Fotoman 5x7 Film Holder - Thickness

[Paul Droluk]

Wouldn't you know it... just as we're about to finish up on the molds for our 5x7 Film Holders... a discrepancy pops up...

the ANSI specification for 5x7 film holder thickness is 0.562 inches, so that's what we started tooling for. In the meantime, we picked up samples of various 5x7 holders (no Toyo's though)... none of which have the same thickness, and none of which agrees with the ANSI spec.

Would someone who has a Toyo 5x7 film holder please measure the thickness?

Better yet, would someone be willing to donate a Toyo 5x7 film holder for an autopsy? We would glady return 2 of our new film holders as a thank you for the donation.

[Michael Mutmansky]

Why do you care what the Toyo holder is? Go with the ANSI spec and don't worry about that others have done.

Are you seeing T distance discrepancies?


---Michael

[Paul Droluk]

Why do you care what the Toyo holder is? Go with the ANSI spec and don't worry about that others have done.

Are you seeing T distance discrepancies?


---Michael

Michael, we promised everyone film holders as closely matching Toyo's as possible. Knowing Toyo, I suspect their thickness dimension would be spot on... but I just want to make sure. Along with verifying overall dimensions, we have observed design and manufacturing differences between Toyo 4x5 and 8x10 holders... small details that have us wondering about their execution of the 5x7's.

We have seen variation in T distances, but honestly all of the samples we procured were pretty well used... I wouldn't make any statements in this regard based on the samples we inspected.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

HOw wide is the variance? Is it within manufacturer tolerances? If you are seeing changes in a range of 0.560 to 0.564 or maybe even a little bit higher I would say you don't have to worry about it too much. barring that, then I would follow ANSI specs, certainly better than using what Toyo does. I beleive ( and I migfht be wrong) than Linhof has once upon a time 5x7 holders, you might want to contact Bob Solomon and ask him to give you a hand with the measurements they used. There were no better made holders than those from Linhof.

Good luck, and let me know when you are ready for 12x20 or 8x10.. :)

[Jan Pedersen]

Sorry, can't help with Toyo holder but look forward to see the finished Fotoman 5x7

[Sal Santamaura]

...Knowing Toyo, I suspect their thickness dimension would be spot on... but I just want to make sure...No Toyo 5x7 holders here Paul, but I just measured a half dozen 5x7 Liscos. They ran from 0.503 to 0.515 inch.

A holder's T-depth is critical, but I don't think outside thickness is. Holder thickness can vary based on how thick the septum is. As long as you maintain a seating surface exactly one "T" from the septum, it doesn't matter if your holders are 0.5 or 0.6 thick. I can't think of a camera back that wouldn't accommodate anything in that range.


...We have seen variation in T distances, but honestly all of the samples we procured were pretty well used... I wouldn't make any statements in this regard based on the samples we inspected. I won't tell you how much variation there is in the T-depth of these 5x7 Liscos, since I won't bother to measure it. Based on similar 4x5 holders I did measure for that parameter when brand new some years ago it's probably significant from holder to holder as well as side to side on each holder. Nothing out of the Burbank plant could be accused of displaying great precision. :) I did check my Toyo 4x5 and 8x10 holders; all measure T-depth within 0.003 inch of the ANSI standard.

[Oren Grad]

So long as it doesn't affect structural integrity, I would err in the direction of thinner rather than thicker. As Sal says, it's the T-distance that really matters.

For 5x7 I use mostly a stack of late-model Fidelity holders that measure a hair thicker than 0.5", and those work very well for me. I have some older, thicker holders too, but my Nagaoka is not entirely thrilled about swallowing them.

[Ole Tjugen]

I can measure my 13x18cm Linhof holders next weekend, but not now - I'm on an oil rig.

I can't say I've noticed any difference in dimensions between Lisco, Fidelity and Linhof though - except the "Linhof Universal Film- und Platten-Doppelkassetten (mit Auswerfer)" which are thicker..

[John Kasaian]

Wouldn't the Toyo 5x7 holders be the same thickness as Toyo 4x5 holders?

[Paul Droluk]

Wouldn't the Toyo 5x7 holders be the same thickness as Toyo 4x5 holders?

