Marketing Question: 5x7 Film Holders

[Paul Droluk]

Before we launch into this, we would like to receive an indication of the potential market for brand new 5x7 double sided film holders. These would be in every way indistinguishable from Toyo film holders other than for three aspects...

1. They would carry the Fotoman brand name
2. The dark slide would be stainless steel (like in a Horseman RF holder)
3. The pricing would be more attractive

We have already commenced the tooling for 8x10 and 4x10 film holders, having satisfied ourselves that a viable market exists. Once again, these will be indistinquishable from the Toyo holders other than for the same three aspects. We believe there is a viable market for the 5x7's as well, however before making the considerable investment in tooling, we would like to have some feedback.

Thank you in advance for your input.

[Geary Lyons]

Paul,
There has been strong demand demonstrated in the Toyo 5x7 holder thread. Although I do not want to jeopardize the valiant efforts with Toyo, a firm offer of product, including price and quantity would likely be welcomed.

Cheers,
Geary

[kjsphotography]

11x14 would be nice for sure.

[Ted Harris]

Paul, there is a definite demand. As noted above there is a move afoot to get Toyo to do a run of 5x7 holders. Of course, there has not yet been a discussion of price and I suspect the eventual price quoted by Toyo will not be that attractive.

If you can bring the final retail price of the holders i somewhere in the range of the cost of the Fidelity Holders in their last incarnation ... $55 ... or less you will have a winner.

Folks, if anyone can do it Paul can. I am assuming these holders will have the fit and finish of other Fotoman products which is superb, by far the best I have seen come out of China.

[r.e.]

Any chance of a 5x7 Fotoman to go with the holders?

[Jim Rhoades]

Last year I bought six new Fidelity holders. The last I guess. Everything that I've bought or seen on e-bay is 75 years old and beat to hell. I'm not even trying anymore.

From the responces I've seen on the Toyo thread at least half say it depends on price. I too, would buy 6 to 12 more at the right price point.

I would wait until I heard what Ted or Kerry said about them.

[Sal Santamaura]

Paul,

See my response in the APUG thread:

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum172/37259-5x7-film-holders-market-response-please-2.html#post440117

If you could assure us that the concerns I expressed there would be addressed, I'd purchase 12 of your holders rather than Toyos. I'd also be interested in 6.5x8.5 holders if they are as I described in the linked thread.

[Scott Davis]

I'll put in my interest here as well, and again stir the pot for 6.5x8.5 holders. At a fair price, I would be very interested in both sizes.

[Christopher Perez]

I agree. Though at this point I have 17 "usable" holders to work with, I would be interested in new equipment at the "right" price. I think Ted suggests a good place to start.


Paul, there is a definite demand...

If you can bring the final retail price of the holders i somewhere in the range of the cost of the Fidelity Holders in their last incarnation ... $55 ... or less you will have a winner...

This may be a hold-over from our thoughts shared on APUG, however, interest remains high from a vocal few (Your Humble Servant included) in Full Plate equipment. Again, for the "right" prices (not AWG, S&S, or Lotus prices), Full Plate equipment might be interesting.


Paul,

... I'd also be interested in 6.5x8.5 holders if they are as I described in the linked thread.

Last thought: I noticed that the Fotoman lens adapters don't focus very closely after moving beyond support for extreme wide angle optics. If nothing else, a Full Plate camera back with film holders could be a way for some of us to adapt this format to existing bellows camera systems (such as Arca Swiss and Sinar).

[Paul Droluk]

Paul, there is a definite demand. As noted above there is a move afoot to get Toyo to do a run of 5x7 holders. Of course, there has not yet been a discussion of price and I suspect the eventual price quoted by Toyo will not be that attractive.

If you can bring the final retail price of the holders i somewhere in the range of the cost of the Fidelity Holders in their last incarnation ... $55 ... or less you will have a winner.

Folks, if anyone can do it Paul can. I am assuming these holders will have the fit and finish of other Fotoman products which is superb, by far the best I have seen come out of China.

