"er is a f/6.3 Commercial Ektar--a splendid lens in a big #5 Universal. You should be able to find these in your price range.

The Shen Hao lensboard is (I think) Linhof dimensions. I measured mine and it is 3 3/4 inches wide aby 4 inches tall. This sits in a lensboard adapter that can be removed giving a hole 5" by 5", so I could use either size, I guess.

Thanks everybody so far for the suggestions. I hope they keep coming.

Tim

[Ted Harris]

I find that I use 300-360 more than other focal lengths for a longish but not LONG lens on 5x7. I also use the 450 Nikkor a lot and that would be my recommendation. If you can find one under 900-1000 grab it. OTOH, it is neither small nor light in a #3 shutter.

A G Claron should meet your price and size needs.

[Jim Galli]

Hi Tim. Thanks for the nice compliment. I must have something around the place for portraits. A 14" Heliar would do both jobs well for you but you'd have to learn to shoot without a shutter. Maybe a Packard could go on the 5X5 board with standoff's.

[Ole Tjugen]

I use two 360ish lenses, one fast and one portable.

The fast and bright one is a 360mm f:5.6 Symmar Convertible, in a Compound 5 shutter. Nice lens, but too big to carry.

The portable one is a 355mm f:9 G-Claron, in a Compound 3 shutter. This one will fit on a Technika lens board.

[eric black]

I have a Nikkor 360mm T ED that covers 5x7 (210mm image circle) in a Copol 1 shutter that I am still interested in selling- if interested, do a search of older posts and info on it should come up.

[timbo10ca]

Hi Tim. Thanks for the nice compliment. I must have something around the place for portraits. A 14" Heliar would do both jobs well for you but you'd have to learn to shoot without a shutter. Maybe a Packard could go on the 5X5 board with standoff's.

Heck- why not :D What might we throw together for me to use?

[timbo10ca]

I have a Nikkor 360mm T ED that covers 5x7 (210mm image circle) in a Copol 1 shutter that I am still interested in selling- if interested, do a search of older posts and info on it should come up.

Eric- I can't find the post searching your posts or the lens itself.

Tim

[eric black]

Tim
I guess they erase for Sale posts after a while- I listed it this last summer and got no interest so I thought Id hold out for a while and relist after the holidays or next spring. the lens is a Nikkor 360T ED lens which is a telephoto moderate sized lens. It will just barely cover 5x7 so if you are looking for any movements, you dont want this lens. The lens has immaculate glass and an accurate shutter but the rear barrel shows exterior wear marks from putting it on and taking it off the camera that some might not find appealing- none of the marks penetrate the anodization coating, but they are clearly visible. I initially wanted it to add a 500mm rear cell to it but they are scarce and I havent yet come across one for sale. Im now considering a Fujinon 450C as an alternative. Im in no hurry to sell this lens but if you are interested I can email you pictures and a better description when I get home tonight. I think my last price was about $700 for the lens if I remember correctly.
Eric

[Richard Raymond]

New lens for the Shen Hao that fits your most of your requirements, including price, would be the Fuji 300mm C lens. Small, light and around $700 USD.

[Kevin Crisp]

The Fuji 450c is a terrific lens if you want to go that long. Lots of coverage, sharp even wide open. (Based on my forgetting to stop it down once...)

[timbo10ca]

Tim
I guess they erase for Sale posts after a while- I listed it this last summer and got no interest so I thought Id hold out for a while and relist after the holidays or next spring. the lens is a Nikkor 360T ED lens which is a telephoto moderate sized lens. It will just barely cover 5x7 so if you are looking for any movements, you dont want this lens. The lens has immaculate glass and an accurate shutter but the rear barrel shows exterior wear marks from putting it on and taking it off the camera that some might not find appealing- none of the marks penetrate the anodization coating, but they are clearly visible. I initially wanted it to add a 500mm rear cell to it but they are scarce and I havent yet come across one for sale. Im now considering a Fujinon 450C as an alternative. Im in no hurry to sell this lens but if you are interested I can email you pictures and a better description when I get home tonight. I think my last price was about $700 for the lens if I remember correctly.
Eric


