Recommendations for a cheap monorail for wide angles?

[Ed Richards]

There is an ocean of cheap monorail cameras on the used market but it is hard to get info about them. I am looking for one that will let me use a 47/58 (flange distance = 70mm) on a flat board. I have large fingers and old eyes, and life is too short to use dental mirrors to set lenses. I would like more precision and rigidity than the Shen-Hao, and am willing to deal with the weight. Cheap would be really nice, but is not essential. I am not looking at the Fotoman yet because I would like something to use my 90 on as well, and it really needs a lot of movement.

[erie patsellis]

Ed,
with the price of Sinars these days, I'd consider a sinar F with a bag bellows.

erie

[Ed Richards]

Erie,

Do you know the minimum bellows extension for the Sinar F with the bag bellows? BH lists it as 60mm for the F2, but I cannot find any info for the F1.

[Ron Marshall]

Erie,

Do you know the minimum bellows extension for the Sinar F with the bag bellows? BH lists it as 60mm for the F2, but I cannot find any info for the F1.

From the Sinar Bron site (link below) the minimum extension of the F2 is 1.5 inches or 38mm. From another site, the F1 is also 38mm.

From this site http://www.pandemonia.com/pandemonia/reviews/sinar-a1.html

The A1 is the SInar F1 in all but name, rail, and rail attachments. Minimum extension is a function of lens rear element size when using the wide angle bellows.

http://www.sinarbron.com/sinar/conventional/f2.php

[Ed Richards]

Ron,

From what I can tell, the 38mm is with a really deep recessed lens board. But 60mm is fine for anything I want to do, and it sounds like the A1/F1/F2 have about the same specs - that is very helpful.

[Ole Tjugen]

One of the best cameras I have found for really, really wide lenses is an old German rear-focussing "Reisekamera". Even my 24x30cm camera can focus a 45mm lens at infinity on a flat board. With plate reduction inserts it can shoot any size film from 6.5x9cm to the full 24x30cm. Movements on the lens board are +/- 6cm rise and +/- 6cm shift. Rear has 10 degrees swing and tilt.

For modern 4x5" cameras, I believe the Carrbon Infinity may still be unmatched - 30mm to 550mm on flat boards.

[Photomax]

There seems to be a buyers market for the Sinar F1 or F2 these days. They are nice cameras. Full movements and they get you into the full Sinar line. There is a lot of used Sinar accessories out there these days. Maker sure to get the bag bellows. The Sinar kit is a HUGE system. Get the catalog and laugh at all the insane prices for buying all this stuff new - and then go find what you need used at a fraction of the new price.

I have the Sinar F1, high end Sinar travel case, 210, 90, 65 lenses, bag bellows, extension rails, reflex binocular viewer, fresnal screan etc.

The P2 is a better camera but you pay for it. Some guys will buy the F1 and then look for the rear standard from a F2 camera. Its a slight upgrade.

I am pretty happy with my choice. The F1 is not a field camera. I went hiking with it once: never again. Its a great all round monorail camera suitable for studio, location, architecture and field work if you can drive the car up to the tripod setting. Its a deep system, maybe the deepest and there is a lot of it out there used nowadays.

Cheers,

Max

[Ed Richards]

Max,

Is the hiking problem that it is bulky and heavy, or are you worried about crud getting into the mechanism in the field? I am not much of a hiker, but I do work in the field, usually carrying the camera on the tripod over my shoulder.

[Photomax]

It was more about the size and the lack of creating a good softer travel bag than anything else. I have moved into a different direction for doing personal field photography: using a 6x17 panoramic camera with a 90mm/6.8 Grandagon lens. The camera film, viewer, light meter and a bunch of more convenient 120 film all fits into a small shoulder bag. I like the shape of this format and I think I will use it more than the 4x5.

Max

[CXC]

I use my Gowland with a bag bellows, together they cost something less than $500 on the 'Bay.

I believe that just about any monorail plus a bag bellows should do the trick for you, so that you can base your choice upon other matters like cost, availability, features, etc. A Gowland is a good choice in terms of super light and compact ease of travel, while the various Sinars are good choices for ease of use and precision. Others may chime in with options that fall somewhere in between?

[Robert Ley]

Ed, I have a Calumet monorail wide angle 4x5 view camera. It will take a 47mm on a flat board, has only about 7"-8" of bellows, so could be used with a 135 or 150 lens as well. I picked it up on the bay for the lens that came with it(a really sweet, late model, Schneider 120mm Angulon) I am thinking of putting it up on Ebay as I really have no use for it. Kirk Gittings refered to this model as his prefered camera for wide angle work in architecture in a recent thread.

[robc]

this fits the bill and more:

http://www.walkercameras.com/titan-xl-wide-4x5-thumbs.html

click on the thumbnails ans also read the reviews.

A bag bellows may be required for full movement with very short lenses but do you really need 70mm of rise?

and they are light and not expensive.

[Ed Richards]

Robc - I guess expensive is relative, but it runs more than $2k with the bag bellows. Were you by any chance forgetting that the price is in pounds?

[robc]

lol

I didn't say it was cheap and you did say cheap wasn't essential and it seems to be what you are looking for.