Hi Ted, thanks for the compliment... we're trying hard. In fact the pricing target you mentioned ($55) is around what we have in mind. I am aware of the move to get Toyo themselves to make these, but I too suspect that the pricing will not be very favorable. I compliment Gary for all the work he did in attempting to put the Toyo deal together, but it's been a really long time without Toyo responding. I just have to wonder if Toyo's marketing relationship with MAC is perhaps getting in the way.

[Paul Droluk]

Any chance of a 5x7 Fotoman to go with the holders?

Absolutely. Fact of the matter a 57PS is already in design.

[Michael Kadillak]

I would not be terribly concerned about the time it takes Toyo to respond. I know all to well that these things take time.

What the heck is all of this whining about price? Cripes guys you act like we are all collectively getting screwed. Fact is that Toyo makes a hell of a good product and the price for quality is what it is. My 8x10 and 4x5 Toyo holders are engineering marvels and will last a very long time for me.

The way that I look at it is that until I have another comparable 5x7 or 8x10 sheet film holder in my hand to look at and use, I do with what I know. What I do not want to have happen is for folks to assume that they can save a buck by waiting for the cheaper alternative and it ends up adversely affecting the Toyo deal. Worse case scenario is that the price point that is anticipated is not realized or the holders never get manufactured for one reason or another. Tooling as we all know is a very expensive proposition.

If these Chinese holders are as good as they claim to be then they will rise to the top of the heap and I will be happy to acquire and use them. Until that time I am playing the cards I have in my hand and hope that others will look at the bigger picture and act accordingly.

Cheers!

[Oren Grad]

If nothing else, a Full Plate camera back with film holders could be a way for some of us to adapt this format to existing bellows camera systems (such as Arca Swiss and Sinar).

That's a terrific idea. Here's one more twist - make a prior arrangement with a US-based craftsman who could build reasonably-priced custom wooden adapters to match the back with the 8x10 camera of your choice. The combination of a back plus matched holders plus a ticket to a convenient way of adapting to your camera ought to sell a bunch of whole plate kits.

[Christopher Perez]

The Full Plate field camera I currently own weighs less than one of my 5x7 cameras, and weighs a lot less and is quite a bit smaller than an 8x10 Deardorff.

My current project is to build adapters for 5x7, Half Plate, and 4x5 to fit the Full Plate camera. I am hopeful that the all up weight of this combo system will still be significantly less than the 8x10 'dorff'n'stein and offer the format flexibility that my neurotic ego thinks is required to fully express ones "vision". Pretty pompous, I know. Still, four formats on one small light weight camera body is rather inviting. :)

If a modern Full Plate back and holders were conveniently available I would no doubt adapt it to the camera(s) I have already on-hand. As you point out, there are a few craftsmen who could help us adapt various formats to existing cameras.


... Here's one more twist - make a prior arrangement with a US-based craftsman who could build reasonably-priced custom wooden adapters to match the back with the 8x10 camera of your choice. The combination of a back plus matched holders plus a ticket to a convenient way of adapting to your camera ought to sell a bunch of whole plate kits.

[Capocheny]

I would not be terribly concerned about the time it takes Toyo to respond. I know all to well that these things take time.

What the heck is all of this whining about price? Cripes guys you act like we are all collectively getting screwed. Fact is that Toyo makes a hell of a good product and the price for quality is what it is. My 8x10 and 4x5 Toyo holders are engineering marvels and will last a very long time for me.

The way that I look at it is that until I have another comparable 5x7 or 8x10 sheet film holder in my hand to look at and use, I do with what I know. What I do not want to have happen is for folks to assume that they can save a buck by waiting for the cheaper alternative and it ends up adversely affecting the Toyo deal. Worse case scenario is that the price point that is anticipated is not realized or the holders never get manufactured for one reason or another. Tooling as we all know is a very expensive proposition.

