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View Full Version : Canon iPF8000 vs. HP Z3100



Chris_Brown
21-Nov-2006, 22:48
Lat month I had the opportunity to tour the HP plant in Corvalis, OR. During the tour we stopped at the area where HP allows any employee to play with HP equipment. Printers, scanners, computers, kiosks, copiers, TV screens (with reception). It was pretty nice.

While we were there, they showed us the Z2100 printer, the small sibling to the Z3100. The HP Vivera inkset works in concert with HP papers for zero bronzing, immediate drying and immediate waterproofness. It was weird to print out an 8x10 then go to the sink, run hot water over the print and wipe it off without hurting the print at all.

We ran a few of my files, then I ordered sample prints from their website. (https://h30267.www3.hp.com/country/us/en/designjet/printbig/photography.html?pageseq=695523)

Today I received samples from a Canon iPF5000. They look very nice, every bit as nice as the HP prints. I will study the inkjet patterns next week.

At a first glance, both these printers offer a Dmax that beats my Epson 9600 hands down. The inkjet technology is totally different between Epson and either Canon or HP, and it may be time to upgrade my printer.

Has anyone else compared these two printer models?

Here's my initial breakdown between these two printers:

The price difference is about $2000 -- the HP is more -- but comes with an on-board spectrophotometer
The Canon requires off-line profiling
HP does not offer any of their premium, fast-dry, low-bronzing photo papers in 44" widths
Canon claims to have a color gamut near the Adobe 98 color gamut
Canon claims the 12-ink printer can print 16-bit color with a special driver
Canon can use extra large 700ml ink cartridges


Any helpful insight into either of these two printers?

Ted Harris
22-Nov-2006, 07:06
A couple of thoughts:

1) The idea of an onboard spectrophotometer struck me as neat at first and then I started thinking .... why? To profile papers or because the printer won't stay in alignment?? Just a thought after discussing it with several printers.

2) Neither the Canon nor the HP printer famiies have enough third party support yet for me to be comfortable with them. ImagePrint and StudioPrint are availabel for the Canons and ColorBurst is coming soon. Nothing for the HP yet AFAIK. I know ColorBurst will be workingon HP RIPs after they finish the Canon's or that is their plan now.

We are planning on running a side-by-side test of all three systems for View Camera but I thought I'd wait until I had all the major RIPs available to run the article. I will likely start testing the Canon the end of this year or early January as ColorBurst is supposed to be ready by then. As we are now in the planning stages all ideas and comments are welcome. Please email me at tedharris@fourpointlanding.com.

Ted Harris
22-Nov-2006, 07:06
A couple of thoughts:

1) The idea of an onboard spectrophotometer struck me as neat at first and then I started thinking .... why? To profile papers or because the printer won't stay in alignment?? Just a thought after discussing it with several printers.

2) Neither the Canon nor the HP printer famiies have enough third party support yet for me to be comfortable with them. ImagePrint and StudioPrint are availabel for the Canons and ColorBurst is coming soon. Nothing for the HP yet AFAIK. I know ColorBurst will be workingon HP RIPs after they finish the Canon's or that is their plan now.

We are planning on running a side-by-side test of all three systems for View Camera but I thought I'd wait until I had all the major RIPs available to run the article. I will likely start testing the Canon the end of this year or early January as ColorBurst is supposed to be ready by then. As we are now in the planning stages all ideas and comments are welcome. Please email me at tedharris@fourpointlanding.com.

Chris_Brown
22-Nov-2006, 07:46
The fellows at HP/Corvalis told me a couple of interesting things about these new printers.

Prints with no bronzing can only be achieved using HP Vivera inks and certain HP papers. The inks and papers work together to eliminate bronzing.
HP has developed a cartridge recycle program that is free to the user. Every large cartridge comes with a postage paid mailer to send in the old cartridge.
The spectrophotometer is an X-rite/Gretag MacBeth Eye1. The system is designed for users to create and access ICC profiles for any substrate the printer can handle. I'm not sure what software comes with the printer (i.e., can I edit those profiles with the supplied software?).
This is HP's first LF printer aimed at Epson's 4800 & 9800 customers, and at professional LF printer/photographer.


