Source of hot water

[mpirie]

Hi guys,

I'd like to tap into the collective and ask a question.

What equipment/source for heating water do you have/recommend in your darkroom?

I only have a source of cold water in my setup and obviously need to raise it to 20deg C for B&W processing.

Maybe an electric shower or similar?

Thanks,
Mike

[morecfm]

Do you need a continuous flow of water or just a few liters or gallons every now and then. If you need a few finite draws of water, there are small 2.5 gallon water heaters that plug into 110 volt supplies that can be plumbed in and then run to a hot/cold water faucet. It may not be able to keep up with continuous flow though. There are also some tankless electric water heaters but they will require a separate 240 volt line run to the darkroom and can be somewhat expensive. What I said applies to the US as far as voltages are concerned but may apply to other parts of our blue sphere also.

[Peter Collins]

Just a note: It is critical to keep the developer temperature stable; I make sure that the pre-soak water (in case of film) is at 20 degC, as well as the developer (in the case of film and paper). The other--stop, fixer, wash agent, etc., need to be close. I think that I remember 'within 5 degF' The other solutions' activity is not so heat-promoted/heat-affected as are the compounds in the developer.

[Tin Can]

If the home and darkroom are heated why not store whatever water you need and let the home warm it to ambient.

Prepper water storage containers? Costco sells them. Or 3.5 gallon water bricks. https://www.overstock.com/Emergency-Preparedness/Stackable-Portable/28110/subcat.html?featuredproduct=10398688&featuredoption=15930262&cid=202290&kid=9553000357392&track=pspla&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=17501122-000-000&gclid=Cj0KCQiA38jRBRCQARIsACEqIet8KxfQay50Qk33Uy5LYyojF5wtCF-4PiF1_zuYOlqnGVAVPz2TbEMaAty6EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CPe4y-azitgCFcIHPwod1TMAtA

[Jimi]

If it is cold in the darkroom too, a heater to keep the liquids in temperature could be a good idea.

[mpirie]

Thanks guys.

I was thinking of a continuous flow of tempered water for film washing, for example from an electric shower unit.

I have a mixing valve that will control the temperature, but it needs a hot as well as cold supply.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I have a mixing valve that will control the temperature, but it needs a hot as well as cold supply.

Put a T junction before the inlet to the heater.

[mpirie]

That's the plan Jac, but first i need a heater.

[Tin Can]

An EU on-demand shower heater, with gas or AC, is on all the time the water is flowing. You only need a trickle of water to wash film and paper. It will use too much juice.

I hate to say it, a US-style holding/buffering tank hot water heater will perhaps be cheaper to operate at a trickle.

[Jac@stafford.net]

That's the plan Jac, but first i need a heater.

I misunderstood. Sorry. For B&W temperature control you only need it for developer, stop and fix. Most modern films are highly resistant to reticulation, so a not-so-gentle transition from fix to wash is not critical. Hypo eliminator, of course, helps with the wash.

Good luck!

My darkroom is freezing cold. Too cold for printing. I'm out of it for the Winter. :(

Oh, I see that Randy Moe mentioned EU heaters! Yep, maybe a good approach. When I lived in England my place had a hot water heater and baseboard that accepting Shillings for a timed heat. Talk about penny pinching! :) Oh, and the home phone was a pay phone. I do not miss those days.

[mpirie]

When I lived in England my place had a hot water heater and baseboard that accepting Shillings for a timed heat. Talk about penny pinching! :) Oh, and the home phone was a pay phone. I do not miss those days.

Man, "shillings and pay-phones"?.....now you're showing your age (and mine, since I remember them too) :-)

Having suffered from reticulation many years ago, i'm very wary of wide temperature changes.

Maybe the above-sink style water heater will be sufficient to give a small heat rise to the cold supply while it flows?

[Jac@stafford.net]

Man, "shillings and pay-phones"?.....now you're showing your age (and mine, since I remember them too) :-)

1965 to 1970, Oxford. I loved the life as a young man. Didn't you, too? Oh, and having down feather blankets made the dating scene as good as gold :)

Conversation

Her, "Darling, there feels like a cold round steel tube be my feet under the blanket!"
Me, "Stand development. Let us rock the bed gently."

