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Hugo Zhang
17-Mar-2007, 00:48
Who the heck is Chamonix?

Well, it's a small town nestled at the foot of the Alps. Why does this ski resort have anything to do with wooden cameras?

The story goes that many years ago a Chinese mountaineer/LF photographer travelled and stayed there for a week and fell in love with this town of Chamonix. The only regret he felt about his wonderful trip was that his 12x20 camera and holders were simply too heavy for mountain climbing.

Returning back to China, he was determined to design and build a rigid but light-weight wooden camera for his mountain trips. Of course he copied some good parts from other camera manufactueres, but not mindlessly. He built his first camera in 2002, his photographer friends in China like his camera and asked him to build cameras for them. So he found a small factory in southern China and assembled 8 skilled craftmen to build wooden cameras. In 2004, he named his camera Chamonix for his love of that mountain village.

This love of beautiful camera has grown into a business. He and his workers have made and sold some 200 cameras in China and other countries in Asia. Unlike Shenhao, Chamonix has a cult-like following in China because it is a camera designed by a landscape photographer and made for landscape photographers. Light-weight, strong, very functional and beautiful workmanship.

I got to know Chamonix because I needed to have film holders custom made for my 10x20 camera. I was so impressed by those holders and decided to find home for some of their ULF cameras here.

After much probing, we have come to the conclusion that the traditional distribution method is simply too expensive and time consuming. Operation costs like dealer's markup, inventory and double shipping, will have to be added to customers final bill. So we would like to try a factory direct method. I will collect payments here and the factory will ship the camera to your door.

We have a few cameras each in the size of 7x17, 8x20, 12x20 and 20x24. One 14x17 left. Those fine cameras will be very attractively priced and will be sold first come first serve. After these cameras are sold, future orders will have six month waiting period. Because US government puts great pressure for the Chinese to revalue RMB, those who buy China-made stuff later may pay a higher price in dollars. I will post technical information and prices at For Sale section early next week. Chamonix also makes 4x5, 4x10, 5x7, 5x8 and 8x10 cameras and has inventory in some sizes.

OK, Hugo, you have done a nice pre-sales job for Chamonix so far. Some of us are really tempted to get our hands on these modestly priced and beautifully made Chamonix. What is the caveat?

1. The Chamonix is a relatively young company. As with all young companies, it needs time to build its fame.

2. Chamonix cameras were designed and built for landscape photographers. It is not as stronger and as heavy as Deardorff.

3. So far, less than 1% of its cameras has returned to the factory for repairs. The factory has a 20 month warranty period. If your camera needs repair in China, it's a long trip.

4. The owner of Chamonix is still learning to balance his passion for landscape photography and his duty as a business man. There are times I can't reach him for weeks because he is traveling in some remote area in China taking pictures.

5. Chamonix has no offices in US and Hugo is the only contact person. He has a full time job and he will try his best to help everyone. But there is no assurance that all inquiry will be answered in a timely manner.

Finally, I want to thank Kerry and Michael on behalf of Chamonix. They have spent their valuable time to introduce Chamonix to folks here. I also want to thank people at the View Camera magazine.

Emmanuel BIGLER
17-Mar-2007, 05:10
Seems like a good idea to use the name of well-known place in the Alps for a new field camera, but according to the French Institut National de la Propriété Industrielle (INPI)....
http://www.icimarques.com/
....Chamonix® is already a registered trade mark, registered at least 6 times as French trademark and at least once as an international trademark... at least in the French INPI records...

.. and is also a registered trademark in the USA...
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=toc&state=qjjdj7.1.1&p_search=searchss&p_L=50&BackReference=&p_plural=yes&p_s_PARA1=&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA1%24LD&expr=PARA1+AND+PARA2&p_s_PARA2=chamonix&p_tagrepl%7E%3A=PARA2%24COMB&p_op_ALL=AND&a_default=search&a_search=Submit+Query&a_search=Submit+Query
But I do not expect a trademark battle between lawyers as hard as if the new camera was branded "Champagne" ;-)

Reminds me a Japanese brand of Hi-Fi equipment, 'Alpine' ;-)

Good luck !

Hugo Zhang
17-Mar-2007, 06:38
Thanks for the information, Emmanuel! So here is another caveat:

7. You will be using a wooden camera with questionable trade mark issues, the factory may have to change the camera's name when forced to.

Walter Calahan
17-Mar-2007, 06:46
I've been to Chamonix. Beautiful beautiful town, valley, and state of mind.

It's is interesting that in France and the US one can trademark a town's name. Imagine trademarking New York or Paris or London or Moscow?

I'm sure the trademarks are not for competitive cameras. Since Chamonix is registered at least 6 times, then it is reasonable to assume it can be registered a 7th time for this camera company. Unless there is another camera manufacturer using the name.

GPS
17-Mar-2007, 07:09
....
Returning back to China, he was determined to design and build a rigid but light-weight wooden camera for his mountain trips. Of course he copied some good parts from other camera manufactueres, but not mindlessly.
...


Seems like a good idea to use the name of well-known place in the Alps for a new field camera, but according to the French Institut National de la Propriété Industrielle (INPI)....
http://www.icimarques.com/
....Chamonix® is already a registered trade mark, registered at least 6 times as French trademark and at least once as an international trademark... at least in the French INPI records...

.. and is also a registered trademark in the USA...


Trademarked? As if that were any problem for the Chinese! For China to become a free and successful democratic country it must learn much ,much more than just copying and stealing what the people in other democratic countries have created. Seems that the Chinese photographer didn't get the idea while admiring Chamonix.

Bruce Schultz
17-Mar-2007, 07:22
Sooooo.....what are the prices for the cameras? How much is shipping?

David Karp
17-Mar-2007, 08:42
Is this the enterprise that Kerry is involved with? Can you tell us when your website will be fully operational with all of the information, including specs and pricing?

David Karp
17-Mar-2007, 08:46
I am not an intellectual property lawyer, but I worked for a company that used place names for its product lines for the precise reason that it was extremely difficult (at least under U.S. I.P. law) to claim I.P. rights in the name unless there was a confusingly similar product line out there already. This is not legal advice, but if you are concerned a quick trip to an I.P. lawyer should sort things out.

wfwhitaker
17-Mar-2007, 09:55
...4. The owner of Chamonix is still learning to balance his passion for landscape photography and his duty as a business man. There are times I can't reach him for weeks because he is traveling in some remote area in China taking pictures...

Wow, almost Wisner-esque!


...Finally, I want to thank Kerry and Michael on behalf of Chamonix. They have spent their valuable time to introduce Chamonix to folks here. I also want to thank people at the View Camera magazine.

From the looks of it, you should thank Dick Phillips, too.

Kerry L. Thalmann
17-Mar-2007, 12:24
Is this the enterprise that Kerry is involved with?

