Scanner Co-op

[Dave Jeffery]

I'll throw out these ideas incase there is a way we can work out a collective solution to have high quality scans made at the best possible price point with our precious time considered.

1. We would all like to have an Iq Smart 3 to work with.
2. If a number of people kicked in $1,000 it would be easy to buy one.
3. We are all busy and it would make sense for all of us to invest in
training a couple of people that could learn to be expert scanners, work cheaply,
and focus all their attention on that one task.
4. People work for less money in other countries and the opportunity to learn
to do this type of work and have a fairly consistent level of business and income
would be a great opportunity for a lot of people.
5. If we set a private venture it could become a tax write off if it didn't make a profit.
6. A factory is not needed, just a reasonable work space for scanning with
computerized shipping and recieving.
7. A few of the millions of people moving from the country in China to the cities may be more than happy to do this in a large apartment or home. Someone may know people in places like China that would love to have the work and income.
8. Once an initial investment is made one would imagine that an aditional cost per scan would be needed to balance usage costs, and scanning fees would be needed to cover monthly wages, labor and overhead.
9. For longer turn around times centralized bulk shipping from one location would be more cost effective.

Obviously these are just basic ideas but I wonder if a number of us could hash out a workable solution? If I threw $1,000 at well thought out joint venture and it failed I wouldn't care. Why send things off to a business which needs to turn a profit rather than setting one up?

Sending off precious images to someone with a vested interest in the proper care and handling of the media may be wiser that dealing with a reputable business that inadvertantly hires careless hourly employees.

If a number of people are interested we basically need to put together a joint business plan. Perhaps someone with a lot of business experience could suggest a realistic business model.

Any thoughts?, ideas? flame away!

[Dave Jeffery]

This is still a work in progess and I'm looking at possibly setting up a scanner in the Korat area in Thailand where my fellow employees mother works for $3 a day. The equipment would be safe with his family and there are a number of computer savvy people looking for part time to full time work.

The other option is Costa Rica where a buddy that I did a co-op on a boat in Hawaii with now lives. The country has a high literacy rate and wages are $5,000 t0 $9,000 a year depending on the area, and it's a short flight away.

One would imagine that there would be a very long training period involved and things move slowly in other countries. With a lot of initial patience eventually a smooth operation could be up and running. I was impressed with the electronics engineers I worked with when I worked treasure diving in the Gulf of Thailand and someone should be able to learn to understand the photography aspect given enough time and proper guidance.

A pipe dream maybe but I did a very fun co-op on a boat in Hawaii which leads me to belive this is possible.

Have Fun!

[Asher Kelman]

This is still a work in progess and I'm looking at possibly setting up a scanner in the Korat area in Thailand where my fellow employees mother works for $3 a day. The equipment would be safe with his family and there are a number of computer savvy people looking for part time to full time work.

The other option is Costa Rica where a buddy that I did a co-op on a boat in Hawaii with now lives. The country has a high literacy rate and wages are $5,000 t0 $9,000 a year depending on the area, and it's a short flight away.

One would imagine that there would be a very long training period involved and things move slowly in other countries. With a lot of initial patience eventually a smooth operation could be up and running. I was impressed with the electronics engineers I worked with when I worked treasure diving in the Gulf of Thailand and someone should be able to learn to understand the photography aspect given enough time and proper guidance.

A pipe dream maybe but I did a very fun co-op on a boat in Hawaii which leads me to belive this is possible.

Have Fun!

I wonder what the volume of work would be?

I am thinking of doing this with an Eversmart Pro, but going with a brand new OS X capable machine sounds great!

Asher

[Scott Rosenberg]

dave,

i am not trying to be curt, and please take no umbrage by this, but what you are suggesting is going to be, while a great idea and one i would love to see get some traction, incredibly difficult to establish and even more difficult to sustain.

have you any experience working in SE Asia? it's a very different part of the world. i am not saying that this venture is not possible, but to be perfectly frank with you, after getting a huge dose of working in Asia for the last 18 months, this is not something i would attempt - and i've got scores of connections throughout the region.

