Ebony SV45Ti

[JPlomley]

Hello everyone. I am a newbie to LF having shot 35mm and Mamiya 6x7 for the last 15 years. I dipped my toes into full frame digital for about six months and got out of that water quickly. I've been perusing this forum for some time gathering as much information as possible. I have digested as much as I can from Leslie Strobel's and Steve Simmon's excellent books and am about to put my money down on an Ebony SV45Ti as I feel this camera has all the movements I will ever require for landscape photography. I will continue to shoot chromes and eagerly await the rebirth of Velvia 50 this spring/summer. Lens selection is proving difficult. Many 4x5 landscape photographers I have spoken with swear by German glass, while others claim it is very difficult to see a difference between the big four when your at this level. I guess this is just something I will need to sort out by trial and error, but I am digressing from my question which is very simple. Does the SV45Ti have a scale on the bed in order to determine focus spread? I cannot tell from the images that Ebony has posted on their website. As well, just how useful is the Rodenstock DOF calculator? If you have nailed your focus plane, computed the focus spread, set the focus point to the median, and calculated the f-stop for a given coc, is this tool really necessary? Thanks in advance for all responses and for a top drawer forum.

[Ed Richards]

You can always tape a small rule to the bed, if this is the camera you really want. I am in the "any modern lens is good enough" camp, with the caveat that some old ones are pretty good too. Even with chromes, any variablity in color between makes and lenses gets corrected in the scanning.

[Jack Flesher]

My .02:

1) If you are going to buy an Ebony, buy one made from ebony wood, not mahogany. The ebony versions are more rigid and durable than the mahogany versions, though they do weigh more and cost more. The ebony versions also hold their re-sale value significantly better. (IOW, my recommendation is at least get the TE instead of the Ti; it's only another $300 and you'll be LOTS happier in the long run. If you're set on mahogany, I'd consider the simpler, lighter RW45 at nearly half the cost of the SV, but even then I'd get the ebony version.)

2) There is not a scale on the bed of Ebony cameras, though as stated by Ed, one could be added.

3) The calculator works, and it has its own ruler built in so you can measure the change in distance for the DoF calc. But after a bit of time, you will develop a kind of Zen understanding of what aperture you need to get the desired result, at least at normal working distances. (The distance difference between near/far standard spread is reasonably consistent.) I still carry the calculator for closer-up work since the near/far total spread tends to vary more widely as you work close.

4) I am of the camp that all of the top four make (made) top-class glass and you can't go too wrong with any of the newer versions from any of them.

4a) I am also from the camp that each manufacturer imparts its own personality to their lenses -- a color/tone/smoothness signature if you prefer -- and this is more easily visible throughout the lens line with the German lenses.

4b) That said, many OLDER lenses have great personalities too :D

All my .02 only, and realize it's hard for me to know what you'll prefer. The good news is if you stick with modern, known and popular brands of LF gear, it's always pretty easy to sell right here, and thus harder to make a big mistake.

Cheers,

[JPlomley]

Cheers for the feedback Jack. I'm the guy that sent you the email concerning the warranty on the Nikkor 120 Am (ED) you listed not too long ago. By the time I had decided to buy it, someone beat me to the punch. I'm amazed how well LF gear sells in this digital era...almost as fast as Leica M. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that film is going to be around for a while, and certainly Fuji's re-introduction of Velvia 50 is a good sign.

Ed-I will indeed be scanning the chromes and tweaking in PS in order to print on my Epson 7800. I suspect though that with the gain in quality I'm expecting from 4x5, my 7800 will be up for sale with a 9800 waiting in the wings.

[Dave_B]

I have the Ebony SV45TE. As Jack said, the Ebony version of this camera is rock solid. I am quite happy with mine. It will be all the 4x5 camera you will ever need. If you are certain that you will stay with LF photography, your first camera could be your last with this purchase. I, like most people, took a more gradual approach and worked my way up via a series of less expensive cameras until I finally got my Ebony to reward myself for being such a fine fellow (actually it was a milestone birthday present to myself). It will certainly take you a while to master it but you will never regret owning it. I have used mine with lenses from 47 to 720mm.
As far as lenses are concerned, you can do everything from buy three or four name brand ones on Ebay and be happy forever taking fine photographs to finding yourself more interested in lenses than photography and end up with dozens, always searching for a better one. Most of us on this forum reside somewhere between those two limits. The differences in the name brand lenses are pretty minor, really matters of taste, not one being better than the other. I like Nikkors but can't really argue that they are better. I just like their contrast and color rendition. Usually things like speed, size, weight, cost, filter size, IC, etc. end up mattering more to you than brand. Lens to lens variations in a particular model can be larger than differences between brands. When you buy a lens, it is a good idea to do so in a way that allows you to return a dog. Caltars are rebranded Schneiders and Rodenstocks and are a way to get good lenses on the cheap. Anyway LF is great fun and the folks here always willing to help.
Cheers,
Dave B.

