4x5 diy view camera rack/pinion question [Archive]

Andreafotosg

14-Apr-2018, 02:53

Hello all,
I'm reading this website since time and now I'm starting thinking to build a 4x5 view camera.
I'm looking for parts, in particular racks and pinions and I've found:

Plastic gear width 4,2 mm diameter 10 mm and hole of 2,5mm as you can see in the picture
Mod is 0,5

The rack is
Mod 0,5 length 125 mm, 4mm wide, 7 mm high as in the other picture

Do you think they could be used for a 4x5 lf camera with dimension 18x18 cm ?
Or 2,5 inner diameter of gear is too thin ?

Thanks for help
Andrew177132https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180414/1fd5872ca1d71ec088eeac96d22ae327.jpg

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Jim Jones

14-Apr-2018, 06:21

For a rack and pinion made of plastic, these seem too small. If used, the 2.5mm shaft would have to be well supported. Such a small gear might wear too much. Others with actual experience with such plastic racks and pinions can provide more valid information.

Pfsor

14-Apr-2018, 07:05

Do you think they could be used for a 4x5 lf camera with dimension 18x18 cm ?

What is a 4x5 LF camera with a dimension of 7x7? The first LF camera of a zoom dimension?

Graham Patterson

14-Apr-2018, 07:12

Not unreasonable dimensions for the rear of a 4x5 with a reversible back. If it is a folding camera that also constrains the base dimensions.

mdarnton

14-Apr-2018, 07:40

Jac@stafford.net

14-Apr-2018, 07:44

What is a 4x5 LF camera with a dimension of 7x7? The first LF camera of a zoom dimension?

This one. (http://www.digoliardi.net/super-wide-4x5-1.jpg)

Pfsor

14-Apr-2018, 08:17

This one. (http://www.digoliardi.net/super-wide-4x5-1.jpg)

A nice example of using a rack/pinion on a camera - à la Jac@stafford.net

Andreafotosg

14-Apr-2018, 08:54

Hello,
18x18 is the dimension of the base plate

I've got another photo of the rack, but more infos can be found at:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XYCL1105-10Pcs-Gear-Rack-0-5-Modulus-Plastic-Rack-Pinion-Drive-Rod-DIY-Parts-New/331538739814?hash=item4d313fb266:g:4QsAAOSwcwhVO2g1

In the same shop I found also the gear

Hope it is more clear now

Andrewhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180414/677fa5162ba867a46468b52ebcbabc5b.jpg

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Pfsor

14-Apr-2018, 09:49

Hello,
18x18 is the dimension of the base plate
...

Thanks Andrea for your explication.
If you want my opinion on your pinion - it all depends on the construction and the weight of your front standard (plus a lens). Your rack and pinion can be all fine if the construction is precise and the weight is not overwhelming. You can put it to a test much before deciding if it is the correct size or not. You don't need to shoot into darkness.

Pfsor

14-Apr-2018, 11:37

... Your rack and pinion can be all fine if the construction is precise ...

By that I mean, to be more precise, that the racks must be strictly parallel to each other and the rod for the pinion strictly perpendicular to the racks. Which means that you cannot just screw the rack to the wood and hope it is in the good position - that would probably screw it up. You must have some means to be able to fine tune the rack position to its right position before you screw it. There are mechanical means that allow for this.

Andreafotosg

14-Apr-2018, 12:01

Pfsor,
of course the racks must be parallel and all measures perfect!

Interesting challenge!!

Andrew

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Leigh

14-Apr-2018, 13:19

Andreafotosg

14-Apr-2018, 13:23

Hi Leigh,
I agree with you, but metal rack is not easy to find, I've tried with no success
If you have some links I'll be grateful

Andrew

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Lachlan 717

14-Apr-2018, 13:39

Hi Leigh,
I agree with you, but metal rack is not easy to find, I've tried with no success
If you have some links I'll be grateful

Andrew,

Here is where I get mine:

http://www.ronsongears.com.au/stock-gears.php

As for the polymer ones you’re indicating, chances are they’re strong enough. Chemistry and related technology has come a long way, with seemingly exotic properties of strength and longevity being common in today’s modern polymers.

