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John Cahill
28-Nov-2006, 11:36
This the first post for a LF neophyte.
Will boiled and filtered tap water serve as well as distilled water for sensitive types of photochemistry? Or should I buy it, or get one of my country neighbors to teach me how to build a small still?

John, Mount Vernon, Virginia USA

Bruce Watson
28-Nov-2006, 11:48
This the first post for a LF neophyte.
Will boiled and filtered tap water serve as well as distilled water for sensitive types of photochemistry? Or should I buy it, or get one of my country neighbors to teach me how to build a small still?

IMHO, boiled and filtered water is insufficient. Part of what you want to do is remove the mineral content and the really small dirt. Distilling will do this where boiling and filtering will not.

You can usually buy steam distilled water by the U. S. gallon at your local supermarket. If you really want to do it yourself, there are small water distillers on the market (I think Sears used to sell a couple). You could also look into reverse osmosis processors.

I know that I saw a market improvement in my B&W processing when I moved to all distilled water. And my city water here is pretty darn good. It's just not good enough...

lee\c
28-Nov-2006, 11:49
I buy distilled gallons of water for about $.50 a gallon for mixing chems.

lee\c

Brian Ellis
28-Nov-2006, 12:28
The only use I ever had for distilled water was to rinse finished prints to reduce water spots, the water in my darkroom was very hard. I don't offhand know of any chemical process in the typical silver-based darkroom for which distilled water is needed. Some people use it to mix developers, on the theory that by doing so they can change water sources (e.g. if they move) and not have to re-test, which makes some sense especially for people who move around a lot. I've been to five different darkroom workshops and the instructors just used tap water, they didn't suggest using distilled water. I wouldn't criticize anyone for using distilled water, if it makes you feel better or if the manufacturer of some product recommends it for that product by all means do it. It isn't expensive or overly difficult but I don't think it serves any real purpose for the routine silver-based darkroom steps.

Ron Marshall
28-Nov-2006, 12:45
I find Chicago water to be fine. I only use distilled water for mixing powdered chemicals that will then be stored for some time.

paulr
28-Nov-2006, 13:47
It's good for your final soak in photo flo, to eliminate mineral spots.

I use it for developer, for good measure, but have no way of knowing if it makes a difference. It at least gives some more assurance of consistency.

And there are some formulas, like Nelson Gold Toner, that require mixing with distilled water (in this case because chlorine will kill the toner).

ronald moravec
28-Nov-2006, 14:12
Chicago water is fine. I filter thru 4 layers of Bounty towels just to be sure in addition to a commercial 3 micronfilter. Probably overkill, but I never have a problem and used to spend hours spotting prints.

robc
28-Nov-2006, 14:18
I assume you are doing black and white. Off the shelf black and white chemicals are so well buffered against acidity variations in water supply that you would need to have a seriously bad water supply to see any effect on film development and that includes chlorine which will not effect your development. However, as has been stated, water contains minerals in solution and to get rid of those so as not to cause drying spots, a final rinse with distilled or deionised water is defintely worth it.
Always use chemicals which are fresh as possible and always store solutions in air tight containers which are full.

Where you are mixing your own chemical formulas and are uncertain about the buffering of the formula then using deionised or distilled water can't harm anything and could prevent potential problems.

John Cahill
28-Nov-2006, 14:54
Thank you all for your input. I am planning to develop my first fifty sheets of film in Rodinal and I figure with such dilution I should avoid tap water.

For years I have mixed up my D-23 and D-25R replenisher (for small and medium format) using collected AC runoff water, which I filter through a chemex type coffee filter. My developer and replenisher seem to last forever with no oxidation and no problems that I have ever been able to detect.

I guess the next question would be what you all think about using filtered AC water. I know 50 cents a gallon for distilled water at the supermarket is a pittance--but you do not know how cheap I am! Come Spring, I can begin collecting AC water again, if you all think that advisable as a substitute for distilled water.

Capocheny
28-Nov-2006, 16:44
John,

Can't speak for the others but I never had a problem (back in the days when I use to develop and print my own films) with using tap water for mixing chemistry. I use to use Rodinal, Accufine, and D76.

However, when I worked for a newspaper, all of their water was run through a filtration system and the filters were changed every other day.