[Brian Ellis]

"If you are going to buy an Ebony, buy one made from ebony wood, not mahogany. The ebony versions are more rigid and durable than the mahogany versions, though they do weigh more and cost more. The ebony versions also hold their re-sale value significantly better. (IOW, my recommendation is at least get the TE instead of the Ti; it's only another $300 and you'll be LOTS happier in the long run"

I have to respectfully disagree about the differences between the two woods. I first bought the Ti because of its lower weight. Then when it wasn't as solid, smooth, and precise as I was expecting from the glowing remarks I had read here and elsewhere I thought that perhaps the ebony version would be better in those respects. So I traded the Ti in on a Te. I found no difference between the two woods in terms of rigidity, smoothness, precision, etc., both were the same on mine (i.e. very good for a wood camera but not even close to the Linhof Technika V I had been using). After about a year of using the Te but not liking it very much I finally surrendered and replaced it with another Technika. I think that if I had to buy either a Te or Ti I'd buy the Ti because of its lower weight and (in my experience at least) equality in all other respects to the Te, plus I happen to like its looks better.

I can't comment on resale value of the Te vs the Ti since I disposed of my Ti by trade-in except to say I'm surprised to learn that there's a significant difference between the two relative to original prices, I wouldn't have expected that.

With respect to the ruler and calculator - I taped a mm ruler to the bed of my Ebonys, as I've done with all other LF cameras I've used ,and it worked fine. I've never tried the Rodenstock calculator. However, I used to be a big user of camera gadgets for one thing or another, such as the pocket computer I used to carry around and use for calculating exposures, development times, etc. I'm not knocking anyone who uses a lot of ancillary equipment, whatever works is fine, but for me I've found that the fewer gadgets I have to deal with the more I enjoy photography. So I've never been tempted to try the Rodenstock calculator.

[Jack Flesher]

Regarding Ebony cameras that are not rigid...

This was one of my peeves over my Ebony and in fact was going to sell a 45SU because of it. However, I myself only recently learned (thanks Don!) that the tolerance between the focus rails and the track they ride in is user-adjustable by tightening down the outside pairs of screws at either end of the right and left metal focus rail caps(!) I live in a relatively dry climate and the tracks on my 45SU were loose, being very near sloppy when fully extended. Yet a very slight turn to the screws -- like 1/16th of a turn on each of the 8 outermost screws -- took almost all of the slop out of the system and the camera is quite rigid now even fully extended.

Apparently, Ebony built this feature in as they knew their cameras would be used in a variety of humidity conditions -- wood swells in wet climates and shrinks in dry ones -- and I assumed they used ebony wood for that very reason; FWIW, ebony wood (and other oily hardwoods) is less affected by humidity than lighter woods like mahogany are, regardless of who makes the camera.

While any camera certainly can be old and worn out, or have sprung standards, I suspect most non-abused Ebony cameras would tighten up nicely trying the above...

Cheers,

[adrian tyler]

my45su is "adjusted" as jack says for spain, when i go to scotland i have to un-adjust as the thing becomes almost un-movable (ie super solid). i'd have stuck with a technika but i use back front/back drop a lot.

[Frank Petronio]

I'm sure a top of the line Ebony is wonderful, but as many similar threads have pointed out, you rarely need such an expensive first camera to make successful photos. And in fact there may be a good benefit of "dating" several different kinds of cameras for a while so you know what really suits you best. There are a lot of really great $500 to $1500 worth trying out, and thanks to eBay you can break even on the resale... so you may find that you really "click" with one and not the other... if you are somehow starved for movements you should probably look at one of the more field-orientated monorails, like the Arca. But chances are also good that you will be fine with a much simplier camera with less movements.

And while a luxury Ebony is a lovely camera, sometimes the less expensive, simple and "this is all I need" approach results in a tool that you can actually USE instead of just admiring it.

As for glass, it used to matter in commercial photography because you wanted your transparencies to match between lenses. It really doesn't matter anymore, although I still rather be a brand loyalist when given the option.

