Mac Users - How Much is Enough?

[Hugh Sakols]

I use a Mac G4 tower 867 GHZ and 1 Gig Ram. Processing is a bit slow on my large files but I imagine that I need at least 2 gigs RAM . Would increasing to say 1.5 or 2 GHZ really make much of a difference when working with Photoshop CS? I'd to quickly open two files and make side by side comparisions. I would especially like to hear from those who have made the transition from a G4 to G5 (not neccessarily the new intel machine).

[Marko]

Photoshop tends to be both CPU and RAM intensive. Oh, and it can be disk intensive too. So, to answer your question: yes, you would likely see a big boost in performance with a jump to G5, as you would likely be upgrading all three aspects.

If you decide to make a switch, do yourself a favour and get a second physical disk with as much capacity as you can afford and use it for Phothsop scratch only. A partition on the single disk would do, but not nearly as much. Also, get as much RAM as you can. Both disk and RAM are cheap these days and they will speed you up.

Good luck. :)

[Gordon Moat]

Oddly enough, the most noticable speed increase can often be found by installing a faster harddrive. Another possibility is adding a separate scratch space drive, especially if kept internally (as opposed to an external USB or FireWire scratch drive). The RAM and processor changes are very small incremental changes; some published tests indicate barely 10% to 20% changes in difficult processes from doubling the processor speed. If you are using lots of time consuming filters or doing incremental rotations of images, the a different processor or more RAM might help. With more normal PhotoShop procedures, you might often find just installing a faster drive or a separate scratch disk really speeds things up.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

[false_Aesthetic]

I'm pretty sure you'd "feel" an improvement moving from g4 -> g5 even if processor speed and ram stayed the same.

I had your tower (Exactly). and I moved to a souped up g4 tower (1.5 gig ram 1.6 ghz processor)... I did a bunch of work for a commercial photographer on the machine. Frequently the files were 800megs.... it chugged and chugged.

Then the digital lab at school got the "new" Imacs (g5s not intels) Basic processors and 1 gig ram. Totally awesome and totally fast.

Now I work between a g5 tower with 2 gigs of ram and whatever dual processor and my own 20" 2gig ram dual 2.16 gig Imac. . . . even running rosetta the imac is faster (this could just be my head though)


Upgrading would be an awesome idea. You'll def. notice it. But you don't have to upgrade to the new mac pros to feel the difference.

[paulr]

macgurus.com has just put their excellent photoshop performance info into a PDF file. This is the most comprehensive source on the subject that I've seen:

http://homepage.mac.com/boots911/.Public/PhotoshopAccelerationBasics2.3.pdf

[Keith S. Walklet]

Hugh,

You will notice a big jump in performance moving from the G4 to G5. A year ago, I moved up to a refurb dualy with a couple gigs of RAM and some big internal drives and the difference is night and day. Should have done it sooner. I bump all the other recommendations posted here.

[Ken Lee]

Here's a tip: Save your file, close Photoshop often, and restart it.

Every time you make a change (even if it doesn't involve the creation of another layer) additional RAM is consumed, so that you can revert in the History tool. RAM is not recovered until you close the program.

[Hugh Sakols]

Keith,

Good to hear - I may try and look for a good used one. I haven't made a print in over three months because we are settling in to our new home in Old El Portal. One day soon I'll be back up and running. I notice when i don't make images I spent too much time on this forum.

I'm so sorry to hear about Steve Medley - I heard there was quite a gathering for his memorial.

[robc]

Here's a tip: Save your file, close Photoshop often, and restart it.

Every time you make a change (even if it doesn't involve the creation of another layer) additional RAM is consumed, so that you can revert in the History tool. RAM is not recovered until you close the program.

Here's a better tip: Goto Edit/Purge which does the same without closing PS;)

[QT Luong]

My upgrade from a G4 to a G5 (DP) resulted in very significant speed gains. The G5s currently can be a good bargain, since they are not much in demand with the move to Intel, however I expect PS CS 3 (next spring) on the new macpros to crush them.

[Jeffrey Sipress]

Much depends on how you work and your file size. I work on LF 16 bit scans up to 200-300 MB often, and typically have 4 to 8 layers in my master psd file. My old G4 with 1 gig was completely prohibitive. Every time Saved, I could cook and eat a meal while it saved. If this is your work style, you need a new G5 (dual perhaps) and 2.5 gig or more of ram. A few 250 to 500 GB drives and at least one large monitor would help. I use a 23" cinema display and a 21" Lacie side by side, and my biggest drive is a 1TB RAID level 5.

