who has "arrived"?

[Kirk Gittings]

I've been thinking allot recently about my career.

Based on some responses (both on line and email) to recent PR postings of mine, that I have "arrived", I wonder how people would measure that. I know for myself that I do not feel like I have "arrived" even though I have achieved many of the career goals (that were my measurements) I set for myself when I got serious about photography in 1970. None of my goals were ever related to commercial photography, that was always something I did just to pay the bills and that has far exceeded my wildest expectations. Nor were these goals about the internal developement or maturity of my art aesthetic, that is another issue. My goals always were about public career milestones for my artwork. As an example two of those were: teaching at The Art Institute of Chicago (which I have done fro the past 8 summers) and having a solo exhibit at the Museum of Modern Art (which is not even vaguely on the far distant horizon). There were many more, some I have achieved and many I have not. I don't mean this perhaps as crass as it might sound. All serious artists must manage their public careers as well as making art. I know at age 55 if I died tomorrow, I would be very satisfied with what I have accomplished, and maybe that is ultimately all that matters.

I have no idea how he views this. An example to me of someone on this forum who has "arrived" is Chris Jordon. If you look at the international shows and print media credits from the last few years on his resume you see some stunninh accomplishments.

How do you measure having "arrived".

[Bill_1856]

You probably won't know for sure until 50 years after you die.

[chris jordan]

Hi Kirk, interesting question, and thanks for your kind reference to my work. The question of “arrival” is complex because the internal and the external can get confused with each other. One thing I know is that I used to think that there was some particular event that denoted an artist’s official “arrival,” after which that person would feel secure and safe and peaceful in their career. Not so for me, at least so far. A few such events have already happened, and I’m as anxious and stressed-out about the future as ever. In fact, I’m starting to realize that a feeling of safety and security is something to be suspicious of. Now whenever I’m starting to feel more solid with my work, I take that as an indication that I’m probably getting in a rut repeating successes, and had better move on to something new. It’s a difficult truth to hold because of the abiding fear that goes with it, but for me it’s becoming a mantra: As soon as I start feeling secure, that’s my signal to head back out into the storm.

I also wonder if there really is such thing as an external “arrival.” In other words, I think the feeling of having arrived might be a fundamentally internal experience that has little to do with what‘s actually going on out there. Some might feel the feeling of arrival after having their first local show, and others might not feel it after years of amazing accomplishments. But one thing is sure: when it is there, it is always shaky, and could go away again as fast as it came. That’s a risk that we artists take; it’s something that distinguishes our careers from steady reliable employment-type jobs. In other words, the flip-side of the wide-open potential for doing great things, is the wide-open potential for falling flat on our face. Either one could happen anytime, no matter what has happened before that; no amount of “arrival points” will guarantee anything in the future.

The other thing is, I suspect that for me the need to know whether I have arrived is a question that is being asked by my ego. It’s a perfectly human question, of course, and one that we all ask ourselves from time to time, so I don’t judge it harshly. But the ego can work in feisty ways that can be counterproductive to creativity and risk-taking, so I have to be on my toes when my ego speaks up. In that light, one possible response that I might give myself when this question comes up for me, is (with an affectionate smile) “oh, ego, you sweet old insecure thing, calm down dear, you’re doing just fine, now let’s get back to work on what we love…”

With warm regards from Seattle,

~cj

www.chrisjordan.com

[Andre Noble]

Kirk, Chris

Congrats to both. You've both arrived.

[Brian Vuillemenot]

One's "arrival", whether it be in photography or any other art form, can only be appreciated by external observers. We can look at a person's work and accomplishments, and come to the conclusion that they've "arrived", but a true artist never reaches that state. By the time they've reached the goals that were originally set when they started, they have an entirely new set of things to accomplish. It's sort of like a moving conveyer belt that gets steeper and accelerates faster the longer the creative process goes on for...

[Mark Carstens]

From one whose train has barely left the station (at least in terms of my photography), "arrival" as "be(ing) very satisfied with what I have accomplished" suits me. And I would second the argument "that (this) is ultimately all that matters." Then again, maybe this isn't as much an existential question as I am interpreting it.

On the other hand, if "arrival" is all about garnering external validation as the basis for measuring your accomplishments, then you really are at the mercy of the judgments and opinions of others, no matter what level of personal satisfaction you achieve. I'm not sure that this extends what Chris is eluding to into something broader, but within the context of your art, maybe understand the ego-driven component liberates you to pursue your work as you see fit, with no regrets, and no apologies.

Food for thought. Thanks for bringing it up, Kirk.

