Briot's Confession

[Doug Dolde]

"I make a living selling fine art photographs. I started selling my work full time in 1997. Since then, in just ten years, I made millions of dollars through the sales of photographic prints."

http://www.beautiful-landscape.com/Thoughts61.html

Congrats Alain if you're reading this (I bet you are :) )

[Brian Vuillemenot]

I'm wondering how much of his millions of dollars was made selling his tutorials on how to get rich selling landscape photographs...

[Doug Dolde]

Kinda like Donald Trump doing "How to get Rich" seminars ?

[artedetimo]

Over 10 years, millions of dollars could mean $100K a year in gross revenues...

[Greg Lockrey]

In some parts of the country, that's almost poverty level.:rolleyes: Perhaps that's why Allen has to do the tutorials along with selling his prints. Well, God bless him anyway. He is right, marketing is the name of the game.

[Duane Polcou]

I've made millions of dollars selling my prints, too. Of course, it wasn't US dollars. It was from purchases from a Banker in Africa representing a rich foreign national who contacted me on the internet to transfer funds to my bank account.

[archivue]

I've made millions of dollars selling my prints, too. Of course, it wasn't US dollars. It was from purchases from a Banker in Africa representing a rich foreign national who contacted me on the internet to transfer funds to my bank account.

i've just receive an email, it looks like they made an error, you have to transfert the money to my bank account !
;-)

[Brian C. Miller]

And this is news?... Kodak has a section on marketing for photographers, too.

HELLO! Obvious time here. Do yourself a favor, go over to Amazon and search for books on marketing.

(Oh, and Duane and archivue, thanks for investing in Big Bob's Bank of Nigeria, trailer house #35, with tellers in internet cafes the world over.)

[Marko]

I don't know, I always had that funny idea that the main purpose of a business is to turn a profit. The bigger the profit, the more successful the business.

Mr. Briot for his part states quite clearly, in the opening sentence, that photography is his business. He also says that in order to be effective, a professional photographer needs to have effective marketing. The rest of the article are just details.

So, why all the scorn?

[Ed Richards]

I agree with Marko. Briot has been honest about what he does, and has written a lot of useful info about trying to be an artist and a businessman. While it may be part of his business promotion, it is also useful reading. He unabashedly takes and sells pretty pictures, with no pretentious modern art overlay.

[cyrus]

Kinda like Donald Trump doing "How to get Rich" seminars ?

Inherent it. Donald did.

[Kirk Gittings]

A few words of wisdom from somebody who has been in this business for a very long time.........

Claiming "millions of dollars" through print sales is probably just another "marketing" technique. How many artist do you know who lead with the sales pitch "You should buy my work. Nobody else does".

[Michael Alpert]

I recently met a fellow who works as a chef in a small restaurant, has an old 8x10 and some equally old lenses, prints on Azo, makes a reasonable living through his cooking, and loves photography. I don't think he does any marketing. He certainly has no business plan. As far as I can tell from my conversation with him, he is extremely happy and leads a creative and meaningful life. This Briot web-site person lives in an alternative universe, or at least on an alternate planet. I can tell from his website that he is always-always selling himself, never feels secure or at home, knows that anyone who knows anything about photography will see his work as Schmaltz with a Western accent, and is forever trying to pry as much loot as he can out of anyone who may come to him for prints, workshops, consultations, books, posters, good-luck charms, or whatever. I see these two individuals as exemplars of distinct incompatible value systems. What if you had to choose between the two ways of life (and could not take the easy way out by saying that you would want something in between or some altogether different alternative), which way of life would you really want?

[brandonjscott]

I assume from the responses thus far that no one knows or has met Alain Briot and his wife Natalie. I have worked with Alain and Natalie, and my impression is that they feel a need to share the techniques that have made them successful. They do not charge large extraordinary amounts of money for their time, knowledge and experience, so I'm not really sure what the problem is here.

Art is a central focus to Alain's life, and one does not have to spend too much time reading his free essays to understand his dedication to expression through art. Marketing is necessary to make a living from creating art, so Alain has spent a good deal of time studying the necessary marketing skills and techniques so he can make a living while pursuing his passion. I'm not sure what is wrong with this either.

I can't imagine how anybody can make value and moral judgements about a person by reading an excerpt of a post on a forum. If you want to know what Alain is all about, call him; he'll gladly speek with you.

Brandon

[Marko]

Constant advertising, insecurity and living in a turmoil is a fact of life for anybody running their own business under the set of social rules collectively known as capitalism. Those who don't do it stand no chance of remaining in business for too long.

Just ask Bill Gates. The guy's got untold billions, been on the top of the world's richest people list for a decade, or at least very near it and yet he is notoriously paranoid and insecure.