[consummate_fritterer]

Thanks guys.

I was thinking of a continuous flow of tempered water for film washing, for example from an electric shower unit.

I have a mixing valve that will control the temperature, but it needs a hot as well as cold supply.

In that case, what I would do is get a small tank water heater (3-5 gallon) AND a tankless unit, run in tandem with the tank heater nearest the mixing valve. The small tank heater provides instantaneous heat, while the tankless unit provides perpetual heat. The tank heater serves double-duty as a mixing buffer for the less regulated (moderated) cold/hot water exiting the tankless heater.

[mpirie]

Sounds like a good idea!

What does everyone else use? Do you have a domestic hot water supply to the darkroom as well as cold?

I wonder if i'm over-thinking this ;-)

[Tin Can]

Yes, I simply use my gas 40 gal water heater and cold water to a Hass Mixer. It will control well at a trickle. I hook it up with Pex. DIY

Draining was my problem.

[xkaes]

Sounds like a good idea!

What does everyone else use? Do you have a domestic hot water supply to the darkroom as well as cold?

I wonder if i'm over-thinking this ;-)

Most people on this side of "the pond" have hot water in the house -- even those "off the grid". In Scotland, do they still burn peat instead? That's what my grandfather told me he did.

[consummate_fritterer]

Most people on this side of "the pond" have hot water in the house -- even those "off the grid". In Scotland, do they still burn peat instead? That's what my grandfather told me he did.

Had I an endless resource of peat for free energy... you'd better darn-well believe I'd burn it. :D

[Jac@stafford.net]

Draining was my problem.

That's my problem, too. My basement is below the drain level. I have to plumb the darkroom with a pump to move the drainage about three foot high. Still thinking of it.

...oh and the room heat issue. So costly.

[Tin Can]

I was in a condo on a slab. I took my hot and cold off the bathroom sink just above the shutoffs. Pex to next room. The drains for 3 darkroom sinks connected in series went through the same wall and a 90 dumped it in the bathtub drain. Not ideal but I was careful with chems and as I had free water, I ran a lot through it all. Sold condo, disconnected and patched all holes. Goodby Chicago.


That's my problem, too. My basement is below the drain level. I have to plumb the darkroom with a pump to move the drainage about three foot high. Still thinking of it.

...oh and the room heat issue. So costly.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Randy, that's not the same as having to pump the drain 3' up to the sewer.

[mpirie]

Most people on this side of "the pond" have hot water in the house -- even those "off the grid". In Scotland, do they still burn peat instead? That's what my grandfather told me he did.

Wow....you have hot water in the house? Man, what will they think of next?......you'll be telling me that you can flick a switch and magically have light ? :p

We have endless supplies of peat, and yes it's still burned in homes.....it has a lovely smell. We also use it for making some VERY nice whisky :)

I guess i could tap into the house hot water......that's how i got cold water into the darkroom too.

[Jac@stafford.net]

We have endless supplies of peat, and yes it's still burned in homes.....it has a lovely smell. We also use it for making some VERY nice whisky :)

Sure, rub it into our face! Nice whisky is an understatement. Gosh, I was so sympathetic until that! :) Ya know what we pay for your natural resource?

[mpirie]

Working for a US company and travelling there regularly.....i know exactly what you pay for our whisky.....and naturally i make up for that when i'm at home :)

[Tin Can]

Randy, that's not the same as having to pump the drain 3' up to the sewer.

I had a Skokie house with a basement under the water table. The toilet down there had a pump to get s*** out to my sewer line, which then had a one-way ejection valve in the front yard to get everything into the street sewer and keep it there. My first house, first wife, first flood. Almost as exciting as the possum in the house chasing cats. We had fun there.

[xkaes]

With the right amount of whiskey, you don't worry about hot water in the darkroom -- nor reticulation. But at that point, you can't find the darkroom, anyway.

