Reading Van Gogh

[Hugo Zhang]

Among my current readings, Van Gogh's letters to his brother Theo move my heart most. To be a true artist, you have to be a sincere and true man first.

"In short, I want to progress so far that people will say of my work, He feels deeply, he feels tenderly--notwithstanding my so-called roughness, perhaps even because of it.
It seems pretentious to talk like this way now, but this is the reason why I want to push on with all my strength.
What am I in most people's eyes? A nonentity, or an eccentric and disagreeable man--somebody who has no position in society and never will have, in short, the lowest of the low. Very well, even if this were true, then I should want my work to show what is in the heart of such an eccentric, of such a nobody.
This is my ambition, which is, in spite of everything, founded less on anger than on love, more on serenity than on passion. It is true that I am often in the greatest misery, but still there is calm pure harmony and music inside me. I see drawings and pictures in the poorest huts, in the dirtiest corner. And my mind is drawn toward these things by an irresistible force.
More and more other things lose their interest, and the more I get rid of them, the quicker my eyes grasps the picturesque things. Art demands persistent work, work in spite of everything, and continuous observation. By persistent, I mean not only continuous work, but also giving up your opinion at the bidding of such and such a person."

"Of the drawings which I shall show you now, I think only this: I hope they will prove to you that my work does not remain stationary, but progresses in a reasonable direction. As to the money value of my work, I do not pretend to anything less than that it would greatly astonish me if in time my work did not become just as salable as that of others. Of course I cannot tell whether that will happen now or later, but I think the surest way, which cannot fail, is to work from nature faithfully and energetically. Sooner or later feeling and love for nature meet a response from people who are interested in art. It is the painter's duty to be entirely absorbed by nature and to use all his intelligence to express sentiment in his work so that it becomes intelligible to other people. In my opinion working for the market is not exactly the right way; on the contrary, it means fooling art lovers. The true painters have not done this; the sympathy they eventually received was the result of their sincerity. That's all I know about it, and I don't think I need to know more. Of course it is a different thing to try to find people who like your work, and who will love it--of course this is permitted. But it must not become speculation; it would perhaps turn out wrong and would certainly cause one to lose time that ought to be spent on the work itself."

This Van Gogh, who would spend the little money his brother sent him every month on his painting materials first and sometimes had nothing left for food for days, painted ferverishly for the next eight years and died penniless and relatively unknown.

[Bill_1856]

[QUOTE=Hugo Zhang]To be a true artist, you have to be a sincere and true man first.

QUOTE]

I totally disagree. Many of the greatest artists* were real jerks, (think of Picasso to start with). In fact, Vincent was a terrible PITA, not all of which could be blamed on his "artist's temprement" or his bi-polar disease.

*artists include more of the arts than just painting. Paul Strand and Steichen come to mind first for photography.

[Donald Qualls]

This Van Gogh, who would spend the little money his brother sent him every month on his painting materials first and sometimes had nothing left for food for days, painted ferverishly for the next eight years and died penniless and relatively unknown.

Of course, it probably didn't help that he sometimes drank his turpentine...

[Hugo Zhang]

Bill,

Why do you find Vincent a terrible PITA? Have you read his letters? I was much moved by his paintings a few years ago when I first saw the originals. I never really like Picasso though, even I admire his talent.

A jerk could be a true man as long as he has the courage to be true to himself.

Hugo

[Saulius]

Hugo, if you haven't seen it yet you will certainly appreciate "Vincent - the Life and Death of Vincent van Gogh". Do a google search and you can find somehwere to buy a copy. I've never read his letters but this film certainly brought them to life for me. It is one of the few movies I watch over and over. In fact I haven't seen it in a while so I think I'll have to remedy that. I personally enjoy his paintings, but not until I was fortunate enough to see a great body of his work at the Van Gogh museum in Amsterdam, it just blew me away.