For all we know (or don't), Briot might as well be a great gourmet cook in his spare time, but he advertises his business not his hobby. Does that chef-cum-photographer you mention actually own the restaurant or does he just work in it? If he does own it and is able to maintain steady business without marketing and even without a business plan, then he is either incredibly lucky or he won't last long. If he doesn't, than there is nothing for him to advertise anyway.

As someone who used to work for others and now owns part of a business, I think it is really unfair to berate someone as "Schmaltz", nevermind the accent, only because he (successfully) runs his own business and is unapologetic about it. Especially if you don't offer an insight in how you do it. Or at least how would you do it if you could.

[Kirk Gittings]

Frankly Michael, having been involved in the restaurant business through my wife, who is a professional chef, I know how difficult and consuming it is, leaving you little time to do anything else. It is just another romanticized "obscure happy artist" myth. How about none of the above.

[Marko]

One other thing.

All those who feel the need to berate somebody, anybody, for their accent would do themselves a huge favour if they remember that the person in question might actually speak English as a foreign language and very often not even the first or second foreign language at that.

Next, ask yourself how many languages can you speak at the level needed for intelligent discourse.

Then go ahead and ridicule to your heart's content if you still feel like it.

Nothing personal, just a thought.

[Greg Lockrey]

He is a very helpful guy. I've enjoyed his work and enthusiasm for quite some time. As for making "millions" in ten years, I have no doubt. Even little ole me with my humble custom printing service for artists here in the "Tundra" has done that, thank you. ;) From my perpective, he works too hard. :eek: But he know what it takes.

[Michael Alpert]

No, Kirk, this fellow is real, with a real camera. No myth, though very obscure. I was just offering a bit of criticism to a self-promoter who, frankly, I don't think has the goods. I realize that I used strong language. I would not apply that language to you or to any other accomplished photographer who produces fine work. It's the huckster aspect of the website that especially riles me. At the end, I asked a kind of Thoreauvian question which limits choice for the sake of clarity.

[Michael Alpert]

Marko,

You misunderstand me completely. I was referring to his photographs. I don't know how he speaks. I speak with an accent. My use of the word was a figure of speech.

[Greg Lockrey]

I'm getting a kick out of this thread, one huckster calling another a "huckster". I haven't met a professional photographer yet that didn't do at least a little huckstering. It's those poor "starving artists" I worry about. :rolleyes:

[Marko]

I'm getting a kick out of this thread, one huckster calling another a "huckster". I haven't met a professional photographer yet that didn't do at least a little huckstering. It's those poor "starving artists" I worry about. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't worry about those either - it's all about natural selection, you know. They either start hustling to put the food on the table or they select themselves out of the picture, if you'll pardon the pun. Personally, I'd be more inclined to ridicule the latter than the former. ;)

[Greg Lockrey]

You mean, an artist has to "prostitute" his work too? :eek:

[Marko]

It's the huckster aspect of the website that especially riles me. At the end, I asked a kind of Thoreauvian question which limits choice for the sake of clarity.

But why??? Why be so harsh on the fellow that tries to make for a living and does it pretty honestly, as far as I can tell.

It's his site, he's not peddling his wares here on the forum, as some of us do, more or less often... I understand that you may not like what he has to say and sell, but then again, you visited his site, not the other way around.

Speaking of Thoreauvian questions, I notice that you don't have a site of your own listed here. Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate your point by personal example?


Marko,

You misunderstand me completely. I was referring to his photographs. I don't know how he speaks. I speak with an accent. My use of the word was a figure of speech.

Well, I don't know how he speaks either, but I assumed that you read his site in order to criticize him. Allan is originally from France. He says that in the opening sentence of his Biography.

But even as a figure of speech it doesn't score any points, IMO. It's one of those ugly little ad hominems people resort to when they run out of real arguments.

[Michael Alpert]

Greg (and Marko),

If you reread my previous post, you will see that I was referring to the language on Alain Briot's website. I don't know him personally and would not characterize him as a huckster. (Broad terms like huckster and artist, starving or otherwise, mean little or nothing, especially when referring to a stranger.) Given that this is a forum of ideas, I think it is fair for me to speak against that website's rhetorical devices. Anyway, I have nothing more to say about this topic. Good luck.

[Kirk Gittings]

Michael,
I understand. My point, I guess. For many years, doing my art on the side, I made my living doing other things than with photography, having bought into the late sixties belief about keeping your art "pure". I was a welder, an auto mechanic, a union organizer etc. While I had some critical success with my photography, I did not make much money from it. It was a huge struggle to even find the time energy or resources to do it. So I decided, against my art school programing, horror of horrors, to try commercial work. That was 1978, 29 years ago. Ironically it is just as hard to find the time, will, et. to do my personal work now, because of the demands of a reasonably successful photo business. There is so much mythology about the life of an artists. It is so hard to make a living doing art photography without doing workshops writing, teaching etc. and being a huckster. I personally have to respect some artists marketing skills even if it is over the top and their artwork is not my cup of tea, because there are two sides to this profession and most people could use to learn a trick or too about selling yourself. It is just another skill to learn and use. Even Weston did every crappy portrait he could to pay the bills and buy some film and paper.

