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Scott Watts
27-Jul-2006, 11:48
Hi All,

Can anyone recommend a fiber paper that is as white as RC? I've been using Ilford Multigrae FB for years, as it has somewhat similar exposure characteristics as the Ilford Multigrade RC I also use. However, I really dont like the off-white color of the fiber, and would like to find something brighter. The prints will be displayed in Light Impression's Westminster Duo-Tone board, so I need a paper that matches the brightness of this board. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Scott

David A. Goldfarb
27-Jul-2006, 12:03
I haven't tested for a couple of years, but when I last did, Ilford Galerie graded had the brightest base. I was surprised that it was brighter than MGIV FB.

Doremus Scudder
27-Jul-2006, 13:34
Scott,

I've been using Oriental Seagull G graded papers for years, as well as the Gallerie. Both are very neutral, bright white (I think the Seagull is a bit brighter, but not much). Most rag boards I could find were too yellow-tinted for my taste until I switched to the Archival Mount bright white board. It matches the whites in the paper exactly.

Hope this helps a bit.

Louie Powell
27-Jul-2006, 16:41
Kentmere Fineprint VC has a very white base.

Walter Foscari
28-Jul-2006, 07:27
From what I remember of my darkroom days Kentmere Fineprint Neutral and Bergger had the whitest base. Both excellent papers.

Scott Watts
31-Jul-2006, 06:28
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I'll see if I can find any of those papers locally first, but, I'm sure that I'll have to resort to locating them online.

Scott

Jerry Flynn
31-Jul-2006, 12:32
Another possibility (one that I learned from talking to Frank Gohlke many years ago) is to use Sprint End Run wetting agent/stabilizer with the addition of their Print Brightener additive. It replaces the optical brightener that manufacturers put into some papers. The optical brighteners can wash out during processing. You treat the print for a minute after is has been washed.

This does not change the basic color of the paper base, but noticably brightens the print. I have no idea of what effect it has in terms of print permanence, but can be removed by rewashing the print.

Scott Watts
15-Aug-2006, 13:54
Thanks again for your replies. I ordered 50 sheets each of the Kentmere Fineprint VC and Oriental Seagull VC-FBII, as well as 25 sheets of Bergger Prestige Variable NB (pricey stuff) all in 11x14 size. Today, I was able to spend some time printing one of my favorite negatives with each paper. I also printed the neg on my old standby...MGFB. So far, the early leader in this empirical test is the Kentmere. It has a similar emulsion speed as MGFB (about one stop faster than MGRC), but the tonal range is soooooo much better. The image came up so quickly in the developer, that I almost thought I had mistakenly exposed a sheet of RC paper, and the base is just as white as Multigrade RC...making it the whitest of the bunch The Bergger and Oriental have a slower emulsion (about one stop), and both seem to have much more contrast than either the Ilford or the Kentmere.

I put each into a 1:10 dilution of selinium for my standard 4 minutes, and again, the Kentmere looks best so far. I was very disappointed in the Bergger, as it became reddish-brown as it toned, as opposed to a cool blue.

I'll save final judgement until tomorrow, when I view the dry prints. I'll also likely make another print with the Oriental to get a feel for it's contrast (it looks like a good canidate for second place, with a base almost as white as the Kentmere). However, it looks like I'll be buying alot more Kentmere paper in the future. I'll post more when I make my final evaluation.

Scott

Scott Watts
17-Aug-2006, 13:01
Kentmere is definitely the winner. This surprises me a bit, because I had never really heard anything about Kentmere paper before this thread. I had always printed on either Kodak, Ilford, or Brilliant, and was never pleased with any of their fiber papers. My best looking prints had always been on RC paper, as it just seemed to work better for my style of printing. I would print on fiber when I had to, but, I really didn't like the results...and I absolutely hate the guesswork involved with dry-down effect. Now, I've finally found a paper that will give me the image quality I'm looking for and the permamence of fiber.

Kentmere is a fast emulsion paper which has a wonderful tonal scale that holds the highlights very well. It also has an extremely white base. In the developer, the intial image clearly pops up in the first 30 seconds, then just slowly mellows in the highlights for the remainer of the developement. My only two complaints about the paper center around selenium toning. I wish it would respond to toning more dramatically than it does, and there are also mysterious black blotches that show up along the edges of some of the prints...only after I put it in the selenium. That's not a huge concern for me though, as I routinely print with a generous border and the mat covers the affected area.

Thanks again for all your input.

Scott

Eric Biggerstaff
17-Aug-2006, 13:09
Scott,

The black "blotches" or stains that show up when you place the prints in the toner can result from not correctly fixing the print. If you have not already done it, carefully check the rest of the print to make sure you don't find any stains.

Just a thought.

I have been toying with the idea of trying some of the Kentmere products so I just might now that I read your review.

Thanks.

Scott Watts
17-Aug-2006, 13:42
Eric,

I dont think it's a problem with the fix. As I said, it only shows up once in the selenium, and it looks alot like mold or something. I've attached a photo that I shot of the problem area, to give you a better idea.

