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View Full Version : Do shutters freeze in cold weather?



stompyq
5-Feb-2007, 08:25
I was out shooting yesterday in bitter cold weather, something like -15F with the wind chill. I ran across an iced up stream and took some shots with my fuji 240 which is mounted in a copal 0, decided i needed a wider view and pulled out my 150mm germiner. The Germiner is mounted on a old Seiko shutter. I cocked the lever and tried to fire the shutter but it wouldn't open. The lever would simply move 2/3 of the way and stick. After i got back home and allowed the gear to warm up the shutter worked fine. I know these are mechanical devices but is this normal, or does my shutter have any issues? I haven't CLA'ed it (haven't noticed any issues with exposures though), just wondering if the speeds are off or something.

Robert Oliver
5-Feb-2007, 08:30
the shutter doesn't, but the lubricants can freeze up. especially bad when the lubricants are old and gunky.

stompyq
5-Feb-2007, 08:35
So did the shutter get screwed up?

neil poulsen
5-Feb-2007, 08:53
I saw a reference in Time Life books where someone had plans of photographing in 50 below (F) weather. He disassembled his mechanical Nikon and cleaned off all the lubricant just for that assignment.

Jim Jones
5-Feb-2007, 09:50
Long ago removing the lubricant was recommended for extreme cold photography. This does increase wear, but not enough to significantly add to the cost of photography. My 35mm Nikon and Leica gear was fairly new when I photographed at temperatures as low as -60 (F), and they all worked with the factory lubricants. Now that the Nikon F cameras are 0ver 30 years old and without a CLA, they are balky at +20 (F).

Bob Salomon
5-Feb-2007, 09:55
Shutters and cameras can be cleaned and lubricated for extreme cold weather. Special lubricants are used for these conditions.

Some of these special lubricants may be good for all weather use but the lubricants that are used are not the ones that cameras are normally supplied with. Any camera repairman who services cameras and lenses will be able to guide you.

And, if your lens is in a Seiko, it is L O N G overdue for a CLA anyway.

C. D. Keth
5-Feb-2007, 10:28
I've heard that the old alphax and betax shutters were made to NOT be lubricated. Those might be ideal for those conditions if it's true.

walter23
5-Feb-2007, 11:24
If it gets cold enough, lubricant could solidify (depending on what type it is). I've used my modern copal lenses in -30C weather (about the same as -15F, without wind chill) and they work. It's not pleasant for the operator (me) though.

I don't think wind chill is too much of a factor with your lenses, it's more of an issue for humans. The lenses will just settle down to the ambient temperature and stay there.


I was out shooting yesterday in bitter cold weather, something like -15F with the wind chill. I ran across an iced up stream and took some shots with my fuji 240 which is mounted in a copal 0, decided i needed a wider view and pulled out my 150mm germiner. The Germiner is mounted on a old Seiko shutter. I cocked the lever and tried to fire the shutter but it wouldn't open. The lever would simply move 2/3 of the way and stick. After i got back home and allowed the gear to warm up the shutter worked fine. I know these are mechanical devices but is this normal, or does my shutter have any issues? I haven't CLA'ed it (haven't noticed any issues with exposures though), just wondering if the speeds are off or something.

stompyq
5-Feb-2007, 11:56
If it gets cold enough, lubricant could solidify (depending on what type it is). I've used my modern copal lenses in -30C weather (about the same as -15F, without wind chill) and they work. It's not pleasant for the operator (me) though.

I don't think wind chill is too much of a factor with your lenses, it's more of an issue for humans. The lenses will just settle down to the ambient temperature and stay there.

Ahh, I thought as much. The thing is my copal lenses functioned fine which makes me agree with what bob said about the seiko needing a CLA. Any good places other than grimes? I don't want to pay more for the CLA than what i paid for the lens.

Vaughn
5-Feb-2007, 12:22
I've heard that the old alphax and betax shutters were made to NOT be lubricated. Those might be ideal for those conditions if it's true.

I was photographing the moon as it was coming out of totality of a lunar eclispe (multiple exposures about 10 minutes apart -- I was using a Turner Reich in a Betax shutter. I was using the front element on the back of the shutter with nothing on the front -- to get a 29" focal length.

I got 3 good images of the moon, then, unknown to me, on the fourth exposure the shutter froze open and I got a nice long streak of the moon for the next ten minutes. Next time I will put a filter over the front of the shutter to keep it seperated from the elements (weather elements, that is). I was up in the foothills of the Sierras (returning from Yosemite) and the cold dampness was probably too much for the Betax.

