DeadPan Aesthetic

[Sarah Carroll]

How would anyone else compare the photos of artists that deal with the deadpan aesthetic, such as bernd and hiller becher, thomas struth, thomas ruff, andreas gursky, renike dijkstra? and if anyone could name any other similar artists/ photgraphers that would be great.

[Mark Sampson]

Walker Evans. The father of them all.

[Robert McClure]

Speaking of Walker Evans and his work, he certainly was the forerunner of what I think Sarah refers to above. He was the very first, I think, to disguise prose as documentary photography.
The straight-on, frontal, and seemingly unemotional look at the commonplace is one of the basics of the grammer of photography, and, in my opinion, it's all owed to Walker Evans.

What's even more stunning for me is that this artist had to have done what he did without any real sense of the magnitude of his contribution. Almost like a Van Gogh. Maybe in his later years he realized something of this. I don't know.

When I add in the time context of Evans' work, late 30's and 40's (I think) his work takes on an even more haunting, enduring quality for me.

Sarah, thanks for bringing to my attention the above photographers you cite. I'd like to become more familiar with their work.

[Robert McClure]

Ken,

A well-made point, especially with your addition of a real example.

What I now ask is, what was going on for the photographer? Did he consider that he had captured a poetic spirit or feeling behind his document?

My supposition is that most of these (mid-nineteenth century) photographers were likely creating beautiful, mesmerizing artifacts with one hell of a wow factor. If I had managed to produce works like that during that time period, considering all the poisonous chemicals, time, and shenannigans it would have taken, I'd be feeling like I'd just scaled Mt. Everest.

On the other hand, I'd have to bet there were persons who wanted to look past the immediate object to " see" all that was actually "visible."

Walker Evans, I suppose it could be said, had to have been very conscious of the full truth and all the implications of what he was doing. For me, it is "written" over much of his work. I think the above lacks that sensibility or magic, as beautiful as it is.

Then again, beauty seems to be in the eyes of the beholder.

[Walter Foscari]

Regarding Walker Evans "..He was the very first, I think, to disguise prose as documentary photography". Not entirely. Ever heard of a certain Atget? Evans saw his work early on, and for many years he vehemently denied he ever did. A sure sign that he knew who close his work was to that of the parisian photographer. That said, I agree that Evans pushed that attitude a little farther and certainly inspired the group known as the new topographers (the Bechers are considered part of that) from which much of this aesthetic is derived.
Sarah you got to check out Gabriele Basilico for more on the genre. And a couple of other names that come to mind are John Davies and Guido Guidi.

[Robert McClure]

W.,

Didn't know that about my man Evans. To a certain extent my balloon has burst!

But when I think of Atget, what I know of him, I think of an early version of photographic "cinema verite," and an accompanying consciousness of that.

Of course, who is to say that's all the further it went for Atget?

The thread for me now seems to be getting at the (slippery) idea of "layers" of meaning in a photograph. Even the idea of assuming things present in a photograph that were no more the intention of the photographer than the man in the moon. (What a bizarre and fascinating art and craft this is!)

I was important to make your point, Ken, that none of us can possibly know what was going on between the ears of the photographer. Thanks! BTW, I recognize your second shot, but can you tell us a little about it?

[Ken Lee]

The second item is from a late Egyptian mummy, my point being that compelling deadpan portraits of people have been made for a long time.

[Robert McClure]

Ken,

Can't possibly be the same basic idea as Evans work! Where is the sign in the background that says
"Watermelons - 5 cents?" Not to mention the shop window covered with wallet-sized photos of hundreds of people!

I guess there can be something in a straight-on, "unemotional" shot that can be wonderful and compelling - that intrigues the photographic (or painterly) explorer.

Sarah C., please come back and talk to us a little more! Didn't mean to get us off track. At least tell us, " Get your own damn thread!" Ha, ha!

[Christopher Nisperos]

Paul Strand's Blind Woman (early 1900's ... I think before 1920).

[Robert McClure]

Christopher,

Yep, that one predated Evans' work I am sure. My memory of it is that it is extremely powerful.