As a matter of public record, I want it to be clear that I, Kerry L. Thalmann, do not use, recommend, endorse, import, distribute, sell, service or support Chamonix cameras or film holders. I do not represent the company in any capacity. Henceforth, I do not want my name associated with the Chamonix products or their business dealings in any way, shape or form.

Sincerely,
Kerry L. Thalmann

Ash
17-Mar-2007, 12:30
Uhhrrrmm.. They look good. But I bet the price doesnt.

As for trademarking. I'm sure that won't be an issue. Something like "Chamonix-Camera" which is a new word and blah blah blah (check Henry Scherer's ZeissCamera explanation). Of course "To lower production costs the name is abbreviated to Chamonix for all name plates"

David Karp
17-Mar-2007, 13:08
As a matter of public record, I want it to be clear that I, Kerry L. Thalmann, do not use, recommend, endorse, import, distribute, sell, service or support Chamonix cameras or film holders. I do not represent the company in any capacity. Henceforth, I do not want my name associated with the Chamonix products or their business dealings in any way, shape or form.

Sincerely,
Kerry L. Thalmann

Sorry. My mistake.

Ted Harris
17-Mar-2007, 13:35
As a matter of public record, I want it to be clear that I, Kerry L. Thalmann, do not use, recommend, endorse, import, distribute, sell, service or support Chamonix cameras or film holders. I do not represent the company in any capacity. Henceforth, I do not want my name associated with the Chamonix products or their business dealings in any way, shape or form.


Please note that the article in the March-April issue of View Camera Magazine reflected the situation at the time the article was written and the magazine published. The upcoming article on ULF film holders will reflect the new situation that Kerry describes above.

David A. Goldfarb
17-Mar-2007, 14:26
As a matter of public record, I want it to be clear that I, Kerry L. Thalmann, do not use, recommend, endorse, import, distribute, sell, service or support Chamonix cameras or film holders. I do not represent the company in any capacity. Henceforth, I do not want my name associated with the Chamonix products or their business dealings in any way, shape or form.

Sincerely,
Kerry L. Thalmann

I kind of suspected that. Glad I got such a nice deal on that Korona 7x17"!

e
17-Mar-2007, 16:26
Sounds like Chaminox wants 100% of our US money for themselves. Low cost Chinese labor and nothing dollarwise for legitimate US dealer/distributors. Good Luck Chaminox. A low price yes, but do you really expect US buyers to wire you thousands of their hard earned dollars to a private overseas bank account on the expectation and promise of a 6 month delivery? Shen-Hao doesnt even have the balls to do that and no one is jumping up and praising their ethical standards although their service has been pretty good despite the language difficulties. If your intention is to take over the world ULF camera market with bargain basement pricing instead of real trade relations and customer service through a legitimate American distributor, I would have you reconsider if you really want to sell cameras here in the US. Buyer beware. Emile/www.deleon-ulf.com

e
17-Mar-2007, 17:24
No Sour grapes here! I happen to think Chamonix has some really neat cameras to sell as I'm sure others do as well. But anyone who doesnt see what is really going on here must be blind. I know it is in the individuals interest to get the best price on their merchandise but this forum has been specifically warned by Chaminox's only speaking voice between the customer and the manufacturer. "It is a long way to China and we might not be around for weeks to take your call" I'm paraphrasing here. This statement means to me that Chaminox might not be around (maybe even if they don't feel like it) to answer your your calls or problems.... If that is a good definition of a legitimate marketplace approach to many thousands of dollars worth of equipment... go ahead..... send them 4 to 5 grand.....Good Luck! This all of course could be all avoided by the integration of a real US distributor which would handle sales as well as the problems that inevitably arise. I myself was interested in their 16x20, I had asked Kerry about it last week.....I was real interested in it....until I read this thread!

e
17-Mar-2007, 18:10
Hmmmm..seems the Sour Grapes thread between my last two replies was deleted...

Jim Rhoades
17-Mar-2007, 18:43
I'm sorry to be reading this thread. Having bought my favorite 5x7 lens from Kerry I have a lot of trust and respect for him. I had been looking forward to doing business with him for a 7x17. A dealer/distributor that you can trust happens to be an important thing.

tim atherton
17-Mar-2007, 18:44
I was going to delete it with an "oh-okay" comment in it's place, but I put it in the corrections not the delete field...

Hugo Zhang
17-Mar-2007, 23:48
No, Chamonix does not want 100% of your US money for themselves. The savings will be passed on to the buyers. Chamonix was not eager to get into US market, blame this on Hugo, he thought he was doing something to help the ULF market and some people here might be interested. There are people going to China to buy Chamonix cameras. ULF is growing fast in China and people there like new cameras. If Chamonix and Hugo can make some people here happy owners and users of Chamonix cameras, they will be pleased. If nobody is interested, they are fine too.

No, you don't wire money into a private overseas bank account and wait for 6 months. I have helped somebody here with custom made film holders by Chamonix and he sent me a check after he received the holders and was happy with them. For cameras in their factory, you send me a check for the camera and once you receive the camera and are happy with it, you send me another check to cover the shipping which is around $300 for a 7x17 plus a film holder. The shipping time is 2-3 weeks from China by air.

For custom made cameras, there is a 6 month waiting and a 50% deposit is required.

I have been around here for a while. I haven't traded stuff here in this forum, so I have neither a fine nor a bad reputation. Sometimes I might not be modest, but I am always honest. I will try to underpromise and overdeliver when I do a job. I do make mistakes now and then, I will take full responsibility when I make them.

I will post prices and techical information as soon as tomorrow.

rob
17-Mar-2007, 23:54
Is the lens in the 4th pic a hypergon? what FL and format is that?

Hugo Zhang
18-Mar-2007, 00:36
Rob,

It's a 120mm Hypergon with the star. Custom made 12x20 Chamonix camera.

GPS
18-Mar-2007, 00:38
...

I have been around here for a while. I don't trade stuff here in this forum, so I have neither a fine nor a bad reputation. Sometimes I might not be modest, but I am always honest....I will post prices and techical information as soon as tomorrow.

You must be kidding! You don't trade stuff here in this forum? What is then all this fuss about prices and delivery conditions about?
Always honest? You're brazenly declaring that you want to start to sell the Chinese counterfeit in the world (as so many Chinese in the world do in the same brazen way) and you call yourself honest? The Chinese way perhaps. I hope that those manufacturers that had parts of their cameras copied by this pseudo firm will kick your honest business the right way. In Europe they throw away tons of the Chinese counterfeit trademarks each year. Hope it will be the same with your imported cameras.

Hugo Zhang
18-Mar-2007, 00:45
GPS,

I don't know you. Please have a life!

hugo

GPS
18-Mar-2007, 00:46
So do you trade cameras here in this forum or not?

