Self published books

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

Has anyone here ever self published their own book of photography? If so, can you give me the details, i.e. how many pages did you make the book, how big was the book, how many copies did you print, etc.? Do you sell it through your own website, to friends or does there exist some kind of independent photography book site, kind of like photo-eye, except for independent publishers?

[Kirk Gittings]

CHACO BODY 1991, about the Anasazi ruins at Chaco Canyon NM, with poet VB Price, designed by ArtSpace (Bill Peterson), financed by portfolio sales (the Albuquerque Museum, UNM, the University of Arizona and 2 private), 86 pages, 24 images, 5 poems, duotone, 8 1/2"x 10 !/2". 1000 hardcover, 3000 soft cover, distributed the first 5 years by the University of New Mexico Press. Thereafter we took the remaining copies back and marketed them through my exhibits, website and later events. It became a traveling exhibit that toured the SW, a 30+ time performance piece with the poet, and a local PBS special that aired nationally a few times. I have like 300 left. Enormously successful on many levels (it is mentioned in modern histories of New Mexico), it was an unbelievable amount of work and I vowed never to do it again.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

CHACO BODY 1991, about the Anasazi ruins at Chaco Canyon NM, with poet VB Price, designed by ArtSpace (Bill Peterson), financed by portfolio sales (the Albuquerque Museum, UNM, the University of Arizona and 2 private), 86 pages, 24 images, 5 poems, duotone, 8 1/2"x 10 !/2". 1000 hardcover, 3000 soft cover, distributed the first 5 years by the University of New Mexico Press. Thereafter we took the remaining copies back and marketed them through my exhibits, website and later events. It became a traveling exhibit that toured the SW, a 30+ time performance piece with the poet, and a local PBS special that aired nationally a few times. I have like 300 left. Enormously successful on many levels (it is mentioned in modern histories of New Mexico), it was an unbelievable amount of work and I vowed never to do it again.

So basically you paid for your own book to be printed and published? I wonder how many other photographers self publish their own books? What percentage of the market is independent books vs. book publishing companies as seen here on PhotoEye (http://www.photoeye.com/templates/PubShowCase_home.cfm)?

[Kirk Gittings]

So basically you paid for your own book to be printed and published?-I said financed by portfolio sales (the Albuquerque Museum, UNM, the University of Arizona and 2 private). Yes, I sold portfolios of my work specifically to raise funds to publish the book. And I forgot, I presold a limited edition print with signed book also.


I couldn't tell you what the percentages are. I know a few people who have done it successfully, Tillman Crane's Touchstones etc., and many more who flushed money down the drain. By the way your link to Photo Eye doesn't work. So I have no idea what the point there was.

[tim atherton]

So basically you paid for your own book to be printed and published? I wonder how many other photographers self publish their own books? What percentage of the market is independent books vs. book publishing companies as seen here on PhotoEye (http://www.photoeye.com/templates/PubShowCase_home.cfm)?Wouldn't a photographer paying for the printing of his/her own book to be published be called vanity press?



like Lee Friedlander you mean? Or Stephen Shore Or Ralph Gibson? Or John Gossage? Tilman Crane? Michael Smith? Alec Soth?

"Vanity Press" is really a (somewhat derogatory) term that comes from the world of writers (and poets).

By contrast, there's a fairly long and honourable tradition of artists (Ed Ruscha in the 60's, but actually going quite a ways back before that) and photographers self publishing - especially in small editions.

If you subscribe to the Photoeye magazine, there's been a several part series on self publishing recently - the current issue focuses on Hiroshi Watanabe

Some have only published their own work. Others have expanded their own person imprint to publish work of a few others (usually in order to help cover the costs of their own books).

Oft times, a major grant or prize will be used as the main source of funding to publish a project - I know that's how Frieldander got kick started with some of his early books.

And of course they often end up being very valuable - an early one of Friedlanders books can sell for at least three or four thousand dollars. And copy of the first self-published version of Soth's Sleeping by the Mississippi book goes for close to the same I think

[tim atherton]

So basically you paid for your own book to be printed and published?

There's also a fairly healthy tradition of photographers who consider the photo-book to be the most important or best way in which photographs are presented - more so than the gallery wall and the "fine print" (in some ways going back to at least American Photographs - and probably much earlier - through to John Gossage and Martin Parr and Gerry Badger)

So self-publishing in that context makes even more sense (when you consider many photographers can equally spend a small fortune putting together framed prints to show on walls for two or three exhibitions - few of which will show, say, 100 prints)

[QT Luong]

Here's another data point: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/ghana.shtml

Note that he says that even if he sells out the 3,000 copies, not even the trip expenses will be covered. And this from a photographer who has already published a bunch of books, is able to do the design himself, and running a publishing company.

[Frank Petronio]

But, frankly, that is such an unappealing book on several levels (the cover to start with)... you have to allow for quality playing a role too.

(ducks)

[Aender Brepsom]

Just for the fun of it: I made my own DIY photo book with one of these labs that offer free layout software and print your book afterwards in the exact number of copies you want to. You may laugh, but I just printed 30 hardcover copies to accompany one of my exhibitions. They were all sold. I have not made any money out of it, but was proud enough that anybody could want to buy a book with my pictures. It was a nice experience that I might try again.

[paulr]

A couple of years ago at the Photo NY show there was a panel discussion about this. Several people who had self published discussed their experiences.

I got a few of things out of it. First, it's a lot of work to get the book done. And second, it's an extraordinary amount of work to sell it. Those who distributed the books themselves (I think all but one) cautioned about printing too many. They all said selling the first 500 or so was pretty straightforward. Friends, friends of friends, family, contacts in the photo world, anyone who's ever bought work from you, etc. ... that's all the low hanging fruit. After them, it gets tough!

My friend Anne has driven cartons of her book all over Europe and the U.S., visiting bookstores, making consignment arrangements. She carts it to fairs like Fotofest and Arles. She spends weekends on her knees packing books into boxes for UPS to fill orders.

If you go this route, just know what you're getting into!

I liked Stephen Shore's recent approach. He made a series of eight or so Apple iPhoto books, in editions of 20. They were great! Small, modest, decently printed and beautifully bound. Simple, simple design. Each one its own series. Total cost probably in the neighborhood of $50 a book ... much more than a commercial press, but something you can do for a small edition artist's book. There are lots of other digital press options for this also.

[Brian Ellis]

I've participated in lengthy discussions with Tillman Crane and Ron Rosenstock about self-publishing. I've talked a little with John Sexton about it. Those discussions convinced me that unless I had an extra $50,000 or so sitting around, and wanted to devote a significant portion of my life to producing and, more importantly, selling, the book, it's something only for a person who is making a serious career out of photograpy (i.e. it isn't something for amateurs or would-be career photographers). When someone as successful as John Sexton says that it's a good tax writeoff (i.e. he suffers a loss from his books that can be offset against other income), or when someone as good as Ray McSavaney is still carrying his book around in his van 10 years after the book was published, it's more than a little discouraging. Some of this, however, was before all the digital self-publishing stuff came along, I've never looked into that and don't know how it would affect the equation. It surely would cut way down on the $50,000 (a number mentioned by both Tillman Crane and Ron Rosenstock as what they paid out of pocket) but presumably wouldn't help with selling the book.

[tim atherton]

Some of this, however, was before all the digital self-publishing stuff came along, I've never looked into that and don't know how it would affect the equation. It surely would cut way down on the $50,000 (a number mentioned by both Tillman Crane and Ron Rosenstock as what they paid out of pocket) but presumably wouldn't help with selling the book.

One possible advantage now that wasn't available in the past - and I've no idea how advantageous it actually is (though I've read a couple of articles where the authors seem to have benefited) - is that you can now get the book listed and sell through Amazon.

There are, as I recall, several ways of doing it, but they do have a programme geared towards these small self-publishing ventures, although that's not the only way.

[Ed Richards]

The biggest change is the on demand printing. Before this, not only did you have to pay for the books up front, you had to warehouse them, and manage them. If you look at PDN or Rangerfinder, you will find an entire industry devoted to high quality low volume photography books, AKA the modern wedding album. While I have not tried any of these, they look like they are worth exploring, esp. if you want a fancy binding.

You still have to deal with layout, but you can do that yourself or get it done electronically fairly cheaply, and can print off a PDF. Bottomline seems to be that you could really reduce the upfront costs, but that still leaves you with distribution. At least you could fail much more economically than in the past.

BTW, this is not just for photography books. I have authored and co-authored several books on law and health policy, for publishers like Little Brown and Oxford, gotten great reviews, and made about 2 cents an hour for my work. I might have lost money on one because I let the publisher hire out the index and that came out of the royalities. Writing books is a high risk crap shoot for everyone. At least your unsold photograhy books will be pretty.:-)

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

Maybe I'm not getting it. I just got a quote for $40,000 for a 9 x 12, 96 page book (high end, probably between $30-$37,500) I'm trying to help this photographer with. Selling at $65 a piece, he'll make $25 profit per book, minus the shipping costs. I just don't understand what's so difficult about this...