Hmmm- I would be using it for landscape as well, so movements would be kinda important. My next thought was adding the 500mm as well. I guess not :(

[Dave Wooten]

450 Fuginon C, covers up to 14 x 17 , comes in Copal shutter..small lens

[timbo10ca]

450 Fuginon C, covers up to 14 x 17 , comes in Copal shutter..small lens

This would equate to around 110mm in 35mm, correct?
It sounds like a popular lens- I'll look into it. I have some questions though (that will undoubtedly show my ignorance)-

My camera has 610mm of bellows draw- how close would I be able to focus this lens? If I remember my reading correctly, I need the lens' focal length of draw to focus at infinity, then more bellows as I focus closer to a max of 1:1 ratio at twice the lens' focal length. I've never put this into practice, so my thinking is rusty (my one and only lens is 180mm). How versatile is a 450mm lens in close quarters like livingroom window light portraiture? Can it be used for close-ups?

Thanks,
Tim

[Gene McCluney]

This would equate to around 110mm in 35mm, correct?
It sounds like a popular lens- I'll look into it. I have some questions though (that will undoubtedly show my ignorance)-

My camera has 610mm of bellows draw- how close would I be able to focus this lens? If I remember my reading correctly, I need the lens' focal length of draw to focus at infinity, then more bellows as I focus closer to a max of 1:1 ratio at twice the lens' focal length. I've never put this into practice, so my thinking is rusty (my one and only lens is 180mm). How versatile is a 450mm lens in close quarters like livingroom window light portraiture? Can it be used for close-ups?

Thanks,
Tim

You are correct that a 300mm lens (for example) requires 300mm of bellows draw to focus at infinity, and you double that for 1+1. So to image a subject life-size on the ground glass in sharp focus would require 600mm of bellows draw. A 450mm lens would require 900mm of bellows draw to image a subject life-size on the glass.

The above info is for Standard large format lenses. Now, for "Telephoto" design lenses, this formula does not work, as Telephoto design lenses are designed to focus with less bellows draw than standard lenses. However, Telephoto (design) lenses normally do not have very large image circles, thus, while you can focus a longer (TELEPHOTO) lens with less bellows, you cannot do much if any tilt or shift because the image circle is so small.

There are 5x7 cameras out there with "triple-extension" bellows and enough track to rack the bellows out that far, but most 5x7's do not have that much bellows. Probably the longest Standard lens you should consider is a 14", or 375mm, which, while needing more bellows than you have for 1:1 reproduction, should allow you to easily shoot head and shoulders crops with the amount of bellows draw you have. Another idea for more close focusing is to make the opposite of a recessed lensboard....a top-hat lensboard, with the lens mounting hole sticking out on a box a couple of inches in front of where the lensboard mounts to the camera. I find that hobby stores can have quite a few unfinished wood items that can be used to make such a lensboard. Today I just purchased a little square wood box that I am going to mount on a home made lensboard for my Rittreck 5x7 view, making a Top-hat lensboard, so I can do some reasonably close focus on a 375mm lens.

[John O'Connell]

In a 450mm lens of normal design, you couldn't get to 1:2, but you could get close enough for most close-ups. 1:2 would require 675mm of bellows, and you're 75mm short. (My copy of VCT is 150 miles away at the moment and I don't feel like re-deriving the formula.)

In 450mm lenses, you've got lots of options for 5x7. The Artar, the Ronar (I have a 485mm f/9 version), the Fujinon C, or the Nikkor M.

[timbo10ca]

I see Midwest Photo Exchange has a 360 f6.8 Sironar-N for $475 (I assume in shutter). Fast lens, and I like my 180 Sironar-N. Anybody have an opinion on this lens?

Also- what about an Apo- Ronar 360mm? What exactly is a process lens, and what are the prices like for these? I mention it because I've read they're nice and small for backpacking.

[Ted Harris]

It s a great performer but a real honker. Not for trucking around in the field if either size or weight are a concern. I own a 300 5.6 Apo Symmar, use it in the studio all the time. In fact it is on the camera now. The only time it leaves the studio is when I take it to one of our Fine Focus Workshops to show participants what a really big modern lens looks like.

