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View Full Version : 11x14 soft focus lens: verito 18" vs imagon 480mm



Renee Galang
17-Jan-2007, 02:34
Hello folks,
I've got a macro lens for my 11x14 and now considering a soft focus portrait lens. I used to have a verito 7 1/4 inch and loved it with my 4x5 but now I only have one camera (11x14 cambo) and it needing badly a portrait lens! Which lens above would you recomend? Thanks in advanced.

renee

Jason Greenberg Motamedi
17-Jan-2007, 08:00
Can you find a 480mm Imagon? I have never seen or heard of one. I have seen a few 420mm models, which although initially intended for 8x10 or 10x12 (not sure which) will probably cover. On the other hand, an 18" Verito is not terribly difficult to find.

Hugo Zhang
17-Jan-2007, 08:08
There is an Imagon 480mm on eBay right now. I like Heliar 36cm a lot as a portrait lens for my 8x10 when used wide open. I guess a 42cm Heliar won't be too bad for 11x14.

Jason Greenberg Motamedi
17-Jan-2007, 09:22
There is an Imagon 480mm on eBay right now...

Oh well, never mind.

In any case, the real difference between the Imagon and the Verito are the H-Disks, the odd shaped diffusion disks which snap into the front of the Imagon. Both lenses are quite soft open wide, but the Imagon's H-Disks allow you to increase the underlying sharpness while retaining the soft highlights but at the cost of a (IMO) very ugly bokeh (highlights take on the shape of the H-Disk's aperture). If you are in studio can you control this, but they can be very difficult to use in the field.

Optically both lenses are quite similar, relying on the spherical abberation of a achromat to produce the soft focus effect. The Imagon is just a cemented achromat, but the Verito uses a singlet up front to decrease the FL of the achromat, allowing it to function as a convertible.

Kerry L. Thalmann
17-Jan-2007, 09:31
There is an Imagon 480mm on eBay right now. I like Heliar 36cm a lot as a portrait lens for my 8x10 when used wide open. I guess a 42cm Heliar won't be too bad for 11x14.

And then there's the ultimate 11x14 portrait lens - the 48cm Universal Heliar. Most soft focus lenses loose their softness when you stop down. A 480mmm lens shot wide open at portrait distances will give you VERY shallow depth of field making it difficult (or impossible) to get both the tip of the nose and the eyes in focus without stopping down and losing the desired softness effect. With the Universal Heliar, you can stop down as far as you like and then dial in the desired amount of softness.

The problem is is finding one. Universal Heliars aren't very common in any focal length, and I've only ever seen one in the 48cm ocal length. Then, if you do find one, you need to make sure you're camera can handle it. It's a big, heavy (>13 lbs.) lens.

Given the two choices you menioned, I'd probably go for the Verito. It's more common and probably less expensive and I've always liked the smooth creamy look with glowing highlights of images produced by the Veritos.

Kerry

Jim Galli
17-Jan-2007, 09:50
Of the 2 mentioned I'd choose the Verito also and look for the 22 1/4" extension front light. It turns it into an f5.6 then. My personal favorite is a 480mm f4.5 Hermagis Eidoscop.

Jim Noel
17-Jan-2007, 10:04
I don't recall what is the longest Velostigmat II Variable Soft Focus. If there is one long enough for you they are quite nice to work with and the ability to soften the focus at most apertures is handy. I have a 12" on my 8x10 and use it quite often. When I see them the prices ae usually rather reasonable also.

Ernest Purdum
17-Jan-2007, 10:40
The largest Series II Velostigmat in the lists I have is a 15 1/2", 394mm.

David A. Goldfarb
17-Jan-2007, 10:50
Well, there is the issue that the Imagon generally makes unattractive mushy photographs, while the Verito can make luminous beautiful photographs.

Seriously though, it's a matter of taste and how you use them. They produce very different effects. You'll want to compare images made with both, if you can, before acquiring either one.