[Ed Richards]

> I just don't understand what's so difficult about this

Getting someone to buy them is what is difficult. How are going to do advertising and distribution? What will it cost? That is the hard part in this game. If your photographer is a household name whose books will instantly sell, then there are no problems at all.:-)

For me, for example, $65 is a big problem. I think I paid that much for one photobook, which was signed by a significant name in the business, and it was a really big book. I also paid a little more than that for CB retrospective, which is HUGE book. Otherwise, I tend to balk at books over about $35, especially those which are not a good buy by the pound, which leaves a profit of - $10.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

> I just don't understand what's so difficult about this

Getting someone to buy them is what is difficult. How are going to do advertising and distribution? What will it cost? That is the hard part in this game. If your photographer is a household name whose books will instantly sell, then there are no problems at all.:-)

He's already got calendars, puzzles distributed in B&N, amazon.com, borders... you name it. He's done posters, been featured all over the world, has been featured by dozens of galleries at major art shows... yeah, he's well known. He's done everything except publish his own book. A book of his photography would sell like hotcakes (where did that term come from anyway?) Distribution costs are unknown... he would advertise the book, I assume, on his site, but I don't know... haven't gotten that far.

[tim atherton]

Maybe I'm not getting it. I just got a quote for $40,000 for a 9 x 12, 96 page book (high end, probably between $30-$37,500) I'm trying to help this photographer with. Selling at $65 a piece, he'll make $25 profit per book, minus the shipping costs. I just don't understand what's so difficult about this...

Not to sound pessimistic...

I'm not sure what your figures are because you didn't say how many copies, but if he's planning selling what something like 1000 copies directly? With no booksellers or distributors?

A good number of the current new books listed on say Photoeye from any one of the well known photo book publishers would probably be printed in an edition of 2000 or 2500 copies at most (some less). Any of those books that actually sold 2000 copies would be a resounding success.

One well known book publisher once told me that only about 1 in 6 photography books makes a profit.

And that's sold via the mainstream distribution channels through bookstores, museums and so on.

And add in your promotion budget - maybe 10,000 at least

So unless they have a real hot seller on their hands (cowboys or sex - or both...), he's going to have stock sitting in the basement for 4 or 5 years at least

And if he sells via bookstores and such, he's not going to be getting the $65.00 per copy. And via a distributor (which is the only way many booksellers will sell the book) you are talking about them taking it at a cost of retail less about 65%

It's the same old message - magnified these days because the first part - layout and printing is relatively easy and getting easier by the day. The distribution and sales is the hard part to make it a success. (or even recoup your costs).

But I'll certainly be interested to hear how your photographer does.

(check out Lenswork 60 for a good article on photo book publishing)

[Richard Raymond]

Interesting discussion. For general self publishing I would recommend creating an ebook and selling that at a reasonable price...say $5 to $10 depending on number of images. Once the initial design and production work is done there is relatively little overhead for additional copies and sales. Using Acrobat one can use low res images and lock them to the document. Offer to sell prints or even an on demand printed version for some price. This approach would also allow you to experiement with different ideas as to subject, theme, technique and perhaps reach a wider market with your vision that with traditional publishing and distribution methods.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

Not to sound pessimistic...

I'm not sure what your figures are because you didn't say how many copies, but if he's planning selling what something like 1000 copies directly? With no booksellers or distributors?

A good number of the current new books listed on say Photoeye from any one of the well known photo book publishers would probably be printed in an edition of 2000 or 2500 copies at most (some less). Any of those books that actually sold 2000 copies would be a resounding success.

One well known book publisher once told me that only about 1 in 6 photography books makes a profit.

And that's sold via the mainstream distribution channels through bookstores, museums and so on.

And add in your promotion budget - maybe 10,000 at least

So unless they have a real hot seller on their hands (cowboys or sex - or both...), he's going to have stock sitting in the basement for 4 or 5 years at least

And if he sells via bookstores and such, he's not going to be getting the $65.00 per copy. And via a distributor (which is the only way many booksellers will sell the book) you are talking about them taking it at a cost of retail less about 65%

It's the same old message - magnified these days because the first part - layout and printing is relatively easy and getting easier by the day. The distribution and sales is the hard part to make it a success. (or even recoup your costs).

But I'll certainly be interested to hear how your photographer does.

(check out Lenswork 60 for a good article on photo book publishing)

It's unknown how well a book of his would do. He's never had one before. He's done calendars, puzzles, posters that have all sold out extremely well... so people LOVE his photography, that's not the concern. The concern is how do we get distribution to the bookstores, how many copies would they order, what would the printing costs of those be, etc. And if he didn't distribute this on his website, how would he advertise his book and get people to buy it.... there's really no place, except for magazines and admittedly there's only so much magazines can do (if an advertiser sells 10 copies of the book it's an amazing success and they love you for life), to really advertise self published, independent books. Which is odd, because it's such a hot market. I'd have to go through my rather large stack of LW copies to find #60...I think I'll download a PDF preview of that issue and see if I can find it on there.

I wonder how these big book publishing companies do what they do and make money. Phaidon, Chronicle, Aperture, etc.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

Interesting discussion. For general self publishing I would recommend creating an ebook and selling that at a reasonable price...say $5 to $10 depending on number of images. Once the initial design and production work is done there is relatively little overhead for additional copies and sales. Using Acrobat one can use low res images and lock them to the document. Offer to sell prints or even an on demand printed version for some price. This approach would also allow you to experiement with different ideas as to subject, theme, technique and perhaps reach a wider market with your vision that with traditional publishing and distribution methods.

People can already visit his website and see dozens and dozens of his images for free. No sense in selling content you can get for free.

[tim atherton]

Check out the Amazon bestsellers of and about photography (this is just photography related books)

the first one that is anything like a monograph type of book comes in at

#21
A Photographer's Life: 1990-2005 by Annie Leibovitz (celebrities)

after that it's

#36 with the Ansel Adams 2008 Wall Calendar by Ansel Adams

then

#41 Material World: A Global Family Portrait by Peter Menzel

and

#46 A Book of Photographs from Lonesome Dove by Bill Wittliff. (cowboys)

or

#62
The Big Book of Breasts by Dian Hanson (sex)

You don't really get anything approaching a sort of photographers monograph until you hit

#118 with
Fashion Magazine by Alec Soth by Alec Soth (which is only really up there because it's fashion,, not Soth)

and not really until you hit Soth again at

#123 on the charts
Alec Soth: Dog Days Bogota by Alec Soth (which isn't bad for a book that's not actually hit the shelves yet...)

[tim atherton]

He's already got calendars, puzzles distributed in B&N, amazon.com, borders... you name it. He's done posters, been featured all over the world, has been featured by dozens of galleries at major art shows... yeah, he's well known.

But presumably he's not distributing those things through the major booksellers himself? For most of those (apart from something like the self-publishing programme at Amazon), a distributor is going to want about 65% of his retail price. Even on the Amazon programme, I think it's a fairly high percentage.



He's done everything except publish his own book. A book of his photography would sell like hotcakes (where did that term come from anyway?) Distribution costs are unknown... he would advertise the book, I assume, on his site, but I don't know... haven't gotten that far.

If that's actually the case, a major publisher would be happy to take him on I think, as it would obviously be a profitable book for them too.

[tim atherton]

I wonder how these big book publishing companies do what they do and make money. Phaidon, Chronicle, Aperture, etc.

Phaidon publishes a wide range of books - design, art architecture etc as well as photography. The best sellers support the rest.

Chrionicle again has best selling cookbooks, travelogue books and children's books which no doubt subsidise many of the others.

Aperture seems to run on a kind of shoestring a lot of the time, and like some of the better publishers is, I believe, a not for profit foundation - which is they only real way they can publish the books.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

Phaidon publishes a wide range of books - design, art architecture etc as well as photography. The best sellers support the rest.

Chrionicle again has best selling cookbooks, travelogue books and children's books which no doubt subsidise many of the others.

Aperture seems to run on a kind of shoestring a lot of the time, and like some of the better publishers is, I believe, a not for profit foundation - which is they only real way they can publish the books.

I dunno, Tim. The latest numbers I got was that photography books were tied with self-help books at bookstores today for being so popular. Political books were #1, self help #2 and a very close #3 were photography books. They're white hot right now and only getting hotter. It seems to me with so many book sales going on, some book publishing company out there would've figured out some way to make this happen cost effectively.

Or not...what do I know?

[tim atherton]

I dunno, Tim. The latest numbers I got was that photography books were tied with self-help books at bookstores today for being so popular. Political books were #1, self help #2 and a very close #3 were photography books. They're white hot right now and only getting hotter. It seems to me with so many book sales going on, some book publishing company out there would've figured out some way to make this happen cost effectively.

Or not...what do I know?

if you check out the top 100+ photography books at Amazon, most of them are about photography, not of photography - i.e. photography self-help books - how to use photoshop, how to use your digital camera, how to photograph landscapes or weddings, "perception & imaging", the zen of photography, understanding exposure, and so on - That's what sells and what makes up the top ten sellers and probably 85-90% of the top 100

There wasn't even anything approaching a "photography book" in the current 100 best sellers on Amazon - closest was "The War" which is only really photography by default

[David R Munson]

I have self-published a book of poetry, but not a photo book, though I am working on the early stages of one now that will be based on writings and photos from my travel to Mongolia. It will be small, say 7x7", harcover, perhaps with a single small print tipped-in towards the back à la some of the small books Nazraeli Press has put out (Toshio Shibata's Type 55 comes to mind). I'd say it will be maybe 40 pages in total, likely a little less.