[jim kitchen]

Dear Hugh,

Your least expensive move, and the best move to a faster Photoshop platform, would be to install more ram, whether you own a G4 or a G5. Photoshop benefits from more ram, as well as your processor. What a few folks might not realize, is that Photoshop usurps your ram, and chokes the Mac OS. There is a huge memory leak in all current versions of Photoshop, which is a cumulative leak, and it is rumoured that Adobe isolated the leak, while converting the application to its new native environment in CS3. This leak within the Photoshop code, originally appeared in OS9 Carbon, and since Photoshop was hastily converted to OSX Cocoa OOP environment, the leak remained. A memory leak, for those that might not know about this term, is a fault within an application where a programmer did not properly code the application to release and allow the return of allocated memory back to the stack, after the application completes a task. This could be a simple task, such as setting a mask, or rotating an image. Other applications, such as the Mac OS, require the use of any available returned memory. Since this is a cumulative leak, all available memory is eventually digested by the offending application, the application stalls; the OS stalls, which forces the user to initiate a cold restart. Adding a separate HD scratch disk and, or a RAID array with eSata drives, is your next biggest performance boost, along with reducing the available ram that Photoshop can use. Reducing Photoshop's allocation to 50% compared to 70% will assist the Mac OS.

Doubling your ram to 2gb will give your Mac OS some headroom to breath, but installing 4gb of ram will allow Photoshop to play alone and give the Mac OS enough room to operate the OS properly, whether you own a G4 or a G5. Owning a newer, faster processor will definitely give you a performance boost too.

As a side note, if you notice Photoshop slowing down because you do not have enough ram, and you get the spinning beach ball of death; there are a few things you can do to relieve this issue. The number one cure is to break Photoshop's stranglehold over the available ram, by touching the desktop with a mouse click, and starting up another application. This pseudo cure is one of several methods to prevent an all out "Force Quit" with Photoshop, which will allow you the option of at least saving your work at some point in time. When you start another application, the Mac OS, tries to intervene on behalf of the user, where it politely reminds Photoshop to play fair, but Photoshop does not want to listen, so it politely pushes back. Therefore the beachball. The Mac OS will eventually win the contest, but only because it presses Photoshop constantly to release some of the usurped ram where the Mac OS quickly takes it, and at some point in time you will notice that Photoshop gives back the control to the OS. When this happens, save your work and restart your computer. Restarting your computer, resets all the ram allocation, and if you are intent on using Photoshop, establish it is the first application to start, not the last.

jim k

[Ken Lee]

Here's a better tip: Goto Edit/Purge which does the same without closing PS;)

Perhaps things run differently depending on platform, but on my Mac, looking at the Activity Monitor, the RAM in use by Photoshop is unchanged, after I perform a purge.

Even after I close the file, PS holds onto the RAM, both Real Memory and Virtual Memory. If I reopen the same file, and perform the same operation on it again, PS takes up more memory yet.

[Jim Ewins]

I don't have a prior to compare with my iMac G5, but after 12,000 images on my hard drive it was less responsive. I dumped it all on an external HD and it's fast again.

[robc]

Disk fragmentation is a big problem which builds up over time, especially as the disk becomes increasingly full. Backing up and then deleting what was backed up from the hard drive and then restore to hard drive will improve disk performance.
Also defragmentation programs will improve disk performance but make sure you back up everything prior to running a defrag routine.

[robc]

Perhaps things run differently depending on platform, but on my Mac, looking at the Activity Monitor, the RAM in use by Photoshop is unchanged, after I perform a purge.

Even after I close the file, PS holds onto the RAM, both Real Memory and Virtual Memory. If I reopen the same file, and perform the same operation on it again, PS takes up more memory yet.

Sounds like you have the memory leak described above.

[Marko]

Disk fragmentation is a big problem which builds up over time, especially as the disk becomes increasingly full. Backing up and then deleting what was backed up from the hard drive and then restore to hard drive will improve disk performance.
Also defragmentation programs will improve disk performance but make sure you back up everything prior to running a defrag routine.

That's true for Windows, but it is not nearly such a huge problem on OS X, especially versions 10.3 and up.

Apple Knowledge Base has a good article (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25668) on that topic, and there are some good discussions (http://www.macfixitforums.com/php/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=Forum38&Number=570817&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1) on MacFixIt.