Ernest Purdum
17-Jan-2007, 10:52
Looking at an old B&J "Lensbank" list, I see a fair number of soft focus lenses of 18" and above listed, the problem is finding one today. Some are: Cooke Series IIb, ditto IIE, Gundlach Portrait, Hey, how about that, a 19 1/2" Velostigmat, Wollensak Varium, Graf Variable, Wollensak Vitax, and Dallmeyer.

resummerfield
17-Jan-2007, 11:39
.....I'd choose the Verito also and look for the 22 1/4" extension front light. It turns it into an f5.6 then......Jim, could you elaborate on the extension front light. I've seen it described in catalogs, but I've never seen one.

Now as for the Imagon, I prefer those in shutter, so I can dispense with the H-disks and close the aperture, as opposed to the barrel Imagons.

Jim Galli
17-Jan-2007, 11:45
Jim, could you elaborate on the extension front light. I've seen it described in catalogs, but I've never seen one.

Now as for the Imagon, I prefer those in shutter, so I can dispense with the H-disks and close the aperture, as opposed to the barrel Imagons.

It is simply a different front singlet that replaces the original one and changes the combined focal length to 22+ inches. You unscrew the regular front element and replace it with the longer one.

David A. Goldfarb
17-Jan-2007, 12:22
The principle behind the Imagon disks is that you can reduce the amount of light entering the lens while maintaining the same amount of diffusion due to spherical aberration. If you stop down the lens with a regular iris, you reduce the effect as you stop down, which may produce a desirable result, but that's another story.

There are some soft focus lenses that use star or spiral shaped irises for the same reason.

With the Verito the effect is controlled by stopping down, and most of the action is between wide open and f:8, so if you've got too much light for the exposure at the desired aperture, you need ND filters to reduce exposure.

resummerfield
17-Jan-2007, 12:55
My aversion to using the disks in the Imagon (and Fuji and any other lens using disks) is the pattern or ring that forms around speculars.

Toyon
17-Jan-2007, 13:38
Can someone who has used a Verito tell me whether the lens gives a uniform diffuse focus throughout the frame, or does the effect strongly increase as you move away from the center - as with Wollensak's Veritar lens?

David A. Goldfarb
17-Jan-2007, 13:48
It may depend on the format you are shooting with respect to the focal length and the subject distance, but I find the Verito pretty uniform in this regard. It's not "swirly" like a Petzval. I haven't noticed, but if you were to try a Verito that was short for the format, you probably would see more pronounced curvature of field, which could produce the effect you seem to be describing.

If you're an APUG subscriber (if you're not, I think you just get a thumbnail), here's a landscape made with the 11.5" Verito on 4x5"--

http://www.apug.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7729&cat=500&ppuser=60

Jim Galli
17-Jan-2007, 14:15
As David said, if the Verito is used on the size plate that Wollensak recommended it is uniform throughout. There's an image that comes to mind though from a previous discussion over at APUG where Kerik has used a 14 1/2" Verito on his 14X17 camera and it has pretty wild swirly bokeh going on out past the intended coverage area. So you could possibly see both effects frome the same lens dependent on usage. Verito's also have a fine look when used in the convertible state. I've used the rear cell of an 11 inch Verito on the 14X17 camera for this portrait.


http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/1417Merlys4.jpg
John and '41 Buick

I just doublechecked. Kerik's picture was here. (http://www.apug.org/forums/144824-post12.html) He used an 18" Verito not a 14 1/2".

Jason Greenberg Motamedi
17-Jan-2007, 16:51
An 18" Verito on 11x14 has noticeable coma. When extended beyond its normal coverage (about 55 degrees or so) it CAN produce those coma-swirls, depending on the background. Foliage particularly brings it out, as Kerik's image beautifully illustrates.

Jeremy Moore
17-Jan-2007, 18:08
Jason, at what size would this happen with a 9" Verito?

Jason Greenberg Motamedi
17-Jan-2007, 18:22
I don't know off hand Jeremy. Veritos don't have much coverage because of their long barrel.

My calculations: Kerik's 18" lens on 14x17 was at about 63 degrees. A 9" lens at 63 degrees is about an 11" image circle: Perfect for 6.5" x 8.5". But I can't promise that a 9" Verito will cover full plate...