That acknowledged, Evans is still, for my money, in a class by himself. Not sure how to describe his perspective or viewpoint. Of all the other artists and their work which we have all cited, I am not sure how to put words around Walker Evans' distinctiveness. Maybe I (as the viewer) just, sort of, subjectively inject a certain kind of meaning because of my own particular hard-wiring.

If that's true, then this would seem to add another fascinating wrinkle to this medium, and to art in general.

I'm glad I am able to satisfy myself with my own work/explorations. I find myself, more or less, not really caring whether or not I am noticed. Tho it's always nice when someone says they like or find value and meaning in what I do.

[paulr]

"Regarding Walker Evans "..He was the very first, I think, to disguise prose as documentary photography". Not entirely. Ever heard of a certain Atget? "

you might even go back to the 19th century, and compare the american documentarians and landscapists ... matthew brady, timothy o'sullivan, etc..

i don't know if they had any influence at all on walker, but their work was definitely known by the later modernists who admired walker's work.

in europe, i think charles marville could be seen as a precursor to atget (though i have no idea if atget knew his work).

http://www.getty.edu/art/collections/bio/a1558-1.html

A collector I know believes that every kind of picture ever imagined was made in the 19th century. what was missing back then was any kind of encompassing historical linneage tying things together. many experiments happened in isolation--even by accident--so they managed to not influence anyone that came after. Then decades later some modernist, following a completely different path, would end up in the same place.

And then, decades after that, we discover the unknown guy from 1850 doing the same thing as the famous modernist, and wonder what's going on!

[William Mortensen]

And would the counterpoint to Evans be the FSA photographers?

[tim atherton]

In what sense? Evans was an FSA photographer?

[tim atherton]

If you mean in the sense of Documentary vs. Prose (what Evans called working "in the documenatry style") - perhaps yes and no. In many senses the FSA photographers weren't "true" documentary photographers (if there is such a thing) - they were more along the lines of propaganda photographers - in the sense of the word before Goebels got his hands on it as it were.

Many of the FSA photographers had an agenda that informed their work - many overtly political. Evan's aggenda happened to be more personal and "artistic" than political (and he quite bltantly said so - certainly later and I think at the time) - or possibly political in the broadest political terms - and the personal tended to overide it - thankfully.

[David Richhart]

It would be interesting to know how much influence James Agee was having on Walker Evan's work as they were traveling and working together.

And, how much did Evans influence Agee's work like the film "Night of the Hunter", directed by Charles Laughton? It is full of images that any large format photographer could be proud of.

Here I am, getting away from the topic again...

[paulr]

" In many senses the FSA photographers weren't "true" documentary photographers (if there is such a thing) - they were more along the lines of propaganda photographers"

couldn't you say the history of documentary photography has precisely been the history of propaganda photography? (again, in the pre-goebels sense ...)

[tim atherton]

"" In many senses the FSA photographers weren't "true" documentary photographers (if there is such a thing) - they were more along the lines of propaganda photographers"
couldn't you say the history of documentary photography has precisely been the history of propaganda photography? (again, in the pre-goebels sense ...)"

Exactly. Which is why I was so cautious about talkign about 'true" or "pure" docuemtnary photogorpahy, as i'm not sure such a beast exists.

In a way tghis is a side discussion (but not entirely)

Most documentary photography has some form of agenda - often big or small "p" politics. Evans' happened to have more of an aestheic agenda

[William Mortensen]

I was thinking more in terms of Dorthea Lange (her migrant farm workers/families, etc), who's work parallels Walker's, but in a much more humanistic way...

Walker, Lange, and every thinking photographer has an agenda...

[Steven Barall]

I would rather be considered deadpan than flash in the pan.

[Dan_5988]

i read some goofy article about Disfarmer recently, the writer said that the people appeared that way because they didnt know what they were supposed to look like in a photograph...to some extent i think that can be true with the earlier stuff...

but also, i think people appear 'dead pan' in real life for maybe at least 80% of the time? Im looking at my computer screen right now and if you took my picture, it would be pretty dead pan. So whos to say whats right or what should be photographed if it all exists?