Thanks,

Scott

Eric Biggerstaff
17-Aug-2006, 13:47
Hmmmmmmmmmm........well not sure now. Often if a print is not fully fixed stains will appear once it goes into the toner so that is why I was thinking it might be causing this, but, heck that looks strange.

lee\c
17-Aug-2006, 14:20
Hmmmmmmmmmm........well not sure now. Often if a print is not fully fixed stains will appear once it goes into the toner so that is why I was thinking it might be causing this, but, heck that looks strange.

doesnt kentmere recommend a very short wet time? Like 45 min total? maybe that is what is causing the stain.

lee\c

Scott Watts
17-Aug-2006, 18:46
Lee,
Thanks for the suggestion. I just checked the data sheet, but, couldn't find any reference to a 45 minute wet time. In fact the sheet read much like any other regarding processing. They recommend a 30-40 minute wash after fixing, and another 30 minutes after toning.
FWIW the stains/blotches only seem to show up along one short end of my 11x14s.

Eric,
You've got a great website. Love those images in the gallery man. Also, whatever this problem is, it's not anything serious. I'm pretty low on my stock Ilford Rapidfix in a cubetainer, so I'll open up a fresh one and run a few prints through it tomorrow, just to make sure my current fixer stock isnt tired and oxidized. At any rate, I highly recommend that you try Kentmere. Bet you'll make the switch.

Scott

Eric Biggerstaff
18-Aug-2006, 07:44
Thank you very much for the compliment Scott.

I will give the Kentmere a try this winter when the weather makes me spend more time indoors. I have been wanting to check it out as I have heard nice things about it.

Thanks again.

LewisDowney
25-Nov-2011, 02:06
Scott,

[as though a 5 1/2 year problem was still top of mind]

I wonder if the discoloration is caused by your easel blades contacting the paper. Perhaps they are physically damaging the emulsion in a subtle way - maybe the easel occasionally drops hard onto the paper and abrades the surface slightly. Since the issue is intermittent, maybe there is a slight amount of contamination due to moisture or chemicals creeping under the blades when you adjust them.

I also wonder if light could be reflecting off of the paper and under tiny gaps at the edge of the easel blades.

How intermittent are (were?) the blotches? If you make multiple prints of the same negative, do they all have the problem? Are the blotches always in the same place for the same negative? Are the blotches always in the same place no matter what negative you are printing? Do they show up on different brands, surfaces, grades, or boxes of paper?

Lewis

jeroldharter
25-Nov-2011, 20:31
Kentmere is my primary paper. You can get nice tonal shift and increased DMax with selenium toner 1:19 for ~ 2 minutes. I mix the selenium toner in Permawash and use it for just one session. If you use selenium without Permawash and re-use it, you should filter it.

Check out the heylloyd website for some good practical info:

http://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/technicl.html

Andrew O'Neill
27-Nov-2011, 11:45
Side by side, Kentmere, then Oriental VC, then Ilford MGIV according to my eyeballs.

IanG
27-Nov-2011, 12:18
One thingto remember is the range of paper bases has dropped to one now for FB since 2006 and RC's possibly the same.

Ian

Kirk Gittings
27-Nov-2011, 13:08
A question about bright white papers which are that bright white because of optical brighteners. Before 1950, no commercially available gelatin silver paper had optical brighteners. After 1966, most did. Now I understand that virtually all currently available gelatin silver papers have optical brighteners.

In inkjet papers OBAs have been proven to affect longevity. Why do we not concern ourselves with that issue on GS papers?

IanG
27-Nov-2011, 13:21
A question about bright white papers which are that bright white because of optical brighteners. Before 1950, no commercially available gelatin silver paper had optical brighteners. After 1966, most did. Now I understand that virtually all currently available gelatin silver papers have optical brighteners.

In inkjet papers OBAs have been proven to affect longevity. Why do we not concern ourselves with that issue on GS papers?

For B&W printing they leech out in a longer wash or soak, a tip that Ilford have mentioned with MG Warmtone FB papers on the newer white base.

Silver Gelatin and RA-4 dyes aren't the same as Injet dyes and so will behave differently.

Ian

Sal Santamaura
4-Aug-2014, 10:38
This thread popped up in a Google search I just performed while looking for related information, thus the latest "resurrection." :)


...In inkjet papers OBAs have been proven to affect longevity. Why do we not concern ourselves with that issue on GS papers?Some of us do. That's why, after a long series of twists and turns, I've now settled on Multigrade Warmtone FB, developed in Neutol NE, then toned in T-26 gold toner. It's the only way I found to get a neutral-cold print on a paper without brightener, since extended washing removes the small amount that product starts out with.


For B&W printing they leech out in a longer wash or soak, a tip that Ilford have mentioned with MG Warmtone FB papers on the newer white base...The Ilford documentation is quite clear that, among its fiber based papers, only Multigrade Warmtone has brighteners which can be washed out. The others are described as "anchored" and resistant to even very long wet times.

With respect to the latest Ilford fiber based papers, I find Multigrade Classic to have about the same (fairly high) level of brightener as did Multigrade IV FB, while the new Multigrade Cooltone FB is so loaded with brightener it looks garish to me.