The best film about Vincent Van Gogh is not one of the many biopics of the painter, but this stirring, ardent documentary. Forgoing a conventional biography's and-then-he-cut-his-ear-off approach, the gifted Dutch-Australian director Paul Cox opts for pure evocation: he trails his camera through the places where Van Gogh walked, as though trying to dream his way into the artist's mindset. Meanwhile, the beautiful voice of John Hurt reads from Vincent's amazingly searching letters to his brother, Theo. (Hurt's voice probably deserved an Oscar for this vocal-cord performance alone.) Van Gogh's journey as struggling artist and tormented man of soul is thus made strangely direct--it will not only send you to see Vincent's paintings but to locate a copy of his collected letters as well. Many film directors have grappled with this subject: Vincente Minnelli with Lust for Life, Robert Altman with Vincent & Theo, Maurice Pialat with Van Gogh. But the perpetually underappreciated Cox (Innocence) has trumped them with simplicity and sheer intensity of feeling. --Robert Horton


The most profound exploration of an artist's soul ever to be put on film (Village Voice), VINCENT: THE LIFE AND DEATH OF VINCENT VAN GOGH is a captivating study of a brilliant artist. One of the Top 10 documentaries the year it was released, Paul Cox's portrait of Vincent Van Gogh is a journey through the life of a tortured genius who became one of the greatest artists of all time. The story is told through letters written to his brother Theo from 1872 until 1890, eloquently read by actor John Hurt.

[Hugo Zhang]

Saulius,

Thank you for the tip and I have just ordered the DVD from Amazon. I am reading his letters of 2,000 pages right now and can't tell you how much impressed I am by Van Gogh first as a man and how much I have learned.

"Forget oneself; achieve great things, reach nobility and go beyond the vulgarity in which the existence of most individuals stagnates."
"If one continues loving sincerely what is truly worthy of love and does not waste one's love on insignificant things and meaningless things and colorless things, gradually one will get more light and become stronger"
"If one perfects oneself in a single thing and understands it fully, one achieves in addition understanding and knowledge of many other things."

Hugo

[paulr]

You wanna make Van Goghs
Raise 'em up like sheep
Make 'em out of Eskimos
And women if you please
Make 'em nice and normal
Make 'em nice and neat
You see him with his shotgun there?
Bloodied in the wheat?
Oh what do you know about
Living in Turbulent Indigo?

Brash fields, crude crows
In a scary sky ...
In a golden frame
Roped off
Tourists guided by ...
Tourists talking about the madhouse
Talking about the ear
The madman hangs in fancy homes
They wouldn't let him near!
He'd piss in their fireplace!
He'd drag them through Turbulent Indigo

I'm a burning hearth, he said
People see the smoke
But no one comes to warm themselves
Sloughing off a coat
And all my little landscapes
All my yellow afternoons
Stack up around this vacancy
Like dirty cups and spoons
No mercy Sweet Jesus!
No mercy from Turbulent Indigo.

--Joni Mitchell

[Kendrick Pereira]

Bill &al: what is a PITA, please?

Hugo: What do you mean, "A jerk could be a true man as long as he has the courage to be true to himself."? A jerk is a jerk.

Saulius: Thanks for the tip about the movie. I shall follow it up, as much because it is a Paul Cox movie as because it is about V. Van Gogh.

[Leigh Perry]

I've mostly avoided 90's Joni Mitchell, particularly after the 80's Joni Mitchell. (The 70's Joni would have been an impossible precedent to follow.) But those lyrics are a great reminder of just how incisive she is.

[Bill_1856]

Kendrick -- PITA is "Pain In The Arss."
Hugo -- Vincent Van Gogh is my favorite painter.
Saulius -- I'll check my local library for the Vincent DVD. Also, "Sunflowers," David Douglas Duncan's homage to Van Gogh, is a must-read for photographers.

[Hugo Zhang]

Kendrick,

"A jerk could be a true man as long as he has the courage to be true to himself."? A jerk is a jerk.

Jerk. (slang) a stupid or insignificant person.--Peerage Reference Dictionary

It's interesting to see how people put stickers on things or people they don't know. Van Gogh was a jerk in the eyes of people who saw him dressed in shabby clothes and painted a horse's ass in the street. He is a true man in my eyes when I read his letters and gaze at his paintings. Van Gogh is still the same Van Gogh, a jerk and and a true man in different eyes. Of course people can put many other stickers on him too.

From Letter 230

"I brought home many sketches that time, it was extraordinarily intriguing--but it may serve as an example of The Hague public's politeness toward painters that suddenly a fellow from behind me, or probably from a window, spat his quid of tobacco onto my paper. Well, one has trouble enough sometimes. But one need not to take it so very seriously; those people are not bad, they do not understand anything about it, and probably think I am a lunatic when they see me making a drawing with large hooks and crooks which don't mean anything to them.
Recently I have also been very busy drawing horses in the street. I would love to have a horse for a model sometime. Yesterday, for instance, I heard someone behind me say, That's a queer sort of painter--he draws the horse's ass instead of drawing it from the front. I rather liked that comment.
I love to make those sketches in the street, and as I wrote you in my last letter, I certainly want to reach a sort of perfection in it."