Actually, the ANSI thickness spec for thickness is different for 4x5 and 5x7 (0.520 vs. 0.562).

Our concern regarding thickness ultimately has to do with holder weight. Complying with both the ANSI "T" distance AND thickness spec's for 5x7 holders will lead to a heavier holder. Indeed, all of the samples we have seen so far are thinner than the ANSI spec, closer or the same as for 4x5... probably for the very same reason. Obviously meeting the "T" distance is mandatory, but thickness will likely not make a difference in any cameras that we are aware of... we would simply like to know what Toyo did.

As far as "why Toyo"... we've now had an opportunity to disect a lot of holders (though not every maker, every size), and from what we've seen so far, the Toyo's are better designed and manufactured than the others... it's in the attention to detail and the lack of short-cutting. More parts and more assembly time required, which results in a more solidly finished product. Personally, while I started using anybody's holders, I wound up using Toyo's exclusively. I just thought they felt better... after this exercise I think I know why.

[Andrey Donchev]

Hi, I really don't want to hijack the tread, but I'm very curious and will use your presence, here, in this thread, Mr Droluk.
What's up with the whole plate holders?
About the Toyo 5x7 film holders. I remember, there was e thread regarding the interest of the forum members regarding such ones, but I don't remember a news about their actual release! I don't think that, there is Toyo 5x7 film holders on the market, or that, there will be!
Finally, I would like to thank you!
Every effort to preserve the art of traditional photography and the man's knowledge, collected in three centuries, in the field, receives my deep respect and appreciation!

Andy

[Sal Santamaura]

Actually, the ANSI thickness spec for thickness is different for 4x5 and 5x7 (0.520 vs. 0.562).

Our concern regarding thickness ultimately has to do with holder weight. Complying with both the ANSI "T" distance AND thickness spec's for 5x7 holders will lead to a heavier holder. Indeed, all of the samples we have seen so far are thinner than the ANSI spec, closer or the same as for 4x5... probably for the very same reason. Obviously meeting the "T" distance is mandatory, but thickness will likely not make a difference in any cameras that we are aware of... we would simply like to know what Toyo did...OK, I've reviewed my copies of the ANSI spec ranging from 1951 to 1988. There was never any change for "C" (thickness) -- it was always stated as 0.562 inch maximum.

Until Gary Smith initiated a thread here discussing the possibility of obtaining 5x7 holders from Toyo I didn't even know Toyo had ever made holders in that size. There was no mention of any in Toyo literature as far back as I could find any. So I can't comment on what an actual Toyo 5x7 holder's measurements are. However, I do have several brands of 4x5 and 8x10 holders, so here are some further data based on research and measurement this morning:

"C" (thickness) of 4x5:

ANSI - 0.520 inch maximum
Riteway - 0.441 through 0.449 inch
Toyo - 0.439 through 0.440 inch


"C" (thickness) of 8x10:

ANSI - 0.594 inch maximum
Lisco - 0.564 through 0.572 inch
Toyo - 0.570 inch everywhere

So it seems that Toyo's thickness is very consistent (like its T-depth) and somewhat or substantially less than the ANSI maximum depending on film size.


...Along with verifying overall dimensions, we have observed design and manufacturing differences between Toyo 4x5 and 8x10 holders... small details that have us wondering about their execution of the 5x7's...Again, I haven't seen a Toyo 5x7 holder, but can comment on differences in execution between their 4x5 and 8x10 holders.

My Toyo 8x10 holders are screwed together, have metal dark slides with metal pull handles, had mat black paint applied around their film guides and aperture edges during final assembly and are substantially heavier than my modern (plastic slides) Fidelity/Lisco holders.

My Toyo 4x5 holders are riveted together, have plastic dark slides with plastic handles, lack any mat black paint (though their design seems to avoid edge reflections that plague Fidelity/Lisco/Riteway holders) and weigh a bit less than their Burbank counterparts.

My preference for the Fotoman 5x7 holders is that they follow Toyo's 4x5 model, i.e. lighter rather than heavier. I'd suffer a few grams more weight if screw construction can be implemented instead of riveting but want the holder halves to be attached together one of those ways rather than welded.