[robc]

what you really need are a couple of these. That should sort out any scratch disk problems. Might make you bankrupt though:eek:

http://www.superssd.com/products/ramsan-400/indexb.htm

[toyoman]

I use an 867, dual 1ghz, and a dual 2.0. I am an old mac user (apple 512k guy) and I think the effort is in looking at what you want to get out of your images. I have worked and output files as big as 7 by 22 feet and have not noticed much in the difference between the dual 1 ghz g4 and the dual ghz 2 g5. Except for the more memory thang in the g5 what is really slowing any of our computers is that we are being held back in the stone age with hard drives. I have felt strongly that once we go into using ram for storage instead of hard-drives, then the speed of the processor will be mute (can't wait personallly, sort of like we should be in flying cars). For the curious the file took an extra 30 seconds to 1.5 minutes to do manipulations such as layer effects, transforms, and the suchlike for the final print. File size was around 3.5 gigs (240 dpi), and the older g4 dual did just fine even with the less memory (it is topped out at 1.5 gig, at work,the g5 has 3.5 gigs, and was used for the final output). But this size is very unusual for printing. Unless we all start using 32 bits per color, there is no use for much faster units. Of course that new dual 3.0 with CS 3.0 sure has a nice ring to it...

[Hugh Sakols]

Now that I'm back from the holiday I have much to digest - thanks for all tips. I printed the adobe document on optimizing my mac for photoshop.

If I get more RAM for my G4 will I be able to transfer it to a new G5.

At this point what I can't really do is make photoshop changes in 16 bit mode to my large files that come out of my Minolta Multi Pro at 3200 dpi. However, I question how important this really is if you get your image pretty close in the scanning software??? If you get a Tango Scan from West Coast Imaging it is in 8 bit.

[Ed Richards]

You can speed things up on your current machine by turning off history and reducing the number of undos that are saved. You have to be more careful about saving your work so you can revert if you need to, but it makes a big difference while you are saving for that new machine.

[dan nguyen]

- yes you will see speed jump by going from G4 to G5 (dual proc is even better

- the more ram the better

- dedicated empty hard drive for scratch disk to PS

- always start PS first when you boot up the computer

[Ken Lee]

What a few folks might not realize, is that Photoshop usurps your ram, and chokes the Mac OS. There is a huge memory leak in all current versions of Photoshop, which is a cumulative leak...

Jim -

I have just experienced this behavior, using Photoshop CS. As you point out, using more RAM and additional drives for scratch disks, only delay the inevitable. Heavens !

Do you know whether the newly published CS3 beta suffers from the same bug ?

Where did you find out about this bug ?

[Jim Ewins]

:) I have a iMacG5 and found after loading over 10,000 images that it was getting slow. I moved those files to an external hard drive and the work speed is again fast, although not so different from a iBookG4.

[jim kitchen]

Ken,

I am a developer within Apple's network of application programmers, where I practice this binary art form, to reroute my attention from other real world corporate tasks...

This memory leak issue is a long standing bug within Apple and Adobe, and unfortunately I cannot discuss programming topics openly, since Apple religiously enforces and exercises an NDA. I can tell you, I am led to believe the memory leak is either addressed, or being addressed for CS3.

You are correct in stating the issue will not disappear until the memory leak is addressed properly. Adding incremental ram is the only viable solution for the moment, which allows the Mac OS to function and breathe properly, until Photoshop finally usurps all the available ram. Faster hard drives, dual processors et al, will bring value added benefits to a power user immediately, but these hardware related items cannot over come an application that requires periodic attention.

To eliminate this slowdown and, or prevent the endless spinning beachball, you must restart your computer periodically to clear the corrupt memory stack.

jim k

[Ken Lee]

Thanks Jim Kitchen - I understand about the non-discosure agreement, and am grateful for what you have shared already.

Jim Ewins - In my experience, the problem arises when editing large files: my 4x5 and 5x7 negatives scanned at high res. When working on the (comparatively) small files generated by my point-and-shoot digicam, I haven't seen any problems.

[Lenny Eiger]

I agree with much of what has been said. G5's are way faster. RAID arrays (fast hard drives) make a big difference as well. Yes, CS3 on Intel chips should outdo everything. Altho' we ought to have this info by now since the beta is out... I don't thinak Adobe has fixed all their memory issues, either. When they can use more than 3Gigs of RAM, a lot of things hsould open up...

There was one thing you didn't mention, however, and that is what you consider a large file. I consider it large when it gets over 2 Gigs. some people consider it large when it gts over 30 megs. There is a big difference...

Lenny
eigerphoto.com

[Ken Lee]

Good point: My large files start out around 200 MB. I use a Powerbook, but I may have to eat my words about Windows and go back to using my PC until Adobe gets their bug solved.