[Michael Rosenberg]

I was considering self publishing a book (of my American Tobacco Factory portfolio) and did extensive research. I have to say that the price goes down with the more books you order, but so do profits. They were willing to underwrite 2/3 of the costs, in exchange for that many books. But in the end they pulled out, which made it financially unfeasible for me to proceed on my own. I was looking at having the book printed to a quality that I would be proud of, and it would have been an enormous effort and cost - I would have had to order 2500 copies from a quality printer (in the US) and that would have cost $45K.

Here are some of the things I learned: It is hard to get the large chains to be interested in selling the books unless it is local interest or a large publishing house is pushing the book. Expect to spend considerable money up front on suitable boxes to ship and postage. You may have to hire someone or contract with a fulfillment business to fill orders if you do not have the time. Expect to ship 20-30 books out for reviews, and don't expect them back. Plan on suitable storage for the books - they will arrive in cartons and on a loading dock somewhere. Amazon will sell your book, but it is order on demand - they will carry one or two copies and then just order more each and every time once those are sold out. Don't forget the price of advertising. Don't forget the price of advertising!! Selling the first 500-1000 is easy, if you are a very well known photographer; the second 1000 would have to be stored somewhere. Etc.

So you would do really well to break even, but the numbers I came up with I would not have come close.

Mike

[Ed Richards]

If you go through any distributor, they are going to price the book at least 2X the cost of the book + the author's royality. So you are looking at a $100 price to net the author $20. As someone else suggested, with this photographer's record, he should be a natural for a commercial publisher, who will take all the financial risks, handle distribution, and pay a royality.

[Richard Raymond]

People can already visit his website and see dozens and dozens of his images for free. No sense in selling content you can get for free.
The design of an ebook is somewhat different than the design of a website. While there may be many images and many threads on a website an ebook tends to focus on a theme or subject and help in the navigation from one image to the next. It will also probably have a narative. As to the price, people will pay for packaging and organization. There is a lot of bottled water being sold. And finally, with an ebook, it can be "pushed" out to other sites including amazon, ebay, etc. where the target market is looking rather than simply sitting back and waiting for folks to arrive at the web site by stumbling on it through ones favorite search engine. My assumption here is that the book will point back to the website and that additional items and services will be for sale or used for self promotion.

[Frank Petronio]

Gee $45K for printing a 96-page book sounds ridiculously high or awfully high faluting. And paying $65 for a THIN 96-pages is insane, even if Daggure himself signed that puppy. At least Helmut Newton's big book had some heft to it.

Figure on 1/3 to the distributor (yourself or a real one); 1/3 to a book store (virtual or real); one third to the printer/publisher. It varies but working with 33% on your side is a good starting place.

Whatever crumbs are left over are the profit. If you're lucky you se those after a couple of years.

And funny thing is everybody calculates selling out the run. You should really calculate the next to worst case scenerai, selling half or less.

What usually happens is you cart around boxes of books for the next ten years of your life.

My bet is with doing a sex book that gets picked up by a real publisher. I wouldn't expect to make a dime from self-publishing.

The exception to this is doing community showcase books, like "Classic Buffalo", which was a coffe-table book of Buffalo's architecture.... Banks and civic booster keep buying it, it has sold almost 40,000 copies in a community of a million people. That sucker made some bucks (and it was 160-pages and cost ~$70K to print at an over-proced local printer (China was HALF), sells for $39.95 and the margin is still slim).

Note that the bank pre-ordered 1000 copies upfront. That is the way to do it.

My friend Willie Osterman did the same thing with his Bologna, Italy book - the local bank bought hundreds on spec to give to high end clients.

I also have 1900 or so of a 2000 run of Frank Lloyd Wright Mausoleum books around if you want some ;-)

Really, I don't see the numbers working for you. Do the book for satisfaction. Take it China (buy a Chamnoix while hanging around). Don't do it unless you can pay cash and not worry about it.

[Michael Graves]

I can vouch for that. 12 published books over the last ten years has netted the same (or less) than a part time job at Burger King. If you're in it for the money, get out now. If you are actually in it because you have something to contribute, then dive on in. I have yet to self-publish anything, but I don't consider self-publishing art, photography or poetry to be a negative thing at all. Just don't expect huge sales.


The biggest change is the on demand printing. Before this, not only did you have to pay for the books up front, you had to warehouse them, and manage them. If you look at PDN or Rangerfinder, you will find an entire industry devoted to high quality low volume photography books, AKA the modern wedding album. While I have not tried any of these, they look like they are worth exploring, esp. if you want a fancy binding.

You still have to deal with layout, but you can do that yourself or get it done electronically fairly cheaply, and can print off a PDF. Bottomline seems to be that you could really reduce the upfront costs, but that still leaves you with distribution. At least you could fail much more economically than in the past.

BTW, this is not just for photography books. I have authored and co-authored several books on law and health policy, for publishers like Little Brown and Oxford, gotten great reviews, and made about 2 cents an hour for my work. I might have lost money on one because I let the publisher hire out the index and that came out of the royalities. Writing books is a high risk crap shoot for everyone. At least your unsold photograhy books will be pretty.:-)

[Brian Ellis]

Maybe I'm not getting it. I just got a quote for $40,000 for a 9 x 12, 96 page book (high end, probably between $30-$37,500) I'm trying to help this photographer with. Selling at $65 a piece, he'll make $25 profit per book, minus the shipping costs. I just don't understand what's so difficult about this...

I suppose the first difficulty for many people is simply coming up with the $40,000 out-of-pocket. Then at $65 per book (which seems to me like a pretty high price unless perhaps he's real well-known) he needs to sell 615 books to recoup his initial costs but that's not counting expenses of sale (shipping, marketing, etc.) and loss of interest income on the $40,000 he fronts (or interest expense if he borrows it).

It's my understanding that a photography book of the kind we're talking about that sells 3,000 copies is considered to be a run-away best seller and that most sell under 1,000 copies (someone more knowledgeable that I am can correct me on this, I don't remember where I heard it). If the person you're helping is someone well-known maybe 615+ copies at $65 each is a sure-thing and if he goes on to sell 3,000 copies then he'll make a very nice profit. But if it was that easy I'd think everyone would be doing it.

[Brian Ellis]

He's already got calendars, puzzles distributed in B&N, amazon.com, borders... you name it. He's done posters, been featured all over the world, has been featured by dozens of galleries at major art shows... yeah, he's well known. He's done everything except publish his own book. A book of his photography would sell like hotcakes (where did that term come from anyway?) Distribution costs are unknown... he would advertise the book, I assume, on his site, but I don't know... haven't gotten that far.

If he's that well known and if his book will sell like hotcakes then he presumably wouldn't be self-publishing at all. Publishers should be lining up to publish it for him.

[Michael A. Smith]

I have not been to the LF Photography Forum in too long a time, but tonight I checked in a saw this thread.

I (and later with my wife Paula Chamlee) have published 9 books of our own and so far 20 books by others--from Edward Weston, Paul Caponigro, Robert Adams (forthcoming in the spring), and a Brett Weston series, to total (or almost total) unknowns—Richard Copeland Miller, Peter Elliston, Alejandro Lopez de Haro R. (from Venezuela), and Hans Bol (from The Netherlands), as well as a number of others. We have a new book by George Tice--Ticetown--coming out in December All this through our publishing company Lodima Press (www.lodimapress.com). We publish these other books not to support the publication of our own books, because most do not make any profit whatsoever. Although we are always hopeful . . .

I have a lot of experience with photography book publishing and Paula and I consult with others about their books. We have consulted with some of those who were mentioned previously.

Much that has been said so far is absolutely correct.

If you want to sell to bookstores--Barnes and Noble, Borders--you need a distributor. If (and it can be a big IF) a distributor will take you on, figure on giving a discount of 65%. If you care about high-quality reproductions, as we do, then the book will cost 50% of the sale price--or more. Sell them all on the first day to the distributor and you lose money. Not exactly a good business model.

So--sell them yourself. Lots of time and effort--and cost. Making a profit? Possible, but not if you are selling to the fine art photography book market. It is a thin market. When we were contemplating publishing our Edward Weston book we spoke with Photo-Eye and asked them how many Edward Weston books they sold when a new one came out. They told me the most they ever sold was 170 books. And that is from the largest seller of fine-art photography books in the world. We went ahead anyhow.

If you are selling to a general market--by selling the subject rather than the photographer's vision--then things change considerably. And a large run and using a distributor is possible.

If you self-publish a book, and if you also care about the quality of the reproductions, the cost, and consequently the price, will be high. Someone wrote that he would never pay $65 for a "thin" 96-page book. Okay, no one has to buy something they think is too highly priced. But here is the reality of the photography book business. Photography books, unless they are printed in China, are expensive to produce. They are very expensive--about 10 or 20 times as expensive to print as a book with text only. Printing costs per unit come down considerably if a lot of copies are printed. Say 1,000 books cost $30,000. Two thousand books will cost only $35,000; 5,000 books will cost only $57,000. The unit costs come way down as the quantity goes up. But the total cost goes up--and then you have to sell them. Taschen prints, I believe, 20,000 copies of most books. Their unit costs are low. They can sell books at what is a bargain price. And because of Taschen's distribution network, the books are profitable the day they are published. That is a good business model, but (1) it requires a lot of capital and (2) it requires a certain compromise about the quality of the reproductions. The reproduction quality is never that high is Taschen's books.