GPS
18-Mar-2007, 00:49
No, Chamonix does not want 100% of your US money for themselves. The savings will be passed on to the buyers. Chamonix was not eager to get into US market, blame this on Hugo, he thought he was doing something to help the ULF market and some people here might be interested. ...
I have helped somebody here with custom made film holders by Chamonix and he sent me a check after he received the holders and was happy with them. For cameras in their factory, you send me a check for the camera and once you receive the camera and are happy with it, you send me another check to cover the shipping which is around $300 for a 7x17 plus a film holder. The shipping time is 2-3 weeks from China by air.

For custom made cameras, there is a 6 month waiting and a 50% deposit is required.

.... Sometimes I might not be modest, but I am always honest.
I will post prices and techical information as soon as tomorrow.

Quotes from someone that doesn't "sell stuff here in this forum"! He is always honest...

GPS
18-Mar-2007, 00:52
Hi Hugo, is this LF forum the shopping window for the "Chamonix" cameras whos' parts are "of course, copied, but not mindlessly"? The Chinese counterfeit sold in this forum -is that your idea of helping the LF cause?

rob
18-Mar-2007, 01:33
The more ULF cameras are sold, the more (ULF) films will be used, and that will keep the film manufacturers producing films. This is a good thing in the crazy digital age now. Therefore, it's good to keep people manufacturing LF/ULF cameras, regardless how they do it. I think this is really helping the LF cause.

GPS
18-Mar-2007, 01:38
Hugo, with your business proposals in this thread you're in violation of guidelines for commercial announcements in this forum.

Paul Droluk
18-Mar-2007, 03:47
As I see it, there are three different issues at hand here, which I would like to address in the order of least importance (to me personally)...

First is the issue of copying designs. Fact of the matter is that there is virtually nothing that is truly new in the world of film cameras, especially LF cameras, and manufacturers have always looked carefully at their competitors designs, incorporating desirable features into new iterations. It's the nature of competition in any marketplace. For those few exceptions, where a distinctly unique design is conceived, there is ample protection afforded through execution of patents and copyrights and their subsequent enforcement.

Secondly, the issue of utilizing this Forum as a commercial venue... in the whole I totally agree, though announcements of new products are allowed and are usually of value. Soliciting direct business on the other hand is more questionable, and not in keeping with the guidelines of this Forum. That being said, we (Fotoman) have in the past asked for design advice, made product announcements, and most recently made a posting asking for a "show of hands" to assess the viability of producing 5x7 and WP film holders. We are thankful that our posting was not deleted as being "commercial", though to some degree it could surely be viewed as such. Had our posting been deleted, we might not have gathered the information we required to make the decision to go ahead with production.

Lastly, and to me the largest travesty being committed, is the absolute betrayal of Kerry Thallman... a devoted patron, mentor and fountainhead of LF and ULF practice and promotion. After having done all the investigation, groundwork, and promotion, and especially having put his hard earned reputation on the line... to have the folks at Chamonix cast that aside for clearly self serving reasons is a breach of honor and an outright betrayal.

Sadly, this does not come as a surprise to me. I have been living almost every day of the last four years here in China, engaged in the business of manufacturing cameras. During this time I have learned a lot about Chinese mentality... actually, I'm now happily married to one. Of the many things I have learned, one stands out more clearly than any other... Chinese "Face" IS NOT, and should NEVER be confused with the Western sense of "Honor". Until you live here for a while, you can not understand the true meaning of "Face", and what an immoral and destructive concept it truly is. This is not to be interpreted as a condemnation of the Chinese, simply a cultural fact of life that one must understand and be prepare for.

Incidentally, Chinese women are not actively tutored, matriculated into, or held accountable by (or to) the behavioral implications of "Face"... only the males are.

GPS
18-Mar-2007, 04:07
Just on the sideline of the main issue of this thread - I agree with you. Paul,that your announcements are not in the same class as the brazen on-line business that Hugo announced in this thread. I'm sure it will be dealt with in accordance with the guidelines of this forum.
When it comes to the open declaration of copying other cameras by this "Chamonix" factory loudly expressed by it's only business represent ant in the US, Hugo Zhang, I'm in principle opposed to this kind of stealing the intellectual property of other manufactures. As to their legal actions, taken in future, I leave it entirely on them. Which doesn't change anything on the principal point that the outright copying of other cameras has its legal dangers...

GPS
18-Mar-2007, 04:55
Thanks to the moderators for deleting the "Chamonix" business threads!

Bruce Barlow
18-Mar-2007, 05:27
My good friend Richard Ritter is looking better all the time.

And it is very sad to see what's been done to Kerry Thalmann - one of the great gentlemen of the LF world.

Michel ROUX
18-Mar-2007, 05:32
Hello Emmanuel

In the 80'
They was also a japanese brand called "ALPAGE" , probably form Alpine group.
These tape recorders were one the best available , regarding price and quality (In every terms)
As you also remember the ALPA from Sinar
and A.L.P.S ( connectors )
If I do remember well, CHAMONIX is a well known orange cake from NESTLE, and still alive.
It gives little room for a LF brand
Logos and brand names are half of a successful project.

So,
Dear chinese manufacturer,
Work on this too.

Best regards

Ted Harris
18-Mar-2007, 06:19
Hugo, another question that has been nagging me since the beginning of the thread .... are you writing these posts or just 'pasting' them here for the company principal? Some of them sound like they are written by someone referring to you in the third person and none of them 'read' like other posts you have made since you joined the Forum.

David A. Goldfarb
18-Mar-2007, 06:34
Lastly, and to me the largest travesty being committed, is the absolute betrayal of Kerry Thallman... a devoted patron, mentor and fountainhead of LF and ULF practice and promotion. After having done all the investigation, groundwork, and promotion, and especially having put his hard earned reputation on the line... to have the folks at Chamonix cast that aside for clearly self serving reasons is a breach of honor and an outright betrayal.

This is indeed the issue, and if this fact did not leave such a bad taste in so many mouths, as it evidently has, I suspect there would be less objection to the commercial nature of the announcement, and many of us would be asking questions about the cameras, as we did when Kerry himself was making announcements for Chamonix.

Iskra 2
18-Mar-2007, 07:17
Lastly, and to me the largest travesty being committed, is the absolute betrayal of Kerry Thallman... a devoted patron, mentor and fountainhead of LF and ULF practice and promotion. After having done all the investigation, groundwork, and promotion, and especially having put his hard earned reputation on the line... to have the folks at Chamonix cast that aside for clearly self serving reasons is a breach of honor and an outright betrayal.

Sadly, this does not come as a surprise to me. I have been living almost every day of the last four years here in China, engaged in the business of manufacturing cameras. During this time I have learned a lot about Chinese mentality... actually, I'm now happily married to one. Of the many things I have learned, one stands out more clearly than any other... Chinese "Face" IS NOT, and should NEVER be confused with the Western sense of "Honor". Until you live here for a while, you can not understand the true meaning of "Face", and what an immoral and destructive concept it truly is. This is not to be interpreted as a condemnation of the Chinese, simply a cultural fact of life that one must understand and be prepare for.

