Levels of Success - High End Art

[Shutter20]

Hello,

There's something I've been thinking about and I'm wondering if you lovely people would share your opinions and ideas. It's in regards to levels of success that certain fine art photographers have garnered.

On one hand you have the likes of Thomas Struth, Hiroshi Sugimoto, Taryn Simon, Edward Burtynsky et al. who seem to have struck the photography lottery and their work sells for millions. On the other hand, you have photographers like Alec Soth, Bryan Schutmaat, Jack Latham etc. These people no doubt have well deserved success and accolades and are probably making a good living selling their work, but I'm guessing their prints aren't creating bidding wars for high end collectors looking for an investment opportunity.

I guess my question is what separates these two kinds of success in the art world? Why does work by Struth, Sugimoto and others go for such grand prices? Is it the clarity/ universality of their concepts? Is it about scale/ production value? Or is it that, at that high level of art, the artist becomes more important than the work itself?

I don't know if my thoughts are getting across but if anyone has any insight or thoughts I'd love to hear them! To be clear, I'm not trying to put down any of the work from photographers that I've mentioned but it's just out of sheer curiosity regarding the world of fine art and photography's place in it that I' asking!

Thanks!

[Kirk Gittings]

So I think if there were a simple answer that the art market would be a predictable investment. It is not unless maybe you are buying Da Vinci's. And also grand prices today do not guarantee grand prices in the future. Soth's work From Sleeping by the Mississippi was going for nearly 40k (I think I saw that in 2005 at Christies) in the early 2000's but now goes for 6 to 10k.

[Jac@stafford.net]

A photographer wishing to promote his work in the large market must make him/herself known to the people who make it happen - gatekeepers such as critics, curators, major gallery owners, and historians who are unfortunately subject to the aforementioned.

Good luck

Being famous has a special burden.

[Shutter20]

To be clear, I have no personal aspirations for fame and fortune, rather I'm curious about how the art market functions with regards to placing such high value on certain artists. Is it about trends? Technical skill? Subject matter? Or is it simply a matter of who has the best connections (a depressing thought!).

[Jac@stafford.net]

To be clear, I have no personal aspirations for fame and fortune, rather I'm curious about how the art market functions with regards to placing such high value on certain artists. Is it about trends? Technical skill? Subject matter? Or is it simply a matter of who has the best connections (a depressing thought!).

It is all about the value the gatekeepers, a tight, complex group place upon artists. The dynamics are in their social networks. Look to any untalented photographer raised to a superior level to determine just how impoverished the critics and curator have become.

It is time for another Dada revolution.

[Tin Can]

Turn off. Tune out. Drop in.

[jnantz]

It is time for another Dada revolution.

there isnt' enough contempt for materials / process anymore
everyone does the same olde stuff ...
( some is good, some is good-grief!)

i was just reading some duchamps this afternoon.
i couldn't agree more ..

[John Kasaian]

When I was a kid I was sent cross country on a Greyhound bus. I insisted on taking my SLR along.
My dad asked me if I knew how to make money photographing on my trip.
I didn't have the foggiest idea.
He told me to take pictures of the worst public lavatories I could find at the bus stations and send them to Greyhound,
then see how much they'd pay for the negatives :rolleyes:

[Ari]

I guess my question is what separates these two kinds of success in the art world? Why does work by Struth, Sugimoto and others go for such grand prices? Is it the clarity/ universality of their concepts? Is it about scale/ production value? Or is it that, at that high level of art, the artist becomes more important than the work itself?

Just your basic combination of bullshit, hype, image, personality, speculation and marketing.
Some good, hard-working people are at the top, and some genuine con-men are there, too.

[Jac@stafford.net]

i was just reading some duchamps this afternoon.
i couldn't agree more ..

You might appreciate my brother Andrew's work on Duchamp...

https://www.understandingduchamp.com/text.html

I apologize that his visuals, animations have been deleted. I will write back here if I find the authoritative URL.

[jnantz]

that is a fantastic website !
about halfway down there is a link to an animated timeline
https://www.understandingduchamp.com/index.html
and the bride stripped by her bachelors, bare explanation ..
great stuff !

[Old_Dick]

When I was a kid I was sent cross country on a Greyhound bus. I insisted on taking my SLR along.
My dad asked me if I knew how to make money photographing on my trip.
I didn't have the foggiest idea.
He told me to take pictures of the worst public lavatories I could find at the bus stations and send them to Greyhound,
then see how much they'd pay for the negatives :rolleyes:


John, how did it work out?

[consummate_fritterer]

Extreme/incessant promotion, geographic location, politics, luck.

[Vaughn]

The luck of the well-prepared.

[faberryman]

The luck of the well-prepared.

Which begs the question: How does one become well prepared?