We print in 600-line screen quadtone. The photographers whose books we have published all say that our books of theirs are the best quality reproductions of their work they have ever seen. But is it worth it to go to the effort and expense to get this quality? For us it is, because Paula and I are quality fanatics--in the original prints of our photographs and in the reproduction of our photographs. (When Paula was on press with the first book of George Tice that we published, George was also there. He commented that he had never seen anyone do such careful press checks as Paula was doing--and he had been on press for 14 of his own books and had been on press while numerous other books were printed.) Most people do not notice the difference in the reproduction quality, and of those who notice, most do not care, and would be satisfied with lesser, though still very fine, quality reproductions. But we have the feeling that we will only do things as well as we can conceive of them being done.

So our costs are high, and consequently, the sales price of our books is often high--or else we would go bankrupt very fast--and we have no safety net--most of our books are printed on borrowed money. However, the softbound editions of our Lodima Press Portfolio Books sell for only $24.95 or for $19.95 for subscribers to the entire series.

Oh yes, and if you plan on self-publishing a high-quality book, plan on it taking over your life, almost to the exclusion of everything else. Example of the kinds of decisions one must make: page (or plate) numbers or not, and if on the same page as the photograph are they 3/16, 7/32, or 1/4 inch (could be 7/16, 15/32, or 1/2 inch) from the bottom of the page. One can spend hours on this kind of thing. And still, when it is all finished and the published book is in your hands, you will see mistakes and things that you could have done better.

Anyone who plans on self-publishing can contact me if they would like advice about their project. I am always happy to give serious photographers free advice in an initial phone call. Most get discouraged. Self-publishing is not an easy way to go. But it is viable if one is creative about financing it or if one has very deep pockets.

[Dirk Rösler]

I would agree that your expectations of $25 profit per book is unrealistic. You should calculate that more precisely.

Let's say it will come to half of that - $12.50. Not sure on the number of copies, say 1000?

So you're investing $40K for a potential return of $12K. Obviously we don't know the time frame, but let's say one year.

Given the risks involved, I would not consider that a good investment. But you say your photographer is hot, so perhaps that's wrong. Also we don't know what the real objective is, make money or just "to have a book published" (photographer's dream) and loosing $20K in the process (investor's nightmare). But to be able to say "here's my book" may help make you $30K in the process elsewhere...

[tim atherton]

I have not been to the LF Photography Forum in too long a time, but tonight I checked in a saw this thread.


Thanks for posting Michael

You confirmed at least one thing in my more limited exprience - people are generally suprised at how small the run press run often is on many a high end, "big name" photography book....

btw, I should add the quality on the little (thin) Lodima Press series is gorgeous, for those who haven't seen them

(is that those Belgian fellows?_)

[Michael A. Smith]

Thanks, Tim. Yes, the printing is by Salto--"those Belgian fellows." They are printing few offset books these days (we are fortunate that they are willing to print ours), concentrating mainly on their Platinum Atelier (each print made from 5 separations (negatives) printed in register, and on extraordinary inkjet prints--using a technology that I believe is proprietary to themselves. The owner is not happy unless he is "pushing the laws of physics." (His words.) They also make tri-color carbro prints and carbon prints. They keep a low profile and do not have a web site.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

if you check out the top 100+ photography books at Amazon, most of them are about photography, not of photography - i.e. photography self-help books - how to use photoshop, how to use your digital camera, how to photograph landscapes or weddings, "perception & imaging", the zen of photography, understanding exposure, and so on - That's what sells and what makes up the top ten sellers and probably 85-90% of the top 100

There wasn't even anything approaching a "photography book" in the current 100 best sellers on Amazon - closest was "The War" which is only really photography by default

Hundred books? With the elections coming soon, I'm sure there are 1000 political books selling right now.. so anything in the top 10,000 would be nice. And there are plenty of photography books selling in the top 10,000.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

If he's that well known and if his book will sell like hotcakes then he presumably wouldn't be self-publishing at all. Publishers should be lining up to publish it for him.

They have actually...well not like Aperture or Phaidon, but TeNues and a few others have. He rejected it because they wanted too much money out of all of the books sold.

[scott_6029]

Michael, appreciate your efforts. As an owner of several Lodima books the quality is exceptional. The Brett Weston series is fantastically printed as are others. And, as a photographer I am very picky about the quality of the print in the book. As an example there is another thread in this forum about someone who is having trouble understanding Edward Weston and all the 'fuss'. Well if you happen to come across one of Edward's books that is printed poorly (and many are) you may have a 'tainted' opinion. While nothing beats the real thing, i.e. the print in person, your books are clearly one of if not the best printed among many photography books I own. I would rather spend a little more money and get quality...it's the best way to 'afford' a body of work from a photographer you like.

[QT Luong]

He rejected it because they wanted too much money out of all of the books sold.

First time I have heard that for a photography book. In my opinion, you go into self-publishing to have maximum quality/control. There are a number of career benefits of having a nice book out, but self-published or published, making a lot of money *directly* from the sales are not one of them. It's not even clear whether the career benefits are worth the investment in time and/or money.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

First time I have heard that for a photography book. In my opinion, you go into self-publishing to have maximum quality/control. There are a number of career benefits of having a nice book out, but self-published or published, making a lot of money *directly* from the sales are not one of them. It's not even clear whether the career benefits are worth the investment in time and/or money.

Well, having a book out isn't going to help his career or hurt his career. The guy's kind of gone a different direction than a lot of fine art photographers have... instead of being exhibited at major galleries and/or museums, he's gone the route of liscening his work through posters, wall calendars, jig-saw puzzles, etc. and has made an incredible amount of money doing that. His work is exhibited in galleries, but smaller, more local galleries who can't keep his work in stock. I think a book would be the next logical step for him...will it make him a millionaire? No. Will it bring him fame and fortune? No. Will it be another notch he can add to his belt for his career? Yes. People who already have his posters, calendars and puzzles would love to have a book from him... but who knows if they're the same audience?

[Kirk Gittings]

Old photo wisdom..........

Successful stock photography does not necessarily make a successful book. They are completely different animals.

[David Karp]

Well, having a book out isn't going to help his career or hurt his career. . . . [W]ill it make him a millionaire? No. Will it bring him fame and fortune? No. Will it be another notch he can add to his belt for his career? Yes. . . . .

If this is the case, then maybe the photographer needs to think clearly about his objective. If he is looking for a "notch" then what is the difference if publishers are willing to publish his work? Is it about the notch, or is it about the money? Is the book for vanity purposes? Is it to help promote continued sales of his other items? Is it to keep his name in front of his audience? There are many reasons an artist might want a book, other than to make money. It seems like some time thinking about the purpose behind a book of the artist's photographs might be in order. If it is not about the money, then it might be worth having the publisher do the heavy lifting. The others have explained the risks and costs involved in the distribution part of marketing a photo book.

Also, based on what the others have said, self-publishing is very time consuming and will take the photographer away doing from what is already working for him. If there is no fortune to be made, perhaps it makes sense to concentrate on further developing the current sources of income.

[Michael A. Smith]

Got it, David. This photographer, whoever he may be, doesn't care about quality--the posters, calendars, and jigsaw puzzles were undoubtedly not printed by the finest printers. This person is going for a mass market, rather than a sophisticated or "connoisseurs" market.

So print the book in China where most books are printed these days. None of the potential buyers will know that the quality of the reproductions could be better, because they will never have seen really exceptional reproductions. If this photographer has the huge market that you describe then print 10,000 copies--or make it 20,000, or 50,000. Your unit costs will be exceedingly low. Line up your outlets before going to press. Have the books pre-sold on a wholesale/distributor basis. And you will make a profit. And the photographer will have a notch in his belt.

David Karp was right on. The very first thing anyone must do when contemplating a book project is to figure out why you are doing it. You seem to have contradictory reasons--one, the "notch" and two, to make money. They needn't be contradictory reasons, but if it was the "notch" only, you would go with whatever publisher would take it on and hell with the amount of profits.

You should know, too, that outside of the advance (if the photographer is famous enough to get one), even the big-name photographers, unless the book sells tens of thousands of copies, rarely see more than token royalties, and usually none at all. And that is if they aren't asked to put up the cost of the printing and binding--something not uncommon, even with the biggest publishers.

[Brian Ellis]

They have actually...well not like Aperture or Phaidon, but TeNues and a few others have. He rejected it because they wanted too much money out of all of the books sold.

Ah, then you've answered your own question of "I don't understand the problem."

As an aside, I own three books Michael has published - one of his work, one of Paula's and the Edward Weston book - and they are certainly the finest reproductions I've ever seen in a book. The Edward Weston book is a particular delight for anyone who likes Weston's work because not only are the photographs wonderful but the essay by Sarah Lowe and the memoir by Dody Weston Thompson make for fascinating reading. Many of the photographs are also accompanied by quotes from the "Daybooks" about the particular photograph, which I thought was a great idea and added a new and interesting dimension to the photographs.

