Cost

[nash]

I am thinking about starting in Large Format. I thinking about cost not only start up for equipment but for possessing. First equipment: I would like to start with used equipment. I am undecided to which size to go with. I am wanting to go for the best in clarity. Is 11x14 better than 4x5 in clarity? Most of my prints would be around 11x14 or so. What would be about the cost difference in equipment of 4x5 and 11x14? Second processing: What would be the different in processing. I have no dark room or skills so I guess I would send it out. Talk about cost difference of processing between 4x5 and 11x14. The learning curve on burning film: I have the basic understanding of light. I have two years in digital. I do all or most of my settings in manual. I have the worry about making mistakes and having to try again and I feel that could get expensive for me. I like some advice on keeping the cost down for beginners while I learn the Large Format. I am reading in the how-to articles but it does not answer cost that well to me. I do mostly nature/outdoors photography. If you have any questions ask or e-mail me.
Thanks

[Ron Marshall]

If you are concerned about cost and only intend to print as large as 11x14 then 4x5 is probably your best option. You will likely not see any difference if you are only printing at 11x14. The cost of 11x14, for lenses, film, and cameras is much greater than for 4x5. It is much easier to learn on 4x5 and if you buy used, which you should, you can resell with little loss and always go to a larger format at a later date.

I would use black and white to begin, it is cheaper, and you should develop the film yourself.

Begin with one lens and get used to it before trying anything else.

Start with one traditional film, such as Ilford FP4, or HP5, they are easier to process properly. There are many excellent developers. Untill you are somewhat experienced there is not a great advantage of one over another. Pick one and stick with it. Learn how the film/developer combination reacts to different lighting and then optimise it. XTOL is cheap and good for both of those films.

Read the articles on the front page of this site, there is lots of info there.

KEH Camera Brokers and Midwest Photo exchange are both good places to guy used cameras and lenses.

http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/CategoryTableOfContents.aspx

http://www.mpex.com/InventoryList.aspx?DID=30&CID=401&FS=Large%20Format&SS=CAMERAS

[steve simmons]

I would suggest some reading

go to

www.viewcamera.com

and then to

Free Articles


Also, pickup one of these books

User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone

Using the View Camera that I wrote

or Large Format Nature Photography by Jack Dykinga.

There is a book called View Camera Technique that is not a good choice for a beginner.

steve simmons

[nash]

Thanks

[Capocheny]

Nash,

Cost wise... 4x5 is going to be far, far, far less expensive than any of the larger formats including 5x7, 8x10, or 11x14. From a learning "cost" standpoint... go with 4x5!

Secondly, if the maximum size of your enlargements is going to be 11x14... you won't need anything larger than 4x5. The images produced with your 4x5 will be absolutely fine when enlarged to 11x14.

Lastly, as Steve (and Ron) recommended.... do some research and learn before you pop down any money on a camera. Steve has suggested a great list of books there.

Good luck on the decision.

Cheers

[nash]

I am taking your advice every seriously. It sounds every logical when you know the field you are in. I would like to know about Polaroid film . Are there any cost advantages of polaroid over sending the film out or developing is your self.

Thanks

[Ron Marshall]

I am taking your advice every seriously. It sounds every logical when you know the field you are in. I would like to know about Polaroid film . Are there any cost advantages of polaroid over sending the film out or developing is your self.

Thanks

The main advantage of Polaroid is to check the focus, lighting and exposure for critical shots. It is more expensive than black and white, especially since a Polaroid film holder must be purchased (available used). It is somewhat benefical for learning because one has instant feedback. But one can also shoot a few sheets of film and then develop them in 30 minutes in a tray.

Eventually you should learn how to develop, in my view the sooner the better, then you have more control over the process. Developing b/w film is not difficult. I use Developer, water rinse, alkaline fix, water wash. That's it! The options are tray, tank or drum/cylinder. They each have their benefits. The chemicals are cheap.

[nash]

Thanks

[John Kasaian]

My own experience is that 11x14 is, for me, prohibitively expensive unless your willing to settle for only one or two film holders. If cost is an issue, go with a 4x5. You can pick up an old Omega 4x5 enlarger for less than the cost of one used 11x14 holder. You might even find an old 4x5 kit---camera, lens and some film holders for less than the cost of one used 11x14 film holder. OTOH, for contact prints and portraits, 11x14 is as alluring as a siren's song---just know in advance that it'll cost you plenty! Good luck!

[j.e.simmons]

As others have said, 11x14 is much, much more expensive than 4x5 - for instance, a complete 4x5 outfit - camera, lens, probably a few film holders and a case, can be found for less than $500. A working 11x14 camera alone - no lens, no film holders - would probably cost in the range of $1500.