You’ll pay a noticeable price in weight for the peace-of-mind that metal parts offer. And probably in $$$...

LabRat

14-Apr-2018, 13:43

I agree with Leigh that nylon would be strained unless the moving standards rode with minimal resistance (like on fine bearings) as these might get brittle and break over a long time, or if they were not matched/mounted correctly, they could wear out/strip easily... Brass or zinc would be a better choice, but these would have to be aligned carefully too, or wear/meshing is also an issue...

Your best bet for a strong/cheap drive would be a block (that can slide and lock at different points) that rides on the rail or bed easily, but has a threaded bolt that can turn with a knob, and moves the standard mount block due to a nut inside the block that allows fine focusing... Cheap hardware store stuff!!!

You can "think beyond the rack" with design!!!

Good Luck!!!

Steve K

Jac@stafford.net

14-Apr-2018, 13:43

I would never use a plastic rack and/or pinion on view camera front standard.

While it looks like a simple application, there can be substantial forces involved during movement.
A plastic pinion has no reliable attachment to the rod that moves it.

A brass pinion with a stainless steel rack will do what you want and last forever without maintenance.

- Leigh

People who bought Linhof Technikas know that. Some inattentive owners have tried to jack up the front rise when it was locked down. Bummer. Later some enterprising person had brass replacements made.

If there is a plastic rack & pinion, it is likely there is a metal one, too.
.

Pfsor

14-Apr-2018, 15:04

People who bought Linhof Technikas know that. Some inattentive owners have tried to jack up the front rise when it was locked down. Bummer. Later some enterprising person had brass replacements made.
.

That can be hardly an argument against the use of a nylon rack and pinion in a LF camera. People can suffocate on a simple hamburger too...

Jac@stafford.net

14-Apr-2018, 15:04

Jac@stafford.net

14-Apr-2018, 15:07

That can be hardly an argument against the use of a nylon rack and pinion in a LF camera. People can suffocate on a simple hamburger too...

You seem desperate for an argument. Just stop that.
I'll buy you a hamburger if you demonstrate it to us.

Pfsor

14-Apr-2018, 15:08

You seem desperate for an argument. Just stop that.
I'll buy you a hamburger if you demonstrate it to me.

Please, stay on the track, if you can...

Pfsor

14-Apr-2018, 15:10

The OP might look for 'low profile roller track', or something like that. I have a couple that use tubular type bearings intended for light duty. I cannot remember where they came from, but it was something photographic because all my odds and ends are photo stuff.

The OP might also realise that a nylon rack and pinion is quite a modern solution not available to the most of LF manufacturers in the past...

Pfsor

14-Apr-2018, 15:17

What is more, the OP can also realise that nylon pinions are common on modern printers where they get much more use than on his intended camera...

Pfsor

14-Apr-2018, 15:22

Jac@stafford.net

14-Apr-2018, 15:29

Ultimately, the OP can also realise that other people's misadventure with Linhof cameras have no bearing on his own construction and go for the intended nylon rack and pinion modern material for his camera.

I find your contributions annoying, unnecessarily argumentative, discouraging new ideas, in all contrary to the spirit of DIY. You seem to post only to put down information/ideas contrary to your own.

Ignore file for you.

Lachlan 717

14-Apr-2018, 15:44

Petty pissing contests aside, I think that polymer rack/pinion options are viable for 4x5” with somewhat limited draw. That is, not loading the camera up with massive >270mm Fast Plasmats.

One suggestion I would offer that comes from my experience with building timber cameras is to avoid wood on wood sliding components. I feel that you’re going to get a smoother, longer lived camera if you have a Teflon (or carbon on carbon) weight bearing strip. These low friction options will take the stress from the gears to a great extent.

The flip side of this is that you’ll need a decent locking system to stop inadvertent movements once focused!

