What is the easiest and most efficient way to process 4x5 film? [Archive]

View Full Version : What is the easiest and most efficient way to process 4x5 film?

brian steinberger

7-Aug-2006, 07:35

I'm currently using tanks and hangers to process 6 4x5 sheets at one time. This is great and I like it, except two problems. One, the tanks take a half gallon of chemistry and two, I can't seem to get even development. I'm getting some bromide streaking. Is there a way to elimanate the streaking when using tanks and hangers? I've heard of using a pre soak, but I use ilford film and they don't recomend a pre soak.

I've been looking at the Jobo film expert. They look nice but are $$. I also looked at the BTZ tubes, which look interesting but I don't think I would like them. What about tray processing? I'm looking for recommendations. I would really like to keep processing in the tanks and hangers if at all possible. But if not, I'm certainly willing to try a new method. Thanks!

Nick_3536

7-Aug-2006, 08:04

The other Jobo system the 2500 tanks are more reasonable. Even more reasonable used. But even brand new I think you could get a 2551 tank and two 2509N reels for about $100 US. That setup would handle 12 sheets of 4x5. Add a uniroller motorbase and a timer you'll have a system that uses relatively little chemicals. At least 600ml will do the 12 sheets.

OTOH trays are even cheaper.

bob carnie

7-Aug-2006, 08:18

Jobo has announced that they are no longer making the alt series and if I am not mistaken their entire line of jobo roller processors.
This provides a huge problem for me as I have invested in two Alt 2300 and all the reels and tanks.
If they are going to stop making new machines the support for parts will soon dry up no matter what assurances they give right now.
Omega Sattar is representing Jobo, we tried to order a lift arm * $1000 approx* about 8 weeks ago, they will not answer our request.
A lift arm has approximately 36,000 lifts and will go bad without warning.

We now think that we will have to design a rotary system that uses parts of the Jobo system *remember we invested all those dollars on tanks and reels* but try to incorporate the best of Jobo and other systems to make a semi automatic system, bypassing the auto lift and auto chemical feed systems.*those two features are what go first and are the most expensive to replace.*

If anyone here has modified a rotary system using off the shelf components that will be a reliable source of parts I would be a very happy camper to hear from you.

Jobo rotary is a wonderful processing device and it really is to bad they have made this unfortunate and shortsighted decision to stop making machines for processing.

Nick_3536

7-Aug-2006, 08:53

Bob for B&W you can just put the tanks on something like a uniroller base. While also no longer made fairly common and should be fairly simple to copy. It's basically just a motor that switches direction. The setup will manage the 2551 and bigger tanks up to and including the 2581 tank. I think others have used them for expert tanks to.

For colour you need to add an external tempering bath. Luckily the tanks are so well insulated that they hold temperture well. But do a simple test. Preheat the tank. Doesn't need to be anything more then pouring in some water at the process temperture. Pour it out and add some new water. Close the lid and wait 10 minutes. Check the temp. Even without the tank sitting in a water bath I think you'll find very little if any drop in test waters temperture.

Ron Marshall

7-Aug-2006, 08:59

The Jobo expert drums. Reasonable price used, easy to load, low chemical volume, consistent even development, easy to hand roll on $20 Jobo roller base.

Eric Biggerstaff

7-Aug-2006, 09:11

I use a Jobo 3010 on a Beseler motor base and it works very well. Don't discount the BZTS tubes however as they work very well also, are well priced and give you the ability to process one sheet if needed. I used them for many years and they were great, in fact I wish I still had them as I find I often have less than 10 sheets to develop.

Ken Lee

7-Aug-2006, 09:12

Try an infra red viewing device and a set of correctly-sized "trays".

Actually, I don't use trays, but inexpensive plastic clothing storage containers, available at discount stores. They are around 5 inches wide, 10 inches long, and 6 inches high. Perhaps these were intended to be used to store socks, I don't know.

They occupy very little space, and fill upwards more than outwards - so they are deep rather than wide. The film can't slip away to another part of the container, and there is less exposure to the air.

Being able to see what you are doing, in total darkness, all along the process, is a blessing. This cannot be overstated.

Brian Ellis

7-Aug-2006, 09:13

I'll assume you're talking about b&w film.

I've used trays, I hated them - standing in the dark for 15 minutes while inhaling chemical fumes and jiggling trays isn't my idea of fun. I use the BTZS tubes. Since you don't say why you don't think you'd like them I can't help you there, I can just say that I've used them for about 12 years and they have a lot of advantages. They use minimal chemistry (2 ounces per sheet of 4x5, since I use D76 1-1 that means I process six sheets of film with 6 ounces of chemicals), once the film is in them everything is done in daylight, you can develop different sheets for different times in the same run, they take up little space, they don't have to be used in a dedicated darkroom, and development is very even. All in all an excellent way IMHO to process b&w film.