[Henry Suryo]

Interesting thread and valid points. What does it mean to have "arrived"? Does it mean recognition and acclaim? Having been published and exhibited? Having a most profound effect on people's lives and leaving a legacy? Having a respectable client base and success in the case of professional work? Price of work? Or does it matter externally when all that matters to you, generically speaking, is personal growth, accomplishments and gratification? I think there are too many variables on the arrival plateau, the conditions set forth by the genre of work, your ultimate intentions and purpose, the approach to achieving them, fast track or long term, the variance of standards of measure, just to name a few that come to mind. Certainly, the now revered as the "modern masters of photography" didn't know, and couldn't possibly, that their work would be collected at blue-chip prices in the art market. They just tended to their art with an undying passion as most of us would feel blessed to have. I suspect someone like Atget knew from within that he'd arrived, eventhough his vast body of work was practically unknown in his lifetime. Art for art's sake was probably more of a concern to him than, on the opposite end of the spectrum, his contemporary portrait photographer colleagues who depended on their client approval, perhaps to the extent of sacrificing their notion of aesthetics, in order to prosper.

Me personally, I haven't arrived yet and I'm not certain I want to. I think it might actually be counterproductive for me. It would be more of a drive and incentive for new goals and further accomplishments to feel that I haven't arrived. To always have the inspiration and passion perhaps is more of concern to me for fear of losing them.

Humbly yours, Henry

[Juergen Sattler]

I don't think there is one "Arrival". I would like to think that we arrive all the time - at least that's how I feel about my life. Arrivals do not only happen in artisitc ways, but in such simple things as building a darkroom, mastering your first "wow" print, etc.. Life is a journey and the arrivals are part of that journey, although there is no final arrival, other than death. I personally do not look to the outisde to confirm my arrivals - they are determined by me and nobody else.

[Frank Petronio]

Arrivals take care of themselves. Just keep working.

[Wayne]

As someone used to say, by the time you realize you've arrived you've probably already left again.

[Steven Barall]

You can ring the door bell all day long but you haven't officially arrived until you get invited in. The trick is to be perfectly happy ringing that bell all day long.

[Doug Dolde]

This is not real success.

Real success is only what you take with you when you leave the planet....not your work.

[e]

I like to think that "arriving" is when you are able to work and support yourself through your chosen profession. In other words success in your profession. Another form of arrival is when you are blessed enough to create a work of art that lives beyond you (has a life of it's own) and one that you are proud of but... is somewhat ephemeral and is only an important link in a long chain of events. Another form of arrival is the entrance of pure consciouness where only BS existed before. I was told once that there are 7 levels of arrival on the physical plane for a normal human lifespan. 1. Birth. 2. Awareness of oneself as differentiated from others. 3. Enculturation. 4. Leaving the nest. 5. Entrance of consciousness or not... at about 35 years of age. 6. Diminuation or sickness. What will eventually cause your demise. 7. Death itself ie. the exit. I guess we are always arriving....and arriving... Emile.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

I think the idea of "arriving " is a moving target, it's idea changes as we mature and our expectations change. I think it very much relates to how a person defines themself which in turn helps drive their actions and therefore future. And in any given life, a person may have many "arrivals", being a good parent and watching my children grow into loving, successful adults will be an arrival for me - I hope- one day.

Achieving career goals can be in indication that you are becoming successful in your chosen field, but does it mean you have arrived? Maybe, but no one can answer the question except the person doing the work, there has to be an internal realization that the life they are leading is in some way playing out as hoped for. To me, "arrival" is the internal understanding that what you are doing reinforces and supports the idea of who you ARE as a person, it supports how you define yourself.

Once this self realization occurs, others notice from an external aspect, and they begin to see you as a person to be admired and respected. I don't think external "arrival" can truely happen until the internal realization happens. ( OK so this is getting a bit wacky perhaps).

I think Kirk mentioned this in his post when he states that "I know for myself that I don't feel like I have arrived". I think when a person begins to realize their own self-potential ( in whatever endeavour the choose to particiapte in), and as their confidence increases, then they are on the way to their own personal "arrival", the rest will follow in due time.

This was a great post Kirk, thank you.

[Ed K.]

Ah, Master G asks his neighbors in the cycles in life, is it a test
or has the master now turned his focus inward instead of
to the road ahead? If you don't mind, a few thoughts from
someone who is not in your league -

Arrival is the designation of one point in the journey. It could be
a stop along the way, or the end of the line. The decision to travel
or not from there is hopefully that of the traveler, however the
world keeps turning, the sun rises and the sun sets.

Bask in your well earned-sunshine and fear not the
dark night ahead as it is only natural. The real question
is "what's next, what will you do for the next scene?"
If there is no place to go from here, or no desire to venture
forth, then indeed you have arrived.

In terms of my photo work, I haven't arrived, and probably
won't until my carbon is recycled. Who knows if anyone
will ever care about my work. I'm not sure I'll ever be completely
satisfied, however one arrival will be when I no longer
care what anyone thinks about my work.