Jac@stafford.net

14-Apr-2018, 15:48

[... snip good information ...]
The flip side of this is that you’ll need a decent locking system to stop inadvertent movements once focused!

Yes, thank you, a very good point. Some well established makers are remiss in that issue, for example those that lock the track on only one side of the pair. Ideas welcome!

Leigh

14-Apr-2018, 16:07

Hi Leigh,
I agree with you, but metal rack is not easy to find, I've tried with no success
If you have some links I'll be grateful
Andrew
Hi Andrew,

Metal racks and pinions are available in a range of sizes from McMaster-Carr Supply Co.
http://www.mcmaster.com

- Leigh

Sean Mac

14-Apr-2018, 16:49

A camera build by the very resourceful "barnacle" is worth looking at.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?128525-DIY-5x4-in-Sapele

The source he provides on the first page also have brass racks and gears. Useful for members in Europe

Hope this helps:).

Jim Jones

14-Apr-2018, 18:32

What is more, the OP can also realise that nylon pinions are common on modern printers where they get much more use than on his intended camera...

Engineers designing nylon racks and pinions for printers don't have to allow for what photographers are apt to do to those mechanisms.

Pfsor

14-Apr-2018, 23:37

I find your contributions annoying, unnecessarily argumentative, discouraging new ideas, in all contrary to the spirit of DIY. You seem to post only to put down information/ideas contrary to your own.

Ignore file for you.

Once again - try to stay on the track. The topic is a nylon rack and pinion, not your feelings about others. What do you think about a nylon rack and pinion, remember that.

Pfsor

14-Apr-2018, 23:41

Engineers designing nylon racks and pinions for printers don't have to allow for what photographers are apt to do to those mechanisms.

That's true, a camera is different from a printer. The printer nylon pinions get much more wear than a camera ones - and how useful they are! What do you think the nylon examples of the OP are good for?

Pfsor

15-Apr-2018, 00:41

I can't be sure without taking it apart, but this appears to be exactly the type of gearing driving the focus on my new Intrepid 8x10, on a close-to 2.5mm rod (with the reservation that I can't see how the track is fastened--only the teeth), with two gears and tracks, one on either side of the bed, and It's very smooth--I initially thought it might be friction drive with an O-ring until I started looking.

In the Intrepid the whole system appears to be fed through long grooves in the wood taking most of the pressure and acting as a bearing for the rod, with metal bearing surfaces only at the end, under the knobs, only needed for the lateral clamping to lock the focus..

Your comment should not be overlooked. The Intrepid camera is probably the closest to a homebuilt camera the OP wants to have. What is more, the Intrepid you mention is even a bigger camera than the OP wants to build. Yet it uses - despite all the naysayers - a nylon rack and pinion. Isn't it a sufficient answer to the OP question?

Colin Graham

15-Apr-2018, 07:44

At that price, they look worth experimenting with. I'd look for a spur gear that has a protruding hub though, to simplify attaching them to the shaft.

Hello all,
I'm reading this website since time and now I'm starting thinking to build a 4x5 view camera.
I'm looking for parts, in particular racks and pinions and I've found:

Plastic gear width 4,2 mm diameter 10 mm and hole of 2,5mm as you can see in the picture
Mod is 0,5

The rack is
Mod 0,5 length 125 mm, 4mm wide, 7 mm high as in the other picture

Do you think they could be used for a 4x5 lf camera with dimension 18x18 cm ?
Or 2,5 inner diameter of gear is too thin ?

Thanks for help
Andrew177132https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180414/1fd5872ca1d71ec088eeac96d22ae327.jpg

Sent from my SM-T719 using Tapatalk

barnacle

15-Apr-2018, 08:26

On my sapele camera, the slide is between wooden surfaces; the nylon gear is used *only* to provide for and aft focussing movement.

The pinion gears have a short shaft, and I drilled through that and the brass focussing shaft and locked them with a pin.

(I have a plan to rebuild that camera; some of the wood has started to split - courtesy central heating, I suspect - and there were aspects of the brasswork with which I was not overly happy. But that's what prototypes are for.)