Jim Galli
17-Jan-2007, 18:23
Jason, at what size would this happen with a 9" Verito?
Halve everything = full plate.

Jeremy Moore
17-Jan-2007, 22:29
I don't know off hand Jeremy. Veritos don't have much coverage because of their long barrel.

My calculations: Kerik's 18" lens on 14x17 was at about 63 degrees. A 9" lens at 63 degrees is about an 11" image circle: Perfect for 6.5" x 8.5". But I can't promise that a 9" Verito will cover full plate...

perfect--thank you Sterling holders! ;)

Renee Galang
18-Jan-2007, 00:08
My aversion to using the disks in the Imagon (and Fuji and any other lens using disks) is the pattern or ring that forms around speculars

Interesting discourse folks and the coment above is the one that turns me off to Imagon! I saw this effect on the Cooke's version of PS and it turned me off to that lens. Its just not right for my taste.

Joe Smigiel
18-Jan-2007, 17:43
Here's another Verito pic from the 8.75" version on a 5x7 DD using type 55 Polaroid wide open at f/4:

http://my.net-link.net/~jsmigiel/images/C_VDB_72.jpg

I just looked at a few 5x7s I made with this lens out near infinity focus and can just pick out the swirly coma Jason referred to in the corners. I usually use this lens for closer portraits and never noticed the effect before.

I also have the 22" extension for my 18" Verito. As Jim relates it replaces the front element. It resembles a huge screw-in lens filter.

I have a Verito that has a slot for diffusion stops though I've never seen those in person. They were made with variously shaped designs to apparently give different degrees of diffusion. Here's a link to an old Wollensak catalog describing the stops from the www.cameraeccentric.com website :

http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/wollensakcata/veritoa.html

Joe

gbogatko
25-Jan-2007, 23:09
I mounted a 14.5" Verito on a Cambo 4x5. It produces a huge halo effect wide open, and becomes manageable around f/8 - f/11. Here's an old doll at f/8. I focused on the eyes with the lens dead centered, then used the movements to frame the result.

George

Armin Seeholzer
26-Jan-2007, 03:44
Hi guys
If you are using the Imagon only with the discs then you only use the half part of it!
I use my 250 mm Imagon also without discs and only with the shutter and close it down to f stops from 5.6 to 11 and still get a cremy look!
Armin J. Seeholzer

robert
26-Jan-2007, 04:47
Keep in mind that the verito can be used as a convertible lens. Buy removing the front element of a 14 1/2" verito it becomes a 24" f6.6 (or close) and there is no loss of image quality. The 18" verito becomes a 30" when using only the rear element. Both are capable of covering ULF sizes. Camera Eccentric web site has the literature if anyone would like to read about the verito as a convertible. I've shot 8x20 vertical full length portraits with the rear half of a 14 1/2" verito. Diffusion at 6.6 is about the same as it is at f4 at 14 1/2".

jnantz
26-Jan-2007, 07:00
Keep in mind that the verito can be used as a convertible lens. Buy removing the front element of a 14 1/2" verito it becomes a 24" f6.6 (or close) and there is no loss of image quality. The 18" verito becomes a 30" when using only the rear element. Both are capable of covering ULF sizes. Camera Eccentric web site has the literature if anyone would like to read about the verito as a convertible. I've shot 8x20 vertical full length portraits with the rear half of a 14 1/2" verito. Diffusion at 6.6 is about the same as it is at f4 at 14 1/2".


i was going to say the same thing robert. while i haven't used my 14.5" in that way (yet) ... thank goodness seth has all that information on his website, a lot of us would be kind of wondering about all these things :)

- john

John Berry
27-Jan-2007, 00:38
Jason, at what size would this happen with a 9" Verito? Here is what I get on an 8x10 with the 9". I know the shot is a piece of crap, I only got to borrow it for a weekend.

Jeremy Moore
27-Jan-2007, 11:55
Here's a head and shoulders shot with the 9" on 8x10--gives a slight bowl due to the short focal length and filling the frame.

http://www.apug.org/gallery/data/500/caraverito.jpg