I think theres more to a photograph usually of someone being completely dead pan and thats it. Theres always a lot of nuances you get used to picking up in that kind of portrait or documentation (like the becher stuff...which btw i always thought was the most boring of the boring in books, but seeing them in the flesh is really quite nice and they are quite beautiful)

[Walter Foscari]

“in europe, i think charles marville could be seen as a precursor to atget (though i have no idea if atget knew his work).”
Indeed I seem to remember reading somewhere that Atget was well aware of Marville and his contemporaries that stalked the streets of Paris in the second half of the 1800.

And it’s also hard to disagree that every pictures has already been done sometime in those early days of the medium. After over 150 years, what’s different perhaps are not the pictures but the photographers (and the viewers). Along the style of photographs discussed on this thread if you look first at the pioneers of the 19th century then move on to Atget and Evans to the new topographers, to the Dusseldorf guys you can notice in the overall output of each a progressive narrowing of focus. Photographers are increasingly more deliberate in their intent and striving to convey that in their pictures. This certainly makes for strong and clear images, whether it makes more beautiful ones it’s a different question.

[Sarah Carroll]

Well before this lovely chat I had never heard of Walker Evans, so I will have to check him out. Are there any more contemporary names that spring to mind ? And not necessarily photographers that have taken close up portrait style ones ?

And Thanks for all your help so far with this question.

[John_4185]

The expression "Dead pan" comes from the same device that "Flash in the pan" does. I don't think I have to explain it.

Do you think humankind really wants to look embalmed in pictures? I don't. However, through the ages most painters worked from life subjects who had to stay still. Not even Mona could have done that. And we all know that photography required the very same stillness for decades. A carefull, mirror-practiced smile is now considered safe, but the convulsive laughing face is just borderline to being terrifying. Now THAT would be an interesting series. Oh, laughing while jumping. Okay. In the nude! Right.

[Ken Lee]

Not contemporary (1950's), but worthy of admiration:


http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/masters/murdoch.jpg

Portrait of Murdoch McRury, Hebrides Islands by Paul Strand

[Walt Calahan]

jj

Your posting covers it "lock, stock and barrel." ;-)

Remember everyone, keep your power dry!

No one wants to be a flash in the pan, but it is alright to react to my posting with a dead pan reply.

Now let's see how many nautical terms apply to photography?

I keep my equipment ship shape!

HA!

[Oren Grad]

Check out Lee Friedlander's "At Work" series. Some of those pans are as dead as anyone could possibly want.

[jhogan]

Hey Sarah- This site is a great resource, huh? By the way, what's the name of your class? No doubt you'll be crediting this forum and its posters as sources for the work you turn in.

In the hopes I'll be able to contribute to your education (not having had the luxury of obtaining one myself), I'm going provide you with a clue that will, without a doubt, illuminate a key figure in the development of what you are calling the "dead-pan aesthetic."

Ready? Okay, here we go: He is routinely cited as one of the most important photographers of the late 20th century. His work is now hailed as brilliant, though was widely dismissed (and sometimes reviled) by many who saw it when first shown. Many of today's young photographic up and comers ape- errrr..., have appropriated elements of his style- whether knowingly or not. Check out Flickr!

PLEASE folks, before I give Sarah her clue, I'm going to ask that the other members of the forum not give it away- it's important for students to develop fundamental research skills if they want to achieve the maximum benefit from their expensive educations.

Now, Sarah- you already know this photographer is a man- that should make your research easier. So without further adieu, here is your clue: "guide."

Good luck Sarah- Have fun reading books!

[paulr]

i think another reason people looked so gloomy in old pictures is that being photographed was a big deal. it was only a little less upper-crust than having a family painting done. it was a privilege and it was typically expensive. and since it was an event, people were even more self-conscious about the kind of image they projected than they are in pictures now (you don't see too many formal 19th century portraits with people giving each other bunny ears or mooning the camera). this was the time, if there ever was one, to pretend you were dignified.

i bet the whole "smile!!!" esthetic evolved later, when photography became more informal and spontaneous.