If these Chinese holders are as good as they claim to be then they will rise to the top of the heap and I will be happy to acquire and use them. Until that time I am playing the cards I have in my hand and hope that others will look at the bigger picture and act accordingly.

Cheers!

Michael,

I'll second your comments...

Cheers

[Herb Cunningham]

If somebody has the data, it would be useful to know what the current list of folks who have expressed interest in Toyo adds up to.

That being a decently conservative number, Toyo and or Fotoman would be able to get into production.

I have a bunch of old 5x7 holders, but they are tired. I think I said I would buy 12 in the Toyo list.

I own a 6x17 Fotoman, it is solid.

[Michael Alpert]

Paul,

There are many people interested in 5x7 holders. The recent withdrawal of Fidelity/Lisco 5x7 holders from the market certainly is an opportunity for someone. There are terrific 5x7 field cameras available, good film in b&w, some film in color, and a format that looks increasingly attractive to many people. I love working in this format. My concern right now is that the lack of available film-holders will discourage people from shifting to 5x7, which will work against the future availability of film and everything else. Personally, I would like to purchase some more new film holders. It's the quality of the holder that matters to me, not which company brands them. Fotoman has gained a fine reputation. Having Fotoman branded film holders can only lead to greater recognition for your cameras.

[timbo10ca]

I think it would be great. Could you get the film companies to make 5x7 slide and IR film more available too?

[Ted Harris]

Regarding film,

Lots and lots of discussions in the archives here. To be brief, Fuji has made a totally irrational marketing decision NOT to sell 5x7 film in North America. No expalanation, that is just the way it is; nor are they intrested in honoring a bulk purchase made through one of their dealers ... we tried that too. Just a decision made at HQ which no one else understands. Kodak, OTOH, has stopped manufacturing all 5x7 transpaency film except TMY; they continue to manufacture a good range of transparency film in 13x18 at their Europen facilities.

[Ash]

As previously mentioned, my main concern when moving from 4x5 to 5x7 is availability of consumables.

I can use 4x5 easily, it's a popular format. I have a half plate camera with a reducing back, but if 5x7 holders were available at a fair price, then I'd buy a bunch to use instead, and have a nicer format to work on.

All other variables A-OK then I'd be interested in maybe 5 holders. Probably 10 or so if I had the cash and film was abundant in my freezer ;)

[Ole Tjugen]

At present I'm more interested in more 13x18cm holders than in more 5x7" - precisely due to the difference in available materials.

But since I can get 10 lightly used Linhof 13x18 holders for the price of one new 5x7" holder, it's a non-issue.

[Colin Myers]

Hello Paul,
One aspect of the proposed holder which has not been touched on, is weight.
You are specifying a s/s sheath or dark slide, surely this will incur a heavy weight penalty over plastic? Or if you reduce the thickness, you may reduce the weight. Can you maintain a suitable fine tolerance on the moulded grooves, for the thinner sheath to slide in?
Just curious
Colin Myers

[Michael Alpert]

a 57PS is already in design.

Paul,

Do you have a projected completion date for your 57PS?

[Paul Droluk]

Hello Paul,
One aspect of the proposed holder which has not been touched on, is weight.
You are specifying a s/s sheath or dark slide, surely this will incur a heavy weight penalty over plastic? Or if you reduce the thickness, you may reduce the weight. Can you maintain a suitable fine tolerance on the moulded grooves, for the thinner sheath to slide in?
Just curious
Colin Myers

Colin,

the thickness of the SS darkslide will be considerably thinner than the plastic ones usually used. We have incorporated the appropriate tolerances, which our mold maker has confirmed are do-able. Fortunately for those interested in the 5x7 or WP holders, we will have already proved this out in advance with our 4x10 film holders. Net, net, our film holder will weigh in at very slightly more than the comperable Toyo, though the benefits (durability, IR proof) should be worth the slight weight penalty.

[Paul Droluk]

Paul,

Do you have a projected completion date for your 57PS?

