Why does the US seem to produce LF photographers?

[Ian_5357]

Just thinking...

Without wishing to offend any currect practitioners, it seems to me as a European that the US has produced the vast majority, if not all of the renowned, esteemed large format photographers. I'm sure I needn't catalogue them here but my list at least doesn't include anyone from outside of north America.

Is this a gap in my (self-)education? (If yes, please point me in the right direction.)

Or perhaps this concentration of talent does exist? If so, why? Is there more exposure to the large format ethos, the tradition and its proponents in the US (looking at the users lists on this forum, 90% seem to be from north America)? Is US LF photographic education better than Europe? Or could it be something more mundane, such as access to affordable equipment? Perhaps a younger nation has adopted a younger medium more readily than "old Europe" with its tradition in painting, for example?

I'd be interested in your views.

Ian

[Dan Fromm]

http://www.galerie-photo.info/

[Emre Yildirim]

This could be said about other areas (i.e. medicine, science, music, film) outside of photography as well. Where are all the major art works and art museums located? Where is all the money? Who has the current edge?

While I don't have a good answer to your question, I can speak from personal experience. Having grown up in Germany and now living in the US, I see myself having much more opportunity here at a younger age that I could've ever had in Germany. Would I be shooting LF right now if I still lived in Germany? Probably not. I would probably not be able to afford it, and most certainly wouldn't have time for it.

There is this high level of convenience that we have in North America. For example, I'm 23 years old and 90% of the photos I take nowadays are 4x5. This is just a part-time hobby for me; I also have school and work that I need to worry about. I live in a small Oregon town with a population of 135,000, yet there are two photolabs here that will do same day E6 processing (up to 8x10) and they stock up on in-store LF film. I can get drum scans and high-end digital prints and even traditional B&W printing, with a turn around time of just a couple of days. Most importantly, the cost is fairly decent; I pay $1.50/sheet for development and sometimes even get discounts for being a good customer. These photolabs are 10 minutes away from me.

There are other things, like you mention for example, the availibility of equipment. If I need some sort of specialized equipment, I can just order it from B&H and it's here on my doorstep within three days. It's also much cheaper, since we don't have any sales tax here. All these factors enable me to shoot more LF and develop my skill. They allow me to get better at LF photography.

But let me also say that we're very good at marketing ourselves. How does a photographer become "renowned"? Isn't it solely dependent on what other people say about that person? Maybe it's Americans who make these American photographers famous :)

I've seen amazing photographs made by people throughout Europe, Brazil and Russia, but we never really hear about them. Why? Because currently, I think the English speaking world has a monopoly on the art scene.

[Walt Calahan]

I share Emre's belief in the cultural factor, as well as industrial infrastructure.

[Frank Petronio]

The reason we have alot of large format photographers is capitialism, relative prosperity, materialism, competitiveness, the desire to have/be the "ultimate", the best, the most, and especially the largest. Also a large number of OCD enabled engineering types who use LF as a way to commune with nature. And a good education system between numerous books, workshops, schools, and the net.

I think the positive aspects outweigh the negatives. The results are beautiful.

[medform-norm]

So it boils down to one thing: in America everything is bigger and better? Hmmm.

I don't think all the money is in the US either, seeing how much this country is in debt with nations like China. It may soon be that all the money has travelled eastwards to such moloch as China and India. I also think that the statement that "all the major art works are in Amera" is open to objections.

With Imre's background as probably a second or third generation Turkish immigrant in Germany, the move to America has been a wise one, with all the discriminations he would have had to face over here. (Which is a real shame and not someting I am proud of).

[Donald Hutton]

Having lived on four different continents in the past ten years, I am of the opinion that there is nowhere else that photography in general has the same appeal and appreication at almost every level that it has in the US. From the photographic record which Americans (that is obviously a huge generalisation, but I think it's accurate) tend to keep of their families all the way up to the kind of art they decorate their homes and offices with, photography is just a bigger, more widespread medium here than anywhere else I have been. I would expect that LF interest is really just an extension of this.

[Henry Ambrose]

I'm with Emre and Frank but also suggest that the "Adams" factor plays large. You take a bunch of people who came here from all over the world looking for something better, then mix those folks with Adam's example and you're gonna get a bunch of LF photographers (and small cameras too) who think they "can do it too". Its part of the dream we share.

[Dan Fromm]

Hmm. What languages can people here read?

Ian, you may be a poster boy for anglophone ignorance of nearly everything done by people who don't speak or write English.

[Walt Calahan]

I'm glad the group is recognizing Eddie Adams here. Grin.

Me, I'm more an Elliot Porter fellow.

[Philip_5765]

Josef Sudek

Thomas Struth

August Sander

Bernd and Hilla Becher

Andreas Gursky

Not American, but still not too bad at LF.

[Andre Noble]

I'm not capable of adding anything more sociologically or economically insightful to the excellent posts above. I'll wait 'til the discussion degenerates into bigotry so as not to make the first fool of myself.

[BrianShaw]

The discussion already has started to degrade, Andre... so what do you think. I don't have enough "worldly experience" to comment on this one. Nor would I venture a guess!

But commenting on a couple of Ian's questions: Access to equipment (new and used) in US is quite handy and available. Perhaps this has a bit to do with the number of LF photographers. I don't know if photographic education is any better in US or not... I know only a couple of photographers who have any. Most photographers that I know are essentially self-taught, especailly those into LF. All of the formally-trained/educated photographers I know are well wedded to digital these days.

Personally, I keep wondering why so many LF photographers have beards... does it make them better photographers?

[Walt Calahan]

Brian

Good point.

Why do I have a beard? Too damn lazy to shave. I always cut my chin trying to transition from neck to face.

The benefit is in winter (such as last weekend) while setting up in a cold wind storm, at least my face didn't freeze.

To expand on my thoughts I posted so far, there are marvelous LF shooters all over the world, but there is something unique about the American culture in the latter part of the 20 century and the beginning of the 21 century. I liken it to Britain or Frnace in the 19th century, and their contributions to art.

Perhaps someday we'll see a rise in Chinese photographers who will tower over the art scene?

[Steve Hamley]

Maybe there's somewhat of an illusion here. Here's a link that indicates that at least for ULF, Europe is quite active, maybe as much as the US. Probably most of these European folk, like their US couterparts have a 4x5 and 8x10 laying around too.

http://www.mamutphoto.com/content/view/146/34/lang,en/

I don't think LF in other parts of the world has gotten the boost from the environmental movement that the US has gotten. Remember Cartier-Bresson's comment that went something like "The world is falling apart and Adams is taking pictures of rocks!" So many US photographers became involved in, or supporting the environmental movement which was closely coupled with LF via St. Ansel and the Sierra Club (of which he was president for a while). Also Edward Weston's work has been inspirational to many. Evidence? Look at the premium the lenses Adams used bring on eBay even though much cheaper lenses will do the job equally well. We still admire him and Weston and vote with our wallets.

That said, the cost of doing anything in most of Europe is also higher, which tends to inhibit the higher cost per shot that LF and ULF incurs. The high VAT and high gasoline prices don't help either. Certainly Europe has the landscape to "support" an Adams or Weston, but they were like many artists, rather "unwealthy" when doing most of the work for which they are most recognized.

Steve

[mark anderson]

i think i may have something to do with the age of our country and the age of photgraphy, as our western half of the country was being discoverd large format was the only format, therefor our photographer heros, adams and the like. were larger format shooters. KInda like the coyboy romance our country has.

also as our WWII baby boomers are aproaching retirement the image of the guy with the large format camera has become the image used as "time and money to do what you want" use in adverizement for investment firms and the like.

also i would like to give the digi movement some credit, ole film diehards like myself are hearing that digi is catching up with 35mm. so we are loading up with 4x5 and bigger with the ok now beat that spirit.

[Aaron van de Sande]

Some of the most interesting work I have seen lately has been from eastern europe. LF is cheap there because LF cameras a crude and easy to make. It is easy to see that with the lack of money there that there isn't a market for fine art.

[medform-norm]

Perhaps it has escaped notice, but it seems that european art photographers (the ones that actually earn money with it) don't always advertise their work as being made with a LF camera. The quality of the work is more important to them than the equipment it was made with. Also, there is no romancing the LF camera movement as there seem to be in the States. Perhaps more European (and Asian and South American) photographers are using LF and ULF equipment than is generally known. The only exception being maybe the crowd around the Becher School. I have several friends in art photography that work with LF cameras and just don't make a big deal out of, nor mention it on their website, nor is it mentioned by the galleries that sell their work. The public that buys the work would not even know in what aspects LF distinguishes itself from smaller formats. So I would say it is hard to make sweeping statements. But there seems to be a general feeling that photographers are more esteemed in the States than in Europe. In Europe the word 'artist' is not generally met with a lot of respect. Plus in the States it seems that art photography is more accepted as something to invest in than in Europe, meaning there are more buyers in the marke, who are willing to spend more money.
Really, I find it is a rather complicated issue that deserves honest research based on facts more than us just telling each other our more or less well founded opinions.