[adrian tyler]

here are a few books i've done, some "commercial" some personal, the latest one isn't up yet but since i discovered what a well calibrated indigo does i'm only doing runs of 20 at a time...

for me it's very satisfying producing a book - not only working with authors but the rhythm, structure and poetry of typography combined with photographs create the possibility of producing a unique and beautiful object in itself.

sometimes i get paid, and sometime i pay.

but most people here could do an indigo run that'll work out at around 20 of your (once mighty) us bucks, or less, per copy, can't do that with an inkjet, i'd recommend it as a way to expand yuor photography.

http://www.adriantyler.net/print01.cfm?idseccion=11&idcategoria=43

[paulr]

At a panel discussion led by photo publishers, (including reps from Aperture, Powerhouse, and 21st Publishers) they all agreed that a VERY small percentage of photo books ever makes a profit.

When one does, it's always a crossover book--one that reaches out to a general audience, not to a purely art/photo audience. Books that take on a topic of great popular interest, like the aftermath of 911, or something like that. I don't know if there's ever been a profitable photographic monograph.

These photo publishers pay the bills with the ocasional blockbuster (and some of them run as non-profit organizations, getting money from other sources). Most of the photo books get published out of a love for the medium, and are published at a loss.

If you're planning to self-publish a photo book, step one is to cross out the word "profit" from your business plan. It won't happen. There are many reasons to publish a book, including fueling print sales, or just because you want to. But you'd have to be smoking a lot of really good weed to think you'll make money off of it. Even if you count your hundreds of hours of labor as being worth nothing.

I think it's important to figure out your goals and expectations as clearly as possible. Then you can decide what route to go. There are many: small edition, hand-made artists books; short-run or print-on-demand digital press books; self-funded traditionally printed books; traditionally printed books published with the help of a publisher/distributor (with both you and the publisher sharing the investment).

[Ben R]

If you have been working on a specific project, team up with a good writer and make a book is there more chance of getting publishers interested? I have a friend who has been writing for a certain hollywood project that is exploring Yiddish post war culture through the medium of film. As an aside I'm about to start a project of documenting the final remenants of that diaspora culture using photography. I hadn't known that he was involved in this project but when we were talking the idea sprung up to make a book out of it. I'm hoping that combining good writing, an interesting concept and good photography is probably a realistic way to actually interest the publishers. Or so I hope!

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

So, after a good deal of research here is what I found:

-Be prepared to print on speculation. No one will give us an order PRIOR to having a live book to review.
-Be prepared to give away UP TO 70% of cover price to get the coveted chains.
-Competing in a saturated category, tough to get distributors to buy in

I'd print on speculation, solicit several distributors, hope one can get Ingram Book to pick it up, then hope Ingram will pitch to chains. Highly speculative. If I DO get an order and it does sell, I’d have a BETTER chance of having the next release picked up, but by no means any guarantees. You only make money when you have significant volume and a catalog of trade and back list to choose from. Independent press lives and dies off the independents, where the margins are better (60% - 55%), but they are truly 1’sie, 2’sie orders.

It sounds difficult, but not impossible. The photographer, after receiving this news, decided it's best to wait until we've gotten one or two books under our belt.

What it seems like, is that there is a pretty big market out there of photographers who want to self-publish their own book. There are many, many distribution channels, printers, types of paper, so many different options it sounds like a huge headache to handle all on your own. I hope I can be of help to some photographers in the future.

Anyway, everyone's advice here has been extremely valuable and informative. Thank you!

[Gregg]

My wife is a publisher for a major publishing house, and has produced several hundred books; Book publishing is a very hard business, profit margins are small, and all publishers rely on that "best seller" to see them through, because most books loose money or break even. The biggest sellers are the one's talked about on TV, if your book is mentioned on Oprah, you have a good chance of hitting a home-run (100,000 + copies ). The hardest part is selling the book; first you must publish/produce the book, then you must "sell" it to the book-buyer (the book store--some books that are printed are not picked-up by the book store, and never reach market)-- then the book buyer must sell it to the general public. (the public buys very few books---1-5 books per year, per house hold). and any books that the book-buyer does not sell are shipped back to the publisher for a full refund. (you may sell 20,000 books, only to have 5,000 returned a year later). To compete, a book has to be of high quality, that means professional editing, design, printing, binding, and packaging/marketing. My wife has worked on self-published book projects on the side; helping chefs, artists, poets, ect. relize their dream. She charges $20,000- for her expertise (producing the book, correctly) additional costs would be the design, editing, printing, binding, shipping, storage, ect. most of the self-published books she has overseen end up costing $60,000 to $100,000. Some have sold out and been republished in a second edition. (thats when profits start-because the production costs have been taken care of in the first printing) None of the authurs self-published to make money on the books, but used the books as a vehicle to increase their standing/respect in their field, which in return have brought them larger incomes.

[roteague]

Gee $45K for printing a 96-page book sounds ridiculously high or awfully high faluting. And paying $65 for a THIN 96-pages is insane, even if Daggure himself signed that puppy. At least Helmut Newton's big book had some heft to it.

Good point Frank. I paid $45 for a signed Christopher Burkett book, and it was much bigger and thicker than the book we are talking about here. $65 is a bit too high, as a book to be purchased at a bookstore.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

My wife is a publisher for a major publishing house, and has produced several hundred books; Book publishing is a very hard business, profit margins are small, and all publishers rely on that "best seller" to see them through, because most books loose money or break even. The biggest sellers are the one's talked about on TV, if your book is mentioned on Oprah, you have a good chance of hitting a home-run (100,000 + copies ). The hardest part is selling the book; first you must publish/produce the book, then you must "sell" it to the book-buyer (the book store--some books that are printed are not picked-up by the book store, and never reach market)-- then the book buyer must sell it to the general public. (the public buys very few books---1-5 books per year, per house hold). and any books that the book-buyer does not sell are shipped back to the publisher for a full refund. (you may sell 20,000 books, only to have 5,000 returned a year later). To compete, a book has to be of high quality, that means professional editing, design, printing, binding, and packaging/marketing. My wife has worked on self-published book projects on the side; helping chefs, artists, poets, ect. relize their dream. She charges $20,000- for her expertise (producing the book, correctly) additional costs would be the design, editing, printing, binding, shipping, storage, ect. most of the self-published books she has overseen end up costing $60,000 to $100,000. Some have sold out and been republished in a second edition. (thats when profits start-because the production costs have been taken care of in the first printing) None of the authurs self-published to make money on the books, but used the books as a vehicle to increase their standing/respect in their field, which in return have brought them larger incomes.

I think there are so many different people you have to go through in order to self publish a book, I'm surprised so many have actually been printed. I think if someone out there could offer a one-stop service to help photographers self publish their books using the right printers, distributors, market their books in print and online etc. and help them distribute it, that could be a very valuable service. It is something I am considering doing in addition to the magazine, but have not made a final decision on it, yet. It's logical, really... we're already in touch with distributors, printers, paper companies, have our own layout and design staff etc. We have resources to help photographers market their books beyond the intial printing. It's just a matter of time and flexibility and how many photographers would be willing to get their books printed in Exton, PA and not China or Hong Kong.

[Dave Wooten]

Sounds like a winner....especially if the contacts for marketing the finished product are in place.

[QT Luong]

I think there are so many different people you have to go through in order to self publish a book, I'm surprised so many have actually been printed. I think if someone out there could offer a one-stop service to help photographers self publish their books using the right printers, distributors, market their books in print and online etc. and help them distribute it, that could be a very valuable service.


There are already such one-stop services. They are called ... book publishers. If you approach them with a check (or, more often done, a sponsor), I am sure they would look at any proposal more favorably than if they have to foot the bill.


It is something I am considering doing in addition to the magazine, but have not made a final decision on it, yet.

Hope you learned enough from this thread to be able to make an informed decision :-)

[Dave Wooten]

Photography fine art books have always been a niche market....in the scope of the whole publishing world there are not a lot of publishers IMNSHO that venture into those woods. It is not at all hard to find excellent photography books with high dollar retail prices inside the jacket on the remainder and clearance shelves for rediculously low prices. For the photographer to foot the total bill in most cases, for most photographers, the bill will be too much to even recoup the costs...that is the balance that is hard to achieve...who is going to stick their neck (pocket book) out far enough and take the chance....a good marketing venue could possibly or could vanity pick up the difference? Maybe so.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

There are already such one-stop services. They are called ... book publishers. If you approach them with a check (or, more often done, a sponsor), I am sure they would look at any proposal more favorably than if they have to foot the bill.

A lot of the book publisher's I've spoken to aren't accepting submissions right now. And they're discerning on taste. Some books are too controversial, some books aren't marketable for them, etc. If there was a service offered to help any photographer publish their own book without having to search through dozens of printers, without having to spend weeks, months years researching distribution potential, without having to find the correct places to market the book.... well, I think that service could come in useful to many photographers. The company would have done all of that research for the photographer and would know the best places and be able to provide it all to the photographer for a fee.


