4x5 view camera with 35mm DSLR [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

Nicolas G.

30-Sep-2007, 02:53

Hi !

First, let me tell you I know nothing about large format view camera, apart reading lot of articles these last weeks. I use 35mm EOS-D and am thinking about adapting one on a sinar F1 or P2 (the P2 seems easier to adapt, meaning puting back the DSLR sensor on film focal plane to keep angles, focus and such, but is more expensive). I'm about building a plate to put the dslr back to center its sensor, but I'v seen on sinar documentation that a 0.3mm back or front is really horrible for result. So will I need such precision if I want to use scheimpflug rule with reading angles on standards ?

Now, if I follow this road, I will need some LF lenses that allow movements (which is indeed why I'm interested in such system) but don't want poor lenses in resolution. I will use around 16mp FF 35mm sensor and don't want inferior resolution than with Canon L primes.

So, without going to HR digital LF lenses which are very expensive, what would be some good lenses for such use ? Seems symmar 180 APO and Schneider super angulon 90 f/8 are good and not too expensive ? I would have 50mm, 85mm, and maybe 135mm perspective equivalent on 24x36. So I guess I will need a 150mm to have field of view of a 50mm 24x36, but I will keep perspective/deformation from a 150mm as focal lenght doesn't change with the format, right ? So maybe a 90mm would be a good starting lense. Which one should I look for on ebay to get a relatively high resolution one in let's say 150/250€ price range ?

Thanks for any information,

Nicolas

Greg Lockrey

30-Sep-2007, 05:28

It will depend on the length of the lens. I use a 90mm comfortably with my Canon 5D but bear in mind that you will not get full use of the lens due to the mirror box getting in the way. I normally can get up to about 6 full 35mm equivalent images. That is two of the length x 3 of the width. Any more the mirror box hits the edges. I have used a 65mm from a 2x3 camera with my Sinar P. But I have a recessed lens board for that. Not to bore anyone anymore with my rig, here is a picture of it again.

David A. Goldfarb

30-Sep-2007, 05:44

You can buy a sliding EOS/Graflok adapter fairly cheaply (under $200) from fotodiox.com, rather than making one yourself. It also comes in Nikon mount.

Greg Lockrey

30-Sep-2007, 06:11

Sometimes fotodiox doesn't have them in stock but there is a Chinese equivelent available at e-bay for about $130. The one I have was $400 made in Finland and is no longer available.

Ted Harris

30-Sep-2007, 06:17

David/Greg, can one of you point me to the actual page on fotodiox? I just searched around and couldn't find it. Maybe I just need more am coffee.

D. Bryant

30-Sep-2007, 06:21

David/Greg, can one of you point me to the actual page on fotodiox? I just searched around and couldn't find it. Maybe I just need more am coffee.

http://www.fotodiox.com/shop/index.php

Don Bryant

Michael Graves

30-Sep-2007, 06:22

I'm with Ted. It just looks like a pointer site where somebody's being paid by the click.

Greg Lockrey

30-Sep-2007, 06:45

I think it was about five years ago when I was first interested in marrying the Canon with Sinar that fotodiox came up. At that time they did have a Nikon-4x5 adapter. I wrote them about an EOS adapter and they said then it was in production....whatever that really means. I waited another year for an adapter that never came through. The StudioTool that I seen on another forum happened to have come up for sale by the writer of the article who turned me on to this type of image capture. I keep hearing about the fotodiox versions but never seen one. I do have their Visioflex-Canon EOS adapter and am very satistfied with the quality. I just now looked for the 4x5 to EOS and can't find it either. I would go to the e-Bay and there is one for buy it now for $129 from China. It should work just fine. http://cgi.ebay.com/Moveable-Adapter-Fits-Canon-Eos-Camera-To-4x5-Camera_W0QQitemZ220152948508QQihZ012QQcategoryZ15215QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

David A. Goldfarb

30-Sep-2007, 06:46

I saw it at PMA. If it's not on the website, you might have to e-mail them. It was also in their printed catalogue, if I remember correctly, but I didn't keep the catalogue.