On the other hand I used to know a reasonably successful sculptor who introduced himself as Hi I'm, Blah Blah, The Famous Sculptor. No kidding.

[Marko]

You mean, an artist has to "prostitute" his work.:eek:

Well, they have to do something to buy the food and pay the rent, don't they?

Or perhaps they should do what all the big artists, mostly painters and sculptors, did throughout history - find a rich sugar daddy to support their visions in return for the family portrait or two?

:)

[Michael Alpert]

Kirk,

I certainly agree with what you just wrote. Sometimes aggressive "over the top" rhetoric strikes me as manipulative, and I react strongly to it. But I think I've said more than enough about this subject and want to let it drop.

[Duane Polcou]

I've worked for many years in marketing, and rare is the occasion when an exaggeration or outright lie does not accompany the context of sales pitch. This on the outset seems unethical, but competition can be so fierce between product lines that doing and saying outlandish things to gain an edge becomes the norm. And yes, if you are in business, a "portfolio" of photography is a product line and a "gallery" is a retail outlet. There is a reason why top logo and slogan designers get paid obscene
fees, because in a sliver of a moment they can stimulate the subliminal sense of immediate desire, even need. So you reach for your plastic. The moral? I don't have one. I photograph models for Skinemax DVD box art (some of them on 4x5!!) and spend up to 15 hours in Photoshop on one image to make college boys reach for their plastic. How is that for false advertising?
So Alain, my only complaint is that instead of "millions" you should have said "billions".

[artedetimo]

This on the outset seems unethical, but competition can be so fierce between product lines that doing and saying outlandish things to gain an edge becomes the norm. Doesn't mean its not unethical; just that everyone who wishes to compete must be. Survival trumps ethics, so people convince themselves that its a matter of survival.

I would say that the notion of the power of advertising is a little overblown. Yes customers have to know you're there for anything to happen in the first place, but the jump to making you "need" something takes a whole lot of Freudian manipulation of already existent tendencies than one marking person or even firm can accomplish.

Its funny because every marketing person I have met and dealt with (too many) seem to think that they as individuals have that ability to manipulate people into needing things. But when you see them in action its silly, almost laughable, that they think they can be so effective with the see through gimmicks and ploys they come up with. The manipulation that makes us NEED to have the 16 Mpix DSLR over the 8 is the endless onslaught of a whole society dependent on consumption as a form of survival. I think deep down we know that modern society depends on consumption so we are more likely to give in since it IS what makes our world go round.

For those with disposable income, buying that less than stellar print gives the guy a job so the buyer is a little less finicky about departing with the money, especially when it was so easy to "earn" it in the first place.

[Brian K]

If Briot is being honest in his claim, well good for him. It's not easy to make good money today in photography, if he's doing well more power to him.

[QT Luong]

My guess from reading material on Alain Briot's site is that he made most of his sales during a period when he had a booth on the south rim of the Grand Canyon. At that time his sales were so good that he could barely keep up with production. It is only after this opportunity ended that he began to offer workshops and other forms of instruction. Of course, one of the chief selling points of the workshops is that they are given by a very successful photographer. I do not know if his limited edition prints continue to sell well, but I do notice that currently he makes a lot of effort to push either smaller prints sold at special "promotional" prices or instructional products.

[Marko]

He would've been dishonest if it turns out he brought in less than 2 million, since that would be the smallest amount of millions. That would mean $200,000 per year over ten years that he says he's been in business full time. He doesn't say if it is his gross or his revenue, though.

Either way, while it is certainly not jaw-dropping, it is still a rather respectable amount for a photographer in a non-metropolitan area, I think. His work is nice and pretty much in line with most other photographers in similar areas and genre, he even has a similarly non-remarkable website.

Could it be that this is what really riles some of his peers?

:)

[Eric Biggerstaff]

More power to him!

While I might not like all of his work, there are some images that are very nice. If I could make what he says he has made I would stop my day job and go for it. There are several very good photographers who make a comfortable living selling images to people visiting our national parks, several own galleries close to the parks and are very good marketers. I doubt most of grand ideas about the artistic merit of their work, it is pretty and it sells; which is a great way to go.

I might not want to purchase this guys prints, or lessons, or portfolio boxes, or attend his workshops but I have to hand it to him, he is making a living doing what he loves to do - photography! Wish I could!

[Vaughn]

Thank, Brandon, for relating your personal experience with this photographer. I enjoyed several of his images on his website and wish him the best in his business and in his desire to pass on his love of photography.

It is a good thing that some of us here are not professional carpenters! The practise of "Cut first, measure later." would make for sloppy work.

Vaughn