[Bill_1856]

Jerk. (slang) a stupid or insignificant person.--Peerage Reference Dictionary



I have found myself so often referring to people as "assholes," (particularly in traffic), that I was fearful that it would become an unfortunate habit in my ordinary speech pattern. Thus, I made the conscious effort to substitute the euphemism "jerk" for the more explicit term. Van Gogh was more than just a social misfit due to his mental disease, he was a jerk.

[chris jordan]

Bill, just remember that whenever you point your finger at others, labeling them assholes, jerks or whatever is your judgment of the day, there are four fingers pointed back at you. You might be interested to learn more about Picasso and Van Gogh; maybe they were "jerks" but they also offered the world something that carries some value. When you label them "jerks" and walk away, you miss the opportunity to understand what that was. They were both sincere and true men. How can someone be a a sincere and true man and a "jerk" at the same time? Something to ponder.

[paulr]

[QUOTE=chris jordanThey were both sincere and true men. How can someone be a a sincere and true man and a "jerk" at the same time? Something to ponder.[/QUOTE]

I think it's possible, even common. And I'm not saying this to pass judgment on Picasso or van Gogh or anyone else I don't know. Just some observations about people.

I see people who are true to themselves, to their beliefs, to their mission, to their work--in short, sincere and true men--who do not seem to care about anyone else. Or about the effect they have on anyone else. There are people who believe so much in the importance of what they're doing, that they exempt themselves from treating others well. They often cut a wide swath of misery and heartbreak as they move through the world. If we admire them for their accomplishments, then we are more likely to get away with this behavior. Sometimes we even admire them FOR this behavior. We like to romanticize the tyrannical genius. Maybe because secretly we wish we could get away with not giving a shit, too.

I don't think it's a stretch to call these people jerks. Doing so doesn't negate their accomplishments. Being a jerk doesn't make you less of a painter or writer. Getting an A+ in art doesn't stop you from failing in interpersonal relationships, and vice versa.

Perhaps the most important thing to notice is the counterexamples to the famous jerk-geniuses. History shows us that you don't have to mistreat people in order to follow your passions. I've met a small number of great writers and musicians and artists in my life, and have often been struck by their humility and kindness and generosity. Only some of them have been jerks. This tells me that if you pick a genius to emmulate, you do have a choice.

[Bill_1856]

Chris, I am well aware that it takes one to know one.

[chris jordan]

Very well said, Paul. There are many few world-class artists who break that mold of genius-jerk. Richard Misrach is one of them-- he's as humble and classy and decent as a person could be; an inspiring role model for anyone who aspires to acheive excellence in photographic art. The guitarist Pat Metheny is another-- not an egotistic bone in the man's body despite being one of the great musicians of his generation. And many of the poets I've run across seem to be like this too; there seems to be something about poetry that way. It's too bad about people like Picasso; I admire his work but definitely can't respect the way he behaved. In the end it dilutes the power of his work.

[Hugo Zhang]

I have covered some 400 pages of his letters so far. Maybe by the end of the 2,000 pages, I will understand why Bill thinks he was a jerk.

In his mid 20s, he went to a mining town as a missionary. This is how people remembered him:

"The family which had taken Vincent in had simple habits, and lived like working people.
But our evangelist very soon showed toward his lodgings the peculiar feelings which dominated him: he considered the accommodation far too luxurious; it shocked his Christian humility, he could not bear being lodged comfortably, in a way so different from that of the miners. Therefore he left these people who had surrounded him with sympathy and went to live in a little hovel. There he was all alone; he had no furniture, and people said he slept crouched down in a corner of the hearth.
Besides this, the clothes he wore outdoors reveals the originality of his aspirations; people saw him issue forth clad in an old soldier's tunic and a shabby cap, and he went about the village in this attire. The fine suits he had arrived in never reappeared; nor did he buy any new ones. It is true that he had only a modest salary, but it was sufficient to permit him to dress in accordance with his social position. Why had the boy changed this way?
Faced with the destitution he encountered on his visits, his pity had induced him to give away nearly all his clothes; his money had found its way into the hands of the poor, and one might say that he had kept nothing for himself. His religious sentiments were very ardent, and he wanted to obey the words of Jesus Christ to the letter.
He felt obliged to imitate the early Christians, to sacrifice all he could live without, and he wanted to be even more destitute than the majority of the miners to whom he preached the Gospel.
I must add that also his Dutch cleanliness was singularly abandoned; soap was banished as a wicked luxuary; and when our evangelist was not wholly covered with a layer of the coal dust, his face was usually dirtier than that of the miners. Exterior details did not trouble him; he was absorbed in his ideal of self-denial, but for the rest he showed that his attitude was not the consequence of laisser-aller, but a consistent practicing of the ideas governing his conscience.
He no longer felt any inducement to take care of his own well-being--his heart had been aroused by the sight of others' want.
He preferred to go to the unfortunate, the wounded, the sick, and always stayed with them a long time; he was willing to make any sacrifice to relieve their sufferings.
In addition, his profound sensitivity was not limited to the human race. Vincent van Gogh respected every creature's life, even of those most despised.
A repulsive caterpillar did not provoke his disgust; it was a living creature, and as such, deserved protection.
The family with whom he had boarded told me that every time he found a caterpillar on the ground in the garden, he carefully picked it up and took it to a tree. Apart from this trait, which perhaps will be considered insignificant or even foolish, I have retained the impression that Vincent van Gogh was actuated by a high ideal: self-forgetfulness and devotion to all other beings was the guiding principle which he accepted wholeheartedly.
He would squat in the mine fields and draw the women picking up pieces of coal and going away laden with heavy sacks.
It was observed that he did not reproduce the pretty things to which we are wont to attribute beauty.
He made some portraits of old women, but for the rest, nobody attached any importance to an activity that was considered a mere hobby.
But it would seem that such an artist, also, our young man had a predilection for all that seemed miserable to him.
These, sir, are a few reminiscences which my aged memory has tried to collect..."

A few years later, he wrote to his brother:

"Once I nursed for six weeks or two months a poor miserable miner who had been burned. I shared my food for a whole winter with a poor old man, and heaven knows what else, and now there is Sien(Sien is a sick and pregnant woman Van Gogh picked up from the street, uneducated with a face marred by smallpox, abandoned with a little girl, Hugo's note.). But so far I have never thought all this foolish or wrong. I think it so natural and right that I cannot understand people being so indifferent to each other in general. I must add that if I were wrong in doing this, you were also wrong in helping me so faithfully--it would be too absurd if this were wrong. I have always believed that "love thy neighbor as thyself" is no exaggeration, but a normal condition."

If this guy with a heart of pure gold was a jerk, who among us is not one?

[paulr]

a person's own letters (where he conveys his own image of himself, his own version of his deeds) might not be the most reliable place to find out what he was really like.

my letters express some pretty lofty intentions ... but if you want to find out if i'm a jerk, talk to my exes, or to my waiter from last night.

[Hugo Zhang]

Paulr,

I have just quoted other people's memories of van Gogh.

[Kendrick Pereira]

Hugo: Please remember, I did not call Vincent Van Gogh a jerk - but by implication you did.

What I did was ask you what you meant by your assertion that "A jerk could be a true man as long as he has the courage to be true to himself". That assertion was entirely yours, all of it. For myself, I reserve judgement as to whether Van Gogh was a jerk. The fact that I find him to be one of the most beguiling of all the nineteenth century painters - no, the most beguiling of them all - does not oblige me to assess his behaviour towards his fellow men as that of a decent man. If I do that - and I might - it would be on quite different grounds.

To be a great artist and give the world something that is of very great value as both Van Gogh and Picasso did, requires great talent and also great diligence but not decency of conduct towards other people, who are also entitled to consideration. You do not need to behave badly either, you can choose. There are many examples of artists whose conduct measured up very well. I don't mean that they were saintly but their standards stood comparision very well with that of their fellow men generally. I know of nothing particularly heinous against Manet, Monet or Renoir, for example: and consider Edgar Degas, who voluntarily dipped into his own pocket to help pay creditors when the business of another family member crashed. It was strictly speaking not Edgar's problem but his standards were such that he did not feel it would be honourable to wash his hands of it as, I am sure, most people in his position would today. Something to ponder? What would you do in that situation? I know what I would do and I honour his generosity. The worst I know of that anyone could say of Edgar Degas was that he was reserved and capable of being a bit brusque in his manner on occasion.

[tim atherton]

In many ways I much prefer Gauguin - who was both a great artists AND a great arsehole....