forget about the obvious challenges of getting the hardware up and running and then establishing a system of receiving film, completing the scans, and then returning the film and media, but what about training? or volume... how many people are going to send their originals to Asia to be scanned by a novice? how many scans would it take to make the venture fiscally sensible - both on the part of the folks laying out the money to set such a venture up and for those doing the scanning? are you going to fly over there to put your system in place and do the training? the cost of that trip alone would buy you lots and lots of professionally done scans.

scanning is not something that you can just pick up... getting results that make the effort of large format capture worthwhile is as much an art as recording the image in the first place.

as disastrous as it could turn out, i think you'd have better luck getting 4 people of a group of 5 to each throw in $1k and have the non-paying person in the group maintain the scanner and complete the scans. for his or her troubles, they don't add $$, or pay a reduced amount. there is some agreement on the minimum volume expected and the turn-around time.

do you think that sounds like it could go very badly? doing this in a foreign country makes it orders of magnitude more difficult.

that said, it's an interesting idea, and i hope you prove me wrong!

good luck

[walter23]

This is the weirdest thing I've heard on a photography forum yet, and I've heard some pretty weird stuff! And I thought cheap foreign labour was just for tennis shoes and christmas cracker novelties.

[Greg Lockrey]

This is the weirdest thing I've heard on a photography forum yet, and I've heard some pretty weird stuff! And I thought cheap foreign labour was just for tennis shoes and christmas cracker novelties.

What do you mean? Kroger sells canvas prints (and they are technically very good) cheaper than I can buy the materials for. They're made in China. Chances are that computer your using has a lot of SE Asia components in it too.

[Capocheny]

Dave,

As much as I respect your entrepreneurial spirit (nice to see that it's still alive and well) I must agree with Scott's assessment of the situation. I think you'll have some huge and insurmountable challenges to overcome. But, as they say, "if there's a will, there's a way."

Like Scott, I'd also suggest getting a group of guys together for the investment... but, instead of having the one person do the scans for the group, another method is to allocate blocks of scanning time to each participant. With regards to supplies, as each person does their scan they should mark down the amount of materials used. Higher volume users should fund an amount more (proportionate to the amounts used.)

[Sounds like a multi-user vacation home sales plan! :)]

I also wish you the best of luck in your venture.


Walter,

"And I thought cheap foreign labour was just for tennis shoes and christmas cracker novelties."

You're kidding right? You REALLY CAN'T be remotely serious about your comment, are you? Or, are you...

Yikes!

Cheers

[walter23]

It seems like kind of a low volume enterprise, is all.

[Dave Jeffery]

Scott,

Thank you so much for your concern as this is the type of feedback that I'm looking for.

When I worked in Singapore I was shocked at how good some engineers were and how other people had absolutely no common sense whatsoever. One guy dumped fuel into one of our boat bilges and then just pumped the bilge water, dirt, fuel and seawater back into the fuel tank! The electronics engineer we had onboard could fix anything- fax machines, the huge old GPS units, sidescan sonar gear, computers, communications equipment etc. During diving ops only expats operated the air supplies and decompression chambers. Findng the right person is the key and many people would be very willing to score a nice clean steady job and income like this. It's a clean and not physically challenging job. There are smart people in foriegn contries as you can tell by looking at anything electronic in your home.

The concept is to get a group of people that are willing to commit $1,000 dollars to this co-op. Then find someone overseas that is computer savvy enough to learn how to scan on a flatbed scanner so in say 3 months or more from the initial set up. We can then Fed Ex our film to them, they make the scan and send back a file, the scan is deemed to be OK or not OK, and when a satisfactory result is accomplished the film is returned. The person(s) that will be trained to do this will clearly understand that the scanning needs to be repeated until the desired results are accomplished. This is an advantage over sending things off to a business somewhere.

Life is much slower in other countries and what we learn by constant exposure to technology just doesn't happen in many places. That being said Asia is a great area for people well versed with electronics.

Having a very clear understanding of the long initial training that will be needed is a must. We would be very lucky to find the right person initially. I think I could find out how much computer experience someone has in an hour or so by working with software and taking a computer apart with them. The amount of time this takes for a person that will take on the scanning to get up and running will be the hardest thing for many people to understand but I believe there will be enough people willing to join in. People on this site constantly say how challenging learning the scanning process is and we can expect to extend that by a large margin. I'd rather collectively pay someone else to learn this who would likely be very happy to have the opportunity to set themselves up with a lot of good paying part time work, or a full time career. If the wages offered are good then the equipment and learning to scan becomes the workers golden goose. Again, a woman my friend knows earns $3 per day. We would have to pay more that that.