[Ken Lee]

Jim Kitchen - Many thanks for your suggestion about limiting the % of RAM allowed to Photoshop. That has really cleared up some problems for me.

Another question: To what extent will it be advantageous to get an Intel-based Mac, when Photoshop CS 3 is finally released ? Will things be optimized for the Intel chipset, to the detriment of older Power-PC based machines ? (I have a G4 PowerBook)

[Marko]

Jim Kitchen - Many thanks for your suggestion about limiting the % of RAM allowed to Photoshop. That has really cleared up some problems for me.

Another question: To what extent will it be advantageous to get an Intel-based Mac, when Photoshop CS 3 is finally released ? Will things be optimized for the Intel chipset, to the detriment of older Power-PC based machines ? (I have a G4 PowerBook)

Ken,

CS3 for OSX is Universal Binary, which means that it should run natively on both the Intel and the PowerPC. FWIW, I'm running CS3 Beta on Intel CoreDuo iMac and it is running circles around CS2 on the same machine (running under Rosetta).

I don't normally process really big files (close to a gig or more) but I cannot imagine that the advantage would be any smaller with those.

[Ken Lee]

I though that the Beta expired very quickly. Did you purchase a license ?

[jim kitchen]

Dear Ken,

I apologize for the delayed response...

Work has a way of interfering with pleasurable things in life.

The heart of the issue, is the width of the processor channels and the data that will be processed eventually, and not necessarily with this current chip set. 64bit processing channels will be the norm for a while, with 128bit and 256bit channels a few years out. You will also see stacked 64bit processing channels imitating broader 128bit and 256bit channels, where micro switches will stream and split data within existing chip sets, until a true 128bit or 256bit channel is developed within a smaller, yet cooler three to four micron processor.

Resulting from the increased data transmission rates, you will see applications like Photoshop improve with 64bit processing, where you will eventually see the 4gb processing limit expire. Companies like Aztek developed software for their drum scanners that allow 28gb files to be extracted from an 8x10 negative, allowing greater tonal capture. Photoshop will require a few updates with CS3, since I mentioned earlier that the original software was based on OS9, and with a team of well-balanced programmers buried deep within Apple and Adobe, that software will be scalable to accept the wider, more powerful bandwidths as they become available. Many folks will always ask the question why do we need more data, when the output devices are truly limited, and many will argue why should we worry when we can supposedly only recognize 300dpi or less in an image.

For myself, I think that the difference could be the equivalent of a 24X30 image printed with a 35mm negative compared to the same print printed with an 8X10 negative. You can see the difference in the image. I can see the difference between a well managed 4X5 scanned image and a well managed 8X10 scanned image, where the difference in a printed 16X20 image is not as subtle as many would believe. Printers of the future will not be DPI challenged like they are today.

As a side note, IBM announced a few months ago that they developed a processor capable of operating at 500GHz, yes that is 500, which will be placed in their latest servers. Ken, you will not be disappointed with a newer Intel based purchase, where I know I will purchase a new dual quad unit in the fall of 2007 to add to my small existing arsenal. Technology will always find a way to make mundane, tedious processing tasks, a historical event. I will give my new computer a six-month window, where I will begin to believe it is slow... :)

jim k

[Marko]

I though that the Beta expired very quickly. Did you purchase a license ?

Only if you use it in a demo mode. If you have a CS2 licence, you needn't pay for CS3 Beta until the final version comes out, but you do have to register in order to receive the working serial number.

[Marko]

Also, as far as I know, the upcoming OS X 10.5 (Leopard) will be 64-bit and so will Photoshop CS3. Now that's going to be fast. :)

[Roger Krueger]

Biggest speed boost I've seen opening/saving huge files is making sure that you are reading/saving from a different physical drive than your scratch disk. Bonus points if neither is your system disk, and if the read/write and scratch drives are on different buses. All should be ATA/SATA, Firewire/USB drives are only suitable for archiving things. Yes this probably means buying a card to support this many drives/buses, although some MDD machines (maybe all?) have both an ATA/66 bus and an ATA/100 bus, and room for four drives.

When I have a bunch of big images to deal with I have a script to save all of the images at half or quarter rez, and I do all the dodge/burn/levels/curves stuff in adjustment layers in these reduced 16-bit files. I then have another script that batch resizes them back to original size, swaps in a clean version of the base file, and then saves out a flattened 8-bit for any retouching work.

[Ken Lee]

Only if you use it in a demo mode. If you have a CS2 licence, you needn't pay for CS3 Beta until the final version comes out, but you do have to register in order to receive the working serial number.

SOLD ! I upgraded to CS2. Thanks a lot.