[Saulius]

Being unable to speak to Van Gogh I can only speculate if he was or wasn't a jerk. But having just rewatched the movie Vincent, he does speak in his letters several times about people who "bug" him while he is doing his work. And he also comments how while locked up in an asylum while in the garden the "insane" individuals there know well enough to not bother him while the other people on the outside aren't so respectful. I think many of us can relate to that. Being out somewhere under a dark cloth, trying to compose an image, taking a meter reading, looking at the subject matter in concentration only to have someone come and start talking to you. It may be innocent enough to them but they may not understand how that effects me and what I am trying to do. Some of us have no problem with this, and actually enjoy the conversations. Personally I'd prefer they wait until I appear at least to be done with whatever I am doing. Maybe some of the impressions people got of Van Gogh was caused by their own actions.
From a book entitled Art and Physics - Parallel Visions In Space, Time and Light.

If you are alone you belong entirely to yourself... If you are accompanied by even one companion you belong only half to yourself, or even less, in proportion to the thoughtlessness of his conduct; and if you have more than one companion you will fall more deeply into the same plight. - Leonardo da Vinci

[Nicholas F. Jones]

Belatedly following up on paulr's early post, ... from Joni Mitchell's tour de force of imagery "A Case of You" in the Blue album (1971):

Oh I am a lonely painter
I live in a box of paints

The double live album Miles of Aisles (1974) preserves some stage patter. At one point, fending off fans' requests for her hits, Joni says something like: "No one ever said to Van Gogh 'paint A Starry Night again, man!'" (Trusting my memory on this one, haven't listened to the album since CD's came in).

If we searched, we could probably dredge up some unwelcome things about Mitchell the person, her private life. But isn't it Joni Mitchell the singer-songwriter/painter that creates my/our interest in her? If she indeed live in a box of paints, can we expect her (or anyone else) to get everything else right? I suspect that an unblemished reputation is the result of artifully concealing facts about oneself, ... or the efforts of a good pr agent.

[Mark Sawyer]

Actually, if you want a more realistic insight into Van Gogh's drive and personality, I'd suggest the book "Seized, Temporal Lobe Epilepsy as a Medical, Historical, and Artistic Phenomenon", by Eve La Plante. The first chapter is devoted to Van Gogh.

While he was still alive, Van Gogh was diagnosed with Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, a condition also known as "the Poet's Disease", as it afflicted so many practitioners of that art. Edgar Allen Poe, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, Lewis Carroll, Dostoevsky, George Gershwin, Marcel Proust, Oscar Wilde, and quite a few others in the arts were diagnosed with TLE. Understanding how it affects the mind and the creative process is key to understanding both the artist and the art.

Among the noted side-effects of TLE: a heightened sense of religiousity, a compulsive drive to record through writing or visual art, and more liberal firing of neurons in the brain, (which leads to the seizures).

[Kendrick Pereira]

I don't know what has happened to my post of a few minutes ago, but it has disappeared.

I just asked Hugo in which book he found the passage he quoted re: the elderly man befriended by Van Gogh.

[Hugo Zhang]

Kendrick,

The complete Letters of Vincent van Gogh, Volume I, page 223-225, page 420

Hugo

[Hugo Zhang]

Mark,

"Marcel Proust, and quite a few others in the arts were diagnosed with TLE."

Certainly I am surprised to read his name here. Reading him for years, very first time to see TLE linked to him. Any other proof?

Hugo

[tim atherton]

Kendrick,

The complete Letters of Vincent van Gogh, Volume I, page 223-225, page 420

Hugo

I love serendipity - I just brought the whole (what three volume?) boxed set back home from the bookcase at the cottage with the intention of reading them - now sooner rather than later!

[Bill_1856]

Mark,

"Marcel Proust, and quite a few others in the arts were diagnosed with TLE."
Hugo

TLE was a popular diagonsis at the time. Consider it about as accurate as "the vapors."

[Hugo Zhang]

Tim,

That's the same set I am reading. It has been sitting on my bookcase for two years. This time I intend to finish it.

Enjoy!
Hugo

[cyrus]

I wonder if you had encountered either Van Gogh or Gaugan on the street, if you woud have recognized either as an artist. I suspect I would have thought Van Gough to be a weirdo, and Gaugan as a spoiled rich kid who was trying to hard to be bohemian while living off his father's trust fund.

[Mark Sawyer]

Mark,

"Marcel Proust, and quite a few others in the arts were diagnosed with TLE."

Certainly I am surprised to read his name here. Reading him for years, very first time to see TLE linked to him. Any other proof?