Incidentally, Chinese women are not actively tutored, matriculated into, or held accountable by (or to) the behavioral implications of "Face"... only the males are.

Paul, this is probably off topic; but, I need to understand this "Face" concept better. Any examples that demonstrate the differences between "Face" and "Honor" would be appreciated.

Some associates of mine are dealing with a Chinese business ...... and experiencing rather unusual commitements and deliveries. How do Chinese "do business"?:confused:

Regards.

John Bowen
18-Mar-2007, 07:18
My good friend Richard Ritter is looking better all the time.

And it is very sad to see what's been done to Kerry Thalmann - one of the great gentlemen of the LF world.

I couldn't be happier with my Ritter 7x17. As I've stated before Richard made some modifications to his camera to accommodate a left handed photographer with oversized hands. It's a delight to pick up the phone and speak to Richard (in english) about all things photographic. He is a wealth of information and is more than happy to share it. I also know that if my camera ever needs repairs or a modification, I can have it in Richard's hands in 3-4 days via USPS.

Kerry too, has always been willing to share his extensive knowledge of photographic equipment.

Hugo Zhang
18-Mar-2007, 07:41
Ted,

I have written all the posts.

Paul,

You really don't know what has happened. To protect other people's privacy, I will not say anything here. Judge not or you will be judged, especially when you know nothing at all. I feel sad for you that after staying 4 years in China, you are surrounded by Chinese males who don't know what honor is.

I didn't know new items can't be posted at this forum. I am OK with the facts that they are deleted and I will not follow suggestions that I repost them in this thread.

Anyone interested can email me at hugoz_2000@yahoo.com for prices and technical details.

I know exactly who I am and what I am doing here. I have learned a lot from nice people in this forum and have made some friends. People are actually different than they appear to be and people do change. Live to learn and to discover. I am amused by the heat generated by my thread.

r.e.
18-Mar-2007, 08:07
It seems to me that there is a lot of confusion about the policy of this site on business annoucements.

Mr. Zhang posted in a part of the site that is expressly for commercial announcements. His post makes it clear that he has a commercial interest in the product. He did the right thing by posting under this topic.

On the other hand, there are participants in this site who regularly recommend their own products in other parts of the forum and without disclosing their interest in the product. A couple of weeks ago, someone made his first post on this forum saying that he was interested in large format and asking how to begin. The very first response was from someone who recommended his own products while neglecting to mention that he has an interest in the products. Not a single person found this odd, or at least not odd enough to point out to the newcomer that the reply was from someone who has a commercial interest in his recommendation. Or maybe this has happened so often at this point that people are worn out raising the issue. Or maybe Mr. Zhang just doesn't have as much clout.

The following is a forum that has enunciated a policy on commercial posts that seems to work very well: www.jwsound.net Click on "Discussion Group" and then on the topic "Manufacturers and Dealers". The first thread in that topic, "Board for manufacturers, dealers and companies" sets out the forum policy. The policy is sensible and it works. The "antics" to which Mr. Wexler, the forum owner, refers in the policy, are the sort of thing that seems to go on here rather frequently. They are among the reasons that Mr. Wexler started his own forum as a civilized alternative to the usenet motion picture sound forum.

Mr. Wexler's forum is about sound, not photography. However, I think that the forum's policy and experience with this issue is instructive because the motion picture sound community is small, there are close links between customers and vendors and the same problem that comes up on this site about commercial posts is also an issue in the sound community. Perhaps something can be learned from Mr. Wexler's forum.

Please note that I am not talking about intellectual property issues or the use of Mr. Thalmann's name or whether Mr. Zhang's product is good or bad having regard to build quality, support or US-China trade policy.

Cheers

Michael Mutmansky
18-Mar-2007, 08:55
Ted,

Hugo and Bob Dole have never been seen at the same time. Coincidence? I think not. Inquiring minds want to know.


Hugo,

While these new revelations about the camera distribution do not change my overall opinion of the camera design or manufacture, they do have an impact on whether I think the camera is a viable offering in the US.

The timing of these announcements appear to be related to the publication of the review in View Camera Magazine that I authored, so I will state that I think it is appropriate that you state very clearly what you will be doing to serve the US readers of this post as well as readers of VC Magazine in terms of sales, service and support, in terms of exchanges and refunds.

You see, when there was to be an American distributor, they would shoulder the burden of marketing the camera, and support and service after the sale. In this case, they were also going to sell the camera, so they would be responsible for the sales and returns/refunds as well.

This is what I consider a minimum level of American support for a viable product. Yes, people can buy one overseas through the internet, etc. but without the safety net of a distribution system, the buyer will always be at what could turn out to be risk.

This is especially true in this case, as the respect and known performance of the ex-American distributor would have gone a very long way to assuage any concerns from a potential purchaser. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of your posts here, and the apparent conditions of this change in distribution also are leaving questions on people's minds.

So rather than saying things like this:


4. The owner of Chamonix is still learning to balance his passion for landscape photography and his duty as a business man. There are times I can't reach him for weeks because he is traveling in some remote area in China taking pictures.

5. Chamonix has no offices in US and Hugo is the only contact person. He has a full time job and he will try his best to help everyone. But there is no assurance that all inquiry will be answered in a timely manner.

I think you need to be offering substantive information about the availability of cameras and holders, and the policies of purchase, exchange, and returns, along with a methodology for service and support.

I believe that the readers of View Camera Magazine will want to know these things, and I expect that an addendum to the article may be printed in the next issue to help clarify the matter. I will contact you privately about the details of that, but for the sake of this forum, please help clarify a somewhat confusing situation.


---Michael

Hugo Zhang
18-Mar-2007, 09:36
Michael,

"I think you need to be offering substantive information about the availability of cameras and holders, and the policies of purchase, exchange, and returns, along with a methodology for service and support."

I am not a subscriber of The VC magazine and have not read your article. I have visited your wetsite and admire you as a fine photographer. It's unfortunate that no agreement could be reached on acceptable terms for parties involved in Chamonix US distribution, otherwise there would be no this thread.

Readers of this forum and VC magazine can contact me via emails for availability of cameras and holders, as my FS postings have benn deleted. They have a few cemeras of each ULF sizes in the factory ready to ship. A few dozen of holders for each size too. If there is a demand for more cameras and film holders, Chamonix will make more.

At this moment, I will be acting like a dealer for Chamonix and assume the responsibily of such a duty. I will collect the payment, factory will ship the camera and film holders directly to the buyer. If the buyer is happy and accept the camera, he/she will make another payment for the actual shipping cost from the factory. If he/she is not happy, I will refund the full amount and have the camera returned to my southern California address. Free exchange for defective cameras and holders and Chamonix will be paying the shipping charge. I will be listening carefully to advice from interested buyers regarding methodology of service and support.