My preferred 300 btw is the Fuji 300A but they now sell for over 1000 used. If you are thinking 450 I suggest the 450 Nikkor as another option, it has even more coverage than the Fuji C and is a great performer.

[sanking]

My choice of long lenses for 5X7 are:

300mm Nikkor-M
450mm Fujinon-C
600mm Fujinon-C

It does not get any better than this if size and weight is of consequence. The only reason to look at anything else would be to 1) save money, or 2) you need a wider aperture for composing and focusing. Because of their size and weight I would not bother with telephoto designs unless you don't have enough bellows draw.

Sandy King

[J_Tardiff]

Quite the timely thread for me as I finally decided that I want something longer than my 210mm APO Symmar -- and Jim at Mpex just ordered me a 5x7 Tachihara, so I am trying to reconfigure my lens setup to cover 4x5 and 5x7.

Currently own a 110XL (a recent gift from my better half!) and the above 210. As I hike a fair amount I want any additions to be a bit smaller.

So I have a specific question about the step-up from 210, do you folks with more experience think a 300 will be sufficient or am I better off trying to find a 360? I fear the 450 might be tight (bellows draw).

I do like the idea of the 300-M Nikkor as the cost is reasonable and they are not too impossible to find.

Subjects would be mostly landscape, though I cannot rule out "field portraits" (I currently use a Wolly 12" Velostigmat for "regular" portraits but I'm not hiking with that monster).

Thanks,

JT

[timbo10ca]

My choice of long lenses for 5X7 are:

300mm Nikkor-M
450mm Fujinon-C
600mm Fujinon-C

It does not get any better than this if size and weight is of consequence. The only reason to look at anything else would be to 1) save money, or 2) you need a wider aperture for composing and focusing. Because of their size and weight I would not bother with telephoto designs unless you don't have enough bellows draw.

Sandy King

The Fujinon C 450 is a popular one! How do I figure out how close I could focus it with 610mm (max) of bellows draw?

Tim

[Gene McCluney]

Quite the timely thread for me as I finally decided that I want something longer than my 210mm APO Symmar -- and Jim at Mpex just ordered me a 5x7 Tachihara, so I am trying to reconfigure my lens setup to cover 4x5 and 5x7.

Currently own a 110XL (a recent gift from my better half!) and the above 210. As I hike a fair amount I want any additions to be a bit smaller.

So I have a specific question about the step-up from 210, do you folks with more experience think a 300 will be sufficient or am I better off trying to find a 360? I fear the 450 might be tight (bellows draw).

I do like the idea of the 300-M Nikkor as the cost is reasonable and they are not too impossible to find.

Subjects would be mostly landscape, though I cannot rule out "field portraits" (I currently use a Wolly 12" Velostigmat for "regular" portraits but I'm not hiking with that monster).

Thanks,

JT

I would get the 300mm if you can only get one lens. The 210 is "slightly" wide for 5x7, and the 300mm will be "slightly" long. (my opinion)

Myself, I can't do without (in addition to the above focal lengths) 250mm, 375mm,
and 400mm and 500mm telephoto for certain shots.

[Scott Davis]

Two other suggestions for short(er) lenses - 12" Commercial Ektar f6.3, in an Ilex #4 shutter. This can be mounted directly into a Linhof Technika board, so it will fit on just about any 5x7 field camera. The 14" Commercial Ektar is another terrific somewhat longer lens, but it requires an Ilex #5 shutter, so it is a tight squeeze via a top-hat type adapter to mount it on a Technika board, but it CAN be done. It is also a bit heavy for the front standard of many smaller 5x7 cameras. There is a 12" f4.5 Ektar floating around out there if you need FAST glass, but it also comes in a #5 Ilex. For doing portraits on 5x7, you don't need 1:2 ratio, unless you really really want to take photos of people's eyes full-frame. And then, I wouldn't want a 19" lens anyway, the bellows factor would be too great.