Vaughn

Vaughn

Bob Salomon
5-Feb-2007, 12:47
Look in your phone book. Any camera repair shop can CLA a mechanical shutter.

Glenn Thoreson
5-Feb-2007, 13:13
Carol Flutot at Flutot's Camera Repair is excellent and economical. She comes very highly recommended for shutter service.

Jim MacKenzie
5-Feb-2007, 14:35
FYI, wind chill is irrelevant to camera gear (nearly). Wind chill measures how quickly humans chill. At a given temperature, we chill faster when it's windier. A windchill of -15 means we are cooling at the same rate as we would if the ambient temperature were -15. However, we only chill to the ambient temperature, so if it's only -5, that's as cold as you'll get. Of course, humans die long before then, so that's why wind chill is important. :)

Cameras, and cars, and any other objects will cool a little faster, but if they are outside long enough they cool to the ambient temperature. Wind chill accelerates the process, but it doesn't change physics. If it's 0 outside, your object cools to 0, no matter what the wind chill.

Humidex is the same in reverse. You won't see stuff heating up to the humidex temperature, only to the ambient temperature, but you will only cool off as though it really is the high temperature because your sweat isn't evaporating efficiently.

Anyway, this doesn't answer your original question, but only consider wind chill to be an issue for you, the photographer. Wind chill won't make your shutter seize unless it would have seized at that temperature anyway.

Dave Parker
5-Feb-2007, 15:39
Look in your phone book. Any camera repair shop can CLA a mechanical shutter.

Bob,

I really have to disagree with this, I know of quite a few camera repair shops that won't even touch a LF mechanical shutter now a days, but they are great on 35mm and MF gear, in this day and age, the CLA of a LF shutter is becoming more and more of a specialized art..

Shutters don't freeze, but as has been posted, the lube in them gets real sluggish and can cause them not to fire, I deal with this every winter around my area..

Dave

Bob Salomon
5-Feb-2007, 15:59
Dave,

As long as parts are available any camera repair shop will CLA a shutter. If parts are not available then they may shy away in case of broken parts encountered during the CLA.

A view camera shutter is no different in most respects then one in a roll film or 35mm leaf shutter camera with a mechanical shutter. And they do repairs and cleaning on these all the time. If in doubt just ask if they can CLA a Rollei TLR shutter. That is a Compur/Copal or Seiko depending on age.

Dave Parker
5-Feb-2007, 16:08
Bob,

I know quite a few that won't touch a Rollei shutter or a Mamiya as well as quite a few others..and I am quite familiar with a view camera shutter, I do all of my own CLA's but for those not familiar with them, I would recommend Carols for those needing a shutter CLA, very reasonable and very good.

Dave

Mark Sampson
6-Feb-2007, 10:36
Stompyq, options for camera repair in Rochester are few these days. The old-timers are long gone. Rowe Photo and Hahn Graphic will only send your shutter out. You might talk to Dick Raas at Photo Source: it's not really a repair shop but he has some knowledge. I admire you for even trying to shoot LF in our current weather!

Carol Flutot
7-Feb-2007, 09:57
If you were to ask me I would say that Copal's are over lubricated from the
factory. In time that lubrication will harden and turning the shutter dial become
difficult, also lubricate migrates to other areas and can causes problems.
As other have mentioned in cold weather the lube that Copal used does solidify.
If I know a shutter will be used as a cold weather shutter, I cold test them before
returning them home.
As for Betax's and Alphax's, most of the ones I get in have been lubricated
with some old type of grease, probably from a previous CLA job.
You can always test your shutter that you will be using in the cold, by placing it in a baggie than in the freezer for a short time. When it's nice and cold take it out and test fire it, if it works it's good to go. If not than have that shutter CLA'd.
If your testing a larger shutter #4 you must test it quickly, for
the slightest moisture on the shutter blades will cause the blades to stick and you will then need to let them dry before using the shutter again.

Carol

Carsten Wolff
8-Feb-2007, 03:37
I've used an Alphax #4, 2 Copals, a Compur and a Prontor-Press, in obviously v. dry (antarctic) conditions to temps as cold as -30 C without any problems. As Carol suggested, I had tried all of them in a -20 C freezer beforehand (as an aside: all of my 35mm SLRs I was using at the time worked, too, once I had given the alkaline batteries the toss....and replaced them with NiMHs)....