It is one's own self that determines true arrivals and
departures of the heart and mind and the longings of those
two intertwined forces. One may make it as easy or difficult
as one desires. One makes the decision that some people's
opinions matter, or that certain goals once achieved are
noteworthy or not. And one makes the decisions as to how
to feel about any of it.

You've done well to be a living artist who is recognized and
valued in his own lifetime, and produced such fine works.
Think of all the artists whose work wasn't appreciated until
after their death. My father was one of those who did not
witness his own success, he arrived about 2 months after his
death as a painter, which was pretty fast. Hope you can make
the most of your wonderful talent while people are watching!

[dan nguyen]

I arrived

I arrived where I am here now,

I started long ago to arrive at...

A place which I don't know where am I,

So I just keep going and going and going..

:-)

[adrian tyler]

when you really really really strip away all the unessecary stuff it only comes down to about three things, for me, friends, family and latterly what you put back into "society".

if photography is going to fit into the last one then i have to produce work that has some kind of integrity, if my work also speaks of my larger concerns then good.

getting it seen and being on the cicuit and all these "arrival" milestones, as chris says are a bit missleading to say the least, when ego gets mixed up with intelegence you are on dangerous terrain. i read somewhre too in an interview with robert adams in which he said that he is not deluded that his work will make things better, given that it is only consumed be well off people who can afford to put his book on their coffe table (or somithing like that).

so i would be wary of the last one.

but you gotta enjoy yourself sometimes!

so good luck!!

[adrian tyler]

here's a good one from rumi:

The world's flattery and hypocrisy
is a sweet morcel:
eat less of it, for it is full of fire.
Its fire is hidden while its taste is manifest,
but it's smoke becomes visible in the end.

[paulr]

I knew I'd arrived a few years ago, when I opened my mail and found a rejection letter to a grant i couldn't remember applying for.

At any rate, I think it's better to be in motion than to arrive.

[GPS]

A rather pitiful arrival that must be tooted by one's own posts. I think pity of those who think they arrived tooting the sad fact to all others.

[Keith Laban]

Gosh, please feel free to shoot me if I ever "arrive". The self doubt, the anticipation, the disappointment, the hope and the fear are the driving force. God forbid that the journey is ever completed.

[mark anderson]

life is a journey, not a destination

[Ben Calwell]

I think I've "arrived" at a place where being an amateur and pleasing myself is Ok. My work has been rejected many more times than it's been accepted. Rejections and/or indifference to your work can really tear a chunk out of your confidence.
But I now just enjoy going out and photographing and not worrying if the work is good enough for View Camera, Lens Work or some museum in the Big Apple.
But I have a plan for a New York City exhibit. On my next trip there, I'm going to take one of my framed photos and display in my hotel room and then take it down when I leave.

[darr]

"life is a journey, not a destination"

it is the journey that matters

[robc]

A friend of mine, who is a landscape architect, built a memorial garden for the police in london. The project was then submitted for an award in the annual "Prime Ministers Better Public Building Awards" scheme. They didn't win but were a finalist. So what does the prime minister know about landscape architecture? Sod all, but it makes a nice sound byte for the Prime Minister to present an award to someone for building a public building . Its notoriety for the winners and finalists and may generate some some sales but somehow I think it would mean more if acclaim were coming from contemporaries in the same field rather than a politican or I have I got it all wrong.

Enjoy it while it lasts.

[Ralph Barker]

Interesting topic, and interesting responses so far.

From my perspective, "arrival" is probably a state best determined by third parties, and one best taken lightly by the subject. Such pronouncements, and public accolades, can have substantial benefit for marketing purposes, if properly used in one's PR (marketing) efforts. But, I agree with your assessment, Kirk - personal satisfaction with one's efforts and accomplishments is probably more germain in the final analysis. Prior to "final analysis" (i.e. death), I also agree with Chris' observations about being cautious about listening too intently to the voice (whether whispered or shouted) of one's own ego. I think we've all seen people who have listened too intently to their own ego, and have come to believe too much in their own (exagerated?) PR - i.e. people who are "legends in their own minds".

[paulr]

i've heard of a few musicians calling their inductions into the rock and roll hall of fame as a death sentence. it's hard to be seen (or to see yourself) as a vital creative force when your head's already on a shelf in the museum.

[Duane Polcou]

Jay Leno: "So how is it dfferent that now you are a big star?"

Vin Diesel: " I used to be the hunter. Now I am the hunted"

I learn all of my life's great lessons from people who's names are petrolem products.

[Henry Friedman]

"Fill your bowl to the brim
and it will spill.
Keep sharpening your knife
and it will blunt.
Chase after money and security
and your heart will never unclench.
Care about people's approval
and you will be their prisoner.

Do your work, then step back.
The only path to serenity."

Lao-tzu

[Brian Sims]

Arrival? I must have missed the train while I was out on the trail with my kids and my camera.