90-120 days, though it will be another 30 days or so before the full range of Cones will be available. Initially, we'll have the most popular ones ready when the camera is.

[Paul Droluk]

OK everyone, we have made our decision... and WILL BE manufacturing the 5x7 film holders. The anticipated selling price is $50.00, though likely slightly less.

School is still out on the Whole Plate holders until we receive additional commitments. We will commence tooling the 5x7 molds shortly.

That being said, the details of the current commitments for the 5x7 film holders is not entirely clear and trackable. So to better account for this, I would ask that you email me directly, clearly stating your purchasing commitment... (paul.droluk@fotomancamera.com).

Thank you all for your input and support.

[naturephoto1]

Paul,

Though I do not use 5 X 7 or shoot larger than 4 X 5, I wish you much luck with the introduction of the 5 X 7 holders for those that use and have a need for them.

Rich

[Michael Kadillak]

OK everyone, we have made our decision... and WILL BE manufacturing the 5x7 film holders. The anticipated selling price is $50.00, though likely slightly less.

School is still out on the Whole Plate holders until we receive additional commitments. We will commence tooling the 5x7 molds shortly.

That being said, the details of the current commitments for the 5x7 film holders is not entirely clear and trackable. So to better account for this, I would ask that you email me directly, clearly stating your purchasing commitment... (paul.droluk@fotomancamera.com).

Thank you all for your input and support.

If you have made the commitment to make the holders, then go ahead and make them. Coming into this fray when many of us (including me) had comitted to Gary for the Toyo deal is both unfortunate and has me scratching my head. If you feel that the market is sufficient long term to make the financial commitment to machine dies then the numbers we were talking about for the Toyo deal have to inconsequential in the bigger scheme of things.

I am staying the course with the Toyo deal even at a higher price out of principal. When someone that I respect has the ability to test one of your holders and the unbiased conclusion is highly favorable then I will consider that option. Playing the low cost card patricularly at this early stage of the manufacturing process is challenging simply because while you have internal cost expectations, there are always surprises that pop up.

Hope it all works out well.

Cheers!

[Ted Harris]

Regarding the Toyo deal. Am I correct that there is still no firm committment from Toyo to make the holders? Further, I have seen no indication at all of price.

What is most important to me is Fortoman's firm decision to go ahead and make the holders while Gary is still waiting for an answer from Toyo. Sorry to be the cynic here but my gut tells me that, at the end of the day, Toyo isn't going to come through. BTW, I am a fan of Toyo products and use a Toyo AII regularly.

[Gary Smith]

Actually, I do have some pricing information, and other information from the rep got it yesterday. I need to translate all in to English and type it up. The short version is they are going to be expensive and there are several reasons for that as well as some speculation on my part. Its past my bedtime, tomorrow I will post a detailed response, and at that point then let everybody decided whether its best to proceed or not.

Personally, I just want some good holders, whether from Toyo, Fotoman or if they just fall from the heavans. Getting some good quality modern holders is really whats important, regardless of who makes them.

Thank you everybody who has supported this so far, your kind words are greatly appreciated.

Thanx!

Gary

Gary

[Michael Kadillak]

Regarding the Toyo deal. Am I correct that there is still no firm committment from Toyo to make the holders? Further, I have seen no indication at all of price.

What is most important to me is Fortoman's firm decision to go ahead and make the holders while Gary is still waiting for an answer from Toyo. Sorry to be the cynic here but my gut tells me that, at the end of the day, Toyo isn't going to come through. BTW, I am a fan of Toyo products and use a Toyo AII regularly.

I guess Ted it all depends upon how one choses to look at this situation.

I have Toyo 4x5 and 8x10 sheet film holders and I like them. Toyo has made 5x7 holders in the past so strictly from a business perspective I feel that Toyo has a "leg up" over the new kid on the block because Toyo has already made the infrastructural investment in the tooling for the holders and therefore it is only materials, overhead and profit into the decision to do the deal or say no thanks.