I'd just get a Wista and a "normal" 150-180mm lens and go play for abit, then use what you learned to make an informed decision customized for yourself.

As far as scales and gadgets, I had 'em on some cameras like the Sinars but I never bothered. The idea is to trust your eyes on the ground glass, not some gadget. You're be a better, more confident photographer for it.

[Sal Santamaura]

Take a look at this FAQ, particularly questions 1 and 3:

http://www.ebonycamera.com/articles/FAQ.html

I own two Ebonys, both mahogany, both larger than 4x5, and can't imagine ebony versions being any more rigid. I also own or have owned five 4x5 cameras, including a Horseman 45 FA, Horseman 450 monorail, Wista VX, Toyo D45M monorail and a Phillips, all purchased new. For the landscape application you intend, unless you regularly use a 450mm lens for a substantial percentage of your exposures, it would be difficult to conceive of camera rigidity as a factor.

I suggest you go with an SV45Ti unless the unique Phillips design appeals. In the latter case, check with Dick Phillips ASAP to see whether he's making any right now.

After photographing using a mm scale and not, I've lately settled on not. As long as you have no vision problems that interfere with making a good evaluation of the focusing screen (in 4x5 I recommend a Maxwell regardless of which camera you end up with), I've found that experience will work just as well as calculations.

[Doug Dolde]

I'd be sure to budget in an extre $265 for a Maxwell screen. The stock screen is pretty bad in my opinion.

[Eric James]

Consider the RW45E, if you think 4X5 is big enough, and 300mm is long enough.

[JPlomley]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I now have some concerns about the Ebony SV45Ti given the issues of stability and smoothness of operation. My other consideration was the Arca F-Line field camera, but I decided against it since extra braces are required when using telephotos (to the tripod, as illustrated by Dykinga), and then there is the extra rail required etc etc. So it just seemed like a lot more accessories to carry into the field than what I was really after. I guess it's back to the drawing board...

[Michael Gordon]

I now have some concerns about the Ebony SV45Ti given the issues of stability and smoothness of operation.

I'd get your hands on one and make the decision for yourself rather than letting others decide for you.

I have an SVT45i and find it both smooth and rigid *enough* for what I do with it (landscape). Comparing metal to wood is apples vs. oranges. Obviously most wood cameras will generally be less rigid than metal. I went with the SV45Ti because there is no other 4x5 that offers the range of movements that the SV45Ti does at this weight and size, other than a Canham (and I don't care for the Canham comparatively).

[JPlomley]

Cheers Michael. Just visited your website. Absolutely stunning work! I remember seeing some of your fine images in the Jan/Feb 2007 issue of the View Camera shot with the Ebony SV45Ti. I'm definately interested in your workshop schedule for the fall. I"m going to spend the summer learning basic view camera techniques before I take a major trip. I'm located in Montreal, Canada...so Vermont (Green Mountains), New Hampshire (White Mountains), and the Adirondacks are right in my back yard. Perfect locations for practicing. Really appreciate your feedback. In fact I am signed up for a workshop with Rob Skeoch (Big Camera Workshops) in a few weeks and will have the chance to evaluate the Ebony at that point. Should facilitate the decision making process.

[Eric James]

...I now have some concerns about the Ebony SV45Ti given the issues of stability and smoothness of operation...

All you need to know to calm your fears is here:



I have an SVT45i and find it both smooth and rigid *enough* for what I do with it...

Dive in JPlomley - if 4X5 is large enough!

[Ted Harris]

Hello JPlomley,

From a neighbor slightly south. I'll chime in as a minority voice ... I don't like Ebony cameras, not at all. I have used them and still don't like them, nothing aginst them it is just a matterof taste. I have found over time that I much prefer the feel of metal cameras. While you are at Rob's workshop take a hard look at the Canham and Toyo cameras as well as the Ebonys and see which you prefer. I use both a Toyo 45AII and a Canham 57T. Yes the Canham I use is a wood camera but can more accurately be described as a metal camera in a wood box.

See my email on some other workshops of interest.

[PViapiano]

I have an Ebony 45s non-folder...an absolutely wonderful camera.

If you're just starting out I wouldn't worry about mounting telephotos just yet, they're very rarely used by most LF practitioners anyway. They can be extremely heavy for 4x5s, hence the braces used by Dykinga, and I would imagine his metal camera to be a better support for them than any wood camera.

Listen to Michael Gordon above, he has the best advice in this area...