[Donald Brewster]

Well, just looking at the major LF camera manufacturers suggests that it can't be entirely true: Linhof, Sinar, Arca-Swiss, Lotus, Gandolfi, . . . . . and same with the lenses: Schneider, Rodenstock, Cooke, . . . . .

[tim atherton]

"Josef Sudek, Thomas Struth, August Sander, Bernd and Hilla Becher, Andreas Gursky

Not American, but still not too bad at LF."

Evans

Basilico

Southam

Cooke

Brandt

Esser

James

Burtynsky

Wall

Atget

Davies

Killip

and many more past and present - I think it's more a function of geocentricity

[GPS]

Why is it that in Europe there is (and always was) far more widespread photographic culture of 35 mm cameras both in manufacturing (far more excellent than in US) and in 35 mm photography?

[Eric Biggerstaff]

This is a great thread, thanks for the post Ian.

Walter hit on an interesting note about China.

It is my understanding that China is absolutely nuts about large format photography, they love it! In fact, there is a HUGE photo festival every year in China that thousands of people attend. I also understand that they are producing some beautiful work, but those outside China have a difficult time seeing it as there is little access to outside markets and the support structure is not there yet.

I think America has had a very good internal support structure for photography that began with Kodak ( from the consumer side) and Alfred Stiegletz ( might as well begin at the beginning for fine art). The large museums, schools, galleries, publishing houses, magazines, etc. have all been supporters of photography and LF Fine Art has benefited from this. America has always used photography and images to promote its products,ideas, philosophy and attitudes. We are an image nation.

Also, remember that Kodak is an American company and photography really took off here as a consumer product. Kodak made photography a reality for millions of American people and the support structure they set up to make the products available helped drive the American love of photography. It was only a matter of time that artistic minded people would begin to take the new and available products from the mass market and use them to create "art".

Photography has been a part of American lives for a hundred or more years.

"Fine Art" photography was probably an outgrowth from this American love of the image. Thanks to Stiegletz and others, gallery owners realized there was a market for beautiful images and there was money to be made. As demand increased, more and more "artistic" photographers began to understand that they could make a decent living as a full time photographer ( suplemented with some commerical work, teaching workshops,e tc.). Major museums like the Museum of Modern Art adopted photography as a fine art early in the 20th century which further drove the desire of some photographers to create fine art images. Adams helped create a "fine art" market as his work was admired and loved by millions of people and his work was affordable to many. Even today, work from major photographic artists is still "affordable" as compared to other forms of fine art. So this has helped drive market demand and supply.

I think there are MANY great LF photographers around the world, many very well known ( see Morgan's lsit above). If the US has produced more, in my opinion it is an outgrowth of access to market, support structure, population size, product availability, access to places to photograph and a general acceptance of photography as art in our society.

The internet has made the access for other artist around the world to the US market much easier, in fact, I find a new artist almost every week from other countries whose work I truely appreciate.

One of my best friends is a photographer by the name of Wolfgang Sulzer who is an Austrian born photographer living and working in Brazil! ( www.wolfgangsulzer.com) The internet has allowed Wolfgang to show his work outside the very small market in Brazil.

Well, heck, didn't mean to write this much.

Thanks again for the excellent post Ian.

www.ericbiggerstaff.com

[Steven Barall]

America is an expansive place and Americans are an inquisitive people, explorers. You have to recognize that one reason that some people begin to be photographers is due to an inqusitive nature, a desire to explore the world around them. Photography as an instrument or tool is one of those things that can help people make sense of it all.

In America we don't have thousand year old buildings or Apian Ways. Our mountains are not described in the bible and we've no structures visible from outer space. Our ancient-ness is in the rocks and trees, our natural history is our heritage in many ways. It's this expansiveness, the wanting to look outside that I think naturally leads so many to photography and large format photography especially because of it's link to our more recent social past, our American history.

Discovery comes from questions and I think that the big upside down and backwards image on the ground glass is, for some, the statement of a question. The print may or may not be THE answer but it certainly can be AN answer, or atleast an answer that leads to the next question. That's why there's more than one photo.

What a great and interesting question. Thank you so much.

[tim atherton]

"Walter hit on an interesting note about China.

It is my understanding that China is absolutely nuts about large format photography, they love it! In fact, there is a HUGE photo festival every year in China that thousands of people attend. I also understand that they are producing some beautiful work, but those outside China have a difficult time seeing it as there is little access to outside markets and the support structure is not there yet. "

Joerg on his photography blog even has a category for contemporary Chinese photographers now as he was coming across so many

http://www.jmcolberg.com/weblog/archives/cat_contemporary_chinese_photography.html

[tim atherton]

"and we've no structures visible from outer space"

hmm - West Edmonton Mall is - that's our N American legacy... :-)

[Graham Patterson]

Although I used 4x5 in the UK off and on for college and work, I never had a realistic expectation of getting my own. When I moved to California, a friend gave me her 4x5 enlarger when I set up my darkroom. That started ideas 8-) I think 4x5 equipment is more prevalent here - I had no trouble finding everything I needed at an acceptable cost. It would have been harder in the UK.

I also think that the US population in general likes larger things, prints included, which is where the larger formats score. There may also be an element of large format cameras being part of the romanticised westward expansion in the 1800s. It is a short history, and it sticks.

Whether there is really a difference in the proportion of photography done in different formats by geographical region is probably a question that cannot be answered - even what is published may show a bias on the part of the publisher.

I think it is one of the quirks that makes the world an interesting place.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

As a foreign born who later became an US citizen I think I have a better perspective on this. I noticed 3 very important factors for this, which apply not only to photography but to all activities IMO.

One you have opportunity. In the US since childhood people are encouraged to develop interests outside their school work, it does not matter if this is science, art, sports, etc. Schools always have organized activities outside their curriculum.

Second, disposable income. Americans, regardless of how much they bitch about takes, IMO have a perfect balance between social contribution and disposable income. In Europe taxes are outrageous (which of course provides for some services non existent in the US, but this is another topic), in other countries like Mexico for example, the middle class is small compared to the total population and they live mostly from pay check to pay check, there is no room to buy even a cheap LF camera, add to this the import taxes and it becomes prohibitive.

Third is mind set, since childhood Americans are told that anything is possible if they apply themselves. This turns into a positive attitude where people try to find ways to do things, instead of finding ways not to do things. Unless you live in a foreign country you cannot understand how important this is. Let me use Mexico as an example again. If I have a problem with a service or item and I go to a store to complain, here the first thing I hear is "you cannot return it", "we cannot do this", "we dont have it" etc. You have to fight and ask to talk to ever increasing people in authority to get what you want. This represents an incredible waste of time and resources. In contrast in the US you have a problems and 8 times out of 10 you find that people are genuinely interested on helping and solving the problems. While this has changed somewhat in the last few years, it is still a prevalent attitude that reflects in personal behavior.

Anyhow, this is my take.... :)

[David G. Gagnon]

Could it be because the US made most of the LF cameras?

[George Stewart]

I see it as, the more socialist (the government robbing some people to give it to others) a country, the less tendancy for luxury items (like a LF camera) to make it to the general public and even students. As a result, everything costs more as people try to grasp for all the money they can. While America is certainly a socialist (medicare, medicaid, unemployement, welfare and social security, etc.) country, it isn't to the degree of other nations, especially those in Europe. The bottom line is that it is the type of government that either allows or disallows luxury for it people.

[CXC]

I think Europeans are more interested in keeping up with the technological curve, even than Americans, and possibly LF seems too old-fashioned. To this Californian it also seems old-fashioned, but to me this is a GOOD thing.

[giancatarina]

Could it be because the US made most of the LF cameras?
arca swiss (france), sinar (swiss), linhof (germany), Toyo... Japan !

There's a lot of people that are using LF in europe, but nowadays is getting more and more difficult...
Considering the cost of process, the average price in france for an E6, is far more superior than in US
in 8x10 it's 8 euro excluding taxes !

But i have a question :
Why in the US, people always think they are the best without knowing what others produce ?
"European that the US has produced the vast majority, if not all of the renowned, esteemed large format photographers. I'm sure I needn't catalogue them here but my list at least doesn't include anyone from outside of north America."
i don't want to be rude but, how can you say that ? ignorance maybe ? very strange !!!