The sales rep at ColorByte Software told me they were going to begin development of ImagePrint for the Canon iPF printers and support 16-bit printing. ImagePrint has a steep annual fee for 44" wide printers ($500 per year) and, IMO, the only thing keeping them above the crowd is their B&W RIP'ing. I wonder if the upgrade cost will be worth it. Canon already has a 16-bit driver, in the form of a Photoshop plug-in, but I havn't seen any results.

jonf
22-Nov-2006, 10:05
I have the ipf8000. It is my first wide format printer, so I don't have anything to compare it to. And, I just got it, so I haven't printed very much on it, yet.

One comment though......

I'm not sure about the need for a RIP for the printer (out-of-the-box it already has 16bit plug-in, will print 60' long, can gang jobs on roll paper, and does not have any absurd ink switching requirements - special photoblack-matte-glossy substitute speciality ink, whatever). I realize that the RIP companies will claim, and will probably be able to back it up, their ability to (slightly) modify color and all that stuff, but the value of an (extrememly overpriced in most cases) RIP may not be that significant for this machine.

Epson had better answer with some serious improvements to their line or they are going to lose a bunch of customers.....

Chris_Brown
22-Nov-2006, 10:57
I'm not sure about the need for a RIP for the printer (out-of-the-box it already has 16bit plug-in, will print 60' long, can gang jobs on roll paper, and does not have any absurd ink switching requirements - special photoblack-matte-glossy substitute speciality ink, whatever). I realize that the RIP companies will claim, and will probably be able to back it up, their ability to (slightly) modify color and all that stuff, but the value of an (extrememly overpriced in most cases) RIP may not be that significant for this machine.
I totally agree. My experience with the little i9900 showed that Canon's printer driver for the Mac was 100% adequate for my needs and integrated very well with the OS.

You say it's possible to gang prints onto roll paper. That is a huge benefit for me, as I print many different images on my Epson using ImagePrint. I was thinking that to print many different images the user would have to create a new image with all of them combined and print one huge file.


Epson had better answer with some serious improvements to their line or they are going to lose a bunch of customers.....
I agree. Competition is always good, but I did buy an extended warranty with my 9600 and had excellent service when I ran into problems.

My question for you, Jonf, is have you profiled any papers yet? Do you plan to and if so, what methods will you use?

Gordon Moat
22-Nov-2006, 11:52
I have tons of samples from large (or wide carriage) printers, since these are becoming more common as proofing printers for commercial work. Just going by some figures a printing company in the Netherlands, and another in Australia, shared with me the Canon W6400 and W8400 run near the cost of comparible HP models (previous DesignJet line, not newer ones you mentioned). The HP inkjet division also runs out of San Diego, but I have yet to get an indication of the newest printers dropping the cost per sq.ft. of output as compared to their previous printers. The biggest indication I got from a few people was that there is still a lingering perception that dye inks are bad, and pigment inks are good; implying that the newer machines with pigment inks are intended to sell better. Bottom line, if you like the printed quality, that is your first test of the printer; then investigate your operating costs.

RIPs are another story, and if you have a favourite that will not be supporting a given printer model, I personally don't think that is a good reason to avoid a particular printer. RIP software is not substantially varied enough for that qualification to kill off considering a printer. EFI (http://www.efi.com) are working on a RIP for the newest Canon printers, and have been making RIPs for HP DesignJets for years (check out their Designer Edition RIP for a reasonable cost alternative). ImagePrint is available now for the HP 130 and HP 90, though if you are fundamentally oppposed to dye ink printers you might want to avoid those.

If you need a wide printer for work, then try to get a subscription to The Big Picture (http://www.bigpicture.net) to revue lots of current choices. There are far more printers on the market than Epson, HP and Canon, many of them with running costs substantially lower than the printers commonly discussed in internet forums. Seiko is the professional line of Epson, and HP also make industrial strength printers. Don't simply look at the cost to buy the printer, consider the cost to run it a few years. Check what service is available, such as on-site, or replacement printers.

A company called LexJet (http://www.lexjet.com) makes replacement inks for some HP printers (like the DesignJet 5500), and there are more paper choices than what HP indicate. HP has this bad habit of only certifying their papers, but the reality is many other papers will work in many of their printers. If you do proofing, you will find that only a few of their papers went through SWOP (http://www.swop.org) proofing certification.

The reasons to stay with Epson are many experienced users to help you with problems, sort of like a huge support group. There are far fewer such individuals using HP, Canon, Roland, Mutoh, ColorSpan, Vutek, Xaar, Nur, Encad (Kodak), Mimaki, or Scitex (now HP) posting to the internet. The results from wide Epson printers are good enough that they are in use by many individuals and some galleries.