That said, if you had the water we've had for the last couple of weeks, you'd most likely distill AND filter the stuff! It was pretty bad due to the storms we've been experiencing. In this case... I would have said distilled water would have been the order of the day! :)

Cheers

robc
28-Nov-2006, 16:45
If your that cheap then you'll be using cheap film, chemicals, paper, sundries, camera, accessories etc. So why not use cheap methods as well and not worry about it...:rolleyes:

John Cahill
28-Nov-2006, 17:26
Robc, Good points.
And you are right, although I prefer to think that I have, for many years, done things "frugally." I use a Pentax 6x7 rather than a Hasselblad; mix my own b/w chemistry rather than buy it commercially (except for this sortie into LF using Rodinal); use filtered AC water rather than distilled. I have not skimped on paper, however. I still have Zone VI Brilliant--the French-made stuff, and the "old" Oriental Seagull in my own personal chest freezer in the basement.
BTW, I also use the AC water for my house plants--but I do not bother to filter it. Do you think I should filter my water for the plants? And should I continue with chemex-type water filters, or should I go to a science lab supply place and buy "real" chemical filters. Please advise.

Donald Qualls
28-Nov-2006, 21:49
This the first post for a LF neophyte.
Will boiled and filtered tap water serve as well as distilled water for sensitive types of photochemistry?

I've been using (ion-exchange, carbon, micron particulate) filtered tap water, when I had access to it (most recently by buying a Pur filtered water cooler, just as Pur changed the design of the filters it uses so they no longer fit -- grrr), for mixing concentrates and dilution, as well as Ilford-style washing, for about three years; I used distilled only for the final wetting agent rinse.

Did the same with my C-41 developer, too, so far so good (I've used about 1/4 of it, but it's not a week old yet).

In the Seattle area, I bought the water from a dispense at the local supermarket, refilling my own gallon jugs and 3- and 5-gallon carboys. Here in North Carolina, filtered water must contain some gold; it costs more than distilled, hence my purchase of a cooler with internal filters (which has paid for itself in savings over distilled water even if I can never get another pair of filters for it).

Donald Qualls
28-Nov-2006, 21:50
If your that cheap then you'll be using cheap film, chemicals, paper, sundries, camera, accessories etc. So why not use cheap methods as well and not worry about it...:rolleyes:

Well, Rob, some of us *do* use cheap when it doesn't have a noticeable effect, because if we don't, we can't afford photography in any form and might as well just plant ourselves in front of the TV with a bag of chips and wait for the heart attack.

Louie Powell
28-Nov-2006, 21:53
Tap water for just about everything. The only exceptions are:

1. I use water processed through a reverse-osmosis drinking water filtration system mixed with photo-flo for the final rinse when processing negatives.

2. I have a gallon jug of distilled water that I keep around for diluting Pd/Pt chemicals.

Eric James
28-Nov-2006, 22:22
I'm not sure what the role of boiling the water is - unless you drink your fixer. Seriously though - I would think that boiling would tend to break up partical contaminants and render the filtration less effective. If "sensitive types of photochemistry" is your concern, I think distilled water would be cheap insurance.

robc
28-Nov-2006, 22:55
If there is a problem with your water supply then one of these will do the trick. They are quite cheap and simple to instal and the replacement filters are not expensive either. And the beauty of it is that water is on tap and doesn't have to be stored.

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=0150320

the link may be their UK site but I think they a US one as well.

Donald Qualls
29-Nov-2006, 12:55
I'm not sure what the role of boiling the water is - unless you drink your fixer. Seriously though - I would think that boiling would tend to break up partical contaminants and render the filtration less effective. If "sensitive types of photochemistry" is your concern, I think distilled water would be cheap insurance.

Boiling water drives out dissolved gases (like chlorine and oxygen, both of which could be bad for photo chemistry) and coagulated organic contaminants, which might otherwise deposit on your film. It's not at all as good as distilling, but it's a lot easier to manage.

The problem with distilled water is, unless you can afford to just throw money down the drain (which is what you're doing), it's easy to wind up with the *water* you use to process a roll or 8x10 equivalent costing more than the film -- even using Ilford wash, with distilled water at 97 cents a gallon here, it's hard to process four sheets of 4x5 (about $2 for the film I use) in much less than $1 worth of water, using the distilled for dilution, water stop bath, wash, and wetting agent rinse (and I don't presoak); minimum consumption runs around two liters for that amount of film, a little more if I'm mixing fixer for one-shot use as I've been doing lately. And after all, if your water isn't good enough for mixing developer or final rinse, do you want it touching your film at all? Really?

The filtered water I used to buy, at 35 cents a gallon, was much more reasonable. The water I filter myself, while not quite as pure (I don't have a pressure filter, so the particulate trap can't be as fine), is actually a little more (home filter cartridges are a serious ripoff if you can't afford to buy them by the case), but still about half the price of distilled.

And for some of us, little piddly stuff like this *does* make a difference, sometimes *the* difference between a photographer and a camera owner (or camera seller).

Herb Cunningham
29-Nov-2006, 13:41
I use a GE microfilter that filters out chlorine and other stuff, particles to 1 micron.

Works great

John Cahill
29-Nov-2006, 15:20
Thanks everyone for your input. Ask two photographers and one gets at least three opinions.