Hugo

I took my reference from Eve LaPlante's book, where she credited William Gordon Lennox as the doctor who named TLE as Proust'd condition. Lennox was one of the world's leading neurologists, and began the practice of using EEG's as a test for epilepsy. This has become the standard practice, still in use worldwide today.

~ Mark

[Mark Sawyer]

TLE was a popular diagonsis at the time. Consider it about as accurate as "the vapors."

"The vapors" was an archaic term referring very vaguely to a wide range of emotional disturbances from depression to PMS.

TLE is a recognized specific condition. It wasn't a "popular" diagnosis at that time; it had just been recognized as a separate type of epilepsy (it was called "psychic epilepsy" at the time) and was underdiagnosed for decades. TLE has some unique and easily recognizable symptoms that make it fairly reliable to diagnose, even in retrospect. Besides auras and seizures, recognized symptoms may include strong spells of deja vu, auditory hallucinations, heightened religiosity, and hypergraphy (the urge to write/draw/paint in obsessive quantities). The asymmetry of Van Gogh's face is also typical of someone with scarring to one side of the brain from birth. Van Gogh is known to have had a very difficult birth; scarring to the brain from lack of oxygen would account for his face and his seizures.

Van Gogh was diagnosed with epilepsy on December 26, 1888 by Dr. Felix Rey, a French doctor. Van Gogh was hospitalized for epilepsy and responded well to potassium bromide, the main treatment for epilepsy at the time. When he drank absinthe, known to aggravate epilepsy, his seizures worsened.

There is a lot of documentation of Van Gogh's case. It is pretty well accepted today that he had TLE.

[paulr]

I suspect I would have thought Van Gough to be a weirdo, and Gaugan as a spoiled rich kid who was trying to hard to be bohemian while living off his father's trust fund.

i've wondered about that kind of thing too. if i had the chance (or misfortune) to go back in time and meet some of my heroes, how many would i recognize? how many would i like? how many would turn around and punch me in the nose?

[Hugo Zhang]

Mark,

I would agree with you on most names there. Eve Plante should have added Flaubert to that list too. But how could Dr. Lennox, a living professor of UCLA, diagnose Proust with TLE using EEG test? Proust died in 1922. I am intimately familiar with Proust and it was a surprise to see him on the list.

Hugo

[Mark Sawyer]

Mark,

I would agree with you on most names there. Eve Plante should have added Flaubert to that list too. But how could Dr. Lennox, a living professor of UCLA, diagnose Proust with TLE using EEG test? Proust died in 1922. I am intimately familiar with Proust and it was a surprise to see him on the list.

Hugo

I just checked; LaPlante refers to Flaubert's TLE eight times in the index of her book. My list of epilepsy victims was a very condensed version. It's scary how many in the arts are now thought (among neurologists) to have had TLE. Oddly, however, none that I know of in photography...

Lennox's very-post-mortem diagnosis was based on accounts of Proust's life and medical history from his doctors, his contemporaries, and from Proust's own writings. The opening of Swann's Way, the first in the five volumes in Remembrances of Things Past, (note: the American translation is always "Past", not "Passed", which would have been the correct translation. American publishers opted to save two letters...) of having memories for the entire anthology recalled by ther aroma of "petite madelines" is now regarded among neurologists as a classic description of a TLE aura.

[Hugo Zhang]

Mark,

The new and correct English translation of the title A La Recherche Du Temps Perdu is In Search Of Lost Time. I like it better.

In one of his letters to his brother, van Gogh wrote: "Greatness is not accidental, it has to be willed." He, as well as Proust, simplifying their life in their last 15-20 years, did nothing but painted and wrote for us later generations.

Maybe LaPlante is right, but I just can't accept the implied view that their greatness is accidental partly because they are simply sick people with TLE and that sickness drove them to create.

Hugo

[paulr]

you guys could turn this into a talk show. Have a pannel of shrinks and psychopharmacologists who argue about diagnosing great historical figures. You could do artists, musicians, dictators, captains of industry, criminals, etc. etc.

[Mark Sawyer]

you guys could turn this into a talk show. Have a pannel of shrinks and psychopharmacologists who argue about diagnosing great historical figures. You could do artists, musicians, dictators, captains of industry, criminals, etc. etc.

Sorry, Paul. I just find it a fascinating topic, as it deals so directly with some of the mechanics of creativity, an area we usually only can speak of in the very abstract...

[Mark Sawyer]

Mark,

The new and correct English translation of the title A La Recherche Du Temps Perdu is In Search Of Lost Time. I like it better.