If you go with 4x5, you'll need to get an enlarger. That is another expense, although not a great one. Or, you will need a scanner and printer to print digitally.

Another option might be to get an 8x10 and make contact prints. You can find used 8x10 cameras for not a lot more than 4x5s, and you can avoid the expense of the enlarger. Of course, you have to like 8x10 prints.

You have a lot to read. If there's a rental place near you, you might consider renting a larger format camera for a weekend to see if it's for you.
juan

[MIke Sherck]

And, finally, the middle-of-the-road compromise: if your interest is primarily black and white, consider 5x7. Nice contact prints (no enlarger needed,) not much more expensive than 4x5, and when you decide that you really want larger prints, 5x7 enlargers can be found for less than the cost of one 11x14 film holder. No 5x7 polaroid material in that size, though. If what you want to do is digital printing, 4x5 is easier to find scanners for than anything larger. It isn't my thing, but some people seem to like it ok...

A word about Polaroid materials... I have a love-hate relationship. Polaroid Type 55 produces both a B&W negative and a B&W print and it's just excellent quality but... $90 for 20 sheets? A professional might not mind (cost of doing business,) but for my personal work it's out of line. On the other hand, I believe that it does speed up the learning process (any polaroid film, not just Type 55.) Being able to instantly see the results (what you did right, what you did wrong,) so you can fix it immediately is very helpful, in my humble opinion. Whether it's cheaper than taking your film home (or to the lab) and processing it and seeing what happened and trying to remember what you did -- I suppose that depends on you. Good luck!

Mike

[John Kasaian]

What Mike says is worth considering, especially as you've indicated a preference for 11x14. To my eyes the perspective offered by a 5x7 is more like an 11x14 than a 4x5. 5x7 is a good size for contact prints. OTOH if big prints is what floats your boat, 5x7 enlargers are quite a bit more expensive than the garden variety 4x5 Omegas and you'll be using more chemistry and more expensive film----but still it would be way less costly than buying and feeding an 11x14 kit.

[j.e.simmons]

FYI, one of our forum members has a 4x5 for sale right now

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=20971

This is a good example of what is for sale rather inexpensively (although I have not seen this particular camera).
juan

[Donald Qualls]

I'll add my voice to suggest starting with 4x5. You can resell your equipment (possibly excepting an enlarger, which tend to be too large and heavy to be readily shipped and therefore hard to resell) later for about what you paid, if you find 4x5 isn't large enough and wish to move up to 8x10, 10x12, or 11x14.

There's no question that, for an 11x14 print, a contact print is going to have the greatest clarity -- but if you ever want smaller prints, you're in real trouble starting from an 11x14 negative, because although it's possible to use an enlarger to print smaller than the negative, there aren't many 11x14 enlargers around (and the only reasonably cost-effective way to do this would be with an enlarging head replacing the film back on your 11x14 camera).

A 4x5 negative printed to 16x20 (bigger than you say you'll want to go) is only enlarged four times in each dimension; that's like a 4x6 print from 35 mm, except that almost no one puts their nose right up to a 16x20 print. That means a 16x20 from 4x5 will look *better* (because, from further away, blur and grain are reduced relative to holding that 4x6 print close enough to see it well). As already suggested, 4x5 enlargers aren't terribly expensive; I got mine, with cold light head, high quality 135 mm lens, broad range of negative carriers, a bunch of extra lens boards and cones, and some loose accessories that turned up in the lot, for $250; I've long since made prints with it that would have cost more than that from a custom printer (Moon Photo in Seattle used to charge me $9 for an 8x10 straight RC print from a large format negative).

Moreover, 4x5 equipment can frequently be had for a song, if it's a good enough song. I paid $150 for my Speed Graphic (without lens, but with 100% functional and accurate-seeming focal plane shutter and light tight bellows); I regularly see older, possibly unidentified 4x5 flatbed and monorail cameras on eBay finish for under $100. Add a lens (potentially as low as $25 for a plate camera with good 135 mm or 150 mm lens, shutter needing only minor cleaning, and shot bellows) and some film holders (routinely about $8 each, used, on eBay, for modern plastic holders in good condition) and you could have a whole 4x5 setup for less than a cost of a single 11x14 film holder -- and get an enlarger for less than you'd pay for a single lens that will cover 11x14 (and still not having anything between the lens and film).