One would expect that there will be problems and that the scanner would need to be shipped for repair at some point if an electronics engineer is not available in the area.
Fed Ex regularily services the areas of interest and both Thailand and Costa Rica are very stable countires. The working area needed for the equipment is one room and shipping and recieving small packages is simple.

I'm just looking for an excuse to go back to Thailand again as I love the people and the country so the cost of going there just gets built into a holiday. The initial cost may seem high but what about the costs of having scans made five years from now? I don't think large format film will go away soon.

Again this is a concept and work in progress and many questions still remain. I'm glad people are starting to question this.

I have yet to figure out the balance of how many people need to be involved to keep the scanner in use on a regular basis and if during slow times other work can be handled. One must expect that after prime shooting seasons like the fall that there will be backlogs.

Fed Ex, immigration, international travel and the internet make this a very small connected world.

The capability of the scanner operator is the key to great scans. Time is money and someone that can be given time to learn this and work cheaply by our standards will benefit a number of us over the LONG term. People that are really concerned about $1,000 should probably just ignore all this. Yes, there will be unforseen problems and costs.


More feedback please.

[Asher Kelman]

It seems like kind of a low volume enterprise, is all.

Somehow, this is tough to imagine unless one has friend one would lend one's best lenses to! Scanning for business is best done by a trained tech under supervision. I would not send scans for a client to a place where someone's mother's sister is doing this between grinding corn or milking the goat! :)

For low volume and personal artistic values, scanning requires more effort.

To me used scanners or careful work with combining scans from the ~$700 scanners is more practical. I personally have no problem setting up one machine to run OS 9 to run an older top quality flatbed scanner. But then I wouldn't want to have to mess around with more than a few others and risk them each making their own settings!

Asher

[Dave Jeffery]

"another method is to allocate blocks of scanning time to each participant."

Scanning is an art each person would need a lot of time and the equipment to learn? What is our time worth? I would love to be wrong about this.

[Dave Jeffery]

"I think you'll have some huge and insurmountable challenges to overcome."

I'll agree that you may be right and if you can list the challenges I may find some that kill the idea. I really appreciate your input.

[Dave Jeffery]

"forget about the obvious challenges of getting the hardware up and running"

Set it up here first and then ship it and expect a few challenges. There are direct flights to Bankok from LA and if Costa Rica makes more sense then thats not so bad?

[Dave Jeffery]

have you any experience working in SE Asia? it's a very different part of the world.

Yes, and the dumb things that happen thorugh sheer lack of common sense is a big shock to the system. Your concern is very valid.

"i am not saying that this venture is not possible, but to be perfectly frank with you, after getting a huge dose of working in Asia for the last 18 months, this is not something i would attempt - and i've got scores of connections throughout the region."

If I had to find a number of people to make this happen I would consider it a long shot. The chance of finding one or maybe two people that understand computers and that can learn to work with software for good compensation by local standards seems possible. As someone else posted this will not be a high volume operation but there needs to be enough work.

With your recent experience in the region do you think it's possible to find one or two good people in a city like Nakorn Ratchasima in Thailand, which is the second largest city, and that has a university geared toward technical training? Again the wages would have to be good to attract and retain good people. I agree that finding the right person will be challenging.

I really respect and appreciate your advice.

[Dave Jeffery]

I don't need to own this project by the way. If feel you have better ideas please feel free to speak up.

I have a gut feeling that this is going to happen in some way. A number of us will throw some money in, we'll take some beatings along the way, some people will want out..........

We need to have some fun with this and have a few good war stories to tell when it's all said and done.

[Ted Harris]

Dave,

1) Working in Asia is one thing, running a foreign owned business there is another. For a number of years I was on the Board of a company that did the latter. There were many very very difficult problems and we eventually dissolved the business, in large part because of labor and management span of control issues.

2) Do some research, there are already several companies offering such services at very reasonable prices. Most that I know of with operations in India. One company works both in the US and India (JaincoTech). Some of the scanning done here and some there with data transmitted via T1 lines. The only problem is that when you want or require anything beyond basic scans your costs and time will go up as it is way more difficult to do business on a phone across an ocean or two when you want corrections and adjustments made.