Gary J. McCutcheon

30-Sep-2007, 08:25

If you go to the fotodiox and then to lens adapters on the first page you will find the 4x5 large format to Nikon adapter. The EOS adapter is the same thing with the Canon mount. I have one that I bought about 3-4 months ago. Same price as the Nikon adapter. It wasn't listed when I bought one either so I called them and they had two at the time. I bought one. So, call there number and ask them if or when they will have them. You could buy the Nikon adapter and put a Nikon to Canon adapter on it, possibly. I found that my 90mm super angulon hits the adapter before infinity focus. The physical lens and the depth of the Canon sensor are not compatible. Longer lenses work, however. Lenses made for digital may work at shorter focal lengths.

I have found that if you call tha company and ask lots of questions, they are willing to answer what they can.

Nicolas G.

30-Sep-2007, 10:05

Thanks all.

I've found some EOS adapter, but they are just an EOS mount on a plate. What I want is to put the sensor where is the film to keep the geometry of the view camera.
Have found this and have contact them, waiting for an answer :
http://www.skgrimes.com/thisweek/1-09-05/index.htm

So it sounds 90mm super angulon isn't something to buy for such system ? What would be a nice lens then ?

Thks
Nicolas

Bill L.

30-Sep-2007, 12:58

I have one of the adapters from fotodiox - it has been quite interesting to play with though haven't used it for serious applications yet. I went this route to have an easy solution for having movements available for the DSLR when I wasn't just using the view camera. If you don't have a 4x5 system, why are you looking at this type of approach rather than a tilt-shift lens? By the time you have your system set up, you could at least get a Hartblei super rotator. You can get shorter focal lengths that way, which you originally mentioned. The 150mm on a 4x5 with your FF DSLR on the back will give you the equivalent of a 150mm lens for your DSLR. It will only give you a wider view if you take multiple shots and stitch them together so that the total image area is larger than your sensor. While I've had some good preliminary results with this system, I would not have taken this approach if I hadn't already had the view camera.

Cheers!
Bill

Ron Marshall

30-Sep-2007, 13:13

Someone attached an extension tube to a lensboard to mount a 35mm for stitching.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/canon-view-camera.html

Richard Kelham

30-Sep-2007, 13:41

What you need is the Cambo Ultima, probably with some Digitar lenses. It will probably cost you an arm and a leg but you don't get real quality for peanuts. Actually you don't get *real* quality using a Canon digi-Eos for any kind of money, but that is another story...

Greg Lockrey

30-Sep-2007, 14:37

Nicolas G.

30-Sep-2007, 14:57

Well, I must say that I really like the mood and feeling of a 4x5 view camera, and I would need the movements, specially about focus plane (perspective don't interest me right now). So maybe I should go with a 90mm tse, sure more versatile, maybe less expensive. But well, a 90 tse have no vintage charm at all ;-)
But seems I can't do anything good with a 35mm canon digicam, and I have no money for a LF digital back and digitar lenses, so let's see ...

Thanks all for your answers, really apreciated, sincerely.

Nicolas

seepaert

1-Oct-2007, 10:00

So, without going to HR digital LF lenses which are very expensive, what would be some good lenses for such use ? Seems symmar 180 APO and Schneider super angulon 90 f/8 are good and not too expensive ? I would have 50mm, 85mm, and maybe 135mm perspective equivalent on 24x36. So I guess I will need a 150mm to have field of view of a 50mm 24x36, but I will keep perspective/deformation from a 150mm as focal lenght doesn't change with the format, right ? So maybe a 90mm would be a good starting lense.
I think you missed something over there.

A 150mm lens will act exactly the same as a genuine canon lens of that length. Perspective and DOF will be as they were, the latter off course depending on your aperture. A 150mm will act as a telelens, a 50mm will be a standard. And even the super angulon will, despite its name, be a (moderate) telelens. The difference will be the range of apertures, starting and ending much smaller.

On a 4x5 using a lens shorter than about 65mm will not be easy. You will at least need a wide-angle-bellows and a recessed lensboard, but even then movements will be restricted. I suggest you make your choice of brand with that in mind. The smaller the minimum distance between lens and film/sensor, the better.