Neil

Pfsor

15-Apr-2018, 09:03

On my sapele camera, the slide is between wooden surfaces; the nylon gear is used *only* to provide for and aft focussing movement.
...
Neil

Which means that your nylon gear is strained even more than it would be in the common rack&pinion construction.
That is a good sign for the OP!

Andreafotosg

15-Apr-2018, 10:27

Thanks all for suggestions and opinions and links
Really useful

I'll look for a different type of gear

Also great the link to Neil's camera, I'll study his idea and solution

Andrew

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Bob Salomon

15-Apr-2018, 11:37

Andreafotosg

15-Apr-2018, 11:45

Hi Bob,
It's the challenge, the hardest way for sure, It's a hobby and the final satisfaction for diy is priceless!!
[emoji847][emoji847][emoji847]

Andrew

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Jim Jones

15-Apr-2018, 12:59

The Noba camera http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?125508-NOBA-Cameras cleverly avoids the use of rack and pinions.

Sean Mac

15-Apr-2018, 17:35

Also great the link to Neil's camera, I'll study his idea and solution.

Practical experience is more useful than theoretical opinion :)

I hope you have looked closely at the Phillips / Chamonix approach using linear rails and ball screws.

It is well tested.

Best wishes:)

Andreafotosg

15-Apr-2018, 22:35

Sean,
Thanks for suggestion on Chamonix camera
I'll study and test also this solution

Andrew

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Havoc

16-Apr-2018, 12:56

Don't underestimate plastics. They make gears for lathes out of plastic these days (and even in the '60's). Just separate load bearing sliding function from transport.

Jac@stafford.net

16-Apr-2018, 15:52

Just for a break, OP, consider a solution that does not require a rack-and-pinion. Today's materials might help. Considering such a solution is a good mental exercise. Inventors go outside of convention to discover novel approaches.

I built a wide angle wooden 4x5 camera frame that slid the lens against a vertical slide rather than the base. It locked focus using a large Wing nut. No bellows, no movements which will strike some LF enthusiasts as silly, but it was wide-angle. So be it.

Just trying to free up pre-conceptions.
--
Jac

Pfsor

16-Apr-2018, 17:35

Just for a break, OP, consider a solution that does not require a rack-and-pinion. ...
... No bellows, no movements which will strike some LF enthusiasts as silly, but it was wide-angle. So be it.

Just trying to free up pre-conceptions.
--
Jac

There you see it, Andrea. Some of us would like you to not only forget about your plastic rack&pinion but also about bellows, movements and focusing altogether on your LF camera.
By now I think you understand that a lot of the so called advice you will get is just a pure concentrate of, well ... not much sense rumble. Just keep your common sense.

Andreafotosg

22-Apr-2018, 06:06

Hi all,
Thanks for all ideas and advices.
I'm trying to find the best solution also considering the tools for diy

I'll keep you informed just to show my progresses, always ready to follow yr advices

Ciao
Andrew

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John Earley

24-Apr-2018, 10:11

Tin Can

24-Apr-2018, 10:14

I bought one of these for $8.24 on e*ay. It will do the same thing as a rack/pinion set will and is actually easier to fabricate an item with it that functions well.
177496

They (T8 lead screw) come in various pitches and lengths.

Are those as small as they look?

I never found small ones.

Would you PM me the eBay site?

Thanks!

Andreafotosg

24-Apr-2018, 11:16

Thanks John,
could also send me the info ?