And it may be that for a 47m lens you don't need the bag bellows. Email and ask how much movement you get with that lens.

Oh and yes and the exchange rate is not so good for those stateside at the moment.

someone was offering the 5x7 version of this recently At this site.

[Ole Tjugen]

A cheaper alternative to the walker is the Argentum xl...

[Ron Marshall]

Max,

Is the hiking problem that it is bulky and heavy, or are you worried about crud getting into the mechanism in the field? I am not much of a hiker, but I do work in the field, usually carrying the camera on the tripod over my shoulder.

Ed, I also have an F1, and have done a couple of day-long hikes with it. With a good pack it is not a problem for someone in fairly good physical condition. There are three options to pack the camera. Put both standards on a six inch rail. Detach the bellows and fold both standards inwards. Completely remove the standards from the rail. I used the first option. The key is a good backpack.

That said, I soon went out to buy a 3lb Toho monorail (see Kerry Thalmann's review on this site) which is a wonderful camera. I don't miss the Sinar at all. In fact now it is a 5x7, with the addition of a Norma rear standard and bellows.

[Ed Richards]

One great advantage of the walker is that it is water and humidity proof, which would be useful down here, except that I do not have any water proof shutters.:-)

The weight, within reason is not a problem, and I find I am doing a lot of architecture, even if not in the conventional sense - a lot of the building and forts are in ruins. The sinar or the like would be a lot easier to use to really get the angles and movements correct.

[robc]

when you get down to a 47mm lens your biggest problem will be accurate focussing. Do the maths and work out what your depth of focus will be and then work out how difficult it will be to handle that with tilts. Then think about which camera will make focusing easier given the minimal depth of focus and focus error you have to work within. Then you may just think that a fixed and rigid back is worth the money.

[Ed Richards]

ROBC,

I have no illusions about using much tilt with a 58. That is almost point and shoot. Where it is an issue is with my 90mm, which is pretty hard to use effectively on my old Technika. If I only wanted to use the ultrawide, I would get the Linhof wide angle kludge, or, better, a Fotoman. I may go the Fotoman route yet, once I get my copy of the current issue of View Camera and read the review.:-)

[Ernest Purdum]

"Cheap", of course, has different meanings to different people, but with my limited budget the only monorail that deseerves the adjective is the Calumet that Robert Ley suggested. I assume he was speaking of the original Calumet wide angle, a derivative of the CC-400 series designated CC-402. Calumet modified the original (Kodak) design by providing a short (12" 305mm) rail, a special short bellows with large pleats and a front plate set back from the uprights so as to avoid the need for a recessed lensboard. They have full movements; lensboards and some spare parts are still available from Calumet, and although now old, many remain in good condition. The only fragile items seem to be the knobs. If not available from Calumet, they can be replaced with a very nice lever which adjusts to any desired position. These are available from the Carr-McMaster company. I think their website is www.mcmaster.com. These cameras can use quite a wide range of focal length lenses. They show up on eBay occasionally, it might take a bit of patience to find one.

[Frank Petronio]

Another vote for the readily available $350 Sinar F with a bag bellows. At first I was set on getting a F2 but in real life the F1 or earlier F is just fine (and you can always use a third standard for the shade if you do pick up another F2 or P rear standard.)

I have seen and tried to pack my old Norma and now the F for minimal packing -- and it can be done -- but the truth is that I am an out of the car shooter.

[AnselAdamsX]

I would add a 4th option. Hang the monorail in the opening of a top loading back pack. I transport a Cambo SC with an 18 inch monorail this way. I haven't done a day long hike yet but it feels pretty stable.

Ed, I also have an F1, and have done a couple of day-long hikes with it. With a good pack it is not a problem for someone in fairly good physical condition. There are three options to pack the camera. Put both standards on a six inch rail. Detach the bellows and fold both standards inwards. Completely remove the standards from the rail. I used the first option. The key is a good backpack.

That said, I soon went out to buy a 3lb Toho monorail (see Kerry Thalmann's review on this site) which is a wonderful camera. I don't miss the Sinar at all. In fact now it is a 5x7, with the addition of a Norma rear standard and bellows.

[Henry Ambrose]

Ed, I'd think seriously about buying an Ebony SW45 or 45S camera. They are way smaller and lighter than any monorail and I think from looking at your pictures that they'd do anything you want in the very most convenient way. The SW45 with 190mm of draw will focus a 180 to about 10 -12 feet and a 150 to about 3 feet. This camera will use a 47 on a flat board. I am thrilled with mine. If you need longer lenses then go for the 45S. A little less direct rise but more movements overall and 270 of bellows.

These two Ebony non-folding cameras are not cheap but they are worth what they cost in terms of ease of use, fast set up and plenty of precision. I came from an Arca Swiss and find the SW45 to be better in every respect for architecture where I never use longer than a 180 and seldom use that. The Ebony SW45 is a joy to use with wide angle to normal lenses - thats what its made for. I'd go for the 45S if I needed longer lenses.

Sell you old stuff and get one of these. Jim at Midwest can set you up.

[Kirk Fry]

Check out the old CC402 (I think) calument with bag bellows. It was special wide angle camera. They flipped the standards around so things could get closer. Don't know if it will do a 47mm. If you can find one they will be cheap.