The most important LF photographers in the history are from everywhere, and a lot of them from germany (i'm not german!) !

Please take the time to learn about all the photographers mention, you will spend a great time !

Enjoy the difference !

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Well, I find the discussion interesting. I did not really want to take part to it at the beginning but eventually I'm posting this short essay on what I think as a amateur looking to the emerging use of LF by amateurs in France. This is a clear departure from the original question addressing the existence of famous and renowned fine art photographers using LF.

Among __amateurs__, LF photography in Europe was certainly not developed at all until the end of the XX-st century. France being probably one of the worst places due to a horrifying 33% sales tax of photographic equipement in the seventies and eighties. The 33% sales tax was also applied to luxury good and music vinyl records, a true scandal. Moreover customs barriers and little competition between European dealers meant high prices. Thess times are over now. But the UK and Germany have always been a much stronger market for medium and large format photography, other Europeans could have a different point of view.

Among __professionals___. on the contrary, LF photography was the rule for studio, fashion, industry, etc.. and not really visible from the large public. For the simple reasons that __all__ work done for studio, fashion and industry was done with a LF camera, their was no need to advertise 'made wth a LF camera' ;-).
Robert Doisneau worked with 18x24cm and 13x18cm cameras as a professional at the beginning of his career, his Rolleiflex was only for his personnal projets. The parisian Harcourt studio used 'retoucheable' 18x24 film size for portrait, to quote only a few examples. So LF existed of course but for professionals only. LF equipement was the workhorse like everywhere in the world.

Again in France, the aura of photojournalism and small-format cameras, with some famous photo press agencies has probably contributed to hide most of the fine art work done in large format for decades. In short, the equation was : photo = photo-journalism. The motto was, following Cartier Bresson : "the decisive moment" (l'instant décisif).

Dan Fromm mentions some of our French web sites
www.galerie-photo.com (http://www.galerie-photo.com) and
www.galerie-photo.info (http://www.galerie-photo.info)
dedicated to MF and LF photography ; they are actually a completely new "phenomenon" due to the conjuction of affordable LF equipment dumped by professionals plus the Internet link that helps to create a small community of otherwise eccentric and isolated individuals. Germany has several active LF communities on the Internet, for example :
www.grossformatfotografie.de (http://www.grossformatfotografie.de)

Another idea is the existence or non-existence of a market for fine-art photography. Again my feeling for France is that although the country is credited with the invention of photography, fine art photographs did not represent a market, again things being different in Germany and Switzerland for example. In Switzerland my understanding is that there are more collectors to buy fine art photography than in France. A Swiss friend coming to France for a one-day informal LF photography get-together had his prints blocked by the Swiss customs as potentially unauthorized export of fine art. He was amazed and upset to discover this. I would have never though of such a thing for my prints !! But his images were probably outstanding, not mine ;-);-)

An idea already mentioned favour of LF equipment among amateurs is simply practical and cultural : Northern American citizen enjoy a lot of space, their homes are big, so are their home appliances (compare the volume of an average French washing machine or fridge with their Northern American counterpart ;-). So Northern American photographers have nothing against huge and bulky equipement. From a cultural point of view, this could make sense.

However the argument is weakened if you compare to Japan where apartments are even smaller than in Europe, where space is so scarce that small cars or no car at all for the family are the rule, neverthelsss large format photography has always been well represented and well received in the Archipel. I know from a photographer friend married to a Japanese lady that all Japananese schools of photography continue to put the emphasis on large format cameras in their courses, whereas in France I doubt that the art of setting a Scheimplug on a 8"x10" will continue to be the basics in schools.

Another idea already mentioned is is related to the economical context of Europe since the end of WW-II. After being split into two parts, things have changed very positively for Europe since the end of the Cold War. And not only for the supply of fine black and white films and papers ;-) With a unified market of more than 300 million inhabitants and some good companies manufacturing the whole range of LF equipment and consumables (except may be LF colour film, where the supply is reduced no to 2 non-European companies) I am expecting European amateurs and professionals to bring their interest back to LF photography, since a more open Europe means more exchanges and a stimulation for better images, more cultural life, etc...

I am expecting a lot from Eastern Europe Photographers a soon as money will steadily flow in their pockets... which might take some time, tough. But even now it is quite difficult for a Western European photographer to make a living only on large format work... most professionals I have met that still use their LF gear do it for their personal projects or to demonstrate to their clients their expertise in producing fine images ; eventualy the contract will be signed on a digital-only basis...

[tim atherton]

"Could it be because the US made most of the LF cameras?"

You mean like Linhof, Horseman, Wista, Toyo, Gandolfi, Plaubel, Agfa, Goerz, MPP, Sinar, Arca, Ensign, Sanderson, Sutton, Hasemi, Iha, Raja, Gaumont, Jonte and many many more

At one time in Britain alone there were numerous LF camera manufacturers sending their cameras to customers all over the globe documenting the Empire. Similarly in Japan there probably close to a dozen or more different LF manufacturers at one time

[Stan. Laurenson-Batten]

To answer the question succintly.
It is because the American is so efficient at promoting itself as the best, bigger and better, often to the detriment of other more worthy contenders.

[Richard Schlesinger]

Might I suggest that perhaps the view that more (most? whatever) LF photographers are American may be a bit myopic. We (Americans) are notorious for our provinciality - we don't learn languages other than english (and that much of the time not very well) and we we don't often look beyond the collective ends of our noses. Many large format photographers of other than american origin have been mentioned above - Atget, Sugimoto, etc. etc. I think the idea that we are preeminent in LF photography is just plain mistaken. But all the postings have been interesting!

[Marko]

Jorge: As a foreign born who later became an US citizen I think I have a better perspective on this. I noticed 3 very important factors for this, which apply not only to photography but to all activities IMO.

...

... opportunity

... disposable income

... mind set

Right on, Jorge. As for the main reason for the difference, I would put mindset first. There are plenty of very good photographers, LF or not, everywhere, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, Mediterranean, Russia, China, India, Japan.

Photography itself was invented in Europe, either as a technology or as art, after all.

One could argue that there is plenty of disposable income to go around, at least in some parts of Europe, especially Scandinavia and Finland, or Japan. And opportunity shouldn't be far behind either. The main difference between the U.S. and the rest of the world is the American propensity for self-marketing, to put it bluntly. While being outspoken, especially about oneself, is considered a major lack of manners in Finland, for example, it is highly encouraged in the U.S.

While I have no desire to argue about social models, I think things are pretty clear cut when it comes to the business model. Art is art, but name (or brand) recognition is business first, artistic merits nonwhitstanding.

There are other factors, like the sheer number of publications, language barrier, and also education level. All put together, it is much more likely that an average European will have heard about a number of American photographers than it is for the average American to have heard of Russian, Finnish or Chinese phtotoghers. And that, IMO, is a function of education and behavoural norms much more than it is a reflection of the actual proportion on the ground.

Regards,

[Petr Hartvich]

Hi to all, though I am newcomer to LF hope you will find my opinion useful.
Prices of used LF outfits are quite okay (I guess it’s also valid for Slovakia, Poland, Slovenia, Hungary) I think that main reasons are as follows:
-Educational gap because of main percentage of LF literature and websites are in english only and language knowledge is not so common-how to start without any elementar know-how?
-Quite expensive is whatever other after shoot, developing, scanning, printing..., also prices and availability of LF sheets are not ideal, e.g. Fuji Quickloads are not available in Czechia at all.
-There is no or too small market for LF fine art prints-as far as I know in my country is one landscape LF professional. His website is very very poor and in czech only though his new prints are amazing (Martin Milfort, http://www.milfort.cz/). Medium format photographers are diferent cup of tea (see for example great Ladislav Kamarad‘s website, http://www.wild-landscape.com/)

I can compare Emre with myself:
I am 30 years old LF hobbyist, living in the Czech Republic in town with a population of 100,000, there are two or three photolabs which do E6 processing, 135 format only. Transparency sheets are available via internet or I have to go 100 miles to Prague to one of two shops with sheets in stock but Quickloads I have to order abroad. Some labs there do sheet film E6 processing. Cost of 4x5 sheet E6 developing is about $3.5 Best way is simply home made E6. Drum scanning and high-end large format digital printing is available in Prague and next three or four towns.