But at the end of the day each company has to wrap their hands around the size of the forward market because that is all that matters. Toyo's decision from a risk perspective is highly mitigated because they will quantify the production numbers within the offering. If the market can swallow the costs it is a no brainer and there is no downsize for Toyo as they will have no forward expectations for 5x7 beyond this possible deal. I contend that while 5x7 is a popular size within large format, even if you can manage start up costs very efficiently the size of this market segment as a function of time and the associated return on this investment from square one is highly problematic. By nature I am not a negative person - I am a businessman and this is a business decision.

Could that be why current manufacturers of 5x7 holders bailed out? Surely they have the internal sales figures to fall back on. Fear buyers do not prop up a long term trend line and as a result these numbers would be nothing more than an anomolous blip in the sales trend.

Should be very interesting how this plays out. I am crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.

Just my $0.02.

[Ted Harris]

FWIW regarding the current manufacturers, let that read manufacturer meaning the Fidelity/Lisco/Riteway facility owned by Calumet's parent company, they made the decisionto drop out of the entire film holder business. AFAIK the molds are nearly or completely worn out. The production staff was laid off about a year ago. All the new 4x5, 5x7 8x10 (same for equivelent metric sizes) holders that have been coming into the retail market in the past year (perhaps longer) have been assembled by the few remaining employees from existing parts.

I can only guess but I suspect that it was not just the current and projected market size that led to that decision. I'd bet that extremely high retooling and related costs were at least as important a factor. This was not a modern production facility.

Michael, like you, I wish the best of luck to everyone and only hope that the eventual decisions and products will meet the need of our admitedly small niche market.

[David Karp]

If I am not mistaken, Fotoman is a joint venture located in China. One of the wild cards in the LF world from most of our perspectives is the domestic market in China. Most of us just don't know enough to even hazard a guess. Maybe Fotoman knows something.

What percentage of the Chinese market is involved in LF today? There are several Chinese companies building cameras for this market (and others). I have heard anectdotal reports that interest in LF and ULF is growing in China. What if this includes interest in 5x7 or Whole Plate or whatever? What percentage of that market alone would be enough to justify building cameras, making film, or offering film holders?

Personally, I hope that the Chinese domestic LF market is growing. If yes, that along with the rest of us may just keep film and LF alive for a while.

From a marketing perspective, if I saw an opportunity that was available because a former potential competitor was reluctant or slow to reenter a product in the market place, and I saw an opportunity to satisfy the market need at a reasonable price that would make me a profit, I would take it. And if, perhaps, I could cover my tooling cost with some pretty sure orders and then have a product that I could offer to that percentage of a billion people that is also interested in the product, all the better.

This is not to denigrate anything Gary or Toyo is working on. Its just the nature of competition.

[Nick_3536]

OK everyone, we have made our decision... and WILL BE manufacturing the 5x7 film holders. The anticipated selling price is $50.00, though likely slightly less.

That being said, the details of the current commitments for the 5x7 film holders is not entirely clear and trackable. So to better account for this, I would ask that you email me directly, clearly stating your purchasing commitment... (paul.droluk@fotomancamera.com).



Could you tell us a bit more of the process? Would there be a dealer handling things? All direct?

[Paul Droluk]

If I am not mistaken, Fotoman is a joint venture located in China. One of the wild cards in the LF world from most of our perspectives is the domestic market in China. Most of us just don't know enough to even hazard a guess. Maybe Fotoman knows something.

What percentage of the Chinese market is involved in LF today? There are several Chinese companies building cameras for this market (and others). I have heard anectdotal reports that interest in LF and ULF is growing in China. What if this includes interest in 5x7 or Whole Plate or whatever? What percentage of that market alone would be enough to justify building cameras, making film, or offering film holders?