Hope you learned enough from this thread to be able to make an informed decision :-)

Not yet... I tend to lead with my heart and not with my head. If I'm passionate about something, and I'm definitely passionate about photography, then I tend to want to do it without thinking things through all of the time... sometimes that gets me in trouble. I think it's time for a nice sit down chat with an old photographer friend of mine.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

Photography fine art books have always been a niche market....in the scope of the whole publishing world there are not a lot of publishers IMNSHO that venture into those woods. It is not at all hard to find excellent photography books with high dollar retail prices inside the jacket on the remainder and clearance shelves for rediculously low prices. For the photographer to foot the total bill in most cases, for most photographers, the bill will be too much to even recoup the costs...that is the balance that is hard to achieve...who is going to stick their neck (pocket book) out far enough and take the chance....a good marketing venue could possibly or could vanity pick up the difference? Maybe so.

I think the one thing I've learned from this thread is that most photographers expect to LOSE money on self publishing. The service I'm thinking about offering just makes the experience of losing that money a lot easier. HA!

[Gregg]

I have a question; How many books by unknown photographers did you purchase in the last year?... how many in the last 5 years?....We all feel that our work is of high quality and value, and that we have something to say. But is the general public going to agree with you?. (exclude family,friends, etc.). Don't get me wrong I'm not against self publishing, (as I stated before, my wife is a publisher, and she also offers her service to those self-publishing---she has produced about 1000 books, with maybe 30 of them being self-published) but before you head down the publishing road you need to ask yourself some tough, honest questions.

[Robert Brummitt]

Portland Photographers Forum is hosting a free lecture on Making books. The speaker is Ctein and he'll discuss the do's and don'ts or as Homer would say "D'oh!".
I'll be taking notes.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

I have a question; How many books by unknown photographers did you purchase in the last year?... how many in the last 5 years?....We all feel that our work is of high quality and value, and that we have something to say. But is the general public going to agree with you?. (exclude family,friends, etc.). Don't get me wrong I'm not against self publishing, (as I stated before, my wife is a publisher, and she also offers her service to those self-publishing---she has produced about 1000 books, with maybe 30 of them being self-published) but before you head down the publishing road you need to ask yourself some tough, honest questions.

I don't have to purchase books by unknown photographers. They are sent to me. On average, I receive about 5 books a week to review and/or list in the magazine. Part of this service that I'm going to offer is going to also offer a new website for photographers to list their books. Unlike photo-eye which really only lists books by major photography book publishing companies. It's not up to me to decide if the general public would agree with me. In my thinking, I would provide a service to help the photographer publish their book. We would then submit the book to the distribution company, who would then solicit bookstores to garner their interest. It's up to the bookstores to decide if the photographer has marketablity. The more books we publish and have in bookstores, the better the likleyhood, down the road, we get some shelf space.

Of course, all of this is dependent upon schedule, etc. I think what I need to do is a dry run, work with a photographer on publishing a book with them and see how much time and energy it takes.

[Gregg]

I think the idea to offer your expertise in publishing is great. Your standing in the photo community should help insure your success.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

I think the idea to offer your expertise in publishing is great. I would just suggest a "strong interview" for perspective authors. A lot of people have an unrelestic attude as to what a book can do for them.(my wife turns down many would-be authors, who have money in hand, because they simply do not understand that having a book does not nesacarrly mean they are going to be famous). Your standing in the photo community should help insure your success.

Definitely 100% agree with you on this. I think, though, that if I can offer them the marketing services and reach I have with the magazine to help them with their books, even if they're not in bookstores...it can still help them. Maybe I should have a talk with your wife before I decide to get into this.

[Dirk Rösler]

The point is that there is probably more money to be made helping others to publish their books (even though the exercise may be futile) than from the act of publishing the book itself. It's like at the casino - the bank always wins; and there are always still people left with money to play.

[Kirk Gittings]

Let me understand this. You have never published a book, but you are going to offer your book publishing expertise to photographers who want to publish their books? Or are you simply going to sell them ads?

[Gregg]

Most authors do not make money on their books, (this is in all fields, not just photography) 80-90% of the books you see in book stores just break even. Let me give you an example; I'm a commerical photographer, ( 29 years in business) I shoot food, I have shot several cookbooks; the cookbook I just finished was for a large publisher, (i'm not going to give the name here-they are a good client of mine, but you have all heard of this publisher). They paid an up-and-comming chef $25,000 to write a cookbook, and supply the photographs, the chef hired me, ( I was on a list of "approved" photographers that the publisher supplied the chef) I charged the chef $25,000 to shoot the job, she spent another $8,000 on a ghost writer to help her polish the writing. By the time the book was published the chef was in the hole for $8000. the chef is now on a book tour ( book signings, morning talk show TV, etc ) all on the chefs dime ( this is her first cookbook so the publisher spends minimal money---she has no track record). The chef expects to recoup her costs by the added publicity she is getting for her restaurents.

[QT Luong]

> I charged the chef $25,000 to shoot the job

You certainly made more than if it was a book of your photography. I've been in contact with several publishers, and that figure significantly higher than what I've been offered to illustrate a whole pictorial book (my photos are stock rather than commissioned, though).

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

Let me understand this. You have never published a book, but you are going to offer your book publishing expertise to photographers who want to publish their books? Or are you simply going to sell them ads?

I think you mis-understand. I haven't decided I'm going to do anything just yet.

However, there are many things a photographer must consider when publishing a book. The most important thing to decide is what printer to use and how much the printing will cost. Since I already do business with my printer, he can do the same job that other printers do for far less with the same or even superior quality. I already have deals with two paper companies that allow me to buy the best quality paper out there for something like this cheaper than a photographer would and of course, if you buy paper from the printer, you have mark-up. I also already have deals in place with the binding company, in which the book could be bound for less than a printer would charge. So I already have these contacts in place. Next on the list is layout and design of the book. Well, we're already doing layout and design of photography, so this isn't much of a difference. Now, once the book is finally printed, our printer has deals with shipping companies that would ship this book for far less than prices you'd get elsewhere. So, through that end, we would offer a service, not for free of course, but a reasonable cost, to the photographer to help create their book instead of the photographer having to go out and manage all of these different things on his or her own, we've already done the leg work for them and have already saved them considerable time and money. Now, are we going to be anything like Lodima Press? In my wildest dreams I could never imagine so. This is American printing, which means the best printing you're going to find in America is 300 linescreen. Which is what the past two issues of the magazine have been printed on.

Now, once the book is created, I'm assuming the photographer is going to want to advertise it to collectors. Well, we're already doing that. We have a website that's growing, photoconnoisseur.net and a new website that's going to be launched in December that will be an online guide to photography books from large publishers like Aperture, to small publishers to just the lone photographer who wants to get his book listed for a small yearly fee. So, we have three resources in which we can help promote the photographer's new book with. Along with that, we have contacts at amazon.com that can help us get the book listed there. And finally, we have a contact with a distributor who will take every book we show them and promote it to the bookstores and advertise the book in their catalog and on their website.

So, we've handled everything from binding, paper, layout, printing, advertising, marketing and distribution for a book. Is there anything I'm leaving out? Oh right. Scans. If the photographer is a traditional photographer, my printer has an incredible quality drum scanner.

What worries me is the time that this would take up, especially in the middle of launching two new websites, running the magazine another secret project that didn't come to fruition this year but could next year... I'm already doing so much. I do have a graphic designer, but he's more of a designer and not a layout artist. Not to mention that the magazine keeps me so busy that you guys have wound being my social life for the past week... which sucks because there's no beer.

Anyway, just food for thought.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

Most authors do not make money on their books, (this is in all fields, not just photography) 80-90% of the books you see in book stores just break even. Let me give you an example; I'm a commerical photographer, ( 29 years in business) I shoot food, I have shot several cookbooks; the cookbook I just finished was for a large publisher, (i'm not going to give the name here-they are a good client of mine, but you have all heard of this publisher). They paid an up-and-comming chef $25,000 to write a cookbook, and supply the photographs, the chef hired me, ( I was on a list of "approved" photographers that the publisher supplied the chef) I charged the chef $25,000 to shoot the job, she spent another $8,000 on a ghost writer to help her polish the writing. By the time the book was published the chef was in the hole for $8000. the chef is now on a book tour ( book signings, morning talk show TV, etc ) all on the chefs dime ( this is her first cookbook so the publisher spends minimal money---she has no track record). The chef expects to recoup her costs by the added publicity she is getting for her restaurents.

Is the chef Giada DeLaurentes? If so, could you introduce me. I'm a huge fan of her cleavage!

[Frank Petronio]

Well good luck to you.

My two cents is that most photographers spend way more time obsessing about the print quality whilst letting ugly design and stupid copy slip by... and following the party for the book's arrival they tend to forget how to market it.

It's Monday morning, I am so fucking positive...

[Gregg]

> I charged the chef $25,000 to shoot the job

You certainly made more than if it was a book of your photography. I've been in contact with several publishers, and that figure significantly higher than what I've been offered to illustrate a whole pictorial book (my photos are stock rather than commissioned, though).

I am capable of charging a decent amount for a book because I have worked for the industry for many years and have a proven track record, when I started out I made almost nothing. A little secret in the cookbook industry is that now, the photographers are making equal, or more than the chef on the production of a book. The newest trend is that some photographers are now getting recognition on the book cover. If you look at the new cookbooks that have come out for the holidays, you will see a very high production value, with photographs on almost every page. Cookbooks are becoming food-lifestyle picture books.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

I am capable of charging a decent amount for a book because I have worked for the industry for many years and have a proven track record, when I started out I made almost nothing. A little secret in the cookbook industry is that now, the photographers are making equal, or more than the chef on the production of a book. The newest trend is that some photographers are now getting recognition on the book cover. If you look at the new cookbooks that have come out for the holidays, you will see a very high production value, with photographs on almost every page. Cookbooks are becoming food-lifestyle picture books.