Yet another photographic problem solved!

[Randy]

I was thinking of a continuous flow of tempered water for film washing...Just in case you didn't know, some of us do not use running water for film washing - we just soak the film and every 5 minutes or so, dump it and refill with fresh water, repeating for about 20 minutes or so. That is how I have been washing film for may years - so - no need for temperature controlled running water at your film processing station as long as you have access to it somewhere in the facility.

[mpirie]

Good point Randy. I guess i'm trying to setup the home darkroom to be like the professional darkrooms i've used in the past.

Mike

[Paul Ron]

Here ya go... pick one? easy install and ready to use anytime you need a small amount of hot water.

https://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbing-Water-Heaters-Point-Of-Use/N-5yc1vZbqo7

[Barry Wilkinson]

I have the same problem here in Somerset UK. I have solved my film processing problems using a cheap s/s Bain Marie tray with a Sous Vide to maintain a water bath for film processing. The chemical containers and film processing tank sit in the water. The main issue is as o/p says is washing film. Currently I am resorting to long washing times after using hypo-clear. However in the future when our new utility room is completed I will simply take the film in there as it will have both hot and cold water. I don't know of any water heaters that will provide 20C continuous water?

[mnemosyne]

Just in case you didn't know, some of us do not use running water for film washing - we just soak the film and every 5 minutes or so, dump it and refill with fresh water, repeating for about 20 minutes or so. That is how I have been washing film for may years - so - no need for temperature controlled running water at your film processing station as long as you have access to it somewhere in the facility.

That is the point, exactly. Use the Ilford film washing procedure, and all you need is a bucket full of water at the desired temperature. No running water needed. And for FB paper it is not a problem, as the temperature does not really matter unless it is well below 10C.

I was facing the same problem in my makeshift darkroom, I installed a simple under-the-sink 5 liter storage type water heater that works within normal power specs and is plug and play in a normal wall power outlet. I am sure you can get something comparable in Scotland. In my experience, those tankless on-demand heaters that have a reasonable flow of warm water are not plug and play as they have special power requirements requiring installation by a trained eletrician etc pp and it was just not worth the fuss for me. At least that is the situation here in Germany.

[xkaes]

Fixer remover (available under different names/brands) is easy and cheap to buy and saves a lot of water. I mix it myself with a little sodium sulfite and a pinch of sodium bisulfite. Costs me about a penny for a gallon. Running water is really not needed and sometimes unavailable -- just a final clean rinse. Cold water works fine. To avoid reticulation just make sure the temperature change is not too dramatic from one liquid to the next.

[Harold_4074]

I can all too clearly recall the first time I tried to set up my brand new Calumet fully plumbed darkroom sink---and discovered that the mixing valve was not designed to work at less than about 5 gallons per minute. That's a lot of water, and the valve wouldn't stabilize for at least half a minute after turning it on. Since I really wanted water for mixing one-shot developer and filling tempering baths, I have been using a big tank, thermometer and stirring stick for the last twenty years or so.

I have finally bought (but not yet installed) a Hass valve, and a 1200 watt 240-volt element for a small water heater. This will draw only about 300 watts on 120 volts, so the wiring should handle it easily, and the "reserve" of twenty gallons should temper more than enough hot water for a developing session. Over the years I have schemed a number of setups using a small chiller, small water heater and recirculating pumps so that eventually I can have year-round tempered water (the water comes out of the well at 71 F but for this winter I will still count on below-68 F water incoming).

It is important to remember that tank-type water heaters are designed for acceptable "recovery rate" after withdrawal (requiring a lot of power) , and tankless heaters have to have enough power for "instantaneous" recovery, but darkroom usage can typically tolerate a long recovery time, and the working temperature is usually much closer to supply temperature than the 145--150 F that a water heater is designed for.

A little stored hot water can go a long way. With inlet water at 50 F, 4.5 gallons of cold and 1 gallon of hot should give you 5.5 gallons of 68 F water. A "dispenser" type water heater rated at 750 watts would allow around 25 gallons per hour with 50 F inlet; you could even wash paper with that.