GPS
18-Mar-2007, 09:56
Michael,

"I think you need to be offering substantive information about the availability of cameras and holders, and the policies of purchase, exchange, and returns, along with a methodology for service and support."

I am not a subscriber of The VC magazine and have not read your article. I have visited your wetsite and admire you as a fine photographer. It's unfortunate that no agreement could be reached on acceptable terms for parties involved in Chamonix US distribution, otherwise there would be no this thread.

Readers of this forum and VC magazine can contact me via emails for availability of cameras and holders, as my FS postings have benn deleted.
...

Something is deeply fishy here...
You have just clearly declined a completely reasonable demand from Michael M. to offer the information that everybody wanting to buy these cameras, would like and need to know. At the same time you act as if buying a camera for $ 3-5.000 were just a question of "sending money here, getting the camera there, be happy, have a good day Just don't ask me about the support, dealers etc. etc."
Also, if you say you don't understand the difference between deleting your posts (that were nothing else than using this forum as your shopping window and your business interface) and announcing a new product on the market, how do you want to get customers confidence in your business practice? By making yourself a victim?
And more questions come to my mind... Something is deeply fishy here...

r.e.
18-Mar-2007, 10:26
After my post, someone kindly brought it to my attention that Mr. Zhang also ran some For Sale posts. Raises interesting questions.

I commented in order to bring to the attention of the site owner and participants an approach to commercial posts that might be worth thinking about. Whether the approach generates interest and constructive discussion on what seems, in the case of this forum, to be a very confused issue, remains to be seen.

Even if there is no interest in clarifying this policy's site on commerce, I am sure that people will find Mr. Wexler's site, incuding the parts that talk about his career and that of his father, Haskell Wexler, interesting.

Cheers

alec4444
18-Mar-2007, 11:25
Something is deeply fishy here...

Geez, GPS...are you unhappy about something? You own 20% of the posts on this thread and they all read, "...hate this... hate that... screwing us... lying... cheating..."

I take it you're not going to be buying one. So fine. But please don't snipe people who peddle equipment to sustain our raison d'etre. People shouldn't have to be worried about getting flamed over this and that when posting a new product here.

--A

GPS
18-Mar-2007, 11:30
Geez, GPS...are you unhappy about something? You own 20% of the posts on this thread and they all read, "...hate this... hate that... screwing us... lying... cheating..."

...
--A

Can you show my citation of "hate this... hate that... ...lying... cheating" or is it just that you're unhappy about something?

rob
18-Mar-2007, 12:00
I agree with alec4444 about this GPS person. Please GPS write something useful based on facts.

GPS
18-Mar-2007, 12:14
I agree with alec4444 about this GPS person. Please GPS write something useful based on facts.

Like you in this very post? No, thanks.

Michael Kadillak
18-Mar-2007, 13:12
In the arena of international commerce we can all be assured there will always be buyers and sellers when someone wants to sequester the demand for a particular product at an attractive price. It does not matter where the product is being manufactured, who sells it or how the deal is structured with respect to warranty, down payment and representation. Sure, we would all wish that these companies would incorporate stateside and establish US representation but at the end of the day after looking over the deal anyone that is intelligent enough to participate in LF or ULF we can surely conclude is competent enough to make a personal decision as to wheither to participate in this offering or not.

None of us could talk many out of putting down large deposits for Wisner cameras and after a protracted period, all was eventually sorted out. It is a small tight knit community we have here and I feel very comfortable that if someone got pooched in this or any other deal word would spread like a California wildfire.

I look at this from a practical positive perspective. Competition and options are good for any industry particularly when we have had few for a very long time. Secondly, this is very good for the film business as more photographers will translate to more sheet film sales. Those of you that do not want to purchase one of these cameras rest assured that we understand where you are coming from the first time you made your point.

Welcome to the Brave New World!

Paul Droluk
18-Mar-2007, 16:30
Ted,

Paul,

You really don't know what has happened. To protect other people's privacy, I will not say anything here. Judge not or you will be judged, especially when you know nothing at all. I feel sad for you that after staying 4 years in China, you are surrounded by Chinese males who don't know what honor is.


Hugo,

last things first... my commentary regarding the differentiation between Chinese Face and Western Honor is valid, and common knowledge to those who live here. It was tendered as an explanation of cultural behavior, not as a racial slur. After countless hours of lengthy conversations with my MALE and female Chinese friends (whom all agree) on this topic, I can only say that Face is likely the root cause for most all of the injustice in China. One clear and simple example: of the 450+ residents living in my luxury, waterfront, hi-rise (read very expensive) community, over 300 of them are government employees, who by virtue of their official incomes could no more afford to live here than the man on the moon. The manner by which they are able to afford such luxury is clearly known, and by Western standards clearly without Honor. Nonetheless, these same individuals are considered to have copious amounts of Face here in China.

As for my comments regarding the apparent travesty to Kerry Thalmann... if it looks like a pig, smells like a pig, oinks like a pig, and tastes like a pig...

Lastly, I have been aware of Chomonix cameras for quite some time via the commentary of my Chinese photographer friends, some of who are accorded the title of "master" by their peers. While not unanimously so, overall the commentary is complimentary.

Hugo Zhang
18-Mar-2007, 16:51
Paul,

"if it looks like a pig, smells like a pig, oinks like a pig, and tastes like a pig..."

So you really don't know, right?

Christopher Perez
18-Mar-2007, 17:00
Kerry has worked very hard for the LF community over the years. If Mr. Thalmann is no longer involved, I see no reason to put my money on the line.

I too have been doing business with SE Asia for the past 10 years. It's not easy. There are vast chasms between East and West when it comes to doing business. Paul, I have no idea how you make it work. You can't believe how hard we work to get something out of India (engineering)...

Wayne Crider
18-Mar-2007, 18:57
I would seem prudent for this manufacturer to show face at some event where the camera can be displayed and questions can be answered. It would also seem wise for the owner to address the service questions above, especially since, and as stated, he might disappear for weeks at a time on his travels. I would suspect his factory is still working tho? If anything can be learned here, it is that Americans value service quite highly, especially on items of high cost. It is still a new world for private American individuals to purchase any item, let alone high dollar items from overseas, especially when there are no American referrals for the item or abilities to judge the item thru handling.

Maybe something like a PayPal or Ebay account would help alleviate some anxiety? What I would appreciate as a buyer is recourse; Something that is not seemingly available when dealing overseas. If anything, the world of online equipment purchases, especially for used items, has made all of us quite leery and this can certainly be projected towards items of high cost and foreign manufacture. To be put simply, when in Rome do as the Romans. If you do not understand the term, when in the U.S. do business as the Americans do. Establish yourself, prove yourself and be there when we need you.

Eric James
18-Mar-2007, 19:31
Hey - mellow out folks. Hugo is a respected member of this community - he and people like him make this place what it is.

Okay, perhaps names should not have been mentioned without pemission - I'm sure that the parties involved are big enough to put it behind them.