[John O'Connell]

The Fujinon C 450 is a popular one! How do I figure out how close I could focus it with 610mm (max) of bellows draw?

Tim

My back of the envelope calculation is that you could focus on a subject 15" by 11" with that lens and 610mm of bellows on 5x7. Just about 1:2.

I'm guessing that you'd be a little less than a meter from the subject (back of the envelope, 900mm).

[timbo10ca]

Two other suggestions for short(er) lenses - 12" Commercial Ektar f6.3, in an Ilex #4 shutter. This can be mounted directly into a Linhof Technika board, so it will fit on just about any 5x7 field camera. The 14" Commercial Ektar is another terrific somewhat longer lens, but it requires an Ilex #5 shutter, so it is a tight squeeze via a top-hat type adapter to mount it on a Technika board, but it CAN be done. It is also a bit heavy for the front standard of many smaller 5x7 cameras. There is a 12" f4.5 Ektar floating around out there if you need FAST glass, but it also comes in a #5 Ilex. For doing portraits on 5x7, you don't need 1:2 ratio, unless you really really want to take photos of people's eyes full-frame. And then, I wouldn't want a 19" lens anyway, the bellows factor would be too great.

Thanks for the suggestions- The Shen Hao board (with adapter removed) is 5", so #5 Ilex would fit on it o.k. I imagine? These sound like large heavy lenses though- less suitable for backpacking. Are they indeed pretty big to require such large shutters?

Tim

[timbo10ca]

My back of the envelope calculation is that you could focus on a subject 15" by 11" with that lens and 610mm of bellows on 5x7. Just about 1:2.

I'm guessing that you'd be a little less than a meter from the subject (back of the envelope, 900mm).

That sounds pretty good, actually- I didn't think I would be able to get that close with such a long lens. How do you actually figure this out, BTW?

[J_Tardiff]

I would get the 300mm if you can only get one lens. The 210 is "slightly" wide for 5x7, and the 300mm will be "slightly" long. (my opinion)

Myself, I can't do without (in addition to the above focal lengths) 250mm, 375mm,
and 400mm and 500mm telephoto for certain shots.

Thanks, Gene -- this is the way I was leaning. I may add an intermediate in time, but I find it easier to learn by making relatively "large" jumps (~100mm) in focal length to start.

I've got Jim at Mpex hunting for a Nikkor 300-M for me.

regards,

JT

[Nick_3536]

The Shen 5x7 uses Sinar boards but comes with a Linhof adapter.

You've got a big budget.

If it was me I'd look for a big fast 300mm or 360mm. In bargain grade from KEH then can be had very cheap. I bought an Orbit-S 300mm for less then $150 awhile back. But even a Fuji-W won't be much more then $300 maybe $400. The thing is these things are big and heavy. You'll likely want a Sinar board for them and the #3 shutter.

The Fuji 450mm is tiny on the other hand. I'd watch for a cheap big lens and use the savings on the Fuji 450mm F/12.5

[timbo10ca]

The Shen 5x7 uses Sinar boards but comes with a Linhof adapter.

You've got a big budget.

If it was me I'd look for a big fast 300mm or 360mm. In bargain grade from KEH then can be had very cheap. I bought an Orbit-S 300mm for less then $150 awhile back. But even a Fuji-W won't be much more then $300 maybe $400. The thing is these things are big and heavy. You'll likely want a Sinar board for them and the #3 shutter.

The Fuji 450mm is tiny on the other hand. I'd watch for a cheap big lens and use the savings on the Fuji 450mm F/12.5

Thanks Nick- that is the way I am leaning. The problem with the copal 3 shutter and lens is the size and weight. I generally backpack all my stuff. That being said, trying to decide between 300mm and 450mm has me bamboozled, so I'm looking at a cheaper 300mm to assess perspective. I'm starting to think that one lens is not going to meet all my needs, and will have to buy one now, one later. As for the budget, well, the less I spend, the more I can learn at foto3. I'm probably going to have to spread the costs out.