[nash]

Hey! Keep the words coming, I want the good, bad and ugly in the area I want to get into. That is nobody can beat my prints for clarity and dynamics. I understand that composition , etc may be a different story but in this thread I am talking about cost and clarity etc. If the majority opinion is to start at 4x5 B&W and learn and then work my way up then that looks like the way I will go. The settings of the standards and other settings are what I am unsure of and I am scared of throwing a lot of film down the drain in the possess of learning etc. I feel that you people have been though this so I hope that you people lead me around mistakes that you have made learning large format and possessing. But I feel so strong that small and medium format digital still can not beat large format film That I want to get into it. Large format backs are out of my price range and I am unsure that they are better than large format film. Please keep the words coming and sites that I can learn what you people have already learn.

nash

[John Bowen]

When it comes to polaroid keep an eye on Ebay. Someone is selling type 72 for $29 per box of 20 exposures. The film is just slightly out of date.

I have no interest in the auction.....I just love type 72 polaroid and like getting it for a great price. Polaroid is an excellent learning tool.

Have you considered a workshop? Bruce Barlow, Richard Ritter and Ted Harris host the Fine Focus Workshops in Southern VT and NH about 4-5 times a year. One of their topics is Getting the Most out of Large Format. They have equipment you could use and love using Polaroid to teach with. They are at www.FineFocusWorkshops.com I am an alumnus of their workshops and they do a great job, highly recommended.

[Ed Richards]

I second the workshop idea. 11x14 is a pretty small print. While it is heresy on this list, a full frame camera such as a Canon 5d makes a pretty good 11x14 print, unless you need movements. You have not talked about what you want to take picture of - it really changes the equation. If you are doing rocks in the desert on calm days or quiet forest glades with no wind, 11x14 is great. Add some wind, some subject movement, some problems with access, and 4x5 beats 11x14. Try to take pictures of wildlife or kids, and full frame digital beats LF.

[brook]

One thing noone has mentioned is the sheer physical difficulty of dealing with 11x14 and bigger. Everything is big, heavy, and cumbersome. Depth of field challanges enter a new league, and darkroom processes really get to be two fisted affairs.
A 5x7 w/ a 4x5 back would give you the best of a lot of worlds.

[nash]

Hey! Because I have no working knowledge of LF and am thinking about cost while I learn I have been convinced that 4x5 is the way to go and upgrade at a later time if LF is for me. Not only will I have to learn LF but also processing. Both these I do not have the most confidence in learning but I did not have much confidence in learning to ride my bicycle when I was five. I hope to come out better learning LF and processing without a scratch. Unlike the bicycle learning. My main interest is nature. But back in the swamps of South Carolina it can be worst than the bicycle days. Do most people agree that 4x5 B&W is going to cost less to learn on than 11x14 and then maybe upgrade to 11x14 when I get my skills? What throws my confidence off is have to adjust the standards. The tilt , swing etc in LF. That is the bicycle part to me. Will I have to learn all that before I can take my first shoot? I am going to be lucky in get thought the 20 steps the how to articles says. I am more afraid of these 20 steps than I was learning to fly an airplane. Can I go ahead and learn the 20 steps and take pictures before I start working with tilt, swing etc? My luck I will be putting the dark slide in to take the picture and pulling it back out to remove the film holder. I am should a lot of you went thought this also. But to have my friends ask me how did I get that picture so clear and sharp means something to me.

Thanks for your point of view

[nash]

Please explain a 5x7 w/ a 4x5 back would give you the best of a lot of worlds.

[Capocheny]

Please explain a 5x7 w/ a 4x5 back would give you the best of a lot of worlds.

Nash,

On some cameras, the backs can be switched between 5x7 and 4x5. Essentially, this gives you both formats on the same camera.

It's a great way to go if you want to play in both formats...

Cheers

[MIke Sherck]

I think that you're second-guessing yourself to death. Large format photography is neither difficult (from the managing the gear point of view,) nor expensive. Look at it this way: you want to try photographing from a new perspective. Fine. Good idea for any decent photographer to aspire to occasionally. Approach it from the same perspective as doing anything new: get the basics up front and learn from it before worrying about what comes next.

Did you get your dream vehical as your first car after getting your license? No, you got what you could get and figured that the Ferrari (or whatever) would come along later. Did you buy your dream guitar on the same day you signed up for your first lessons? No, you got something which fit your skills at the time. As you get better at what you do you also get better at knowing what you need to exercise those skills. Photographing with large format (or anything else, really,) is no different.