In one of his letters to his brother, van Gogh wrote: "Greatness is not accidental, it has to be willed." He, as well as Proust, simplifying their life in their last 15-20 years, did nothing but painted and wrote for us later generations.

Maybe LaPlante is right, but I just can't accept the implied view that their greatness is accidental partly because they are simply sick people with TLE and that sickness drove them to create.

Hugo

I like that title better too. Amazing how hard a simple translation can be...

I don't mind accepting that a medical condition, especially one as bizarre as TLE, can have a serious influence on an artist's work. Look at how many great love poems and songs we owe to momentary over-abundances of hormones...

[Hugo Zhang]

Look at how many great love poems and songs we owe to momentary over-abundances of hormones...

So true! The difference is we all have those moments of over-abundance of hormones, but those great artists have the wills and magic skills turn those moments into everlasting pieces of art.

Hugo

[Jim Jones]

. . . Look at how many great love poems and songs we owe to momentary over-abundances of hormones...

And to a personality that precluded the normal ways of coping with hormones. However, if Van Gogh, Beethoven, and Schubert had been thus distracted, the rest of the World would be a poorer place.

[John Kasaian]

The overall tone suggests that one has to be diagnosed with that infernal disorder in order to be a crackerjack artist. Interesting scenarios might include

A) Developing a vaccine or maybe surgical proceedure to rid society of the disorder as well as artists and aleve the poor blokes form thier suffering.

B) Develop a way to propagate the disorder in accountants, government officials, school administrators, museum curators and other people who feel artistically challenged.

Cheers!

[Marco]

Hugo, I highly recommend the reading of Antonin Artaud's essay about Van Gogh, "Van Gogh, le suicidé de la société" (english title: Van Gogh, the man suicided by society), I think that the only english translation available is the one contained in "Antonin Artaud, selected writings" (University of California Press), edited by Susan Sontag, but do some researches, maybe there are more recent books...

Artaud suffered from mental illness too, and his essay about Van Gogh is written with the blood and the nerves, it's pure poetry, this is one of those writings that changed my life and my approach to art...

Ciao
Marco

[Hugo Zhang]

Thanks, Marco! I have ordered the book. Sometimes I wonder aloud if my fascination with the insane, -Neitszche, van Gogh, Hamlet and King Lear-, just to name a few, is an indication of my own current mental state, or the direction it is going. Thank God I have other obsessions in my life. I have yet to learn a LF photographer AND an avid swimmer gone mad...

[Marco]

Thanks, Marco! I have ordered the book. Sometimes I wonder aloud if my fascination with the insane, -Neitszche, van Gogh, Hamlet and King Lear-, just to name a few, is an indication of my own current mental state, or the direction it is going. Thank God I have other obsessions in my life. I have yet to learn a LF photographer AND an avid swimmer gone mad...



“For I is someone else…

…The poet makes himself a visionary (voyant) by a long, immense, and rational dissoluteness of all the senses. All the forms of love, of suffering, of madness; he searches himself, he consumes all the poisons in him, to only keep their quitessence. Inexpressable torture, where he needs all the faith, all the superhuman strength, where he becomes the great patient, the great criminal, the great accursed, above all others - and the supreme Savant! - For he attains the unknown!...”

(Arthur Rimbaud)


;) ;) ;) ;)


Ciao
Marco

[paulr]

Sorry, Paul. I just find it a fascinating topic, as it deals so directly with some of the mechanics of creativity, an area we usually only can speak of in the very abstract...

I agree!

I also think it's funny when conversations shift from f-stops to post-impressionist painters to interpretations of the DSM-IV. Part of what's great about this forum.

[Bill_1856]

I just ordered the DVD from Amazon. Hope it's as good as you say. I have the one from A&E's Biography series, which is pretty much straight factual.
I still doubt the diagnosis of primary TLE, but no telling what was going on in his brain from his earlier syphlis, and all that absinthe, not to mention the turpentine and lead base paints he nibbled. Whatever it was we'll never know for sure -- just a lot of speculation without an autopsy.

[john1565]

Van Gogh's life is a classic example of sufferings from psychological disorder by artists, poets, and novelist. Moreover, in that period medical science was not very advanced. Also, societies have misconception about the illness. All these intensified the problem

[Jac@stafford.net]

Van Gogh's life is a classic example of sufferings from psychological disorder by artists, poets, and novelist. Moreover, in that period medical science was not very advanced. Also, societies have misconception about the illness. All these intensified the problem

As you mentioned, medical science was so primitive then that nobody paid it any attention, and so very many 'eccentric' personalities existed that they were considered within the scope of the norm. Some were considered pests, and others as saints, and the everyday possibly amusing, good company. Finally consider environmental factors such as wretched food, living conditions and drugs, some delivered in common alcoholic drinks.