Ciao
Andrew

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John Earley

24-Apr-2018, 12:28

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3D-Printer-T8-1-2-4-8-12-14mm-300mm-Lead-Screw-8mm-Thread-With-Copper-Nut-For/162808973198?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D51378%26meid%3Daf39a56113c64d5085626827ed692c56%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D192513299133%26itm%3D162808973198&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A3087b605-47f5-11e8-bf41-74dbd18096f5%7Cparentrq%3Af91dd2cf1620ab14de99f4b2fffa6e1f%7Ciid%3A1
3D Printer T8 1/2/4/8/12/14mm 300mm Lead Screw 8mm Thread With Copper Nut For Stepper Motor (it says copper nut but it's brass)

Description:
This T-type screw is a new type of screw is mainly used in stepper motor, machine tool rails and other equipments.
Feature:
Diameter: 8mm screw
Lead distance: 1/2/4/8/12/14mm (lead refers to a circle in a straight line distance) (Optional)
Material: All stainless steel screw
Steel length: 300mm
Quantity: 1pc
Package includes:
1 x 300mm Lead
1 x Screw nut

177502

John Earley

24-Apr-2018, 12:51

6mm T6 lead screws
https://www.ebay.com/itm/T6-x-1-to-T6-x-12-Lead-Screw-Threaded-Rod-6mm-Trapezoidal-ACME-Stepper-100-600mm/142427734206?hash=item21295ac0be:m:mXfdnmvUCOLrFQxxOVMf4DQ

Lachlan 717

24-Apr-2018, 12:59

Just a heads up
On these:

You need two nuts - one to attach to the slide assembly and one to attach to the camera body.

When I purchased these a year or two ago, I asked whether they sold just the jugs; they didn’t, so I had to get a second full assembly. This might have changed.

Good quality, though.

Tin Can

24-Apr-2018, 13:38

Thanks John and Lachan

This is a better size than I have bought before.

Yes need 2 stops.

Andreafotosg

24-Apr-2018, 13:41

Thanks John and Lachan also from my side

Andrew

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Jac@stafford.net

24-Apr-2018, 13:58

So many interesting hardware solutions! I'm impressed, and at the same time I imagine, and in one case of my own, building another approach. What about a simple, wooden sliding track that lets the photographer push or pull the front standard in and out? When focus is achieved he can lock it in place using a simple wing-nut hold-down.

Too simple?
.

John Earley

24-Apr-2018, 14:03

So many good hardware solutions! I'm impressed, and at the same time I imagine, and in one case of my own, building another approach. What about a simple, wooden sliding track that lets the photographer push or pull the front standard in and out? When focus is achieved he can lock it in place using a simple wing-nut hold-down.

Too simple?
.
That's the way many early cameras were designed. Rack/pinion came a bit later for more accuracy/ease of focusing.

Jac@stafford.net

24-Apr-2018, 14:19

That's the way many early cameras were designed. Rack/pinion came a bit later for more accuracy/ease of focusing.

They were f*cked up in their implementations - like boxes inside boxes
which were wrong from the very start, but it was all they knew.

Just because a more modern tech is introduced and maintained does
not mean it is better, especially within the scope of DIY terms of this forum.
.

Tin Can

24-Apr-2018, 14:23

I need to roll back and forth with focus. At least I do now...

Jac@stafford.net

24-Apr-2018, 14:25

I need to roll back and forth with focus. At least I do now...

Try a sliding track with one or two thumb-rests.
.

Tin Can

24-Apr-2018, 14:31

Try a sliding track with one or two thumb-rests.
.

I have on one of those old taliboards where you slide it to close focus and then turn the not so great eccentric focus knob. I was going to mod that, but now I remember I gave the camera away.

I want this for my 14X17.

el french

29-Apr-2018, 21:51

T8 leadscrews are available on Aliexpress. I have both 1mm lead and 8mm lead. They come with nuts, but you can also order low backlash nuts separately. The nuts also come in several different styles.

Here are a few links to ones I have purchased:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DuoWeiSi-3D-Printer-Parts-3D-Printer-T8-1-2-4-8-12-14mm-Copper-Screw-Nut/32822001206.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.0TBYsA
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DuoWeiSi-3D-Printer-Parts-3D-Printer-T8-1-2-4-8-12-14mm-300mm-Lead-Screw/32822357404.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.0TBYsA
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3d-printer-acThreaded-Rod-Lead-Screws-DIY-CNC-3D-Printer-Parts-T8-Anti-Backlash-Spring-Loaded/32822642548.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.0TBYsA