When I started out not too long ago, people told me that if I was used to working with my Mamiya RZ, I'd hate working with a wood camera, missing the precision, etc...well, they were wrong. They're two different animals...

Will a metal camera feel more sturdy and be geared more precisely...probably yes. But as Michael said above it's apples vs oranges. Try a bunch out in the field and decide what fits you.

And by the way...the stock screen is plenty bright enough.

Also, there's been a little bit of an anti-Ebony bias among some on this forum for as long as I can remember, but the thing to remember is that it's the photographer, not the camera, not the lens, that matters.

[JPlomley]

Hi Ted:

Thanks for the workshop info. I thought I was getting into a format of photography where there were very few practitioners (my colleagues shooting digital can't believe I'm going back to film, let alone trying large format), so I am just delighted that there are so many experts close by that can help out.

Jeff

[Jack Flesher]

I'll chime in as a minority voice ... I don't like Ebony cameras, not at all. I have used them and still don't like them, nothing aginst them it is just a matterof taste. I have found over time that I much prefer the feel of metal cameras.

Ted,

That's pretty much how I felt until I specifically used a 45SU NON-folder. There's just something about that camera that allows me to work more intuitively. I realize it isn't for everybody, but that model is different enough from other cameras that its definitely worth a test-spin if one gets the opportunity :cool:

(Edit: The Arca-Swiss F-Metric with micrometric Orbix appeals to the exacting engineer in me, while the Ebony 45SU appeals to the disheveled artist in me :D )

Cheers,

[Frank Petronio]

If you follow people's buying histories, you'll see a lot of folks spending a lot of money on Ebonies only to switch over to an Arca (or Technikas) after a season. You hardly ever hear of someone going from an Arca to and Ebony, unless it is as a compact second camera, and usually one of the non-folding, wide angle designs.

I think the Ebonies are charming. But for about the same money you can get into an Arca that is definitely more stable and precise. While they maybe "colder" their quality still comes through, and afterall, they are meant to be tools. Plus I don't think the size or packing difference is all that big a deal... if pack size was so important we'd all be using flyweight Ikedas and Tohos.

If the Ebony appeals so strongly that it overcomes the negative factors of the price and "not as stiff as my $750 Toyo A" :p then why even bother fretting about it? It is a wonderful camera no question -- use it and enjoy it.

[Ted Harris]

Jack, just my feelings and only relevant to me. As pointed out above, and as we all know, the photographer counts way more than he camera, lens or film. As I mentioned, I used an Ebony extensively for a month. Probably ran 100 sheets of film through it and the images were fine. Camera just wasn't my thing. But if it was the camera I had I would make it sing. BTW, I do bow to others on the non folders as i have never used one. By their very nature I am assuming more rigidity.

[Jack Flesher]

BTW, I do bow to others on the non folders as i have never used one. By their very nature I am assuming more rigidity.

I hear you Ted -- and I was talking about the non-folder. In addition to being more rigid, I would also add they are a lot less "fussy" to use than a folder in general.

Cheers,

[Robert Fisher]

Guys, I see B&H says the Arcas use "lightweight metal alloys". Considering the cost of an Arca, that surely must be titanium like Ebony uses, right?

[Eric James]

Ti is roughly 1.7X the density of Al, but comparing the Arca to the Ebony based on metal character is like comparing apples and pomegranates based on penis size.

[Robert Fisher]

Ti is roughly 1.7X the density of Al, but comparing the Arca to the Ebony based on metal character is like comparing apples and pomegranates based on penis size.

Eric, what an intellect you are. Does this statement reveal some type of activity you and your four legged friends are involved in?

Oh, the original question was asked in jest. Perhaps it escaped you or do you have an agenda?

[Jack Flesher]

Guys, I see B&H says the Arcas use "lightweight metal alloys". Considering the cost of an Arca, that surely must be titanium like Ebony uses, right?

Surely you jest Robert :D

If you've never actually adjusted or used one, it is hard to fathom justification for the Arca cost. The fact is that Arcas are so darn expensive because of their smoothness, design and precision. They truly are optical benches and not just another rail camera. For example, the Metric uses geared tracks for rise and shift, yet neither of these adjustments has a lock to tighten up the track -- nor do they need it. I can dial in 30mm of front rise and shoot, yet still push on the standards and there is no slop at all in the camera system.

Focus is buttery smooth and does lock, and it is a concentric lock just behind the focus knob; I only need one hand to focus and use the same hand to lock that focus. Are you listening Ebony? Moreover, when I tighten the lock there is no free hand to hold the focus knob in place, yet focus does not change at all as I tighten the lock. Very slick.