Personally I guess main problem for mid/eastern european professionals is no market, for beginners language gap and high cost of processing.
Thanks to Morgan for placing Josef Sudek's name. Sorry if my english is indistinct.
Best wishes from the heart of Europe

Petr

[Walt Calahan]

When Rome was an Empire, the known world's art scene was dominated by Roman artists (who took from the Greeks).

When the Roman Catholic Church was an Empire (culturally controlling Europe), the world's art scene was dominated by artist who were commissioned by the Church.

The Enlightment of Arab Culture before the European Renaissance saw their artist dominate.

When English, Franch and Spanish Empires ruled or competed in the world, whose art did we see?

The Chinese and Japanese Empires dominated their worlds.

The American Empire came into full at the end of World War II, and has cast a long shadow on everything else - from Hollywood to LF.

The European Union and China are changing the world. America's power isn't forever. As cultural centers shift from New York to elsewhere, the artist (LF included) from these "elsewhere" capitals will influence the world.

[paulr]

Interesting comments on the cultural conditions, Jorge,

Emmanuel raises an interesting distinction between the different groups of people doing photography .. I suspect that in the U.S., a large number of the people using big cameras are hobbyists--and among these, it seems to me that a lot are influence primarily by early 20th century American photographers--A. Adams, Weston, Strand, etc. etc...

For reasons that were likely cultural ones 70 years ago, this core tradition in our country became tied to a big camera esthetic. People in Europe and Asia are much less likely to feel the influence of American Modernism. In Europe, for example, Modernism had a completely different flavor. It was much more influenced by the Avante Garde in painting and design, and was driven by users of all different kinds of cameras. But the hand camera seemed to have a place of special importance (I'm thinking of artists like Kertesz, Cartier Bresson, and even Lartigue).

[QT Luong]

There are just more large format photographers in North America than in Europe (two entitities of
comparable importance), so it's not surprising that there are more accomplished LF photographers,
even if Europe has produced a number of outstanding LF photographers.

As an observation from someone who has lived in Europe and America, I have never seen another LF photographer in person in Europe. I see quite a few of them in America. Articles about LF and images taken with LF can be seen in magazines such as Popular Photography, Outdoor Photographer, and Shutterbug, just to name a few of the most popular magazines. I have not seen the equivalent over there.

[Terence Spross]

2 points:

Nobody has mentioned Africa: Recently, I was talking to a Pro (on a non-pro vacation) returning from Africa and that was one of his formost comments was the amount of photographers taking portaits and using LF and contact printing. I'm not sure how widespread it is, but from the usual non-tourist area traveling he did, he visited a few villiages were this was the norm. Difficulty and expense in obtaining Polaroid materials caused one of them to switch and at least one village didn't have any electricity which kind of precludes digital.

____

Some American high schools are still teaching B&W conventional photo techniques. My daughters high school (the school is only 5 years old) has a built in darkroom. Another area school surplused its MF cameras a few years ago, but in addition to 35mm is using a LF 4x5 camera a part of the instruction. The (new) instructor did this since there was a budget cut stalling digital equipment and the LF camera had its dust blown off from years ago and is sort of replacing MF in the instruction and the students can't wait to get their turn at it. It used to be the older intructor taught MF, but merely pointed to the LF camera and said that is LF - hands off. Now about 35 students can't wait their turn at using or even borrowing the LF camera. Thats 35 students who know what LF is in just one school.

[Duane Polcou]

Everybody's chasing Ansel.

[Eduardo Aigner]

Perhaps the Americans are not giving necessary attention to the remaining portions of the world.

[David G. Gagnon]

Well, once again what was intended to be a funny has hurt someone's feelings. Sorry about that.

It just seems that there are thousands of Koronas, Universals, Eastmans,Kodaks, Senecas, Deardorffs, Graflex, Agfa-Anscos out there. I wonder if possibly the US did make the most in comparison to any one other country? Just a thought.

DG

[Emre Yildirim]

medform-norm - That's correct, we are actually first generation (my mother's side is Bulgarian). The move would've been impossible if both of my parents didn't have PhDs. That said, even being upper-middle class immigrants in Germany (both of my parents had good paying jobs) I still don't think I would've had the same kind of opportunities that I have here.

[Emrehan Zeybekoglu]

While I agree with many of the statements above, let me indicate that this probably has to do with the availability of equipment in the first place. The US is a place where photo equipment is relatively more affordable than it is in Europe. Taxes are obviously much lower in the States, and there is a lot of material circulating in the second-hand market as well. As long as you're part of the middle class, you can afford such toys.

Secondly, the US has the most advanced capitalist society where consumerism and consequently advertisement and various other forms of demand for image-making are the greatest.

Third, there are many non-American LF photographers whose names do not pop up in the Anglophone media simply because of lack of familiarity. For example, Bülent Ozgören, Kamil Firat, Shinzo Maeda, or Haruto Maeda and many others some of whom are already pointed out above are excellent LF photographers.

I think one other characteristic that Americans have is that they like to announce what they do or who they are. This clearly is not the case with everyone else in the world. Aggressive marketing is typically American, I think - even in the case of personal artistic activity.

Some of the greatest photographers of the late 19th century-early 20th century lived in Istanbul, the capital of the Ottoman Empire at the time. Those people were renowned throughout Europe and the Middle East. Istanbul was quite a center of attraction until WWI, and we also know that there were even cameras being made in Istanbul. However, the tradition did not continue because of the deteriorating economic conditions and the political turmoil. It is a pity that many Western history books fail to give credit to those who did marvellous work at the time.

An African photographer may be an excellent artist but unless he has the powers to advertise himself or finds the means to put out a book, noone in the West will ever hear of his name. The economic conditions, or more blatantly, the market reality dictates where you stand in the world.

Another point could be made about the language factor. In today's world, over 70% of all scholarly publications are put out in English. If you are not part of the English-speaking world, you are not heard globally. Many academics the world over raise important points, develop respectable theories in various fields; however, unless they publish in English or unless they are cited by English-speaking colleagues, they don't get to be known in the Anglosaxon world. There is probably a parallelism with LF photography here.

Also, I know that there are photographers who use LF cameras without making a big deal out of this. It is just the way they do their work. So, there are several economic and cultural factors one should consider in order to answer the original question. However, it would be interesting to conduct a serious research into this.

Have I shed any light on the question?

E. Zeybekoglu

[Jon_6364]

I think some people are conflating two different things here: the seeming preponderance of Americans among the world's more famous LF photographers, and the popularity of LF in the US.

As for the second question, does anyone have comparative data about the sales of LF film (or cameras) in different countries? I certainly saw a lot of LF equipment being sold (and used!) when I lived in Japan.

Re the first question, it's easy to think the US dominates everything -- witness NBC's appalling Olympic coverage.

[Alex Hawley]

If there is anything to this idea, I think two of Jorge’s points are most germane:

“In the US since childhood people are encouraged to develop interests outside their school work, it does not matter if this is science, art, sports, etc. Schools always have organized activities outside their curriculum.”

Photography has been offered as an elective course in US High Schools for many, many years. There’s no pretense made the course being solely for vocational training. Rather, it is offered as something that brings enjoyment as well as the potential for a vocational career. I think though that one would be hard pressed to find many high schools that have view cameras available for student use. Maybe an old Graflex or two, but not much beyond that. Still, some basic training and stimulation for the interest is offered across the entire population.

“-mind set, since childhood Americans are told that anything is possible if they apply themselves. This turns into a positive attitude where people try to find ways to do things, instead of finding ways not to do things.”

It has always seemed to me that many of the European societies concentrate on some perceived “proper” way of doing something. Along with this is an inhibition against doing something outside one’s “proper” role in the society. Large Format remains the domain of the seriously interested photographer. So therefore, appears that many societies do not see it as being a valid pursuit without the “proper” training and education.

As for me, I don’t give a Flyin’ F about all the above social BS nor pursuits of St. Ansel. I just wanted to make the best photographs I could on a very limited budget and with very basic technology. Large Format provides me the means of doing that to the best of my ability and in fact, has improved my ability far more that any super-wham-a-dyne full-auto 35mm machine gun ever did. Never took any educational classes in it either.

[Kirk Gittings]

Sorry, but it comes from the landscape and is about the landscape.

By mid-twentieth century the US had fostered two important and unique art movements that had defined an identifiable US aesthetic to the rest of the world. These movements were the first that flourished on native soil rather than copying Europe. These two movements were Abstract Expressionism in painting and the LF aesthetic of the F64 group. Each of these movements were based in and dominated by interpretations of the American landscape. Each of these movements descend from the topographic painting and photographic surveys of the previous century documenting the American West. We still live in that landscape and hold dear (if unconsciously) the predilictions of our forerunners.