Richard Kelham

1-Oct-2007, 11:35

BS!

What the OP wants is a way to get the digital camera sensor in the film plane so that all the movements work correctly. All the suggestions for adaptors that mount the DSLR some way behind the camera fail to meet that criterion. The Cambo does what he wants:

"The Ultima 35 places the sensor exactly in the optical axis vertically, horizontally and front-to-back. Any rear movement, whether swing, tilt or shift keeps the film plane on axis and in focus." to quote from the Cambo web-site.

Unfortunately, like many people here, the OP wants a Rolls-Royce solution for Ford Focus money.

Richard

paulr

1-Oct-2007, 11:41

A 150mm lens will act exactly the same as a genuine canon lens of that length. Perspective and DOF will be as they were, the latter off course depending on your aperture

and the sharpness/resolution will be much worse. the enormous image circle of the large format optics comes at the expense of mtf performance at high resolutions. this is normally more than compensated for by the much smaller enlargements you make with bigger negatives. but if you're using a tiny digital sensor, your enlargement factors will be very big.

Nicolas G.

1-Oct-2007, 11:53

I don't want a rolls for ford money, as I said I know nothing about LF view camera, that's why I ask here. I now better define the problems, and maybe will put this project for later. I don't "need" such tools, I just wanted to know if I could buy some used part on ebay and build an adapter myself to "play" with movements of a view camera, which I think could give me more creativity. The day I "need" such tool, I know what to buy and will put the money into, no doubts. I don't "want" anything for "nothing", I'm just looking at a solution to gather something I could play with. But as I'm perfectionnist I won't do it if it doesn't give me good results, that was my primary interrogation.

Nicolas

paulr

1-Oct-2007, 12:42

i'd start by figure out how big an image circle you need (based on the size of the sensor and the movements you want to use).

you might get a good compromise from decent medium format optics. the image circle will be smaller than lf optics, but might be big enough for your needs.

Marco Annaratone

1-Oct-2007, 13:10

Marrying a DSLR with a LF camera makes me think only about three things, and not necessarily in this order: dust, dust, and dust.

Geez, I am too much of a worrior :eek:

Greg Lockrey

1-Oct-2007, 14:41

Greg Lockrey

1-Oct-2007, 14:42

Marrying a DSLR with a LF camera makes me think only about three things, and not necessarily in this order: dust, dust, and dust.

Geez, I am too much of a worrior :eek:

No more than changing the regular lenses.

Nicolas G.

1-Oct-2007, 14:56

Greg Lockrey

1-Oct-2007, 15:28

Greg, I was just reading this :

http://www.ppmag.com/web-exclusives/2006/05/review-studiotoolstm-stsmodel.html#more

Will try to find a store that have that, but if too expensive I can build it (at least some relations lol !)

But, it seems manually tunes along x axis, so how can this be just "in plane" ?

Nicolas

That is a old story from May of '06. It's been my understanding that StudioTool is no longer made. I would try googling StudioTool to see what you can find. This is the exact unit I have. I use mine with a Canon 5D. Most of my work with it is a studio enviroment copying large art pieces. It's a "poor man's" scanner. The setup is on a Sinar P and all the movements that a 4x5 have you will have with the Canon only more limited due to the mirror box casting a shadow onto the image. BTW the base adapter that the camera is held to the P rear standard is also made by Really Right Stuff. Getting the bag bellows that fit the Canon and Sinar/Horseman will be the trick. Maybe someone on this forum may have one for sale since they moved up to one of those high end digital backs. That's how I got mine. :) Marrying a SLR to 4x5 is an old practice dating back to the 60-70's.

Nicolas G.

2-Oct-2007, 03:43

ok, back from a few real discussions, I have some relation to build such plate with very high precision (laser robots and such). My father will do the cad plans (part of his job), I will study in detail all this. Funny part is that who will make it is in ... switzerland ! Which is good to adapt on a swiss sinar lol !
Once one is done, as it is computer generated with robots, I can make thousands of them. Even if it's not the goal, could be interesting for a few.
Have to study all this in details, make plans, and build prototype. Will find a P2 on ebay to test all that. I now need the exact distance between sensor and mount on EOS (seems 44mm but I need precision).
I will also have to find a way to rotate the lens mount on the rear standard to shoot hor/vertically, but shouldn't be too much of a problem.
So, back to the original question : which lenses should I get ?