3) Scanning requires a lot of skill. How are you going to run this company and maintain quality control if you are not skilled in the operation of the machine or machines they are running (maybe you are)?

Bottom line, if you are looking for a business opportunity then go for it. As one photographer who is in the high end scanning business (I do a limited amount of work for others when my time permits) I would welcome others who take the same approach I take. The capital costs involved in what you are proposing are small indeed to start a business.

OTOH, if you are looking for relatively inexpensive scans they are available now, just do some more looking.

If you want more information on getting an IQSmart3 in Asia contact me via email please.

[jetcode]

We need to have some fun with this and have a few good war stories to tell when it's all said and done.

Business is the last place I want to experience war stories. Usually money and attitudes are involved and usually with some form of loss.

[Dave Jeffery]

Business is the last place I want to experience war stories. Usually money and attitudes are involved and usually with some form of loss.

That's an appropriate response.

I should have written that I think we can have some fun with a co-op if it's looks like it won't be overly challenging and maybe some travelling in the region would also be an interesting experience as well. "War stories" is an expression that a few of my friends use so I'm not surprised by your response.

I agree with a lot that Ted says as well but I was hoping that a one or two person operation might be possible and I was hoping some others might have suggested a few similar possibilities.

I did a co-op on a small boat in Hawaii where a number of us threw in $1,000.00 and the idea was that the boat could be sunk by anyone, any day, and we wouldn't care. The boat lasted a while and although I ended up doing most of the work on it we did some great diving, we all are still good friends, and we have a lot of fond memories of the experience.

Scott and Ted asked about my experience in Thailand and my last trip there was another somewhat expensive adventure treasure diving, which is another risky venture one throws money at with a high chance of loss, for a few interesting stories to tell.

There was an article about the pirates that are around Sinapore, which we had to watch out for, in the this months National Geographic (October 2007 pg 126).

I put together a very simple web page about the short treasure diving trip we did as a number of friends read National Geo and are kind of interested as well.

It's totally off topic so I used my own bandwidth. If you are totally bored here's the link. http://members.cox.net/zzing/index.html

I'm still waiting for more information from Thailand but I think Ted is right that there are a few too many challenges unless the people there are connected.

Who knows. I wish it were easier as I hear that the results from scanning companies are not always what people wish for and I didn't want to do my own scanning if someone that would be happy with much less compensation could learn to do it.

Thanks everyone!

[Randy H]

Find a retiree in FL that loves LF and set it up there. Does several things. Gets your scanner going, gives the retiree purpose, gives the ability for more to "go see" the operation, quicker turn-around times due to shipping time, less chance of "lost in transit" as opposed to overeas shipping, more stringent "accountability" available, ongoing training for the "next" person, readily avilable techies if problems with equip, etc, etc.
I would agree that if overseas, Thai would probably be the preferred, having worked alongside several. But why not look at home? SS recipients, on fixed income, unable to earn above $XX... loves photography ???

[Dave Jeffery]

Thanks Randy!

That's a great idea for a lot of reasons!

How about a retired Aztek scanner repair person :)

- more people would be interested in a co-op in the US
- flights are relatively short if needed
- someone close to the Aztek facility would be a big bonus
- door to door shipping with and account is easy
- retirees are usually home a lot
- a used drum scanner would be purchased since time is not an issue and only a small number of partners would be needed and that might produce about the right amount of work for a retiree - may be able to scan when in the mood
- it would not be a business, no deadlines, pressure
- larger reusable shipping materials and labels could be used as wieght and size are less of an issue domestically, no hassle shipping and recieving. (printfile pages in padded boxes), less consumables needed.
- no import, customs or international copyright concerns and potential impounds/ bribery problems
- ideally close to one of the partners for support
- less language issues if technical consultation is needed
- partners still benefit from pooling resources to give one person a lot of more experience scanning and photogs time can be spent shooting pictures instead
- former photographer would enjoy looking at the very best pictures from a small pool of people
- scans can be redone until desired result without high re-shipping costs
- larger and more reliable bandwidth available most places
- SOMEONE ON THIS FORUM MAY KNOW A GOOD CANDIDATE!

Great Randy!
It's responses like your's that make my embarrasment of throwing out ideas well worth the effort.