LF is not just a technique here. It is a statement, a way of being, a part of the national artistic identity.

[Alex Hawley]

I think that's also a big factor Kirk. I didn't go there because some have thought its based on Ansel-wannabees, but its really not. Its about the land and all its wonderment and all that goes with it.

This brings up another paradox on the subject that has been baffling me. Why don't we see more work coming from Russia these days? Their land is just as fascinating as ours is and even more expansive. They have all the technology, training, talent, and photo tradition we have. Their artistic traditions are just as great as anyone elses. But not a whole lot of visibility here in the US. What a fascinating place it would be to explore with LF or ULF. Where are the Russians?

[Kirk Gittings]

Alex,
Plus there is a rich tradition of exploatory anthropological expeditions from Russia that photographically documented all along the Silk Road. But it is a tradition that has largely been forgotten in Russia. A friend of mine is doing her dissertation on this very subject.

[Oren Grad]

Kirk, that's a really interesting observation. And I do think that it resonates to this day. We can go round and round about Ansel vs Robert, but each in his own way was/is coming to terms with the land.

[Clay Turtle]

A lot of interesting responses but I would have to note that Europeans developed for photography was around so they have more of a cultural bias toward non-photographic mediums. The US developed and came into its own with industrialization and the advent of photography. The brownie & other cameras made portraits accessible to more (lower income) people as well as the printing industries, you could say we grew up with photography as a new and exciting means of seeing distant places which the average person would probably never see otherwise. While Europe for centuries of painting, we had photographs which were cheaper & readily reproduced.

LF simply flourished because of limitations technology, even with the advent of celluloid film most cameras would still be class as medium format.

[Ian_5357]

Hi

I didn't expect such a response and there's too much for individual answers. Thanks very much indeed: you have piqued my interest and forced me to challenge my own perceptions. Some comments from my own perspective:

At last, a posterboy! Alas, for the wrong thing... Anglophonic limitations have no doubt influenced my discovery of the photographic map; which is perverse as I shouldn't need the words to look at the photos. However, take for example the site www.grossformatfotografie.de: I clicked all the links but couldn't find the pictures! Perhaps they're not there but chastened I will persevere with non-English sites in future.

Some of the names of the non-US photographers are new to me. I will follow up on these leads and perhaps revise my "world view" with new knowledge. At first glance, I was especially impressed by some of the work of the Chinese photographers found on Joerg's blog.

Perhaps personal taste is also a factor: I happen to enjoy the work of some of the US greats and therefore associate eminance with that continent more than others.

Interesting points about costs and availability: my country's recent EU membership has removed a great wedge of import taxation from photo equipment and brought LF gear into my price range. On the other hand, I have problems getting things as basic as 120 B+W film and its developer, as they're not normally stocked anywhere in the country! I cannot blame them: I'm not certain but I feel like the only person in the whole place not using a digital point and shoot, so why should they keep stuff on their shelves for me. (Thanks to all relaible suppliers selling via the internet - I love you!)

One last comment that comes to my mind whilst reading your thoughts: photography represents such a small segment of cultural history that we may be too close in time to judge any real geographic predominance. Perhaps there was someone in the 17th century who once asked why the Dutch produced all the renowned, esteemed portait painters? Perhaps, as was mentioned above, we will in the future ask why China produces all the LF photographers? In a way, and without wishing to give offence, I hope so.

[jj_4045]

As a french person living in Germany and having studied in the USA for a while, I would back up both Emmanuel and Kirk´s comments. I thinks is a matter of which photograph inffluenced the self representation of the country in the past (Cartier Bresson vs. O´Sullivan, for example).
I think there a (for me at least) typical American cultural /litterary tradition which is playing a role here, I don´t quite know anymore how it is called but is associated with the work of Ralph Emerson Waldo and to a less extent to that of Thoreau and Whalt Whitman: the idea that living in the nature, observing the nature is a spiritual experience, can possibly put you in contact with the spirit of a place or people. Observation and being there can be a quite religious experience.
To me that´s something strong both in large format photography and american culture and that is something that does not happen naturally in Europe (not since the romantic movement).
Best regards,

JJ

[Christopher Nisperos]

gps said:

"Why is it that in Europe there is (and always was) far more widespread photographic culture of 35 mm cameras both in manufacturing (far more excellent than in US) and in 35 mm photography?"

Emmanuel Bigler said:

"Again in France, the aura of photojournalism and small-format cameras, with some famous photo press agencies has probably contributed to hide most of the fine art work done in large format for decades. In short, the equation was : photo = photo-journalism. The motto was, following Cartier Bresson : "the decisive moment" (l'instant décisif). "

I say:

I think that gps and Emmanuel have hit the nail on the head. As an ex-Ansel groupie when I arrived in Paris some time ago, I naively tried to organize a zone system/large format workshop in Paris. Initially, I had asked Al Weber --"If you ever return to Europe (he'd done extensive architectural photography in Finland) -- would you be willing to lead such a workshop?"

He said sure, and we talked about it from time to time over several years. At the same time, I tried to drum-up interest in such a workshop but I was receiving a rough education. I learned about the great abyss of mentalities between the LF camp (zonies or not) and photojournalists --particularly French reporters. The typical French reporter-photographer --even when he prints his own work-- doesn't have the same print aesthetic as a "west coast" fine art printer. Plus, there's the attitude expressed by Cartier-Bresson himself about those same west-coasters : "I don't understand these guys -- photographing rocks and trees when the whole world is falling apart" (I believe this was said in the 1950's...not sure).

By the time Al Weber finally came to Europe (in 1999 to speak at the Gruppe V Fine Art symposium in Braunfels, Germany), the dream of him "dropping by" in Paris to do a workshop
was completely shattered, and I was embarrassed that after several years of effort --including speaking to the deputy minister of culture (in charge of Arles) to try to mount a corresponding exhibit... AND even after obtaining sponsorship committments from Kodak, Polaroid and Hasselblad, I couldn't find a single person to sign-up. I ended up with egg on my face and, like Ian, didn't understand why large format wasn't as popular in Europe as in my sunny California.

To return to the thread question -- and to respond to Cartier-Bresson's innane (IMHO) insinuation that there is only one "valid" type of subject matter for photography-- I believe that it's simply a matter of people photographing the things which are around them, and which ache to be photographed. If you live in a city, you photograph the city. If you live in the country, you photograph the country.

In Europe --historically--, the unavoidably obvious subject matter has tended to be people oriented: war and revolution. Small cameras are better for this, unless you can focus a tripoded camera while bullets whiz by. Plus, after WWII, film was rare and expensive--almost a luxury item (even Cartier-Bresson is said to have bought film "ends" from the local movie studio after the war, and loaded it into cassettes himself). Large format film, if it could be found, wasn't a purchase to be taken lightly (still isn't!). Lastly, the space considerations behind using large format: Don't forget, the average European kid doesn't have a garage or a "rumpus room"! (OK, Weston had his shack ... but his subject, the beach, was just down the street!). The average Paris apartment tends to have as much floor space as a big sail boat (not including the deck). I'm sure this aspect differs, city-to-city, but in any case, it's certain that you won't easily find the same surface-areas here as in the U.S.

Speaking again about mentality in regard to the French photojournalist--(and I admit that this is a stereotype) the priority is for content over form. It seems to be more important to work fast, get the picture and then deal with the problems later (or-- in pre-digital times-- let your printer deal with the problems. That's why France has had some of the best printers in the world .. eventhough many labs systematically pushed every roll they developed!). I even know a few photographers who consider it blasphemy to think in advance about how a print might look! In all fairness, I would stress that I now also know several very good large format photographers
here in France .. many are right here on the popular LF forums (Christian Nze, Guillaume Zuilli, Henri Peyre, et al)!

By comparison, in the U.S., some of the most "unavoidably obvious" subject matter is big, wide open spaces --and old barns . . . because we HAVE them! ... and a lot of them. For these kinds of photographs, a view camera tends to correspond better to the job (and tends be more fun than a Leica, I guess). Plus, many of us learned to print FIRST in a darkroom with family negatives, and then --SECOND, learned to shoot. Lastly, we have the space to use and store all the stuff.

Back to Emmanuel's comment about large-format fine-art photography being "hidden" in Europe for years, I think that this is no longer so true for Germany, England, Norway, Sweden, Spain, and some others, but speaking again for France, there is an unfortunate tunnel vision with regard to things not French. The Cartier-Bresson influence reigns, and holds the reins.