Hugo - if you want to make this thing fly you'll likely have to travel to trade shows.

rob
18-Mar-2007, 20:16
Hugo - if you want to make this thing fly you'll likely have to travel to trade shows.

Alternatively, Hugo can do an open house to demo the cameras. Plane ticket is cheap.

It would be nice if the cameras are offered with different levels of customer support, say,
Including supports that the Americans are used to, the camera price is $5000; No customer supports at all, price is $1500; and anything in between, these are just examples. I would give the camera a demo-trial, and if it's good, I'd buy it with no customer supports:D . I'm a handy person, I have no problem fixing it if it breaks. I prefer to spend my money on films to keep the film available.

Hugo Zhang
18-Mar-2007, 20:18
Thank you for your kind word, Eric! Quite a relief after taking this much heat after my first posting.

The sample 7x17 camera and holder for the VC review should be back to me soon and I can show interested parties in southern California.

Life is learning. I have been shooting LF for a few years and my gears never seem to need service and support from a dealer. Plus the fact Chamonix didn't want to get into US market in its first two years because they want to work out the bugs and see their cameras can work smoothly in users' hands. They have very rigid quality control procedures and don't want to increase volume just to meet demand. They are not going to expand their operation and want to go slowly to build their brand name. It's my fault, I tempted Chamonix with our market place.

Wayne, In a perfect world, it's nice to have a network of dealers in US for support and service. But we don't live in a perfect world. A well financed dealer to import the cameras. Ocean freight lasts three to six months for small amount of items. Dealers fair and modest margin and high operation costs. Domestic shipping to buyers. My fair and modest cut. All these added up and nobody was happy. Buyer will be paying more for cameras. I had no other choice but to do this way. I have a Paypal account for use when needed.

Communication problems with the owner who has to travel between his factory in southern China and Beijing and sometimes for his photo trips. I warned him that he had to cut down his photography to serve our US market. Since then I has been talking with him with no problem. He has delivered fine products to me as promised.

My goal is really simple: to put these beautiful cameras in users hands here. Thankfully people have sent private emails to encourage me and asking for prices and other information.

I am grateful to this forum and people who have showed me their understanding and support.

David A. Goldfarb
18-Mar-2007, 20:29
I have no problem in the age of the internet and international shipping with buying from a foreign manufacturer with no domestic service or representation. There are plenty of civilized countries out there with high quality businesses, including China, and in some cases one does better by going to the source.

But in this case the situation with Kerry raises some genuine concerns about the way that Chamonix conducts business. Kerry's obviously invested time, labor, and I assume money in this project, and he has generated interest in these cameras by lending his credibility to the company, and it seems from Hugo Zhang's initial announcement and the tone of Kerry's response that Kerry's been unceremoniously cut out of the picture. It doesn't look good.

GPS
18-Mar-2007, 21:31
...
I am amused by the heat generated by my thread.


Thank you for your kind word, Eric! Quite a relief after taking this much heat after my first posting.
....
.

Your amusement was not so sincere, it seems. And your allusions at what happened (so you don't know anything..?) gives you really the much needed credit in the eyes of customers. Never mind, you don't need it, you get a lot of emails from potential customers.. So Chamonix is coming? Or maybe leaving.

e
18-Mar-2007, 23:16
I, at least from the photos, think the Chaminox cameras look pretty nice but perhaps the first buyers will be able to give more realistic responses soon. I'm not sure though Hugo why you would be saying that all the expenses were just too much and such to have a US distributor... Isn't that just the cost of doing business? It doesnt seem to bother Lotus or Ebony sales here in the US. Shipping and overhead is mostly a business write off at the end of the year anyway and with the customer of course paying for domestic shipping. Also...if expenses are really to be cut to the bone...why in the world would you want to process Paypal and pay an extra 4% or so of the total retail price.... Thats $200- per $5000- sale, almost a dealers cut. Are your profit margins that good?? I'm really not getting your statements here. But anyway...maybe buyers will happy with their Chaminox cameras and things will iron themselves out...I just wonder why you want to be the cheapest guy on the block. Why not just charge a fair price for a good product and use a distributor to iron out the difficulties. But I guess you do have a US distributor, he just doesnt know it yet.

Emmanuel BIGLER
19-Mar-2007, 02:51
If I do remember well, CHAMONIX is a well known orange cake from NESTLE, and still alive.
It gives little room for a LF brand

yes, Michel.

Now going 100% OFF-TOPIC (moderator, fell free to apply the Hard Rules ;-))

For those interested, Chamonix-Orange®, as it was branded in the past, now simply branded Chamonix®, it is a kind of ginger bread, orange-flavoured, covered with an "icy" crust of sugar. Hence the icy reference to Chamonix. Not good for you diet, but so delicious ;-)
It has been on the market, at least in France, for at least half a century and is probably marketed in the EU without trouble.
So previous regulations did not prohibit to call a product 'Chamonix'.

Very probably there would be little objection to register a brand name 'Chamonix-Camera'. How many AAA-repair, AAAA-repair, AAAAA-repair are registered in the States without any objection from the well-established AAA ;-) ;-) and how many 'ACME' ;-)

'Champagne' is a different issue. Here are some true stories that I like very much.
(disclaimer 100% OFF-TOPIC !! I'm not affiliated, etc...)

1/ A well-know French luxury company was a few years ago denied the right to use the name 'Champagne' for a perfume sold in France. But regulations are different in the rest of the world.

2/ In Switzerland (Vaud county) there is a nice village named : Champagne. The village has been known under this name and has been producing wine for such a long time that you could imagine since the Roman times ;)
However they would have hard times selling their wine abroad under the brand 'Champagne'.
However, in the same village, there is a fine manufacturer of biscuits. One of the products I prefer in this product line are "bricelets" a kind of wafer, similar to a 3" silicon wafer but more crispy ;-)
Their brand as a biscuit manufacturer is : "De Champagne". They opened a factory in nearby France and first sold their product under a different brand. Probably they eventually succeded in using the brand 'De Champagne' in France since they abandoned the other brand that nobody would recognise.

3/ Another funny story about legally using the name of a village for a commercial purpose.
In France there is a place named : Aoste. No connexion at all with Aosta in Italy, a famous place located just on the other side of.. Chamonix where people speak French as well;-)
A company located in Aoste, France, makes ham and advertises it as 'Aoste Ham' (Jambon d'Aoste). Many French customers associate the name Aoste with Italy, and hence associate the brand with a top-quality image. There has never been anything like 'Aosta Prosciutto' in Italy, although the ham that you can enjoy as antipasti in Aosta, when you come down, exhausted, from climbing the Italian Side of Mont Blanc carrying your LF gear in your backpack is most probably top-class ;-)

So apparently, nobody can deny the guys in Aoste, France, to sell 'Jambon d'Aoste' like, probably, nobody can deny the rights to sell 'de Champagne' biscuits ;)

So again, good luck to... Ch.... cameras !

evan clarke
19-Mar-2007, 06:57
I am not an intellectual property lawyer, but I worked for a company that used place names for its product lines for the precise reason that it was extremely difficult (at least under U.S. I.P. law) to claim I.P. rights in the name unless there was a confusingly similar product line out there already. This is not legal advice, but if you are concerned a quick trip to an I.P. lawyer should sort things out.

