PDA

View Full Version : Digital Negatives etc..



Sylvester Graham
6-May-2007, 09:35
Does anyone have any experience working with digital negatives? Or should I say, does anyone have any succesful experience working with them? I am coming across a living sitiuation where I'll no longer be able to have an enlarger, and am instead thinking of scanning in film and outputting it to an 8x10 digital negative for contact printing on silver paper.

I friend of mine tried this for a few months, with very little sucess. He ended up hating Dan Burkholder. (Dan's a great guy I'm sure)

Does anyone else have better strories, or maybe tips for beginners? Do you think it's possible for a digital negative that's been scanned from film printed onto traditional silver paper to reach the level of a regular silver print?

Would sending a file to a professional service be a better idea, and have them output onto a film?

Thanks-
-Alex

Marko
6-May-2007, 11:14
Just like with any technical discipline, you need to be able to comfortably control all three aspects of the process (input, processing and output) before you go into the more exotic techniques.

If you don't have much experience in any of those three aspects, perhaps you should start with regular paper inkjet prints before you move on to digital negatives. You will invariably make mistakes in the process and working with paper is both cheaper and simpler, since you can experiment in smaller formats at first and work your way up.

Brian Ellis
6-May-2007, 11:22
A few years ago I attended a lecture/brief workshop by a guy named Mark Nelson, who has a system for making enlarged negatives digitally that works well for him and also worked for a friend of mine who tried it. Like everything else digital, it's a slow learning process and I remember my friend had to call Mark a few times to get help but eventually he mastered it. You can learn more about the system, and order a CD that contains the teaching materials, at www.precisiondigitalnegatives.com.

bob carnie
6-May-2007, 12:32
I will second Mark Nelsons methods, He and Sandy King did a workshop here at Elevator and the students were easily producing platinums from digital negatives in three days.
I
A few years ago I attended a lecture/brief workshop by a guy named Mark Nelson, who has a system for making enlarged negatives digitally that works well for him and also worked for a friend of mine who tried it. Like everything else digital, it's a slow learning process and I remember my friend had to call Mark a few times to get help but eventually he mastered it. You can learn more about the system, and order a CD that contains the teaching materials, at www.precisiondigitalnegatives.com.

Wayne Crider
6-May-2007, 15:41
http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8

windpointphoto
6-May-2007, 18:09
If your friend had problems with Dan Burkholders methods, he was not following the instructions. I got the Inkjet Neg Companion, an Epson 2200 and the first one worked great for platinum printing.

Sylvester Graham
6-May-2007, 19:05
Thanks for the tips. I just wanted to clear up that I'm only a beginner in the realm of the digital negative. I'm very experienced with traditional film develpment methods, silver printing zone system etc... and I know my way around photoshop and an inkjet printer. I was just wondering if the results from a hybrid digital negative workflow can be comparative to the results I'm getting now.

I'm not looking to do platinum, probably more silver. Just wondering if there are any satisfied users printing onto silver, or if somone has seen great examples.

-Alex

Mark Carney
6-May-2007, 19:05
I've heard of success stories about digital negatives and platinum or some other alternative process. What if you just want to print to silver paper like Alex mentioned. Are the negatives produced by inkjets, Epson style, printers suitable for just plain old boring silver paper?

Mark

Brian Ellis
6-May-2007, 21:50
At the lecture I attended Mark Nelson exhibited some of his contact prints made from enlarged negatives using his method. I thought they were pretty impressive, especially since the original negatives were mostly 35mm or medium format IIRC and the contact prints were in the 11x14 range.

D. Bryant
6-May-2007, 22:42
I've heard of success stories about digital negatives and platinum or some other alternative process. What if you just want to print to silver paper like Alex mentioned. Are the negatives produced by inkjets, Epson style, printers suitable for just plain old boring silver paper?

Mark
Mark,

Since you asked, my experience using an Epson 2200 to make digital negatives for silver gelatin is that there is a lot of substrate grain visible in the print. I've tried VC and graded papers and find neither to be satisfactory or at least what one would expect by contact printing or enlarging LF in camera negatives.

Now I have heard from some users that have used the Epson 2400 that they have made prints from digital negatives for printing SG that are excellent, however I've never seen the actual prints so I can't substantiate that claim.

I've also looked at silver gelatin prints made from digital negs printed with an Epson 3800. Those look pretty good but the prints still have substrate grain. The substrate used for the 3800 negatives was Pictorico White Film, which is quite expensive, The are other brands of this type of material which are much more affordable which will probably give equal results.

In addition to the substrate grain there is the issue of ink grain that results from different colored inks being used to create the digital negative.

In short I've yet to see a silver gelatin print made from an inkjet negative that matches the look of a print made optically. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just haven't seen one.

For the record, I've used Mark Nelson's PDN system, Roy Harringtons Quad Tone RIP, and Michael Kotch Shulte's colored ink arrays and all failed to produce the results I wanted for silver gelatin prints. This really isn't a failure of those respective systems but rather a limitation of the resolving power of ink jet technology.