Once, while trying to effectuate an exhibition of Adams in France (he's never been exhibited here by the government.. yet he helped to establish --in fact, he SAVED from oblivion --the Arles festival! A fine thank you.. whether or not you like his work!) I had the occasion to speak with the deputy minister of culture (photography section) on the phone. She had complete scorn for Adams, labeling him as "ringard" (French for "corny"). Later, I found out from Jean Dieuzaide, an Arles co-founder, that it was in fact thanks to Arles --and therefore, Adams -- that this same women had obtained her job.

To answer Ian Hay's question (whew, finally! right?): The talent is definitely here in Europe. It's just that the interest isn't as much as in the U.S., that's all.

[Kirk Gittings]

Oren,

"We can go round and round about Ansel vs Robert, but each in his own way was/is coming to terms with the land."

As we all do and as Americans, working in a strong tradition, the weapon of choice is LF.

It is not unlike when I used to hunt ducks. Though I had a new semi auto shotgun, I always reached for my fathers old double barreled LC Smith.

[tim atherton]

"As an observation from someone who has lived in Europe and America, I have never seen another LF photographer in person in Europe."

and

"In Europe --historically--, the unavoidably obvious subject matter has tended to be people oriented: war and revolution. Small cameras are better for this, unless you can focus a tripoded camera while bullets whiz by. Plus, after WWII, film was rare and expensive--almost a luxury item (even Cartier-Bresson is said to have bought film "ends" from the local movie studio after the war, and loaded it into cassettes himself). Large format film, if it could be found, wasn't a purchase to be taken lightly (still isn't!). Lastly, the space considerations behind using large format: Don't forget, the average European kid doesn't have a garage or a "rumpus room"! (OK, Weston had his shack ... but his subject, the beach, was just down the street!). The average Paris apartment tends to have as much floor space as a big sail boat (not including the deck). I'm sure this aspect differs, city-to-city, but in any case, it's certain that you won't easily find the same surface-areas here as in the U.S."

I'd have to say things are (or at least were) a little different in Great Britain from my own experience.

First Ansel, Weston et al have had a certain amount of influence on b&w photography in general, as well as LF.

Secondly, I think I came across more LF photographers in the UK than I've come across in N America - living on the edge of Exmoor I came across several LF photographers whenever I was out and about in various parts of Devon. The same along the Sussex coast - photographers working along the coastline.

Most of the LF photographers I knew were aware of (and possibly influenced in different ways by) a line of tradition that ran from the earliest days of Fox Talbot, through the likes of Evans (Frederick), Sutcliffe and others, through to the great expedition photographic surveys in India and China or with the likes of Fenton or Francis Frith in Egypt and Palestine. It was alive and continuous tradition in many ways

(and as for France - don't forget probably THE greatest LF photogrpaher of all time - Atget - whose influnece was in a way counter to that of the western topogrpahers - through Evans to Winogrand, Frank and Friedlander et al even if he doesn't seem to have insired French LF photogrpahers as much)

[Steve Hamley]

Wonderful thread with lots of interesting thoughts.

I might add that the answer to why "we" (US) produced many LF photographers may be quite unrelated to why any other country did not, and I think answers to both questions are captured in the thread.

Since no one else has mentioned it, landscape photography in the tradition of Adams and Weston obviously require some degree of mobility to build a representative body of work. This mobility would have been impossible for some years in the first half of the 20th century in Europe and Asia because people happened to be shooting at each other.

Steve

[CXC]

When I went to the Paris zoo, I was amazed by the number of people sketching the animals. So many, that it seemed like it was the thing to do. I've never seen anyone sketching the animals at the zoo here in San Francisco. Taking snap shots is the thing to do. Diff'rent strokes...

[mark blackman]

An interesting buch of opinions. Before we call going away not having actually learned anything, anyone got any facts to backup their assertions?

[Kirk Gittings]

Tim,
But Atget was a virtual unknown at his death in 1927. His influence was minimal until his rediscovery by the modernist photographers and critics later on, primarily Americans. He was not part of some grand French tradition until his improtance was singled out by others later on.

[Christopher Nisperos]

I agree with Kirk Gittings' concise reflection ("Sorry, but it comes from the landscape and is about the landscape") Again, I think it's simply a matter of people photographing the things which are around them. If you turned Ian's question around ("Why does Europe seem to produce photojournalists?") this same simplistic answer tends to hold water: "It comes from war and is about war".

I'll throw in another reason I haven't yet noticed in this thread for why the U.S. might "produce" more LF photographers --or Europe, more photojournalists (if that's even true --or matters): cultural tastes and traditions. As I mentioned above, many French people consider landscape photography as corny, for example. Also, studio portraiture as we know it in the
U.S. (high school senior, family portraiture, etc.) is practically inexistant here ("passportraiture", yes!). School portraits are still mainly groups posed in the playground with a chalkboard or letterboard with the class name, as it has been for over 50 years. A newcomer might scratch his head at this .. but that's the tradition. The population (including photographers) prefers it. The same could be said for the question of "LF/landscape/still life" vs "people pictures", I guess.

Lastly, I'd like to apologize to Tim Atherton and UK friends for not including them in comments about Europe. Obviously, the UK has a long and ongoing tradition of large format photography, with stalwarts such as Gandolfi and Ilford helping to keep the flame alive (as long as we help keep THEM alive as well). As you say, Tim, Atget has never been emulated here as Cartier-Bresson has been, for example. There you go.

[tim atherton]

Kirk,

That was my point about Atget and French photographers - though as for discovery by modernists later on - I 'm not sure how much later 1929 is than 1927... So even though virtually (though not quite) unknown in France at his death in 1927, by 1929/30 his work had already hugely influenced the beginning of what was essentially a significant new strand of photography

[tim atherton]

Btw Kirk

"Sorry, but it comes from the landscape and is about the landscape"... etc

I've never seen it put quite that way before or quite as clearly - excellent!

[Randy_5116]

Or perhaps it is just that the US had a lot more media hype concerning photography than other countries. It is kind of like the old debate as to whether crime, etc is actually higher now than 100 years ago, or has the speed of media and the availability of the vast types, just make it the news spread quicker? If the majority of LF'ers were in the US, then why the hell is it that the majority of LF and medium format cameras are produced overseas. Kinda like the Schneider postings about all the "black/grey market" lenses not being legit sold and/or serviced here. If we have the corner on the LF market, then who the hell is buying all those lenses and cameras produced and sold overseas?

[Henry Ambrose]

Kirk wrote:
"These movements were the first that flourished on native soil rather than copying Europe. These two movements were Abstract Expressionism in painting and the LF aesthetic of the F64 group. Each of these movements were based in and dominated by interpretations of the American landscape. Each of these movements descend from the topographic painting and photographic surveys of the previous century documenting the American West. "

I can get the jump from lets say Bierstadt to f64, no big stretch there. Isn't "Clearing Winter Storm" a photograph of a Bierstadt painting? ; >)

But I don't get the Abstract Expressionism linkage to this discussion. Does anyone care to elaborate on that?

And maybe I don't get that early American landscapes didn't derive from European work since the creators were European. We certainly went our own way from that founding but the fruit didn't fall that far from the tree until f64 - yes?

[Kirk Gittings]

Tim,

I am dredging up old memories of lectures from my classes with Beumont Newhall over thirty years ago. I may be off on some dates.

Henry,

By Mid-twentieth Century there were two American Art movements that had influenced Europe. These two represented to many in the art world the arrival of American Art as a mature force. Both were founded in interpretations of the native landscape. There is significance in the parallel development of F64 and Abstract Expressionism. You can see Steiglitz through his gallery and relationship with O'Keefe and the photographers at the center of this dual vortex recognising and promoting both movements simultaneously. It is an absolutely fascinating period crucial to understanding all that has followed.

[tim atherton]

Evans visited with Berenice Abbott in 1929/30 who had just returned to New York with her trunk full of Atget's work and was totally bowled over. Abbott let Evans use her darkroom where - at the same time - she was beginning work on preserving Atget's prints and plates and printing many of the latter.

Even though some others obviously knew of that (I guess it was easier to keep things quiet before the internet and google), in later years Evans claimed not to have come upon Atget until somewhat later on and almost denied to himself the influence it had been on the most formative years of his work.

It was only much later, during his time at Yale I think it was, that he "owned up" to this and said that when he first laid eyes on Atget's work in Abbott's apartment it terrified him and electrified him at the same time - that it confirmed what he was trying to do, but he realised what he was doing wasn't quite as original as he thought.

[medform-norm]

Funny no one ever mentions that Stieglitz, one of the founding fathers of American LF photography, was the son of German immigrants. His inevitable German upbringing will have influenced the way he photographed as much as the landscape around him. And there must have been hoards of German immigrants involved in photography in the States.