I have not been in the darkroom for several years because of health problems. Since my last forays into processing, I have added a whole house filter (Omni) to my water line which gets the big stuff out and an Omni charcoal filter on the cold water line coming in to the kitchen. I do not expect any problems with the majority of my photochemistry, but I was concerned about Rodinal because there is so much water in relation to the amount of chemistry.

I have decided to begin my adventures with LF by processing the first one hundred sheets of the same film in Rodinal only. I'll run my initial EI tests (On EFKE 4x5 and 5x7) with Rodinal 1+50 in distilled water, then switch to my filtered tap water and see what, if anything, changes. If my filtered house water is good enough for my french bread dough, it should be good enough for Rodinal, nicht wahr?
Thanks again.

tribby
29-Nov-2006, 15:25
i suffer from milky dmin and base...

my water suckles,

me

Michael Rosenberg
29-Nov-2006, 16:21
John,

Deionized water is not the same as distilled. MilliQ purified water is as good as distilled water. Depending on where you live you may need to mix up your stock developer solutions with distilled water due to heavy metals etc. that are not removed by deionizers and certainly not removed by filters bought at the local stores. In my part of NC the iron content of the water can differ within a half mile. Iron will kill certain developers, like Xtol - as will Ca and Mg. If you are using a water softner then you should use distilled water for mixing up your developers and for your final film rinse. Some developers, like Rodinal, are very robust and not sensitive to iron.

I think you would find it less frustrating to be consistent and pay for better water. Incidently, most tap water is neutral - but in clay rich soils it can be very acidic or very basic. Distilled water is pH 6.8-7.2.

Good luck.

Mike

robc
29-Nov-2006, 17:07
Just a note on distilled verses deionised. In most cases deionised water is purer than distilled. The purest distilled water has to be distilled several times to get to the purity of highly deionised water but that doesn't make the distlled water deionised. Steam carries minerals with it!

The link I gave above for a cheap deionising unit will provide water of better quality than your cheap 50c a gallon distilled water which is very likely only distilled once.

Donald Qualls
1-Dec-2006, 13:15
I do not expect any problems with the majority of my photochemistry, but I was concerned about Rodinal because there is so much water in relation to the amount of chemistry.

My filtered water is perfectly fine both for diluting and for mixing the concentrate of the homebrew Rodinal-like developer I use (Parodinal -- made from acetaminophen tablets, drain opening lye, and sodium sulfite). I'm approaching the bottom of a bottle of concentrate now that was mixed in May of this year, and the four sheets and one roll of film I processed today look great at the same times I'd use for commercial Rodinal 1:50.

Thing to remember with Rodinal is that the concentrate is so, well, concentrated. The 1:50 dilution is about 1/3 faster working than HC-110 1+79; HC-110 is usually considered a fast-working developer, yet Rodinal gives similar times at similar dilution. It's not that there's a lot of water in your Rodinal, so much, as that there's a lot of Rodinal in the concentrate.

Any case, lots of Rodinal users claim to be quite happy with tap water, unfiltered, but in some region tap water varies considerably with the season, both in kind and quantity of impurities and in pH -- using filtered water to improve consistency is a good thing, and MUCH cheaper than distilled.

Your whole-house filter plus on-tap charcoal cartridge should be just fine with Rodinal. Good luck with your processing!

John Cahill
1-Dec-2006, 14:44
Thanks, all for your help and suggestions. I shall be going forth with Rodinal and filtered water for 4x5 EFKE P25 this weekend.

FWIW, In cleaning up old bottles under my sink, I came across 600 ML of unused D-23 mixed in 1999 and still in a tightly capped bottle. It looked and smelled brand new. I think for kicks I try a roll of film in it. It was mixed with filtered AC run off water, which I saved in the summer time for chemistrty and watering my house plants.

.

Eric James
2-Dec-2006, 00:29
Boiling water drives out dissolved gases (like chlorine and oxygen, both of which could be bad for photo chemistry) and coagulated organic contaminants, which might otherwise deposit on your film. It's not at all as good as distilling, but it's a lot easier to manage...

...The filtered water I used to buy, at 35 cents a gallon, was much more reasonable. The water I filter myself, while not quite as pure (I don't have a pressure filter, so the particulate trap can't be as fine), is actually a little more (home filter cartridges are a serious ripoff if you can't afford to buy them by the case), but still about half the price of distilled.

And for some of us, little piddly stuff like this *does* make a difference, sometimes *the* difference between a photographer and a camera owner (or camera seller).