[tim atherton]

"i think another reason people looked so gloomy in old pictures is that being photographed was a big deal. it was only a little less upper-crust than having a family painting done. it was a privilege and it was typically expensive. and since it was an event, people were even more self-conscious about the kind of image they projected than they are in pictures now (you don't see too many formal 19th century portraits with people giving each other bunny ears or mooning the camera). this was the time, if there ever was one, to pretend you were dignified.
i bet the whole "smile!!!" esthetic evolved later, when photography became more informal and spontaneous."

Slightly long story - over the last few years Yellowknife has been in the midst of a diamond boom with multi-multi million dollar diamond mines starting up on the Barrens. Out of this grew a small secondary diamond industry - cutting and polishing.

One of the companies which set up was Armenian (originally started by Armenian diamond experts from the diaspora until the Soviet Union fell when they reutern4ed to Armenia and bought up the old Soviet diamond cutting/polishing industry). They imported a whole team (in deep midwinter) of about 40 direct from Yerevan to set up the factory and get it running while they trained local people. Most of these people - from late 20's to 60's had never been outside Armenia (except perhaps to Moscow or Kiev) and had also mostly grown up under Soviet Russian control.

I did a couple of stories on them - their work as well as this Armenian enclave in subartctic Canada. I spent quite a lot of time with them at home and at work in the end and most of it was 35mm b&w HEGR work. But at the end - mainly for myself and not directly, linked tot he story I set up a temporary studio in the lobby of the cutting works and used 4x5 B7W to photograph anyone who wanted to be photographed - which tuned out to Be most of them

There was a bit of joking as few still spoke english, but knew me well by now - but when it came to take the photograph - with a bigger than normal camera in this semi formal setting, down to a one they took it very seriously - and were nearly all deadpan. I realized that for them taking a photograph like this - especially a semi-formal portrait was serious business and was taken very seriously.

Copies of all those photographs were sent back to Armenia and, as I understood it, many joined the formal photographic portraits of several generations gone before.

[austin granger]

"How would anyone else compare the photos of artists that deal with the deadpan aesthetic, such as bernd and hiller becher, thomas struth, thomas ruff, andreas gursky, renike dijkstra? and if anyone could name any other similar artists/ photgraphers that would be great."

The NASA robot photographers are working with the deadpan aesthetic...(and making staggering images!)

I'm reminded of the line (not sure where heard it):

"Photography can be art, but almost never when it thinks it is."

[John_4185]

i think another reason people looked so gloomy in old pictures is that being photographed was a big deal. it was only a little less upper-crust than having a family painting done.

Photographers had the habit of telling everyone to HOLD STILL, even when they didn't have to. People tended to obey. It was convention more than anything else.

I wish I had a scanner large enough to post an inspiring exception. A family picture taken around 1880. Wealthy family, 12 children. Everyone has the requisite serious expression, upright posture, except the mother who is leaning forward slightly and beaming a beautiful smile. She was the genius of the family. So, SOME folks were smart enough not to bend to the photographer's directions.

[adrian tyler]

if you look at old master portraits, especially "primitive" work very few subjects are smirking, smiling any other form of expression. i think that the masters understood what tim's armenian friends understood, that for a portrait to be a lasting impresion of the sitter then it has to reveal a little of the soul, that is to say strip away all of the gestures. this was clearly avedon's objective in his "amerian west" series. if we dismiss the works we are discussing as "deadpan" then one is missing something crucial to its understanding, which perhaps becomes more apparent when viewing a series of work. persistant deadpan shots of the same motif produce work that reveals itself slowly and powerfully with time.

[paulr]

"if we dismiss the works we are discussing as "deadpan" then one is missing something crucial to its understanding ..."

yeah, i started to wonder about the word "deadpan" as it's used in this thread. we seem to be using it in a couple of senses ... to refer to portraits where no one's smiling, and to landscapes and cityscapes that are revealed without melodrama. it makes me wonder if it's a useful category at all.