Maybe 11x14 is the perfect camera for you. Maybe it isn't. It doesn't sound as though you can afford the dream right now, which is fine since you don't know whether it is or not. Sometimes lack of experience can save us money. Get an inexpensive 4x5 camera, a lens or two, some film holders, some film, and give it a go. After a year or two you'll at least know what questions to ask and you'll be in a much better position to know whether 11x14 or something else is your future. The key point is to get out and go with it instead of trying to analyze it to death. Just do it! :)

Good luck, and remember: in this forum we may or may not answer your questions but we will definitely talk them to death!

Mike

[Ron Marshall]

Please explain a 5x7 w/ a 4x5 back would give you the best of a lot of worlds.

Bacause you would have 4x5 negs for enlarging (easier to find and cheaper enlargers in that size) and 5x7 for contact printing.

It is a nice option if available but not necessary. Besides, not all 4x5 lenses cover 5x7.

Get a good book from your local library on 4x5, find a reasonably priced 4x5 and one lens, and get used to the equipment.

[steve simmons]

The proportions for 5x7 and 11x14 are not the same. 5x7 is more rectangular. I am not saying better or worse, just different.

The idea of a 5x7 wih a 4x5 back might make some sense. I am a fan of 5x7. I like the proportions and it is big enough IMHO, to make wonderful contact prints.

steve simmons

[nash]

Hey! Mike I agree. I went to a some more difficult stuff in my past just like other people.

[Ted Harris]

I shoot a great deal of 5x7. My main camera is a 5x5 Canham T57 for which I also ahve a 4x5 back. Changing backs takes seconds and the extra back takes up minimal space in my bag. Just another 2 cents worth. BTW, Midwest also sells a 5x7 "holder" that permits the use of a Polaroid 545 holder directly in a 5x7 back without switching to a 4x5 back.

[Donald Qualls]

Do most people agree that 4x5 B&W is going to cost less to learn on than 11x14 and then maybe upgrade to 11x14 when I get my skills?

Absolutely, the 4x5 will cost less to buy, *far* less to use, and you can recover most or all of the cost of the 4x5 later if you a) don't like large format after, or b) don't feel you need 4x5 any longer after moving up to a larger format.


What throws my confidence off is have to adjust the standards. The tilt , swing etc in LF. That is the bicycle part to me. Will I have to learn all that before I can take my first shoot? I am going to be lucky in get thought the 20 steps the how to articles says. I am more afraid of these 20 steps than I was learning to fly an airplane. Can I go ahead and learn the 20 steps and take pictures before I start working with tilt, swing etc? My luck I will be putting the dark slide in to take the picture and pulling it back out to remove the film holder. I am should a lot of you went thought this also. But to have my friends ask me how did I get that picture so clear and sharp means something to me.

No matter how badly you screw up in large format, you won't be going anywhere most of us haven't been before. I've got an unusually good record, and I still screw up about 1 negative in four by one means or another, not even counting the learning curve of tray processing. I'd suggest that you'll probably save the cost of your 4x5 outfit (compared to making the same mistakes in 11x14), just in *film*, by the time you're confident enough to hike away from your car to make an image and take just one double sided film holder (which is likely to be the case most of the time in 11x14, due to cost and weight).

Even better, nothing you can screw up in large format can possibly cost as much as a big mistake in an airplane (and is extremely unlikely to kill you -- backing off a cliff trying to reset your tripod is one of the few reliable ways to die in large format, though in a South Carolina swamp there's always tangling with a cottonmouth...). Leave the gear up while landing, and *at best* you'll be out the cost of two or three complete 11x14 rigs including film holders and tripod (though you're a bit more likely to be insured against the loss with the airplane). Drop a complete 4x5 off a cliff or into a slough, and you can start over for what you paid originally (maybe less, since you'll know a little more about what you want and don't want).

[John Voss]

I thinking about cost not only start up for equipment but for possessing...... . The learning curve on burning film......: I have the worry about making mistakes and having to try again and I feel that could get expensive for me.

Do not worry about making mistakes...they're unequivocally guaranteed!! The least expensive variable in the entire chain is film. You absolutely will/must burn a lot of it in order to learn anything at all. If you insist on cheap, stick with your digicam and fire of a terebyte of images. If you want to learn and appreciate the nuances and subtleties of LF, miss a couple of meals, buy lots of film, and 'burn' it with the understanding that it is the essential dues you must pay. As reiterated so often above, 4x5 is the least financially painful and most readily available format to begin.

[Donald Qualls]

Do not worry about making mistakes...they're unequivocally guaranteed!!

Or, to put that another way:

"Failure is not an option -- it's standard equipment."

If you can't stand to fail most of the time, you'd better get into some serious warranty discussions with your maker...