[Ted R]

Sometimes I think the two main attributes for selling photographs for big bucks are print size and scarcity, as in, make it big, make only a few. I also agree with previous posts about the importance of the fine art market internal network. Say you are rich and want some big bold beautiful pictures for your walls, you may not care if they are paintings, prints or photographs but to find them you go shopping in the part of town where the fine art dealers hang out. They take you round their galleries and talk about pictures, they find out how much you want to spend, they make enquiries and keep in touch. Rich people like being pursued by hungry dealers :D
The point is that dealers need a supply of pictures, and quite possibly they deal mostly not with the artist but with the artist's agent and/or manager. So perhaps some of the people who are successful selling big-buck prints are those with the better agents and managers.

[mdarnton]

It's self-comforting to think that one's failure has been at the hands of gatekeepers and anonymous snobs, but the brutal fact is that he that tooteth not his own horn, that same horn it shall not be tooted.

[Serge S]

So I think if there were a simple answer that the art market would be a predictable investment. It is not unless maybe you are buying Da Vinci's. And also grand prices today do not guarantee grand prices in the future. Soth's work From Sleeping by the Mississippi was going for nearly 40k (I think I saw that in 2005 at Christies) in the early 2000's but now goes for 6 to 10k.

The French painter Bouguereau's work was highly prized in the 1880's and then academic painters fell out of favor and his prices never came back.
His work is still valued but not near it's apex.

[Tin Can]

It's self-comforting to think that one's failure has been at the hands of gatekeepers and anonymous snobs, but the brutal fact is that he that tooteth not his own horn, that same horn it shall not be tooted.

I thought ye fiddle not...:)

[John Kasaian]

John, how did it work out?
Sort of like the frozen turkey pinhole camera, it began to stink terribly.

[Vaughn]

"Luck favors the well prepared"


Which begs the question: How does one become well prepared?

By being unlucky a lot, perhaps...in other words, practice.
By training oneself to look for the possibilities in a situation and not to concentrate on the limitations.
By making good art.

[Merg Ross]

Hello,

There's something I've been thinking about and I'm wondering if you lovely people would share your opinions and ideas. It's in regards to levels of success that certain fine art photographers have garnered.



You may find a partial answer to your query here:

https://qz.com/103091/high-end-art-is-one-of-the-most-manipulated-markets-in-the-world/

[Jim Fitzgerald]

You may find a partial answer to your query here:

https://qz.com/103091/high-end-art-is-one-of-the-most-manipulated-markets-in-the-world/

Merg, thanks for posting this link. It is a very interesting article.

[Peter Collins]

"Luck favors the well prepared" reminds me of another truism:
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment."

[Sfroza]

"Luck is when skill meets opportunity".

[John Layton]

...more like when skill recognizes opportunity!

[Alan Gales]

What is success?

Mozart is considered a genius but Justin Beiber made a whole lot more money. A hundred years from now Mozart will still be considered a genius but no one will remember Justin Bieber.

[bob carnie]

Which begs the question: How does one become well prepared?

Being consistent and walking forward with a stiff chin.

[Ari]

What is success?

Mozart is considered a genius but Justin Beiber made a whole lot more money. A hundred years from now Mozart will still be considered a genius but no one will remember Justin Bieber.

Mozart who? Biebs is a genius.

[Jim Jones]

Mozart who? Biebs is a genius.

Mozart was pushed into proficiency as a child. He continued to work hard and become even better throughout his short life. What has Bieber ever done that has enduring quality?

[Ari]

Mozart was pushed into proficiency as a child. He continued to work hard and become even better throughout his short life. What has Bieber ever done that has enduring quality?

Well Biebs did own a pet monkey, and he's a pretty deep thinker, too. Witness:
“Everyone, when they start growing up, realizes, ‘Man, I did some dumb shit when I was younger.’ It’s not just me.… If I could go back, I wouldn’t really change much. I think it’s all my journey. That stuff made me who I am.”

Tongue firmly in cheek, Jim.

[Alan Gales]

Mozart who? Biebs is a genius.

Ari, are you just sticking up for Biebs because he is from Canada?

Substitute your fellow Canadians Neil Young or Geddy Lee for Justin Bieber and I might agree with you! ;)

[Ari]

Alan, I couldn't even tell you one of his "songs" if it were playing on the radio.
Then again, what's Mozart done for us lately? :)

[Alan Gales]

Alan, I couldn't even tell you one of his "songs" if it were playing on the radio.
Then again, what's Mozart done for us lately? :)

I can understand that. All today's pop music sounds the same to me. I've heard that most of the hits are written by one of two people.

I think Mozart must of retired. I haven't heard anything new from him lately either! :rolleyes:

[Kirk Gittings]

Mozart who? Biebs is a genius.