Trademarks are issued in the context of products. Because Chamonix is trademarked for some things does not give it blanket protection for all products. Hugo, you can probably trademark Chamonix in the US for photographic products..Evan Clarke

buze
20-Mar-2007, 03:43
I think the tone of the discussion reflects my original impression of the LF/ULF crowd. It's not as bad as the Leica crowd, but can be on occasions.

So the thread starts with a good news : because I feel that anyone who produce anything new in the fiom industry and help it toward self-sustainability is a good news, whether it's from Antartica, China or Canada.

And then, as usual, there is a pack of what I can only picture as "small dogs" barge in and start barking; not always the same people mind you, pick any 3 or 5. You can see that happening in many topics. Post a joke message about "Ilford vs Kodak" and I'm sure by the second page some "venerable" persons will already have started with the snipe comments and personal attacks.

In this case, wether a business deal fell thru between a company and a potential distributor (or whatever) does not interest me. These things happend. I don't know any of the participants anyway. If they want to explain to the world their version of the issue, they can always open a blog!

What interests me is the price, disponibility and experience of people who have bought the goods. Not the barking of people who will never do anyway.

scott_6029
20-Mar-2007, 06:30
It is good for the ULF community to have more competition (as to how much, time will tell), but I am concerned for Kerry's efforts. But there are always two sides to every story. Perhaps the financial arrangements could not be agreed upon. As with any business, customer service and reputation will be 'fettered' out over time. I am sure over time buyers will report results here.

steve simmons
20-Mar-2007, 06:40
Regardless of the distributorship situation there are reviews and specs of the Ritter and Chamonix 7x17 cameras in the March/April 07 issue of View Camera. There are advantages and disadvantages to each camera.

We will try and proceed with the ULF fim holder reviews and critiques but it will be up to Mr. Zang to provide us with samples from Chamonix now that it is his program.


steve simmons
view camera magazine

Frank R
20-Mar-2007, 08:40
Hugo: If Kerry spent time and energy doing the groundwork for you, the least you could do is pay him with a nice new camera.

What does everyone else think about this idea?

Sal Santamaura
20-Mar-2007, 08:50
..What does everyone else think about this idea?The same thing I think about most of the other "discussion" in this thread. It's none of our business; strictly between the parties involved.

Christopher Perez
20-Mar-2007, 09:55
For those who personally know one or the other of the parties involved I would agree that some public (or even private) acknowledgment, statement, clarification, or comment might be in order.

Something still seems very fishy. After all, at least one of the parties involved was excited about their participation in the venture and saw interesting and fun potential.

For those who don't wish to know the details, do you really want another Wisner on your hands? Do you really feel that "business" trumps all else?

I personally saw the 7x17 in question. It is indeed a very nice camera. But until I understand what's happened, I'm voting with my money and will spend it elsewhere.



Hugo: If Kerry spent time and energy doing the groundwork for you, the least you could do is pay him with a nice new camera.

What does everyone else think about this idea?

Rob_5419
20-Mar-2007, 10:31
Any new large format product, even from a niche sized indie outfit is welcome. Guess I'm still naive to think that as I read the sheer lack of grace in some of the putrid comments here.

Michael Kadillak
20-Mar-2007, 12:07
The same thing I think about most of the other "discussion" in this thread. It's none of our business; strictly between the parties involved.

Completely agree. There is always a tendency to want to evaluate and hash these situations out at the personal level when it is strictly business and as a result, emotion must be checked at the door. Get over it and go make some photographs - spring is in the air......

Cheers!

Sal Santamaura
20-Mar-2007, 12:14
...For those who don't wish to know the details, do you really want another Wisner on your hands?...Christopher, I'm as curious as the next person. But, until Kerry or Hugo post "the details," I'm content to let them and the manufacturer sort out everything in private.

Since I have no burning desire to purchase another camera anytime soon, waiting years to see whether Chamonix turns out like Wisner is no problem for me. :)

Christopher Perez
20-Mar-2007, 13:17
Sal, what you say is indeed entirely fair.

On the flip side, a small group of photographers in my area were talking about throwing in together to make a purchase. We'd each get one month round robin with the camera(s). The 7x17 looked like fun. The 14x17 looked awesome. Seemed like an economical rather fun approach to sharing resources. We were thinking about it until this thread appeared, that is... :( :( :(


Christopher, I'm as curious as the next person. But, until Kerry or Hugo post "the details," I'm content to let them and the manufacturer sort out everything in private.

Since I have no burning desire to purchase another camera anytime soon, waiting years to see whether Chamonix turns out like Wisner is no problem for me. :)

John Bowen
20-Mar-2007, 16:35
Hugo,

Congratulations! This thread now has over 4300 views!!! By Google standards you must owe the moderators over $2,000. What a great advertisement!

rob
20-Mar-2007, 21:10
Hugo,

Congratulations! This thread now has over 4300 views!!! By Google standards you must owe the moderators over $2,000. What a great advertisement!

This also means there is great interest in large cameras, no?

Geert
21-Mar-2007, 05:12
This also means there is great interest in large cameras, no?


No. Just for the gossip.

G

Michael Alpert
21-Mar-2007, 14:50
"EPS" has made over 600 anonymous posts, including silly diatribes. "e" has around 300 anonymous posts to his credit, if credit is the right word. Are these initials a way in which people who post here with other names can be ridiculous without taking the blame? Or are people with competing business interests using the forum to sabotage potential competition? Or perhaps it's just verbal masturbation from the very old? I am uneasy about this thread anyway. Usually when business dealings go sour, there are two sides to the story of what happened. Here, everyone seems to know everything without anything being said in public. Although I find the forum useful, I don't think I like it anymore.

steve simmons
22-Mar-2007, 11:26
This is an unfortunate situation. We are getting e-mails wondering what is going on and I am not sure what to tell people.

It would be helpful if Mr Zang would contact us and give us up to date info.

steve simmons

Hugo Zhang
22-Mar-2007, 15:44
Steve,

It is an unfortunate situation. But we do have cameras of various sizes up to 20x24 in inventory in China. Anybody interested can PM me for more information.

Hugo Zhang

steve simmons
22-Mar-2007, 22:54
Many of my readers do not participate in this forum and don't know to PM you here.

steve

Hugo Zhang
23-Mar-2007, 05:48
Then I will put a little ad in your magazine for your readers. Can you kindly PM me for the rate information?

Thanks.