And what are differences between copal 0, copal 1, etc ?
And what does exactly a recessed plate ? It put the lens forward to be able to slide the front standard closer to the rear standard ?

Again, thanks all for all these informations !
I know this is a lot of work for maybe nothing, but hey, it's my job to think, conceive, and optimize stuffs and workflow, so it is fun for me ;-) Maybe I will sell the complete package for 2$ once done, but at least I will have learn something, and life is that, whatching, understanding, learning :-)

Nicolas

Pentacon Globica

2-Oct-2007, 05:57

Im trying to do the same with 5x7 camera probably with this chinese adapter. Im not sure if somebody posted this link:
http://www.camerafusion.com/

Pentacon Globica

2-Oct-2007, 06:54

I dont know if somebody posted this link http://www.camerafusion.com/
Its to expensive for me and I got 5x7 cam. But Im thinking about buying some old 4x5.

Nicolas G.

2-Oct-2007, 08:23

Such system works great for stitching, but it doesn't place the sensor on the film plane, so playing with movements will destroy your focus each time.

Ben R

2-Oct-2007, 09:58

The link above for the camera fusion does exactly that Nicolas. Only problem seems to be that you can't use wider than a 135mm and that only with a crop camera (i.e. widest is a 200mm in 35mm terms, not good).

seepaert

2-Oct-2007, 10:06

I now need the exact distance between sensor and mount on EOS (seems 44mm but I need precision).
I will also have to find a way to rotate the lens mount on the rear standard to shoot hor/vertically, but shouldn't be too much of a problem.
So, back to the original question : which lenses should I get ?Any lens longer than the 44mmm of your canon plus the minimum length of your bellows (give or take a few mm).

And what are differences between copal 0, copal 1, etc ?Without going into detail: the size of the hole in your lensboard and the lens it will fit on.

And what does exactly a recessed plate ? It put the lens forward to be able to slide the front standard closer to the rear standard ?No, just the other way around. Brings the lens closer to the filmplane (and have some movement of the bellows left).

Nicolas G.

2-Oct-2007, 23:27

thanks for all these clarifications :-)

Another things I don't understand :
This lens is said with copal1 shuter, but where is the shuter ?? Is it an automatic shuter ?

http://www.withinlights.com/temp/9385_12.JPG

Nicolas

seepaert

3-Oct-2007, 05:28

I don't see a shutter either. Maybe it's a lens of an enlarger or a reproductioncamera that doesn't need a shutter. Or the lens of a digital back, that also doesn't need a shutter.

Maybe the copal number only refers to the size of the hole in the lensboard.

Ben R

3-Oct-2007, 05:33

It uses the Sinar automatic system, I'm afraid I know nothing about it but the shutter, aperture and cocking are operated by some kind of remote control.

Nicolas G.

3-Oct-2007, 06:05

Here it is another one like this :
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180164361851&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=008

Would it be indeed a remote shutter, with a cable fixed on the rear standard ?

Nicolas

Ben R

3-Oct-2007, 08:19

Asher Kelman

3-Oct-2007, 11:30

Ted Harris has used the Camera Fusion albeit at less than its supposed capability (they say you can get a further 10 frames more than he did, maybe a new model?). That was July or so and he promised more info about now, would be interesting to know if he if he has any more to tell us, I know the moderator of OPF is expecting his new version for review in the post yesterday...
Hi,

Thanks for the plug, Ben!

I have tested thec orginal version and made suggestions back to CameraFusion and the updated version is expected any moment! Tracking says it has left Canada on September 29th, LOL! I wonder why it takes so long! I'm really looking forward to seeing the new version! My tests have been limited to the Canon 5D.

Once I receive it I'll have a review out in fairly short time.

Asher