Do you have a website?

[Gregg]

Do you have a website?

Sure, I'm new to this internet forum thing, and value my privacy, how do I contact you off-line ?

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

Sure, I'm new to this internet forum thing, and value my privacy, how do I contact you off-line ?

david@focusmag.info

You don't want people viewing your website?

[Gregg]

david@focusmag.info

You don't want people viewing your website?

My website is for my clients; I do not use the site as a marketing tool, I find that people who find me through the web are "trolling" for the lowest price, or are out to steal photos, or are trying to link my site to theirs; (I've had several bad experiances).
---several of my friends, now require that a perspective client fill out a questionair before being given access to their sites---I don't go that far--- but commercial photography can get very competive, we spend a lot of time/money finding and keeping the few clients that know the value of photography, and are willing to pay for it, (thats our "real job", the photography is second) and we don't share that information.

[Kirk Gittings]

I find that an odd perspective. My regular clients know what I do and don't need to see my site. It is potential clients who need to see my site and making them jump through hoops to gain access is hardly a welcome. And before you go there, my clientel includes many of the the top national firms in my field and none of my competitors limit access either. Doing a web search and ending up at my site is the easiest way to find me. Sure I get some lowball inquiries and it takes a couple of emails to blow them off. This just doesn't ring true.

What is the real story?

[tim atherton]

[QUOTE=Gregg;290806or are trying to link my site to theirs; (I've had several bad experiances).[/QUOTE]


err - that's why it's called the internet or the world wide web - it's a network... It only really works when it's a network

[QT Luong]

Seth Resnick also does this registration thing. I just cannot understand what is the benefit of it (my business model is just based on the opposite, and it works) but he is said to very successful and he teaches seminars on business and photography, so he somehow must know what he is doing.

[tim atherton]

Seth Resnick also does this registration thing. I just cannot understand what is the benefit of it (my business model is just based on the opposite, and it works) but he is said to very successful and he teaches seminars on business and photography, so he somehow must know what he is doing.

there are plenty of people in the business who think Seth Resnick is very good at promoting... Seth Resnick and getting people to pay for it - but not much more. Sort of the Tony Robbins of photography

[Gregg]

I find that an odd perspective. My regular clients know what I do and don't need to see my site. It is potential clients who need to see my site and making them jump through hoops to gain access is hardly a welcome. And before you go there, my clientel includes many of the the top national firms in my field and none of my competitors limit access either. Doing a web search and ending up at my site is the easiest way to find me. Sure I get some lowball inquiries and it takes a couple of emails to blow them off. This just doesn't ring true.

What is the real story?

This is the real story; just like you my regular clients know my work; my clients are ad agencies, and publishers; they steer their clients to my site to show who they plan to hire, and to justify the costs. A lot of it is branding, making their client feel as though they are getting someone special, someone exclusive. --now I'm not saying I'm better, or more talented than you or anyone else--I've know many photographers that have a stronger book than mine ( and many that do not-I place myself somewhere in the middle) but through marketing and placement I have been able to command some big bucks (its advertising-brand placement)- I have worked with a branding/ad agency for many years to place me in a nich market, I'm hired to make my clients product look special--I have taken my clients approcach and hired an agency to make me look special. not a bad idea, right ???

[QT Luong]

there are plenty of people in the business who think Seth Resnick is very good at promoting... Seth Resnick and getting people to pay for it - but not much more. Sort of the Tony Robbins of photography

Well, as also illustrated by this thread, there is more money to be made by catering to photographers rather than to buyers of photography, but still, you have to have something to offer that sets you apart.

[Gregg]

guys, I'm think that I have helped stear this thread away from book publishing-lets push it back to self published books.

[Gary Samson]

But, frankly, that is such an unappealing book on several levels (the cover to start with)... you have to allow for quality playing a role too.

(ducks)

Frank,
I am one of the contributing photographers to the Ghana Revisited book and I am wondering what you are basing your negative comments about this book on. Have you actually seen the publication? Aperture saw merit in publishing Strand's portrait of Ghana back in the 70's and a new book that celebrates the 50th anniversary of the independence of the country seems like a worthy topic for a publication.
Best,
Gary Samson

[r.e.]

Right now, I have a manuscript making the rounds of some publishers that do cookbooks and some agents who handle cookbooks.

Not a single person has suggested that they will pay us $25K all in inclusive of photographs.

Rather, the response to date is that the book is unconventional and the question that has been put to us is whether we are prepared to make it less niche market.

We are sufficiently encouraged by the response that we are not prepared, at this point, to make the book more conventional. We want to see a few more responses first.

Gregg's statements about how this works are not consistent with what is happening with our project, and suggest to me that he and his clients are working with bottom feeders and/or are selling a very pedestrian product.

The other, and more than plausible interpretation, is that his client is using the book as a marketing tool. Indeed, Gregg makes it fairly explicit that that is what is happening. In that case, we are talking about a packaged product that is basically part of an advertising campaign. At that point, Gregg's statement that he is $25K ahead, and his client $8K in the hole, mostly demonstrates either an excess of ego or a failure to understand marketing.

Either way, it has nothing to do with legitimate book publishing.

[QT Luong]

> Not a single person has suggested that they will pay us $25K all in inclusive of photographs.

> he and his clients are working with bottom feeders and/or are selling a very pedestrian product

You mean 25K is a bottom feeding rate for a book ??

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

My website is for my clients; I do not use the site as a marketing tool, I find that people who find me through the web are "trolling" for the lowest price, or are out to steal photos, or are trying to link my site to theirs; (I've had several bad experiances).---several of my friends, now require that a perspective client fill out a questionair before being given access to their sites---I don't go that far--- but commercial photography can get very competive, we spend a lot of time/money finding and keeping the few clients that know the value of photography, and are willing to pay for it, (thats our "real job", the photography is second) and we don't share that information.

I'm not an expert on low resolution or anything, but you pretty much can't do anything with a low resolution image. And there are also several scripts that prohibit anyone from downloading images off of your website. But really, even some of the biggest galleries and online photo websites don't have this because all of their work is low resolution. Some photographers go to the point of putting a watermark on their images. And all I would have to do is go on blackbook or workbook's websites and I could have access to thousands of commercial photographers in seconds.

Why would you even bother having a website if you don't use it as a marketing tool? Everyone uses the internet... rich or poor. I mean, I have no idea what your business model is and maybe you have more than enough clients and you don't want to expand beyond the clients you already have, but again, why have a website? Why pay for the hosting, domain, design etc. etc. if you're not going to use it to promote yourself?

I guess this is venturing off self-published books, but that's the beauty of the internet... you can have conversationst that turn into other conversations.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

This is the real story; just like you my regular clients know my work; my clients are ad agencies, and publishers; they steer their clients to my site to show who they plan to hire, and to justify the costs. A lot of it is branding, making their client feel as though they are getting someone special, someone exclusive. --now I'm not saying I'm better, or more talented than you or anyone else--I've know many photographers that have a stronger book than mine ( and many that do not-I place myself somewhere in the middle) but through marketing and placement I have been able to command some big bucks (its advertising-brand placement)- I have worked with a branding/ad agency for many years to place me in a nich market, I'm hired to make my clients product look special--I have taken my clients approcach and hired an agency to make me look special. not a bad idea, right ???

So, you do use your website to market yourself??

Ok, the suspense is killing me. You've gotta have one helluva website to let only a few select people view it. I'm expecting your website to be really advanced, with FLASH, Java, Cappucino, XML, ZML, fireworks, firecrackers, you name it. I've gotta see your website. I've got my Internet Explorer fully tricked out with the latest version of FLASH and probably about every single add-on you can imagine. I've got an AMD Quad-Core and I'm packing 4 gigs of RAM and 256MB of video RAM.My monitor is an hp 22" 2207 with a 1000:1 contrast ratio and I can even go to my nextdoor neighbors and look on her MAC. Please E-Mail me your website.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

Well, as also illustrated by this thread, there is more money to be made by catering to photographers rather than to buyers of photography, but still, you have to have something to offer that sets you apart.

It's interesting that you say that. The buyers of photography have more disposable income than photographers do, wouldn't you think?

[QT Luong]

Low resolution images can be used on the web. The web is nowadays where the advertising action is taking place, and an industry group found that 9 out of 10 image uses were unauthorized. None of the anti-downloading scripts work against a knowledgeable individual.

Many of the serious buyers of photography (either prints or licenses) are professional or institutional, so that's not "disposable income". Those who use such income to buy photography are in much, much smaller numbers than photographers. Many photographers have other careers that can be lucrative.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

Low resolution images can be used on the web. Right but they can't be printed out and sold as anything because the quality is too low, right?

[Dirk Rösler]

... and unlike photographers, 'real' buyers of photography don't have in them one of the prime motivations of book (self-)publishing: vanity or appetite for posterity.

From what I understand it is common practice in Japan for the photographer to pay the publisher for the first one or two books to be published. Then you hope to get noticed.

[r.e.]

> You mean 25K is a bottom feeding rate for a book ??