Something else: before WWII Germany had a longstanding tradition of landscape photography. Check for instance the not always politically correct publications Das Deutsches Lichtbild. It was filled with landscapes and many of them resonate the American photos from that era. Maybe through its associations with the German nazi regime, this kind of photography became suspect and therefore not practiced to the extent it was in America in the period after the war.

Kirk's remark about the landscape is only true to a certain extent. Europe has landscapes as impressive as the States. However, I think our relation to this landscape differs immensely. I have lived in the States for two years and have noticed that Americans as a people have a much stronger emotional tie to their landscape and nature than we do in Western Europe. However, I have many friends from Eastern Europe who can be as lyrical as Americans about the beauties of their country side. However, until recently, most of them never had the opportunity to express this love, let alone in LF photography.

Stemming from a Western European background I must admit having a hard time understanding why Americans want to photograph to no end dead trees, sweeping hills and valleys, brooks, waterfalls, streamlets, mountain ranges, deserts, etc. etc.. The repetition and the sheer number of such images are mindboggling to me. This indicates (I suspect) that I lack that certain emotional response to these images, which makes it not only bearable, but also pleasurable to be exposed over and over again to basically the same kind of images.

About the comment that European photography 'comes from war and is about war': I don't feel that nails it down. Of course the aftermath of WWII has shaped our societies to a great deal, since it was after all, a major event. It would have been strange if it hadn't influenced our lives. There are wars and wars and WWII was so much more than a war, it was a breaking point in our cultural tradition, in our values and beliefs, in our trust in human judgement, in our sense of right and wrong and also in our sense of aesthetics. Perhaps that is what one sees reflected in the photography from the past decades. Although I must add that things are very different for the present generations of young photographers, for whom the war is a far away memory. After all, landscape photography is very much practiced again by the younger crowd - and appreciated too by the public.

[Henry Ambrose]

Kirk and anyone else who would care to enlighten me:

O'Keefe and American LF photography of course fit, but the connection with Abstract Expressionism other than as part of a time-line I don't see. I do see the huge break between representational and non-representational that Abstract Expressionism made from prior forms.

Apparently I'm missing some details as I see AE as being very, very different from f64 or photography at all. I don't see the common ground other than time and place. Both plants growing in the same garden, but very different plants, like a rose and a daffodil. Whats the connection?

[Walt Calahan]

Any mention of Aaron Siskind yet. http://www.aaronsiskind.org/

And how about Harry Callahan (no relation)? http://www.brown.edu/Facilities/David_Winton_Bell_Gallery/callahan.html

Let's not forget the industrial photography of Margaret Burke White, and her influence on Soviet imagery.

After WWII American photography saw some breaking from the tradition of the f/64 "club" and the western landscape influence of "dead trees, rocks, and romanticized grand vistas."

The eastern world of American photography has kindship with western Europe. The western world of American photography seemed to evolve into a sort of "Arizona Highway" view of the landscape. I don't mean this as a put-down 'cause I subscribe to Arizona Highway and love looking at their style of photography.

The Mississippi River divides American photography in many ways.

More fuel for the fire. HA!

[Mark Sampson]

Henry, I think Kirk's point about "f/64" style photography and Abstract Expressionist painting is that both were "invented" in America and owed little to European styles of art. And certainly the AE painters owe something to Siskind...

[Helcio Tagliolatto]

"I believe that it's simply a matter of people photographing the things which are around them, and which ache to be photographed. If you live in a city, you photograph the city. If you live in the country, you photograph the country."

I agree.
Besides the high level of the postings above, I think that the reason for such a passion for LF in the US resides in the passion for the Land. Try reading "The Machine in the Garden" : the pastoral life and the grandeur of the scenes have enchanted Americans since the very early days. Painters have refused to include in the picture even human elements and artifacts. And so did photographers later, with LF being the most pertinent medium for it

Here in Brazil we had a different approach since the begining, with the human elements being the focus of europeans artists.

But then come the very clear analysis of Emre: the convenience in the US market makes life easier, and LF is not an issue there.

[medform-norm]

"...Abstract Expressionist painting is that both were "invented" in America and owed little to European styles of art."
Uhm....my art history books do succeed in establishing a well founded correlation between European modernist art of the Pre-war era and the American post-war AE art. Perhaps you could delve into "Art in Theory" by Harrison and Wood - or simply think about all the European artist who made New York their second home during and after the war, and certainly did influence the shape of American modern art.

On an off topic tangent: I have heard of another interesting theory (based on arguments and facts) that Abstract Expressionism was pushed on a global level by the CIA as a kind of Pro-American movement to counteract the communistic Realism. If I can find the source for this information, I'll post it. Or maybe someone else knows.

[medform-norm]

Okay, that was easy! Thanks to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_expressionism

including a link to the book about the involvement of the CIA in AE.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

anyone got any facts to backup their assertions?

Sure.
I can add two examples about the prominence of "instant décisif" in France over LF images slowly composed on a tripod ; considering two famous French masters : Jacques-Henri Lartigue and Robert Doisneau. You cannot image two guys so far from each other from a social point of view. Lartigue was the son of a rich family. Doisneau was a typical working-class parisian. Both have worked with large format cameras.

There have been two nice photo exhibitions travelling from town to town in France in 2004 and 2005, both stayed for some time in my hometown.

The first exhibition was dedicated to Lartigue.
bief.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=C.Titre&Tid=10734&E=252 (http://bief.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=C.Titre&Tid=10734&E=252)
If you think that Lartigue is not a LF photographer, then nobody is ;-) since he has used 9x12 and 13x18cm cameras for many of his most famous (early) images. Including the well-known image with oval-shaped automobile wheels (Lartigue used a 9x12 Ica camera with a vertically-travelling focal plane shutter).

As far as I can judge by the selection of images in the exhibition, Lartigue was fascinated by the ability to freeze the movement. He made many sports photographs with a hand-held 13x18 camera before WW-II. You'd be amazed by the sharpness. He gradually moved to smaller format cameras because he apparently had no interest in US-West-Coast (we also have our French West Coast ;-) style of fine art landscape photographs.

Second is Doisneau. An interesting exhibition entitled : "Doisneau's Renault" [years]. An unknown aspect of Doisneau's work.
www.besancon.fr/gallery_files/site_1/346/353/779/dossier_de_presse_doisneau.pdf (http://www.besancon.fr/gallery_files/site_1/346/353/779/dossier_de_presse_doisneau.pdf)
Doisneau was hired in the thirties as an industrial photographer by the Renault car company. On assignment he worked, of course, exclusively with LF cameras. He has produced some very fine LF advertising images that I had never seen before. He mastered the LF technique perfectly like all good professionals at the time. But his interest was documenting the day-to-day life of the workers in the Renault factory. Eventually he was fired from Renault.
And he apparently never considered doing his personnal projects with a LF camera, exactly the opposite of Atget's work, who could not imagine to faithfully record Paris streets & buildings without a LF camera (I think it was a 18x24cm) using the vertical front rise, often beyond the maximum circle allowable by his lenses.
Atget is probably an exception in early XX-st century masters in France.

But closer to us in time we should of course pay tribute to Jean Dieuzaide wo did a substantial part of his fine art work with LF cameras, although a medium format camera was probably his favourite tool. Jean Dieuzaide protested against the possible demise of fine baryt paper at a time when manufacturers claimed that RC was so much better ; his action definitely helped to save the use of fine art baryt papers.. at least in France.

[tim atherton]

"On an off topic tangent: I have heard of another interesting theory (based
on arguments and facts) that Abstract Expressionism was pushed on a global
level by the CIA as a kind of Pro-American movement to counteract the
communistic Realism. If I can find the source for this information, I'll
post it. Or maybe someone else knows."

yes - this is in part so. There is a book on this I think, but I read an interesting couple of articles.

For many years the British Council was the sort of culture arm of British Imperialism abroad - spreading British art an culture throughout the world - but very much above board and blatant in doing so.

If I remember correctly, in the period in question, the CIA was secretly funding travel for Abstract Expressionists (and others) in Europe, funding exhibitions and galleries, commissioning critics to write pieces promoting the work and so on - all through a series of front companies as well as a number of influential individuals within the art world on their payroll.

[Larry Kalajainen]

Interesting discussion. I lived in Europe (France) for ten years, and used 4X5 very little, even though I bought my current rig there: a Wista (rosewood) and three lenses. There was no problem getting new or used equipment, either locally in Paris or by mail order from England or Germany. Materials cost roughly what they do here--- maybe slightly higher on film and paper, but not exorbitantly so. I did sometimes buy film in bulk when back in the U.S. to save a bit, but if I'd had to mail order it, the shipping would have eaten up at the price difference.