David, the market for all types of cameras, and photography in general, is growing rapidly in China. This is purely a function of the rising levels of disposable income and leisure time. But like elsewhere, the predominence of the market is for digital cameras. Interestlingly, cameras manufactured in China are a very hard sell in China. No one knows better the negative legacy of "made in China" better than the Chinese themselves. Once they are in a postion to purchase, they lust after the products from the German or Japanese manufacturers. For example, I am told that China is Alpa's and Linhof's largest market. I don't doubt it, as I see Alpa's and Linhof's more often than our own cameras when I go to functions or am out shooting.

5x7 and Whole Plate are totally unknown formats in China, though 4x5 and 8x10 have a happy following. 8x10 in particular is enjoying considerable growth. We are hoping to aid in the growth of the 5x7 & WP formats with the availability of our new products. Our partner Li "Charlie" Chun does regular seminars all through the country, which are attended by large audiences due to his status as one of the premier photographers in China.

[Paul Droluk]

Could you tell us a bit more of the process? Would there be a dealer handling things? All direct?

Nick... we would like to handle as many of the 1st run orders on a direct basis as we can. Pure economics, we make more profit selling directly and will be trying to recoup our tooling investment (read large) in as short a period of time as possible. However, other than for the initail run orders, customers will most likely be purchasing from one of our numerous dealers.

[David Karp]

. . . like elsewhere, the predominence of the market is for digital cameras.

Paul,

Thanks for the information.

I am hoping that a small percentage of a billion people when added to the rest of the world will help to keep b&w film factories going for a while.

Get Charlie out there "pushing" LF and film. Times a wastin! ;)

[mike currie]

Great News!
I would be interested in ten 5x7 film holders. Would you have an idea of the postage costs to the United Kingdom via a sign for service.
Thank You

[Stephen Willard]

I moved to 5x7 because its is very close to 8x10 image quality without all the draw backs of weight, expense to purchase, expense to operate, and DOF from larger lenses. The big draw back is lack of film. If this could be solved then 5x7 I believe would take off.

So here is my proposal to address the lack of film. I want a 5x7 film holder that will hold either a 5x7 sheet of film or a 5x8 sheet of film. In either case the opening is 5x7. If I choose to use 5x8 film I can remove some stops in the film holder to allow for the longer 8" sheet film to fit.

Why do I want to use 5x8. Well because I cut my film from 8x10. With 5x8 I need only make one cut just like I do for my 4x10 film. When I cut my own 5x7 from 10 sheets of 8x10, I first make the 5" cut which requires 10 passes. Now I have 20 sheets I need to trim down from 8" to 7" requiring a total of 30 cuts. This is very time-consuming and has the potential to increasing dust contamination. If I could use a 5x8 sheet then I would only make 10 cuts, and after processing the film I could trim the remaining 1" off in full daylight which is easy, and I do not have to worry about dust.

Boy do I want a 5x8/5x7 film holder with a 5x7 opening!!! The extra inch of film holder sticking out would not bother me at all because this film holder would greatly simplify cutting 5x7 film in total darkness.

[Paul Droluk]

Film Holder Update... for all those interested, we are pretty much on schedule. We wound up making three pre-production runs of our guinea pig 4x10 holder to experiment with different plastic formulations. While this delayed us by a couple of weeks, it proved quite valuable... we will be using ABS-PC as opposed to the pure ABS which we initially had specified. ABS-PC, while 10% heavier, provides a much harder surface which will wear much less over the years.

Net-net, it looks like LATE July or early August for delivery.

[Robert Fisher]

Paul, that is great news and thanks for posting.

Hopefully you will offer the holders at a reasonable price.

[Jan Pedersen]

Thanks for the update Paul. Does this also include the 5x7 holders?