Patrik Roseen

7-Aug-2006, 09:26

I am using a combi-plan tank to develop 6 sheets (b&w) at a time...To avoid both streaking and chemistry consumption I develop my sheets (efkePL100 and TMAX100) in either AcuLux2 or FX-39 diluted as 1:19. This means I only need 60ml of developer for a total of 1200ml to go into the tank. The development takes a bit longer (TMX 17min, 20C) but it's done in daylight so it's possible to do other things at the same time.

Ted Harris

7-Aug-2006, 09:31

A combiplan daylight tank is probably the best solution in terms of ese of use and cost. If you do want to go the rotary processing route, Jobo is not the only game on the block; there is also Phototherm and Wing-Lynch. All three of the mentioned Rotary processing systems are easonably available on the used market at decent prices. I am a bit more optimistic than Bob about the continued availablity of parts from Jobo (I have to be as I also have a huge investment in an ATL processor and expert drums).

brian steinberger

7-Aug-2006, 10:03

I didn't think I would like the BTZ tubes because of the fact that the back of the film touches the plastic and doesn't recieve development. How do you clear that backing off? Also, for fear that I would scratch the film. I'm liking the Jobo single reel tank that holds 6 sheets at a time. Can I invert agitate that tank? Or is it meant to roll? And if it rolls, do you have to roll it continously throughout development?

So it there no hope for me to continue using hangers and tanks? It dosn't sound like a very popular method anymore.

Jim Jones

7-Aug-2006, 10:14

I'll assume you're talking about b&w film.

I've used trays, I hated them - standing in the dark for 15 minutes while inhaling chemical fumes and jiggling trays isn't my idea of fun. . . .

I sit rather than stand, since my butt is much larger than my feet. I sometimes use developer that cuts developing time down to a few minutes. A well designed ventilation system is an asset, and sometimes a necessity for safety reasons. Some people have built mechanical tray jigglers.

cyrus

7-Aug-2006, 10:51

I've been trying out various options for bw 4x5 development:
Daylight tanks - uneven development.
Hangers and tanks - surge marks
hand-developing in trays: too much risk of scratches

Solution: slosher-type development trays.

I can do 6 sheets at a time right now with a slosher that I bought online, but I plan on making my own sloshers out of several old 8x11 trays. Just stack them up and go with 4 negs to a tray. Load, dip, lift, repeat. Results in totally even development, no scratches, and "factory line" efficiency - just move the slosher trays along from pre-soak dip all the way to final wash. Loading them up is a breeze too compared the other techniques - just place the neg in its own little area in each tray. No futzing around in the dark and putting fingerprints all over the negs. Really, its the perfect solution.

David A. Goldfarb

7-Aug-2006, 11:23

If you're getting surge marks or bromide drag with tanks and hangers, it's probably an agitation issue. I lift the hangers all the way out of the tank, tilt 45-degrees, then return the hangers to the tank a bit of a lifting and dunking motion to release any bubbles. For the next cycle tilt 45-degrees in the opposite direction.

It's a great method, if you have a lot of film to process, or if the developer you like is replenishable.

Depending on how much film I have to process and what developer I'm using and format, I also use trays and the Nikor daylight tank. They all work.

Brian Ellis

7-Aug-2006, 17:07

I didn't think I would like the BTZ tubes because of the fact that the back of the film touches the plastic and doesn't recieve development. How do you clear that backing off? Also, for fear that I would scratch the film.

You don't develop the back of the film, only the emulsion. With tubes the back clears in the fixer (you remove the film from the tubes after the stop and fix in a tray, in daylight, at least that's how I do it. Scratching isn't a problem, I don't offhand recall ever scratching a sheet in the tubes except a couple times when I got overly energetic in removing film from the tubes after the stop.

I don't mean to be trying to sell you on tubes as the "best" method, there are several good methods of processing film as others have pointed out. I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions about the tubes that you might have. If you understand how they work and still prefer some other method that's certainly fine.

KenM

7-Aug-2006, 17:26

One thing you might want to try is to *increase* agitation. I had a terrible time with surge marks and even areas of increased density around where the wire clip snaps over the film (I use Carr hangers). The solution was to increase agitation, to truly get a 'random' movement of liquid in the tank. Once I did that, all my problems went away.

BTW, I agitate for 10 seconds every minute, which is (for me) about six iterations of lift-tilt-drop. I tilt in opposite directions on each iteration. At the end of the cycle, I drop the film into the tank, lift it about 1/2", and drop it again - this is to dislodge any air bubbles that might be hanging on. BTW, when I say 'drop', I don't really drop the hangers back into the tank. I lower them vigorously :D

I had the same issue with 120 developed on reels - again, all my problems went away when I increased agaitation.

brian steinberger

7-Aug-2006, 17:28

Bill_1856

7-Aug-2006, 17:29

Personally, I think the best, easiest, and most efficient way to process B&W sheet film is old fashioned tray development. But if you've got to have a non-touchy method, you might consider a Cradle.

http://www.summitek.com/cradle.html

brian steinberger

7-Aug-2006, 17:42

Bill,

I have seen that cradle. Have you used one?