For all we know Van Gogh's angst might be from perpetual hangovers.

Why don't we include bankers, businessmen, fishers, blacksmiths, priests, philosophers, chemists and so-forth within the aura of 'psychological disordered' individuals? Because they have no cultural history and their conditions do not add market value.

We can find plenty of the same today if we look underneath the veneer of popular history. Begin by looking at the personality of William Shockley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Shockley#Political_views).

[pepeguitarra]

I read all the letters Vincent wrote to his brother, not only the 100 compiled in that famous book. I have a deluxe edition of his letters. I think he is be best letter writer in the whole world. He was ahead of his time, as his paintings show. However, he was a sick man too. Starting with the religion indoctrination he had. He wanted to be like his father, but was rejected. He must have had something that made him impossible to deal with. Even Gaugin, who was paid by Theo to live with him got tired of him. Again, that is part of being an artist, a genius. Maybe his bipolarity made him do that, but he was a good man. Picasso was the best chicken feet painter. His father made him paint chicken feet when he was doing his own paintings. His father was a teacher at an academy for 18 year olds and older. One day Picasso's father asked the director of the academy if his son could study at the academy (Pablo was 12). They say, if he pass the screening, he can be here. They gave Pablo 2 months to do two painting. He painted them in one week. One was of a beautiful girls without shoes, the beauty of that painting does not envy to any of the masters of the renascence. The other one was of his father sick on a bed with a nurse by his side. Although, he finished in one week, he didn't tell his father because he was afraid that there was something wrong with them. After one month, he told his father, who took the paintings to the academy and it marveled the directors and other professors. He as accepted. By age 17 he had invented the Cubism, by age 19, he had invented the curvilinear cubism, and by age 21, he left for Paris. The story continues....., but there is no room here for that. He starved in Paris and he had to burn his own painting to deal with the cold in his rented room. He also had a brain, he married he daughter of a Russian general who had money and social position. That allowed him to move in high circles....etc. Back to Vincent. He is the master of struggle, he is the man who did not know how to draw, and still took painting. He learned to paint wit such enthusiasm, that one of his early paintings (The Potato Eaters) is a master piece and says more than anything, all the struggles and sufferings he had during his prior life. Hey, back to take photos of trees, to see if we can be like Sexton or Ansel Adams.

[Dan O'Farrell]

Bill,

Why do you find Vincent a terrible PITA? Have you read his letters? I was much moved by his paintings a few years ago when I first saw the originals. I never really like Picasso though, even I admire his talent.

A jerk could be a true man as long as he has the courage to be true to himself.

Hugo

Hugo, read "Van Gogh: The Life – December 4, 2012, by Steven Naifeh (Author),‎ Gregory White Smith (Author).

It's very good, and complete, and recent. It may explain why some feel that VVG was a PITA, while others see a tormented saint.

[Tin Can]

Sociological dis-ease

I despise what Gauguin did to old buddy VVG

[john1565]

Hmm. For whom who want to see The Potato Eaters by Gogh mentioned in pepeguitarra's post: https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/the-potato-eaters/7gFcKarE9QeaXw?utm_source=google&utm_medium=kp&hl=en&avm=2

By the way, just explored Van Gogh's life through all places he were in throughout his life and found this worthy of sharing with you. CAFÉ AUBERGE RAVOUX (http://www.wikitour.io/travel-destinations/the-house-of-van-gogh-cafe-auberge-ravoux) was the place Van Gogh passed his last 70 days. You can go through Van Gogh's whole life from there.

[Tin Can]

Seeing Van Gogh work at the https://www.vangoghmuseum.nl/en in 1975 was my first exposure to great Art. I was raised without art or music. 'Silence is golden.'

Van Gogh impresses with honesty in depicting inner self and painting what he saw. Madness shown brightly.

Genius exhibited. What a fantastic museum. Unparalleled.

I am still impressed. This sparks a separate thread.

[Mark Sampson]

When this thread was new, I thought "I need to read those letters". Haven't yet, even after three years at the Phillips Collection, and studying their Van Goghs (as well as various of his works that were brought in for special exhibitions). It's time. abebooks has copies available under $4.00 so there's no excuse.