There have been new printers introduced in the past few months that may prove to break the silver gelatin barrier and I hope someone will report on those as time passes.

Don Bryant

sanking
10-May-2007, 10:11
For the record, I've used Mark Nelson's PDN system, Roy Harringtons Quad Tone RIP, and Michael Kotch Shulte's colored ink arrays and all failed to produce the results I wanted for silver gelatin prints. This really isn't a failure of those respective systems but rather a limitation of the resolving power of ink jet technology.

There have been new printers introduced in the past few months that may prove to break the silver gelatin barrier and I hope someone will report on those as time passes.

Don Bryant

I believe the Epson 1400 may meet the silver gelatin test. A few weeks ago I did some tests with this printer and was able to make prints on graded silver paper that had virtually the same smoothness as contact prints from in-camera negatives. Unfortunately the printer did not work for my purposes because of the low UV blocking of the Claria ink set, but for digital negatives for printing on silver gelatin graded papers the results were the best I have seen from any inkjet printer.


Sandy

D. Bryant
10-May-2007, 11:01
I believe the Epson 1400 may meet the silver gelatin test. A few weeks ago I did some tests with this printer and was able to make prints on graded silver paper that had virtually the same smoothness as contact prints from in-camera negatives. Unfortunately the printer did not work for my purposes because of the low UV blocking of the Claria ink set, but for digital negatives for printing on silver gelatin graded papers the results were the best I have seen from any inkjet printer.


Sandy
Hi Sandy,

I thought you may have mentioned this in another post somewhere. Do you recall if the Epson driver for the 1400 allows one to increase the ink deposition like the driver for the 2200 (and other later printers) does?

Thanks,

Don

sanking
10-May-2007, 11:27
Hi Sandy,

I thought you may have mentioned this in another post somewhere. Do you recall if the Epson driver for the 1400 allows one to increase the ink deposition like the driver for the 2200 (and other later printers) does?

Thanks,

Don

Don,

I could be mistaken, but my recollection is that the driver of the 1400 does not allow for heavier ink deposits. Too bad because the inks dry very fast and heavier deposits would make the printer useful for UV processes that require a higher contrast negative.

Sandy

steve simmons
11-May-2007, 06:15
Mark Nelson is doing a presentation on his method of making digital negs at the View Camera conference in Louisville June 29-July 1. He also did an article in View Camera magazine last fall.

steve simmons

PViapiano
11-May-2007, 09:08
How well does the Epson 3800 with K3 inks work for alternative process negs?

sanking
11-May-2007, 09:58
How well does the Epson 3800 with K3 inks work for alternative process negs?

It works great for alternative processes. For silver printing the Epsons R1800 and 1400 appear to give slightly smoother results.

Sandy King

Jeremy Moore
11-May-2007, 10:00
Kerik Kouklis has had great success with the 3800 in terms of making digital negatives. The K3 inks in general are great for digi-negs and the economy gained with the 17" printers (ink cart size vs. price) is also not something to be laughed at. There is also another photographer who is showing some very promising results using the 17" Canon iPF5000.

Kerik Kouklis
11-May-2007, 11:56
I can't recommend the 3800 highly enough! The digital negs are outstanding for alt process work. Just stay away from trying to colorize them. It's not necessary to get the densities needed for most alt processes and colorizing causes unwanted grittiness. RGB B&W images with a relatively minor correction curve are working extremely well for me. I haven't tried them on silver papers because I don't print that way. The prints from this printer are also simply outstanding.

neil poulsen
6-Jun-2007, 22:00
I can't recommend the 3800 highly enough! The digital negs are outstanding for alt process work. Just stay away from trying to colorize them. It's not necessary to get the densities needed for most alt processes and colorizing causes unwanted grittiness. RGB B&W images with a relatively minor correction curve are working extremely well for me. I haven't tried them on silver papers because I don't print that way. The prints from this printer are also simply outstanding.

Kerik, Are you just using black, gray, and light gray? Also, are you using Photo Black or Matte Black? Are you using either Burkholder's or Nelson's approach? I ask, because Burkholder's method to some degree makes use of all four colors, R, G, B, and K. At least, I believe this is the case that results from turning off all color management. I know that negatives using his method have a slight greenish cast. So, I wonder about the real difference between colorizing and using the Burkholder method? Maybe it's just a matter of degree?

Using the 3800, has anyone experienced vertical banding (at right angles to the print head direction of travel) in continuous tone areas that's characteristic of the Epson K2 printers? I've experienced this with my 4000, and I know that it can occur with the 9600. While apparent on transparent media, they are not apparent on regular papers used for pigmented ink like the K2 inks.

I'm also wondering about pinholes on the 3800. I was getting some random pinholes, or at least I thought they were random until I tried using Matte Black for digital negatives. Then the really surfaced and in a way that pointed a finger at the 4000. I normally use Photo Black for negatives, but was doing some experimentation.

Kerik Kouklis
7-Jun-2007, 13:45
Neil,

Go here for more info:

http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244&highlight=3800+success

No banding, no pinholes, great SMOOTH negs.