I do think the landscape has something to do with it. It's true that Europe has spectacular landscapes too, particularly in the Alps or Pyranees or Tatras. However, the scale of the landscape is nowhere near as vast as the "big sky" country of the American West and Southwest. The geological and climatic conditions are much more similar to the eastern U.S. than to the West. No deserts, for instance. And even when you do get a spectacular landscape, it is never one that is untouched by human presence. There is no wilderness in Europe. Every inch of land has been, or is being, cultivated, and even the great tracts of forest are carefully managed. It is truly a pastoral landscape, without any flavor of wildness that one finds in the American West.

When you think about where large format is most popular here in the States, it is in the West or Southwest. Sure, some of us photograph the Maine coast or the urban vistas of New York City, or still lifes in a studio setting, but even here, I find myself gravitating more toward my medium format gear than to my Wista, and I really do think the landscape has something intangible, but real, to do with that.

Larry

[Kirk Gittings]

"On an off topic tangent: I have heard of another interesting theory (based on arguments and facts) that Abstract Expressionism was pushed on a global level by the CIA as a kind of Pro-American movement to counteract the communistic Realism. If I can find the source for this information, I'll post it. Or maybe someone else knows."

This is absolutely true. The cold war was in part a war of culture. I do not think though that this denies the importance of Abstract Expressionism. It just adds another dimension to its success. All governments market their artists.

[GPS]

"There is no wilderness in Europe". Boy, go to Sweden, Norway, Finland. Don't get lost, though...

[tim atherton]

"There is no wilderness in Europe".

ever been to Iceland...?

[Kirk Gittings]

I think the relevant point is not where there is wilderness, but the historic fact that wilderness is a part of the national character here in the US (even if one never goes there).

[GPS]

So is on Iceland, in Sweden or elsewhere in Scandinavia.

[Paddy Quinn]

I think the relevant point is not where there is wilderness, but the historic fact that wilderness is a part of the national character here in the US (even if one never goes there).

Something all the Nordic nations also claim, along with Canada - a sometime nordic nation (and, in my exporience, Australia as well).

The fact that there apears to be such a relationship between national character and wilderness isn't unique. The particualr nature of the relatioship may or may not be unique (and in many areas I'm not so sure it is) - but it's the nature of it which might be somewhat different

[Ralph Barker]

I agree with both Kirk's statement and Paddy's expansion of it. I think the relationship between a culture and its surroundings is fairly universal. Whether the nature of the surroundings prompts photography that promotes the selection of large format cameras to capture or express that relationship is a separate matter, I suppose.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Since we mentioned Ansel Adams and Jacques-Henri Lartigue I assume that most of us know the 'Making Of' by Saint Ansel and have in mind his portrait of Lartigue.

Saint Ansel was invited to Arles, south of France but except food in the train he felt definitely uncomfortable and suffered from heat. A paradox for somebody who could be considerered as a prominent propagandist of the US South West.

Reading this page I was amazed to learn that Saint Ansel, unlike Saint Brendan who certainly reached Iceland on his curragh and, may be, reached the New World, well, Saint Ansel does not seem to have traveled outside the Fifty States so often.
Strange situation when you consider the distance between Carmel and Denali NP, or between Carmel and Hawai, but did he actually ever travel to continental Europe except for the invitation by Lartigue ?

Strange that he was not inspired by Provence, but Arles is located in a special part of Provence, and probably he had no free time to travel and explore on this occasion.

And as far as deserts are concerned, well Europe cannot compete in terms of dry-hot deserts with other places in the World --at least for today--, but Spain offers a reasonable amount of dry & hot space, enough to make a decent background for some famous Italian "Western" movies ;-);-)

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

"There is no wilderness in Europe".

An interesting question. Sure we could include Svalbard as well.
Traditionally we Europeans used to learn that Europe extends eastbound to the Ural mountains in Russia.
This definitely offers some space available for true wilderness.
A difficult question raised to me by a Californian friend was : are there any real wild forests in Europe, i.e. forests that have never been cropped, re-forested and exploited like French forests for example.
My understanding is, if we do not take Russian and some parts of the Scandinavian forests into account, Poland and central south-central Europe still have some wild forests that have never been cropped. But definitely there is a major difference here with Northern America, at least for Western Europeans, landscape = landscape re-arranged by man and this makes a great impact on how we see the landscape in photography.
If we consider Iceland, wild places where I'm the most impressed there, are not necessarily the absolute Icelandic Wilderness like the top of Vatnajökull glacier, what is fascinating is when you imagine that people have lived in remote places like the North-West fjords for more than thousand years. But so did the Native Americans in their wilderness as well...

[Helcio Tagliolatto]

"Saint Ansel was invited to Arles, south of France but except food in the train he felt definitely uncomfortable and suffered from heat. A paradox for somebody who could be considerered as a prominent propagandist of the US South West."

Emmanuel, the American Southwest climate is VERY different from the South of France.
I can remmember Saint Adams disclaiming the "humid climate and the dullness of the sky" a typical condition of the hot and humid locations.

Even when hot, the skies in the US Southwest are imense.....

[Dan Fromm]

Helcio, it depends on what one means by the Southwest, and when one is there. I remember vividly a day at Enchanted Rock SNA in Texas. Rainy, low ceiling, the air wasn't transmitting light very well at all. Nice diffused subdued illumination and no way to use it.

Cheers,

[Jonathan Brewer]

Google 'contemporary Russian photographers', google search a Russian photographer name Georgi Rosov, whose work with a 'monocle' inspired me to create my own single element lenses, you'll find that issues of format, and availability of gear notwithstanding, Russian photography/Russian photographers have and are producing interesting/exciting/inspirational work, much of it is simply amazing.

Before searching/researching Russian photography, I had no idea of the depth and quality of the work there, it rivals anything produced anywhere, and there's a lot of it. I'm not expert on this, I stumbled onto Georgi Rosov and other excellent Russian photographers when I was researching 'do it yourself' lenses, Russians call these monocles and for many Russians they're commonplace. I been check out this for 2-3yrs, enough to know that the amount of work is staggering.

Again, I'm no expert, but I can assure you that just because folks here don't know about it, doesn't mean the work doesn't exist, once you google enough searches on Russian photographers/contemporary Russian photographers, you'll find work that is endless.

[Jonathan Brewer]

You can see Georgi Rozov's incredible work on his website, www.rozov.ru .......it's high energy, high risk, and most of the time high payoff, Russians are inspired shooters, they shoot everything, all the time, everywhere.

[Bill_1856]

It's one thing to shoot everything in sight. It's quite another to edit out the chaff.

[Jonathan Brewer]

Have you checked out the work of Rozov and other Russian photographers? They shoot everything in sight, and the best of what they shot is as brilliant as anything I've seen anywhere else.

Do you get a keeper evey time you fire the shutter? And if you don't, ..........so what..........if your idea of enjoyment is to shoot everything in sight then you've got the right to do that to regardless of whether you're coming up w/keepers or w/chaff.

[John Bowen]

Since nobody has mentioned this yet, let me suggest that one of the reasons for the large proliferation of LF photographers in the US just might be due to Fred Picker. His Zone VI newsletter was certainly a source of information, education, inspiration and motivation for many a photo hobbyist. It would be interesting to learn just how many copies of the Zone VI newsletter were published. Perhaps Bruce Barlow or Richard Ritter may know.

Later the Zone VI videos probably helped other photo hobbists learn about the wonders of LF photography. I wonder how many copies of those videos exist? Bruce Barlow do you have any idea?

My own personal interest in LF is due to Picker's influence. I was introduced to his newsletters as a college student in 1979 and found that every quarter with the arrival of a new issue, the creative juices received a shot in the arm. View Camera and Lens Works magazine do much the same today (provide some inspiration).

John

[Mark_3632]

AA said in a letter to (I think) Dorthea Lange, that he would travel the world when he was no longer thrilled by what was growing outside his front door. Paraphrased of course.

[Helcio Tagliolatto]

"Since nobody has mentioned this yet, let me suggest that one of the reasons for the large proliferation of LF photographers in the US just might be due to Fred Picker"

Sure.

The tape "Printing with Fred Picker" rescued me.
Although a "difficult person" , Fred's contribution was decisive!

[Kirk Gittings]

I know for myself that Fred made a huige difference. Through his catalogue, books, tapes, equipment packages and newsletter's etc., Fred made getting into LF allot more user friendly.