That is a bottom feeding rate for a packaged book, which is what Gregg is talking about.

There are a couple of things going on in the book market that one needs to be aware of. There are books that are published in the traditional way, and there are packaged books. For an example of the latter, in the cookbook field, look for example at the Charlie Trotter books. They are all packaged, indeed that is acknowledged in the credits for each of his books. By acknowedged, I mean that the name of the packager is on his books. And the idea that Charlie Trotter gets paid $25K to produce a book, all in, is ridiculous. Which tells you something about Gregg's example.

You are getting a view of the business of publishing cookbooks from the point of view of a photographer who thinks that he is centre stage and that the chef and the writer (if they are not the same person, although sometimes they are) are secondary. Not to mention, there seems to be no recognition of the fact that if there is real money behind the project, there are people who are selling the chef's persona in other media. The egocentricity of Gregg's position is really quite striking.

Look, to begin with, nobody that we are dealing with is talking about paying us a flat rate for a book. That is not how it works, at least not with legitimate publishers and agents. If someone did, let me tell you that we would reject $25K out of hand. It wouldn't take two seconds to make a decision.

Cheers.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

That is a bottom feeding rate for a packaged book, snip....

:eek:

[Gregg]

I'm not an expert on low resolution or anything, but you pretty much can't do anything with a low resolution image. And there are also several scripts that prohibit anyone from downloading images off of your website. But really, even some of the biggest galleries and online photo websites don't have this because all of their work is low resolution. Some photographers go to the point of putting a watermark on their images. And all I would have to do is go on blackbook or workbook's websites and I could have access to thousands of commercial photographers in seconds.

Why would you even bother having a website if you don't use it as a marketing tool? Everyone uses the internet... rich or poor. I mean, I have no idea what your business model is and maybe you have more than enough clients and you don't want to expand beyond the clients you already have, but again, why have a website? Why pay for the hosting, domain, design etc. etc. if you're not going to use it to promote yourself?

I guess this is venturing off self-published books, but that's the beauty of the internet... you can have conversationst that turn into other conversations.


I have standard leather/embosed portfolios, when someone calls requesting to view one, my agent ask them a series of questions, what is the job, what is the budget, who is the client, etc. Then my agent and I decide if we are intersted; if we are, we send the portfolio--or in most cases, my agent travels to their office with the portfolio.
The portfolio we keep on line is an extension of the leather portfolios. When my agent is meeting with a client, the client may express intrest in viewing more work;
my agent then opens her laptop and has access to hundreds of images, intrested in having us shoot french food?, "maybe you would like to see some images of our recent trip to france", ect, ect,
My agent also uses the electronic portfolio to softly sell; she visits all our clients at least once every two months, taking them to lunch or dinner, she talks to the clients about their familys, she listens while they complain about co-workers, ect. My agent
never mentions work, never ask if they have any jobs comming-up, it's more about two friends grabbing a bite to eat; if during the conversation the client ask about a recent project, my agent has access to all my work on line, if the the subject of photography never comes up, then her laptop stays in he bag, and no mention of a job is made (this is called soft-selling).

You need to put things in context, the problem with this forum, and the internet, is it tries to seperate and put ideas in seperate boxes; The way I market is related to, the type of clients that I work with, the type of work I do-and the type of life I live, it's interconnected. It may seem dumb to some, that I do not market on the internet, but thats not how I want to run my business; thats why I have an agent, I prefer a personal human approach.-- I turn down many jobs simply because I do not like the client, or because I have no interest in the job, or simply because I just got back from a trip and want some time off. And even my attude you need to put in context; I'm older, I've owned/opperated commercial studios in New York, and Los Angeles for 29 years, I've made my money, I am in a position to pick and choose.

There has been some chatter on this thread about a cookbook I shot and the amount I was paid. First the client was Random House: the amount paid $25,000. it all breaks down very simply, I charge $3000. per day when I shoot food, we shot for 8 days; 3000x8=24, plus some misc. expenses. Sometimes we charge by the day, sometimes by the job, ( I'm not going to get into usage, reprints etc). Sometimes Random house pays the author a set fee ( as in this case) some times they pay a percentage ( every job, every client varies ). Rachael Rey is a popular TV chef, her first cookbook was published by Random House, they paid her $25,000, for the book, including photography; she went to New York hired a food photographer and spent thirty thousand plus dollars on photography, plus several thousand dollars more on her own publicity (random house did the marketing of the book-but not the marketing of the author). This is a very well known story, Rachael Ray has talked about it on TV ) it is also a very common story in the publishing field. Henery Miller, The Tropic of Cancer--self published--the author recieved nothing on the first printing, but made millions on repete printings. Harry Potter-Rawlings author, first book, first printing-paid less than $20,000, now she is the richest woman in England. Many people use their first book to get them established, very few make money on their first book.

[gbogatko]

I heard this story once about the finance industry:

Two men were walking by a yacht basin below Wall Street in Manhattan. One was proudly pointing out huge boats saying: "That's Mr. Mellon's yacht, that's Mr. Morgan's, that's Mr. Schwab's, that's Mr. Gould's" and on and on. The second asked, "And which ones are the client's yachts?"

A Publisher will publish your book if they think _they_ can make money from it, not you. A book store will place your book if they think _they_ can make money from it, not you. This is America in the 21st century. "The Photography of Sammy Davis Jr." is high art. "Snoop Dog" is high art. Pictures of Bob Dylan fumbling with his guitar or James Dean slouching are "very desirable" and get featured in high art black and white magazines. Fetishistic Pornography advertised on "youscrew.com" and printed on toilet paper will sell more books in 5 minutes than all the fine artists will in their lifetime. Millionaires pay for original Steichen stuff because some art parasite told them over lunch that it's a good investment.

And why is this? It's certainly not because any of the above is of such stupefying quality that it shines like a high-voltage beacon blasting out of the great swamp of mediocrity. It's because in order to sort the oceans of uninspired dross that cross the publisher's desk at any one moment, the only possible filter is recommendations based on what everyone else is doing, or the efforts of a really good propagandist, or a shot on Oprah or just pure blind luck. Thus has it always been, and thus will it always be. Talent keeps you on top. It doesn't get you there.

Go here: http://www.lumierephoto.com and places like it. They will do on-demand short runs that you can then give away to your friends and relatives. Be prepared for most of the praise to be of the same level of effusion as if the book was blank. A few will know what they are looking at, and from that you will gain some measure of affirmation.

Then go out and take pictures because you damn well like to do it. It's the only thing that will keep you going. Perhaps, with any luck, your third cousin will forget one of the copies in a restaurant somewhere and an influential critic will see it and, swooning, stagger off to a famous publisher who will see the light, burn all the Sammy Davis copies along with the fetish collections and the rest will be history.

gb

[CG]

This is the real story; just like you my regular clients know my work; my clients are ad agencies, and publishers; they steer their clients to my site to show who they plan to hire, and to justify the costs. A lot of it is branding, making their client feel as though they are getting someone special, someone exclusive. --now I'm not saying I'm better, or more talented than you or anyone else--I've know many photographers that have a stronger book than mine ( and many that do not-I place myself somewhere in the middle) but through marketing and placement I have been able to command some big bucks (its advertising-brand placement)- I have worked with a branding/ad agency for many years to place me in a nich market, I'm hired to make my clients product look special--I have taken my clients approcach and hired an agency to make me look special. not a bad idea, right ???

I too don't publicize my site. There are, for me, other reasons. I use my site as a fast way for folks I choose to see my work. Painting in my case. Just galleries.

I have no interest whatsoever in trying to sell direct. If I believed it could work for me I would, but seeing some work is utterly different than just an image of it.

I don't carry a portfolio around with me all the time, but I can hand out my url if someone is interesting and interested, and I can whet their interest. While many people sell many things direct over the net, it's not used that way by all. It can be used as a great portable portfolio.

The notion that everyone needs to link to everyone may oversimplify.

C

[Don Miller]

Has anyone here ever self published their own book of photography? If so, can you give me the details, i.e. how many pages did you make the book, how big was the book, how many copies did you print, etc.? Do you sell it through your own website, to friends or does there exist some kind of independent photography book site, kind of like photo-eye, except for independent publishers?


I have notes that say blurb.com and iphoto books (mac) are good quality printers.

[Kirk Gittings]

I turn down many jobs simply because I do not like the client, or because I have no interest in the job, or simply because I just got back from a trip and want some time off. And even my attude you need to put in context; I'm older, I've owned/opperated commercial studios in New York, and Los Angeles for 29 years, I've made my money, I am in a position to pick and choose.


All this is true of me too (29 years with a national clientel) and yet I don't find it necessary or useful to be anonymous and hide my website. I know nothing about you. You may be the real thing. The problem is that the web is full of anonymous bullshitters, who sound knowledgeable. Personally, to me, photography is about images and no matter how knowledgeable someone sounds, the proof is in their images.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

I have notes that say blurb.com and iphoto books (mac) are good quality printers.

They're pretty expensive and all they use is UPS... I mean, if you want like 10 or so books published, I guess it's good, but they don't seem like they're the kind of company to go to if you're serious about publishing your own book and want quantaties in the thousands.

[Dirk Rösler]

The problem is that the web is full of anonymous bullshitters, who sound knowledgeable.

It's also full of people who know better with lots of advice to give. ;)