[Nick_3536]

You don't have to take all your lenses all the time. But it's not just the weight. Some of the fast lenses take fairly large filters. The Fuji fast lenses aren't too bad but you're still looking at 82 or 86mm filters

[timbo10ca]

You don't have to take all your lenses all the time. But it's not just the weight. Some of the fast lenses take fairly large filters. The Fuji fast lenses aren't too bad but you're still looking at 82 or 86mm filters

The Fuji-C 300 and 450 actually take a 52mm filter (I believe), as does the Nikkor-M 300. Not sure about the Nikkor-M 450 though. I believe it's in the realm of 67mm. I like to take all my lenses along because I do anything from macro to wide landscapes in a day of shooting.

Right now I feel like my next lens I buy is going to determine the focal lengths I end up with. I would prefer to spend less and have fewer lenses. I think it's a waste to get lenses that are too close in focal length. I have a 180mm, so I am wondering what people would put in their 5x7 kit to finish it off- a 240, 360, and 450, or just the 300 and 450? I can see benefits to going both ways.

Just for interest sake, any opinions on the 360mm APO Ronar (I found one in a copal 3 electronic shutter).

[jnantz]

I use two 360ish lenses, one fast and one portable.

The fast and bright one is a 360mm f:5.6 Symmar Convertible, in a Compound 5 shutter. Nice lens, but too big to carry.

The portable one is a 355mm f:9 G-Claron, in a Compound 3 shutter. This one will fit on a Technika lens board.

i have a 210 / 370 symmar convertible .
and the 370 works well on my 5x7 ...
it is kind of heavy though ...

[Nick_3536]

The Fuji-C 300 and 450 actually take a 52mm filter (I believe), as does the Nikkor-M 300. Not sure about the Nikkor-M 450 though. I believe it's in the realm of 67mm. I like to take all my lenses along because I do anything from macro to wide landscapes in a day of shooting.


But the now relatively cheap used fast studio lenses are much bigger.

The problem with trying to find the perfect lens is we change. I've ended up with three 300mm lenses. The lightest covers 8x10 with a bit of movement. The two bigger ones will cover 11x14 when and if I ever get an 11x14 camera. Plus one was cheaper then the cost of the shutter alone. Then at some point you find a deal and decide on a special purpose lens set.

I think with an 180 I'd look wide. So either a 90mm or 105mm or a 120mm. I'd skip the 240mm. The light longer lenses tend to be the Fuji or Nikon 300mm and the Fuji 450mm F/12.5. So that basically rules out the 360mm point. Of course at some point you'll find a cheap 150mm or 210mm and might want to add that.

[timbo10ca]

You're saying what I was thinking- the final lens in this series will be a wide one in the range you suggested. That will come laaaaaaater ;) I appreciate your input on this. If I see a 450mm Nikkor-M or Fuji-C for the right price, I may get it and work backwards. Is the doubled weight and larger filter size of the Nikkor worth the extra speed over the Fuji?



But the now relatively cheap used fast studio lenses are much bigger.

The problem with trying to find the perfect lens is we change. I've ended up with three 300mm lenses. The lightest covers 8x10 with a bit of movement. The two bigger ones will cover 11x14 when and if I ever get an 11x14 camera. Plus one was cheaper then the cost of the shutter alone. Then at some point you find a deal and decide on a special purpose lens set.

I think with an 180 I'd look wide. So either a 90mm or 105mm or a 120mm. I'd skip the 240mm. The light longer lenses tend to be the Fuji or Nikon 300mm and the Fuji 450mm F/12.5. So that basically rules out the 360mm point. Of course at some point you'll find a cheap 150mm or 210mm and might want to add that.

[Nick_3536]

In 5x7? I'd say no. The Nikon is more of an interest to the big camera shooters. IIRC it covers a bit more then the Fuji. The Fuji will handle an 11x14 but I don't remember quite how much the Nikon does more.

[timbo10ca]

Thanks, good to know. If I ever went to 8x10, either would be fine then.


In 5x7? I'd say no. The Nikon is more of an interest to the big camera shooters. IIRC it covers a bit more then the Fuji. The Fuji will handle an 11x14 but I don't remember quite how much the Nikon does more.