The spectrophotometer can be a time saver. Any inkjet system using any type of ink can vary with temperature, humidity, which inkset is installed (even changing one cartridge) and batch of paper in use. When I have heard even Epson engineers mention using a separate spectrophotometer for proofing, I think that validates why someone might want that built into a printer. However, if you are doing fine art prints, and are mostly satisfied with the output as it comes (or from using profiles), then it is not a big deal to do any measuring.

Seriously, to the original poster, there is a ton of information available, but far more than you will find in any internet forum. Prior to spending many thousands of dollars, do some research. One good one I have found is Spencer Labs (http://www.spencerlab.com/publications/), though I don't know if they have a comparison published yet for the printers you are investigating, but check their listings. Another is FLAAR (http://www.flaar.org), though some highly criticize them, and their reports can be pricey. Anyway, pay more attention to operating costs and service than initial prices, and you might end up with a good printer.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

Amadou Diallo
22-Nov-2006, 15:14
A couple of things to note about these two machines. The Z3100 is not slated for release till year end. I have had prints made on it by HP at the Photo Plus show. Very impressive output, but until I and others can get a production unit in-house, there are lots more questions than answers. And while the 2100 and 3100 series share identical hardware, the 3100 is the only HP with a quad black solution. On matte papers they print with 4 dilutions simultaneously--no color pigs in a grayscale print. In fact they are using 100% GCR. Any neutral RGB values in a color print use the K inks. That's an OEM first and of great significance to bw printmakers, both in terms of image longevity and metamerism.
The 8000 is of course shipping.But I have to say at this Canon should be embaressed at their tech support for a professional printer. No manuls or even drivers are available online. The techs don't even have an 8000 in-house yet. In a few weeks I should have some experience with the printer which I'll share. But anyone relying on this printer in a print for pay environment is going to need a much better support comittment from Canon.

jonf
22-Nov-2006, 17:21
My question for you, Jonf, is have you profiled any papers yet? Do you plan to and if so, what methods will you use?

No, I am still learning how to use the printer with the standard profiles on canon papers (of which there are a bunch of photo, fine art, canvass, Hahnemuhle, and the vinyls and all that). Once I master those I will likely move on to profiling. At this point it is not profiles and new papers that are limiting me, its my ability and understanding of the printer (if you know what I mean) and preparing the files for wide format printing with photoshop.

There is a supplied software mechanism where (my understanding) is that you can load profiles into the machine, and which loads new canned profiles as canon releases them. How you make those profiles is up to you I guess.


ABut I have to say at this Canon should be embaressed at their tech support for a professional printer. No manuls or even drivers are available online. The techs don't even have an 8000 in-house yet. In a few weeks I should have some experience with the printer which I'll share. But anyone relying on this printer in a print for pay environment is going to need a much better support comittment from Canon.

I am not defending Canon or anything here.....

They do need to beef up their technical support lines. One time I called and the rep knew what he was talking about. The other time I had to teach the exact same rep about the operation of the gang printing feature. (I was calling for help with features that were detailed in the manual - I just couldn't find them - not because I was having problems with the printer). The last time I called inquiring about an optional feature and the rep did know the correct answer. Yes they are playing catchup here.

So that people don't misunderstand the above post, The machine includes a setup manual, a hard copy of a users manual, and pretty extensive (but not comprehensive) electronic users manual, and the drivers (and associated software). You are correct, they aren't online, but they do come with the unit. I expect profiles and drivers will be added as they are updated from what is shipping. Again, it doesn't matter to me if people buy a canon printer or not, I just didn't want people to think that there were no manuals, drivers, for the printer yet.

Yes, the tech support is playing catch up and better documentation would be better. Only time will tell how much people will actually have to use tech support for this printer.

Amadou Diallo
22-Nov-2006, 18:14
Yes, jonf is right that manuals and drivers come with the printer. In my case the driver CD got lost when moving the printer. I figured no big deal I'll just download it from the web...To be fair the tech rep went out of his way to burn me a disc and ship it overnight, but it really seems like they've been put in an unfortunate situation. I have no doubt that in time they will tighten things up, but along with the usual caveats about being on the bleeding edge, these are some of the things people should be aware of.