[Lou Baleur]

I've seen very small inline aquarium heaters that may do the job for very small flow and small temperature rise--you won't need to heat all that much for darkroom use, so maybe one of those would be a good starting point. they are pretty cheap and require no heavy duty wiring either as the wattage requirements are much lower than the higher flow a shower would need.

[mpirie]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head Harold_4074........my mixing valve is old-school and does seem to be reliant on a (relatively) high flow of around 5 gallons per minute (obviously controllable), but difficult to stabilise at lower flow-rates.

At this time of year, the incoming mains water is around 4-5 deg C (37-39 Deg F) so expecting a heater to raise the temperature by 15-16 deg may be asking too much.

I have one of the "point of demand" heaters as mentioned by Paul, but of course, once the reserve is gone, then the demands on the heater are too much, especially when you need to run 5 gallons per minute to get a stable wash temp.....the heater has no chance.

I'm still tempted to install an in-line electric shower, and rely of the inbuilt thermostat to control the temperature (within limits).

[consummate_fritterer]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head Harold_4074........my mixing valve is old-school and does seem to be reliant on a (relatively) high flow of around 5 gallons per minute (obviously controllable), but difficult to stabilise at lower flow-rates.

At this time of year, the incoming mains water is around 4-5 deg C (37-39 Deg F) so expecting a heater to raise the temperature by 15-16 deg may be asking too much.

I have one of the "point of demand" heaters as mentioned by Paul, but of course, once the reserve is gone, then the demands on the heater are too much, especially when you need to run 5 gallons per minute to get a stable wash temp.....the heater has no chance.

I'm still tempted to install an in-line electric shower, and rely of the inbuilt thermostat to control the temperature (within limits).

Add a small tank heater between the tankless heater and the mixing valve. The tank heater provides instant heated water and acts as a buffer for water coming in at erratic temperature. The tankless heater provides sustained heated water.

[Luis-F-S]

A 10 gallon water heater with an Intellifaucet K250 control valve. If you're concerned about tank capacity, get a 15 gallon. Between the heater and a 32 gph chiller, I can get 68 deg water year round. Some of us do wash with continuous flow. I had a post on the installation under:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?109688-Hass-Intellifaucet-Installation&highlight=intellifaucet
L

[Tin Can]

Don't forget the 2 filters. One hot and one cold. Hass recommends them.

[mpirie]

An endless supply of fresh water is not an issue in my part of the world ;)

[Jac@stafford.net]

Has anyone mentioned that your darkroom might be close enough to your central hot water heater to simply tap into it? And if you are concerned about the copper pipe leaking heat, wrap it in insulation. That would be a heck of a lot more cost-effective than installing a supplementary water heater.
.

[mpirie]

It is an option Jac.

I plumbed in the cold water supply from the house mains, so i could do the same with the hot supply.

Distance is only some 22m from the house to the darkroom.

Mike

[Luis-F-S]

If you have electric available, it would be better to install a dedicated water heater. You can put a single cold filter ahead of it, you can switch it off when not needed, and you won't have to wait for the hot water 22 meters away from the darkroom to reach you!

[Jac@stafford.net]

It is an option Jac.

I plumbed in the cold water supply from the house mains, so i could do the same with the hot supply.

Distance is only some 22m from the house to the darkroom.

Mike

Mike, that is certainly an acceptable distance considering the modest temperatures we must sustain. I have the same. Wrapping the pipes with common foam pipe insulation held in place with tie wraps works very well, is cost effective and is so easy to do yourself. If your climate is so cold that it does not quite meet your needs (I would be surprised), then an inexpensive in-line booster heater is adequate.

Good luck!

[ericpmoss]

If you could tolerate 25C/77F (or stop once the water is up to temp), you could try an Anova sous vide immersion heater. Insanely good temperature regulation, and you can cook the best steaks ever... Edit: the Sansaire goes much lower (though none of them cool water, of course).