Hugo

e
24-Mar-2007, 15:37
Michael,
I'm "e" and this stands for Emile de Leon. When I joined this forum 6 years ago somehow my name/ikon got reduced from Emile de Leon which I use on this and on all other LF forums I belong to, to an "e" when the servers on this forum were changed. I did not have anything to do with this and I always use my full name on all the other forums I'm apart of. I never bothered to change my ikon on this forum but didn't like it ("e") either. So please don't go assuming that I'm trying to hide my true identity. I'm not. I probably should change my ikon but I'm not exactly computer savvy. IMO there are two views here. One for the business side of things (Kerry's) and one view for the photog who wants the best price for his ULF outfit. Actually 3 views...those on the sidelines waiting to see what happens too with no specific opinion. But, these 2 main views have really nothing to do with the quality of Chaminox cameras which remains to be seen. These 2 views are perhaps mutually incompatible unless business ethics are brought into play instead of the usual cutthroat business tactics which seem so prevalent nowadays. Funny how many people make the remark of..."that's the way business is done" or something similar and don't give a rats ass about who gets screwed in the process, even one of their own. I've been in retail for over 12 years, I own a retail gift shop. I've seen a lot of stuff go down in that time. One lesson I've learned is that the avg customer will take a trip around the world to save 50 cents even though it cost him his arm and a leg in the end. I've seen that time and time again. Not all customers are like this though. I've also seen manufactures that cant make up their mind if they want to do retail or wholesale or both. Not good. As an example of unethical business practice I've seen Blo*kbuster video (several years ago now) come to my town and take a calculated loss on their Video rentals (by undercharging everyone else) for 1 or 2 years till all the little mom and pop video stores are out of business then raise prices back to normal once they have killed the competition. This was the word straight from a Blo*kbuster manager that was also a customer of mine. I have a pet peeve about this sort of business practice as I have seen so many small mom and pop outfits go out of business not because of their way they do business but because they acted fairly in a business sense and got shafted in the end. I don't really have a side here Chaminox-wise as this does not affect me in the least whether this camera company succeeds or not or whether they have good service or not. I just was surprised when after several months of Kerry's preparations and spoken enthusiasum on this forum and elsewhere for this company...then suddenly it went 180 degrees in the other direction as evidenced by his only response in this thread. Just kind of fishy smelling that's all. I'm not satisfied with the companies responses either. Emile.

Michael Alpert
25-Mar-2007, 08:30
Emile,

Thank you very much for your response to my post.Your description of your business situation mirrors mine. I direct a university-based book-publishing house. Although the press has a web-site, I do everything I can to avoid the reality or the appearance of competition with the bookstores who stock the press’s books. Every manufacturer is in a monopoly situation. Absent basic fairness, lacking a sense of commitment to business colleagues, the manufacturer can easily turn into a bully. And everyone looses. At you pointed out, the same failing can become the practice of predatory retail corporations.

Film photography seems to be gradually evolving to a scale where small and medium size companies are the manufacturers, with a range from Ebony Camera (which has less than a dozen employees) to Ilford (which must have several hundred).

I felt (and feel) that this whole thread is giving us bits and pieces of information without letting us know about this camera and its possibilities. Mr. Zhang perhaps does not have a strong background in business. Whatever the reason, his elusiveness is effectively discouraging interest in the cameras he represents, regardless of their quality. He does not seem to understand that openness and customer service, at all levels and in all ways, are primary concerns of photographers who are buying specialized equipment. Also, a sense of reliable wholesale management is essential. He needs to work with retailers who are already established. He, by himself, has, as far as I know, no track-record and, therefore, no credibility.

Lastly, thank you for not responding to my barbs. I was obviously mistaken about you. I needed some explanation. I apologize for characterizing you as I did.

fuegocito
25-Mar-2007, 08:55
Given how few ULF camera makers out there at any point in time, any new comer is welcoming news and cannot be a threat to any of the existing players given their own cult like followings. For what the market place is for such oddity as ULF film cameras, Chamonix can not compare to any global corporation in every aspect in how business is conducted, if it's not a "mom&pop" operation, one can be certain that it also cannot be anything like factories cranking nike shoes or inexpensive DVD players. If Chamonix can provide light yet strong ULF cameras without infringing or violating any existing patents, that itself is elegantly put together with a competitive price point to the end users. I say this new option is a good thing, just think about a light ULF camera that allow one to shoot more than 10 feet away from a car on the roadside, that you can haul into the woods, up the mountain, down the canyon… sure you can do this with a Wisner, or oldie like Korona, but wouldn’t you really rather carry a few more film holders with you instead.

As far as the business interaction between Kerry and Chamonix, as few have said earlier, it’s one of personal and business confidential information, and as the nature of such dealing goes there is always two sides of the story, we can speculate all we want, but personally I wouldn’t make any judgments until I have heard from at least three independent sources.

Robert

fuegocito
25-Mar-2007, 08:59
I agree strongly with Michael that more technical information or image of the camera themselves would a excellent idea, I for one are extremely curious about the details such as weights, range and degree of movements, accessories availabilities...

Hugo Zhang
25-Mar-2007, 11:22
Since most requested information I have received so far are about technical details and prices so far. I might as well post this information here. Please note the prices are in Chinese RMB which is currently 7.69 to one US dollar. Of course the buyer will pay the shipping from the factory in China.

Another note, there are much interest in custom made cameras, such as convertible backs and extra long bellows for 14x17, 16x20 and 20x24, so users can shoot portraits and landscapes using the same camera. Interested parties can email me for details.

Film holders weight and price
7x17 930g RMB 3000
8x20 1130g RMB 3600
14x17 1490g RMB 3800
16x20 1960g RMB 4500
20x24 3390g RMB 5000


Tech Data:

7x17 weight 4190g(white), 4700g(black), Bellows draw: Max 620mm, Min
120mm, back standard tilt 11 degree, front rise and fall 85mm, left and
right shift 75mm price RMB 23500

8x20 weight 4650g(white), 5110g(black), Bellow max 690mm, Min 100mm,
rear
standard tilt 10 degree, front rise and fall 100mm, left and right shift
75mm, price: RMB 26500

14x17 weight 6600g, bellows max 800mm min 210mm Rear standard tilt
10
degree, front rise and fall 220mm, left and right shift 104mm, price:
RMB
28500

12x20 weight 6540g bellows max 700mm min 190mm rear standard tilt 12
degree, front rise and fall 195mm, left and right shift 104mm, price:
RMB
28500

20x24 weight 12510g, bellows max 920mm, min 220mm rear standard tilt
11
degree front rise and fall 285mm, left and right shift 104mm, price: RMB
38500

Ralph Barker
25-Mar-2007, 11:45
Now that most folks have had a chance to comment, and Hugo has answered questions about pricing, I think it's appropriate to close this thread. The intention is not to limit debate, but simply to keep the discussion within the guidelines relative to the commercial aspects of the issue.