I also meant to point out that with the samples marketing sends out for printers, the companies are often times shooting themselves in the foot. I received HP samples from the B9180 that were just inexcusable. Oversharpened images with halos you could drive a truck through and noticeable banding. But real-world output by actual users I've seen are much much better. So don't put too much stock in a print sample unless you have confidence in who made it. Don't assume that if it comes from the manufacturer that they're putting their best foot forward.

I'm not always this angry, btw ;-)

Chris_Brown
30-Nov-2006, 06:41
I love it seeing HP sticking it to Epson for not having both Matte/photo black at the same time. Big mistake for Epson, using that as an excuse for people to have to upgrade. Games over.
I'm also very glad HP and Canon have targeted our market. Things can only get better from here.

While on my little tour at HP/Corvalis, the two managers accompanying me said they don't consider Epson the competition, but rather Canon with their excellent knowledge of color processing. They told me HP won the printer market from Epson when HP introduced the LaserJet in 1985 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_printer) while Epson dawdled with dot matrix printing. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Epson_MX-80.jpg) For the last 20 years, HP has focused their printer division on the profitable office and consumer market with their laser printers, and only in the last few years has begun to focus on the photogtaphic imaging market, spending millions on ink & paper research. If you look at HP's 2005 annual report, (http://library.corporate-ir.net/library/71/710/71087/items/188195/05ar-graphics.pdf) you'll see the "Imaging and Printing Group" lost money because of huge R&D expenses.

I remember choking at the cost of a DeVere 4x5 dichroic enlarger in 1985. Given the current cost of LF inkjet printers, I'm becoming very pleased with where digital printing is going.

Ted Harris
30-Nov-2006, 14:56
I echo Chris' sentiment to a certain extent but will wait until I can actually see real world results. Both the Canon and HP printers are impressive and I have also gotten similar comments from HP product managers that they are going after "our" market. Time will tell if they are really willing to devote the time and resources and if third party companies support their efforts (same holds for Canon). Both of them are capable of takin on Epson but we don't yet know how many resources and how much time they are willing to invest in doing so.

One of the reasons I am cautious is that I am all too well aware of the time it takes to crackthis market and that such time (a few years) may not sit well with company stockholders who want to see an ROI in quarters not years. Meanwhile, I hacve my fingers crossed and am looking forward to testing printers.

Bill_1856
30-Nov-2006, 15:04
Because HP printers require their special papers to give proper and archival results, I won't be buying another one. I can't even get Legal-size Premium Plus HP paper for my HP 7960 to make 8x12 prints, a 2:3 format size which has been a standard in the photo industry for many years.

Chris_Brown
30-Nov-2006, 15:28
I echo Chris' sentiment to a certain extent but will wait until I can actually see real world results.

You can order sample prints from HP here. (https://h41186.www4.hp.com/country/us/en/printbig/photography.html?pageseq=903583) They are very nice, too. I have a set. :D

I also ordered a set of Canon iPF8000 prints from Professional Marketing (http://www.promarketinc.com/index.html) which came within a week. Those, too, are very nice, but there is no notation as to what paper and ink settings the images were printed with.

Chris_Brown
30-Nov-2006, 15:29
Because HP printers require their special papers to give proper and archival results, I won't be buying another one. I can't even get Legal-size Premium Plus HP paper for my HP 7960 to make 8x12 prints, a 2:3 format size which has been a standard in the photo industry for many years.

Bill, you wouldn't consider using a larger format and cutting the prints down to size? I do that with my Epson all the time.

Chris_Brown
1-Dec-2006, 06:47
"Because HP printers require their special papers to give proper and archival results"

I wonder how true this is any more.

Told to me first hand at HP/Corvalis:

To achieve the archival specs published by HP, the Vivera inks must be used with certain HP papers.
Bronzing is not guaranteed to be eliminated if other papers are used.
The published drying times cannot be guaranteed without the use of HP papers.
The inks work in concert with the papers to achieve the durability and quick drying time of output.


Of course, many people will experiment and try other ink/paper combinations.

One stat I did not get (and am trying to find) is the Dmax of the 12-ink HP system.

Chris_Brown
2-Dec-2006, 12:05
One stat I did not get (and am trying to find) is the Dmax of the 12-ink HP system.

I just found this info buried in the fine print here. (http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/pscmisc/vac/us/product_pdfs/3204970.pdf) It states a maximum optical density of "4 L* / 2.5 D with HP Premium Instant Dry Photo Gloss media."

This competes with the iPF5000 Dmax of 2.5 (on Innova FibaPrint paper). (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/canon-ipf5000.shtml)