Swing will lock on the Arca and it has zero detents as does base tilt. Yet I can dial in 1/2 degree of swing (or tilt) and lock it down part way out of the detent -- try that with any other camera with detents and it won't work very well as you'll continually be fighting against the detent.

But in the end I recognise it is only a light-tight box, just like any other view camera...

Cheers,

[Eric Brody]

I have not used an Ebony, with Ted I am firmly in the metal camera camp. I have watched friends use their Ebonys and they do seem a bit "fiddly" to me... and to some of them. However, as a non-owner, that's irrelevant. I agree that a "starter" camera is not a bad idea. I bought a Toyo 45A and used it for quite some time, and found it not to be the limiting factor in my photography. For a milestone birthday I treated myself to an Arca Field and believe it to be my last camera, I am over 60 after all. The Arca is as described, it is a finely tuned precision machine, rock solid, easy to use, with a bright screen and I am glad I did not start with one. I'd be disappointed to buy a multi-thousand dollar view camera and have to purchase an accessory screen because the stock one is too dark. What could the manufacturer of that camera be thinking? I bought my Toyo from the old Helix in Chicago when I lived there in another life. I almost bought an old Arca A or B because I saw a photo of Ansel with one somewhere.

I also am in the camp that says all the modern glass is pretty close and things like aperture matter more than brand. I personally use one Fuji, my first lens, a 210, and all the rest from 75 through 360 are Nikkor. I'd match the quality against any manufacturer. Again, like my comment about the camera, the quality of my lenses is not the limiting factor in my photography.

Get what you like, hopefully it will be easy to separate the bs comments from those that seem somewhat rational. The main thing is to get out use the camera instead of spending endless hours on internet forums (fora?) like many of us do. My excuse is that I usually read and post when it's dark outside.

Good luck.

Eric

[Rakesh Malik]

Also, there's been a little bit of an anti-Ebony bias among some on this forum for as long as I can remember, but the thing to remember is that it's the photographer, not the camera, not the lens, that matters.


I doesn't seem to me that it's an anti-Ebony thing, it's just that the choice of cameras is very personal, and some people don't like the way that the Ebony cameras work.

There's nothing wrong with that... because in the end, the best camera is the one you use. If you have a camera that sits around gathering dust, it's not a good camera, simply based on the fact that you're not using it.

Personally, I like my Ebony a lot. One thing that some people might not realize is that although it's a wooden camera, the hardware (locking knobs, focussing gears, etc) are all made of titanium, so it moves a lot better than you might expect a wooden camera to move.

That won't change the fact that if you don't like the ergonomics, you won't like the camera, but I wouldn't worry about stability with an Ebony, even if it's made of mahogany rather than ebony. You will, however, need a robust ballhead if you want to use longer lenses on it. I happen to like using longer lenses (I have a 500/720mm Nikkor) on mine, and it works well with them.

[Rakesh Malik]

Get what you like, hopefully it will be easy to separate the bs comments from those that seem somewhat rational. The main thing is to get out use the camera instead of spending endless hours on internet forums (fora?) like many of us do. My excuse is that I usually read and post when it's dark outside.


I like my excuse better -- I read and post while at work ;)

[Herb Cunningham]

Personal taste is what it comes down to. Ihave had three Ebony's none now. Arca works for me, especially the larger formats that have a bail on the film holder insert-and the other features mentioned above.

As to using very long telephoto's, I would hesitate trying a heavy lens like a Nikon 800mm on any wood 4x5, and the 1200 is a no go on any folder I know of due to bellows extension.

Go cheap and shoot. Then spend serious money.

[JPlomley]

Cheers everyone for the excellent feedback. I ended purchasing the Ebony SV45TE right after taking Rob Skeoch's workshop (which was top drawer in every respect). Started with the Fujinon CM-W 135mm based upon input from a landscape photographer who shoots nothing but Schneider except for this one Fujinon optic due to it's incredible sharpness (which he claims beats his other Schneider optics). Also ordered a Maxwell screen to replace the Ebony-light fall off is horrible. Other than that, no complaints. Folding is a bit awkward, but I'm a newbie so that is to be expected. After messing around for a day it became straightforward (we'll see though as I'm running around like a blue-arsed fly just how easy setting up becomes). Only thing I need to get my hands on is some sort of distance scale I can adhere to the bed so that I can calculate the median and the requisite aperture for a given coc. Any ideas?