Joe Mozart I think. He is a street musician up by the U. His jar is always full of donations so he must be successful.

[Alan Gales]

Joe Mozart I think. He is a street musician up by the U. His jar is always full of donations so he must be successful.

Yeah, I think Joe is a lot more successful than that Bob Beethoven fellow even though Bob has that famous song "Beethoven's fifth of whisky".

[John Kasaian]

When I was an instructor at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University, I accompanied the choir on a concert tour of Europe as one of the chaperones.
Our tour of course made a stop at Beeethoven's grave, but there was a strange sound coming from underground.
Being an engineering school, the student's curiosities were piqued and they returned with hi tech recording gear and sonar equipment to discover what the unusual sound was and where it was coming from, but to no avail.
Until somebody played a tape of the noise backwards.
It was the sound of Beethoven De-composing.

Hmmmm.....I've got to work a bear into this joke.

[John Layton]

Beethoven De-Composing? Was this before or after he rolled over? (yeah...there's definitely a bear in here somewhere!)

[Alan Gales]

Alan, I couldn't even tell you one of his "songs" if it were playing on the radio.
Then again, what's Mozart done for us lately? :)

You know, Ari, at first I didn't think you were being fair to Mozart but look here. Jimi is putting out a new album.

https://www.usnews.com/news/entertainment/articles/2017-12-06/new-jimi-hendrix-album-with-unreleased-songs-coming-in-march

[Tin Can]

You know, Ari, at first I didn't think you were being fair to Mozart but look here. Jimi is putting out a new album.

https://www.usnews.com/news/entertainment/articles/2017-12-06/new-jimi-hendrix-album-with-unreleased-songs-coming-in-march

I can say I saw and heard Jimi live in Chicago. The Soft Machine played first and put me to sleep. Then we waited at least an hour for Jimi. Finally, 2 guys fireman carried him on stage. The 2 guys held him up, strapped his guitar on and placed his hands in the correct places. The guys left, Jimi just stood there for a while. Then he started playing very slowly and quietly.

The audience was silent. Jimi sped up and in 20 minutes he was 'Electric'! I figure the guys gave him coke or speed. It was 1968, in the fantasic Auditorium Theater, built in 1889 shuttered in 1941 had just reopened. i love going there. The last thing I saw was ballet in box seats.

I never forget Jimi Hendrix.

[Alan Gales]

I can say I saw and heard Jimi live in Chicago. The Soft Machine played first and put me to sleep. Then we waited at least an hour for Jimi. Finally, 2 guys fireman carried him on stage. The 2 guys held him up, strapped his guitar on and placed his hands in the correct places. The guys left, Jimi just stood there for a while. Then he started playing very slowly and quietly.

The audience was silent. Jimi sped up and in 20 minutes he was 'Electric'! I figure the guys gave him coke or speed. It was 1968, in the fantasic Auditorium Theater, built in 1889 shuttered in 1941 had just reopened. i love going there. The last thing I saw was ballet in box seats.

I never forget Jimi Hendrix.

I'm envious, Randy. Jimi died a month before I turned 9 years old so I was too young to see him. I've got DVD's of him playing though. It's the best I can do but I would have loved to have seen him live.

[Merg Ross]

Merg, thanks for posting this link. It is a very interesting article.

Most welcome, Jim. Gallery promotion can be important to future success. I was recently looking at the catalogue from a 1961 exhibition in Boston. The selection jury included Minor White and Walter Chappell. Twenty-five photographers were chosen. Of interest were the print prices at that time: Paul Caponigro and Carl Chiarenza set the upper limit at $75 and $80 respectively. Jerry Uelsmann and mine were at $15, and Ralph Meatyard at $25. Paul and Carl had gallery representation at Siembab Gallery, the other three had none. This is where it sometimes starts for those few who go on to fame and fortune in the art world; gallery representation. Of course, not always.

Contrast these prices to those of seven years later (1968); an Ansel Adams 11x14 print for $100, or a Brett Weston print of Garrapata Beach for $40. Neither had gallery affiliation at the time.

This is a bit of history, and only offered as such. However, it is fascinating to observe the photography market as it has progressed. Edward Weston, who died in 1958 with three-hundred dollars in the bank, has had prints selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars at auction.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Merg, you have been there and know what it takes. I'm searching for the right path and your experience and the stories in your wonderful book are very helpful and inspirational. Thanks for what you give to the photographic community.

[Tin Can]

I firmly believe in, 'Artists’ Residual Rights for Sale of Artwork: California’s Resale Royalties Act'.

Artists lose and speculators win way too often.

http://cypressllp.com/insight/artists-residual-rights-for-sale-of-artwork-californias-resale-royalties-act/

[Jim Jones]

OTOH, while it takes an artist to consistently create fine art, it often takes a speculator or competent gallery to make him famous.