With all due respect sir, what the heck are "coagulated organic contaminants"? I don't doubt that Cl2 and 02 will mess with your photo-development chemistry, but I'm pretty sure you'll end up with the same concentration of 02 after you're back to darkroom temps. Don't get me wrong - I know that some of you like to develop your images in your favorite coffee plasma, and yak urine (1:1), but for the purpose intended by the question poster, I think that reliability and reproducibility are key. Reproducibility requires a known and constant solvent that doesn't muck-up your chemistry when the lights are low. How you achieve that consistency doesn't matter - 35c per gallon or half that is relevant only to the photographer’s budget. The key is reliability and reproducibility, and I don’t think that that’s achievable with a boiling pot and three thicknesses of paper towel employed as a filter:)

John Cahill
2-Dec-2006, 09:02
Eric et. al.
When I first got into the darkroom, many lab rats "processed" tap or well water for developer by boiling for several minutes, then filtering it through a lab filter. Believe it or not, some old formulary instructions suggested using rainwater for critical chemistry. Who collects rainwater these days?
Others contended that if the water was ok to drink it was ok for chemistry. Nowadays, our ideas about what is drinkable water has changed, I guess.
For years I used the run off water from my central AC unit, filtered through a coffee filter, to mix my D-23 and D-25R. One collects lots of AC water during our humid DC area summers. By the time I am doing that again, I shall have estbablished a baseline with Rodinal in distilled water, and with my tap water run through an Omni whole house filter and the tightest Omni they sell on my cold water line, I'll be able to check those results against AC water come next Spring.

Eric James
3-Dec-2006, 01:42
For years I used the run off water from my central AC unit, filtered through a coffee filter, to mix my D-23 and D-25R. One collects lots of AC water during our humid DC area summers. By the time I am doing that again, I shall have estbablished a baseline with Rodinal in distilled water, and with my tap water run through an Omni whole house filter and the tightest Omni they sell on my cold water line, I'll be able to check those results against AC water come next Spring.

I can certainly see the value in boiling water collected from a metropolitan area's AC effluent:) I still think that a commercial distilled water would best serve your critical work. Perhaps a high-volume carboy could be filled for less per gallon.


My filtered water is perfectly fine both for diluting and for mixing the concentrate of the homebrew Rodinal-like developer I use (Parodinal -- made from acetaminophen tablets, drain opening lye, and sodium sulfite).

I have only rudimentary darkroom experience and even less knowledge of darkroom chemistry. I'm curious about the role of acetaminophen (aka Tylenol, aka APAP, aka N-(4-hydroxyphenyl)acetamide, aka paracetamol) in "Parodinal".

Can anyone "push the electrons" for the reaction?

Donald Qualls
3-Dec-2006, 12:51
I have only rudimentary darkroom experience and even less knowledge of darkroom chemistry. I'm curious about the role of acetaminophen (aka Tylenol, aka APAP, aka N-(4-hydroxyphenyl)acetamide, aka paracetamol) in "Parodinal".

Can anyone "push the electrons" for the reaction?

An alternate name for paracetamol/acetaminophen is n-acetyl p-aminophenol, which makes it *much* easier to visualize what happens in this formula. The acetyl group cleaves off the p-aminophenol core when exposed to a strong hydroxide base, forming acetate and p-aminophenol base in solution. When mixing Parodinal, this reaction happens over a period of a day or two after mixing is complete. If not for the high levle of sulfite in solution, the p-aminophenol would continue to degrade from the action of the hydroxide, but the mixed solution will keep for many months, or until the liquid level in the storage container is so low that the trapped air overcomes the preservative and oxidizes the developing agent too much (in my case, that usually happens when there's about 10 ml left of a 200 ml batch of concentrate, stored in a jar originally sold with bread machine yeast).

BTW, if you make some of this, don't worry about the little rags and tags of tableting material (starch and wax) left from the crushed tablets in the concentrate solution -- they dissolve almost instantly on dilution. Surely better if you could get the acetaminophen in powder or even better concentrated solution, but it works just fine with tablets, crushed in the corner of an envelope with (in my case) an 8 ounce ball pien hammer.

If you Google for "p-aminophenol from acetaminophen" (with the quotes) you should find a couple threads from the Usenet group rec.photo.darkroom from 2003, which were the first public mention I'm aware of for an acetaminophen based developer. The original chemistry work was apparently done by a Dutch worker. I gave it the name Parodinal, though others probably use different names for it.

Kirk Keyes
4-Dec-2006, 10:34
I gave it the name Parodinal, though others probably use different names for it.

I like "Tyledol".

F'ueco
5-Dec-2006, 15:52
At work, we use filtered Santa Cruz tapwater for most of the chemistries. I use distilled water for the final rinse of the E6 processor. We normally get 2.5 gallon jugs from the local drugstore. I seem to recall them being around $2.29. Of course, I need 20 gallons; and changed the tank completely once per week...

I've also found that the excess (of the water, not the mixed stabilizer!) makes pretty decent coffee... =)