[Guy Tal]

As others noted - it's really a matter of personal perception. I don't know who used the term with you but "you have arrived" are the same words said by Stieglitz to Eliot Porter. Stieglitz initially rejected Porter's work from his gallery and supposedly this influenced Porter to double his efforts and find his photographic "voice".
In this instance the proverbial arrival is about Porter achieving recognition by someone he admired and respected (not to mention Stieglitz held the keys to commercial success in the photography art world in those days, at least in Porter's genre).

So - either define "arrived" for yourself (being widely published? making a full-time living? capturing that once-in-a-lifetime image? being accepted by some high-brow gallery?) and focus your efforts there or, if you're happy with your journey thus far - keep at it and let others worry about semantics.

Guy
Scenic Wild Photography (http://scenicwild.com)

[Jim Galli]

I do know I haven't. I don't expect to know it if I ever do. I'm enjoying the journey immensely and that is all that matters just now. Potential is what keeps the lotto ticket sellers in business. I just keep buying those tickets.

A few years back I sort of "arrived" and folks have been pestering me to do color work again ever since. I'm not interested. So much for the perceived value of "arriving".

[Gary L. Quay]

I believe that its not whether one has "arrived," but your condition, i.e., have you arrived in the train, or under it?

Perhaps, once arriving, a wise person would disembark, stand on the platform and look around for a bit, then choose a new destination and get back onto the train. Resting on one's laurels is bad for both the one and the laurel. I have always found that the journey is always more fun than the destination.

I know that much of this has been said by others, but I just didn't want to let a good metaphor to go to waste.

Good Luck!

[Hugh Sakols]

I arrived on last Saturday. I grabbed my 35mm camera and tripod and walked for at least 5 miles photographing CA newts. They are slippery as all hell! But I was ready for em!!! Maybe I got one. We will see next week when my little film comes back. I certainly wasn't thinking about work or anything other then - darn newts!!!!! I thought this would be easy. Afterwards I came home, and surfed all the photography online forms I could think of - at that I departed!!! Imagine if I caught one of those little suckers with a 5x7 camera and perfect fill flash ----- shitttttt!!!

[Mark Woods]

JJ you're back!

MW

[Raymond Bleesz]

A nice question & nice responses:

I have not arrived although I have asked the question of myself-- I'm still learning & making mistakes----I'm still Socratic in my thinking, and I do not know or perhaps care if I will ever arrive. But my father perhaps taught me a few things. A very simple man from Alsace with no education. He raised a family & put me through school & gave me values. He "worked" with his hands all his life & enjoyed a few pleasures in life & suffered a few as well. His attitude in life was to plod ahead, day to day doing one's very best. I do not think he worried about "arrival". He arrived in my opinion.

Another Alsacian was multitalented,------- pastor, musicologist, medical doctor------- a model for all of us, IMO. He, I believe, was not interested in his "arrival". What he did was for mankind, out of his heart, a Humanist who was not concerned with "arrival" He worked.----Albert Schweitzer.

At Lambaréné, Schweitzer was doctor and surgeon in the hospital, pastor of a congregation, administrator of a village, superintendent of buildings and grounds, writer of scholarly books, commentator on contemporary history, musician, host to countless visitors. The honors he received were numerous, including the Goethe Prize of Frankfurt and honorary doctorates from many universities emphasizing one or another of his achievements. The Nobel Peace Prize for 1952, having been withheld in that year, was given to him on December 10, 1953. With the $33,000 prize money, he started the leprosarium at Lambaréné.

Albert Schweitzer died on September 4, 1965, and was buried at Lambaréné.

[Ellis Vener]

Welcome to the new plateau. If you look carefully , off in the distance you will see the tops of the next range of mountains that your path leads to.

Enjoy the hike.

[Kirk Gittings]

Ellis,

And that is the real point isn't it. Each new award or whatever simply makes getting the next book easier or creates better venues for shows etc.

For me I am already deeply into the next project (the next range!) with my favorite collaborator author VB Price. It is a book for UNM Press and UNM Museum on mythological landscapes. It is due for release and exzhibition in early 2008. I want this to be my finest project to date.

I just simply want to work and make my contribution. I am only 55 but I already feel like time is running out.

[William Mortensen]

"Arrival" carries a sense of finality to it. If Weston arrived with Pepper #30, where did he go after that? It's a million little steps along the way, and sometimes I stop in my tracks and say "here I am." And like Buckaroo Bonzai, I'm usually right. Arrival is marked when they thow that first shovel of dirt on your coffin, (though I'd prefer being blown up or dropped into a volcano...)

On the other hand, I suppose "I've arrived" could be noting that one has reached a certain status, either within a community or one's own mind, where one wanted to be. Arrival could be anything from the first okay print to a major retrospective at the MMA.

Personally, I feel I've arrived each time I make an exposure and remember to reinsert the darkslide before removing the filmholder from the camera...