[Remigius]

Why do I want to use 5x8. Well because I cut my film from 8x10. With 5x8 I need only make one cut just like I do for my 4x10 film. When I cut my own 5x7 from 10 sheets of 8x10, I first make the 5" cut which requires 10 passes. Now I have 20 sheets I need to trim down from 8" to 7" requiring a total of 30 cuts. This is very time-consuming and has the potential to increasing dust contamination. If I could use a 5x8 sheet then I would only make 10 cuts, and after processing the film I could trim the remaining 1" off in full daylight which is easy, and I do not have to worry about dust.
Stupid question, maybe, but why don't you cut the sheets down to 7" first - this would save you ten cuts. And how do you cut the sheets? Do the half sheets fit into 5x7" holders? I doubt that either 8x10" or 5x7" film have *exactly* that format. (these questions are not meant to be ironic - but I'm pretty much in the same stiuation, except that I have only 13x18cm holders so far - even less film available for those)

[Pavel+]

Yes, a 5x7 fotoman! I looked at your site and am quite interested in the 45ps ... but not enough to buy one right now as I have a 4x5 camera. In 5x7 ... that would be a "for sure" buy ... and of course I'd need some holders to go with that.

I will be crossing my fingers. :)

[audioexcels]

Yes, a 5x7 fotoman! I looked at your site and am quite interested in the 45ps ... but not enough to buy one right now as I have a 4x5 camera. In 5x7 ... that would be a "for sure" buy ... and of course I'd need some holders to go with that.

I will be crossing my fingers. :)

Where did you see 5X7 holders on the site? I couldn't find any. I am wondering when the whole plate holders will ever become available.

[Paul Droluk]

Fotoman Update: I know, I know... we're behind schedule. Here's where we are as of this moment... all of the molds are finished, and we have produced a sample run of all sizes. We are now testing all of our new film holders (4x5, 5x7, WP, 4x10 & 8x10), and waiting on the packaging to be delivered. I have sent Oren Grad one of our WP holders to test in a number of WP cameras for compatibility. I am assuming that there will be at least some changes required to the molds, though we haven't seen any yet. Net, net... probably the middle of January for a release date.

57PS Camera... we are currently shooting with the initial prototype, and all appears to be in order. We will be commencing production shortly, with the 1st deliveries anticipated in 90 days or thereabouts.

[Antonio Corcuera]

Paul, may I ask if the 5x7 holders will still be priced around or under $55, as planned?

[audioexcels]

Fotoman Update: I know, I know... we're behind schedule. Here's where we are as of this moment... all of the molds are finished, and we have produced a sample run of all sizes. We are now testing all of our new film holders (4x5, 5x7, WP, 4x10 & 8x10), and waiting on the packaging to be delivered. I have sent Oren Grad one of our WP holders to test in a number of WP cameras for compatibility. I am assuming that there will be at least some changes required to the molds, though we haven't seen any yet. Net, net... probably the middle of January for a release date.

57PS Camera... we are currently shooting with the initial prototype, and all appears to be in order. We will be commencing production shortly, with the 1st deliveries anticipated in 90 days or thereabouts.

Why Oren of all people?;)

Will be happy to hear the results from Oren who was an excellent choice as a tester. Very good selection there.

Cheers and can't wait for the results:)!

Thanks Oren and Paul!!!

[Paul Droluk]

Paul, may I ask if the 5x7 holders will still be priced around or under $55, as planned?

The MSRP is 69.95 USD.

[Steve Goldstein]

How about pricing for the WP size? And will they fit my Improved Seneca View?

Thx.

[David Karp]

Steve,

I too have a WP Improved Seneca, and have spoken to Paul, Oren and others involved in helping with the specs on the WP holders. The exterior dimensions of the holders should fit just fine. The T-distance on the Fotoman holders will be .260 inch. The old holders generally measure around .254 inch, but various samples by different manufacturers ranged from .254 to .257 inch. So, it may be that the new holders range from .006 to .003 inch away from the spec on the new holders. Should be good for contact printing.

[false_Aesthetic]

Any news on these becoming avail?

[David Karp]

From what I understand, test holders went out to some WP camera users. It looks like a few changes need to be made to the mold. (From my experience in manufacturing, this is common.) This should not take too long.