Brian

Bill_1856

7-Aug-2006, 19:09

Bill,

I have seen that cradle. Have you used one?

Brian

No, I'm an open tray dunk and leafer (emulsion up). But it seemed like a good idea if I decided to develop in PYRO (allergic to latex gloves).

cyrus

7-Aug-2006, 22:45

Cradle = slosher that I use. Works fine.

Brian Ellis

8-Aug-2006, 19:51

Brian,

Actually, I've been looking at the tubes now, considering I do zone system work, the idea of being able to process one sheet at a time, or do N-1, N, and N+ in the same run is nice. And also doing different sheets in different developers even!

I think it's great. How hard is agitation? And the back clears completely in the fixer?

Brian

I process six sheets at a time since that's the number of tubes that will fit in the tempering tray you can buy from The View Camera Store with the tubes. The tray is filled with water at about my developer temperature (I use 75 degrees). I place all the tubes in the tray at once and start the timer. I roll the tubes all together by dragging my hand over them from left to right ten times, then from right to left ten times, for the duration of development (no special reason for selecting ten times, I just like to be consistent in how many times I roll them in each direction and ten was an easy number to remember). Instead of doing it that way, some people rapidly spin two tubes at a time by "tweaking" them with their thumb and a finger, periodically switching the tubes around to change the direction of the spin. I don't think it makes much difference exactly how you do it just so you keep them moving and change directions periodically.

Assuming different times for different sheets, as the time is up for one sheet I remove the tube from the tray, quickly remove the top from the tube, and drop the tube in a pan of stop, then go back to turning the remaining tubes. This is done in daylight, as long as you get the tube in the stop fairly quickly the light doesn't affect anything. When they're all in the stop I remove the film from each tube and put it in a tray of fix (actually I use six 5x7 trays of fix so that I can keep track of which sheet is which for record keeping purposes but you don't have to do that). I don't worry about how long the film stays in the stop. The time in the stop (within reason) isn't critical so it doesn't matter if there's a five or six minute difference between the time the first tube hits the stop and the time the last tube hits it as you might have if say one tube is done at N - 1 and another at N +2. The ability to develop for different times in the same run is a big advantage compared to Jobo for someone like me who usually doesn't process more than a handful of sheets in a session.

The back clears completely in the fix exept T Max can be a little stubborn sometimes. On the rare occasions when it doesn't completely clear in the fix it clears in the hypo clearing agent and/or in the wash.

I hope this helps. If you end up getting the tubes let me know and I'll explain an easy way to remove the film from the tubes when going from stop to fix, some people seem to have trouble with that.

Michael Kadillak

9-Aug-2006, 19:43

I agree with Ken about the Infrared goggles and tray development. When you can see what you are doing with tray processing AND pull sheets out of the developer at specific optimal times (with a bit of practice) it is both efficient and very cost effective. Uses small amounts of chemistry and when you get in the groove you can do quite a number of sheets without scratching and the negatives are always evenly developed.

It has been so productive for me that I have not used my Jobo CPP2 in over a year. Don't get me wrong, the JOBO is a marvelous tool. I just get more negatives developed in a shorter time frame when I use trays because the whole drum gets exactly the same time and sometimes I do not fill it.

I read that Ron Rosenstock still tray developments all of his B&W negatives.

Good Luck!

Kirk Gittings

9-Aug-2006, 20:09

Brian, if by chance you are scanning your film, stay away from tray developing. I did it for many years and was quite good at it. Later I tried BTZS tubes and liked them and stayed with them.

When I started scanning I found that the scan really picks up small scratches. My earlier tray developed negatives are full of very fine scratches that are not present in the tube developed films. I know from an earlier thread that Sandy King has noticed a similar phenomena.

Shen45

9-Aug-2006, 21:59

Charles Webb

9-Aug-2006, 23:14

I have been using hangers and tanks for over fifty years, and have yet to have any of the problems mentioned. Agitation is the key factor, too vigerous equals surge marks.
I haven't yet learned how to to acquire the other problems mentioned.

The night vision device works just fine, but we were developing by inspection using a green safelight way back when I first began making negatives. The night vision goggle is an extremely unnecessary item. With practice, ( which is something many of todays fine art photographers avoid like a rattlesnake) DBI is very simple and easy to do. As far as using the night vision device for normal dark room work like loading holders or watching the film during developement, I think it is a joke, and totally unnecessary!

Dipping and dunking doe's not give one the bragging rights or prestiege that comes with using a Jobo or other popular processor. ;-)

Just my opinion, base on many years of experience in professional photography.
C Webb