[John_4185]

Is Sally Mann's "What Remains" melodramatic or dead-pan, and are the subjects landscapes or portraits?

(And WTF was in her mind when she did that series? Trying to join some kind of NY,NY crowd?)

[paulr]

do you have a link? i have seen that body of work.

[John_4185]

do you have a link? i have seen that body of work.

If you are speaking of Mann's "What Remains", no I have no link. We have the book at work (a university library). I don't see the point of the work at all. It is like Mann has declared her own demise. Is she done with photography?

[tim atherton]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1248/is_1_93/ai_n8590990

http://www.pbs.org/art21/artists/mann/
see dog bone pictures

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/egg/301/mann/

http://www.corcoran.org/exhibitions/previous_results.asp?Exhib_ID=83

the best take on these was a full length interview she did with Charlie Rose

personally I think it was a fairly interesting photographic exploration of death and mortality - something often ignored, but which a clear history of artistic exploration. My experience has generally been that the average 6-8 year old has less difficulty being curious about and asking honest questions about death than most adults.

[paulr]

thanks tim .

these look a lot different from the work we'd been talking about. they seem deliberately retro, both in the way of seeing and in the process. it looks like work that's at the crossroads of romanticism and modernism, much like joseph sudek, or even some early frederick sommer.

[Bee Flowers]

>> My experience has generally been that the average 6-8 year old has less difficulty being curious about and asking honest questions about death than most adults. <<

It's easy to be curious about things that don't concern you yet; death is just another fancy story.

[adrian tyler]

i think that perhaps what tim means is that death has been "sanitized" in our modern society.

[Bee Flowers]

That's a different matter altogether, and I'd agree with that. Though, to be fair, it's less sanitized today than, say, several decades ago.

[tim atherton]

"It's easy to be curious about things that don't concern you yet; death is just another fancy story."

No, what I was trying to say was more than and different from that.

Much of the questioning often came in relation to a death - youth suicide, death of a family member, accident.

But the questioning wasn't yet confined by what adrian referred to as being "sanitized".

Questions often ranged from the most profound to the most mundane - "why do people die" to "when I saw grandpa in the casket he wasn't really there" to why was grandma cold when I kissed her" to "what happens to our bones when we bury them" to what does a dead person feel like when you touch them" to "does it hurt when a person is burned (cremated)" - often related to "could a person wake up while they are being buried/cremated" and "what's left after a person is cremated" and many more

There was often a sort of openness to ask these questions that isn't there in many adult circles (even though i know they are questions many adults often asked themselves but not so often out loud), but was of a different sort of quality to "where does the Easter bunny live" - in almost all cases in my experience, there was a real seriousness to the questioning. And even though they were often tied up to an experienced death, they were often questions of a sort of open curiosity, separate from more immediate emotions or feelings - though related to them.

These types of questions seem to me to be the sort of things less spoken about in our (western) society, even if people think them. It seemed to me form looking a he book and hearing her talk about it that these were more the sort of questions Sally Mann was asking - sort of naive questions in a way.

(and prompted - perhaps in that same mix of naivety and brutal reality - by the death of her beloved greyhound an also by the State Troopers shooting to death an escaped convict literally on her front lawn)

[Bee Flowers]

Okay. I've seen the book and it was sort of refreshing. But only sort of because I wish she'd buy a proper lens and some decent film and chemistry, especially for a project that seems to want to quit beating around the bush and get down to business.

[Bill Hahn]

With all this talk of Walker Evans, I just wanted to point out that there is a video called "Walker Evans' America" with some film footage of Evans. It's well worth watching. At one point he makes the point that sometimes young artists do precisely the right thing unconsciously or for the wrong reasons. (He was talking about his doing straight 'inartistic' photography, as a reaction to the Stieglitz school.)

(There's a similar example in chess, where Aron Nimzovich decided to become a professional chessplayer just to show the pedantic German Siegbert Tarrasch that he (Tarrasch) was wrong about some things in chess....)