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View Full Version : new into LF: 4x5 Camera and lens recommendation



rallodi
15-Aug-2017, 07:47
Hello,

I have used digital, 35mm and medium format in all combinations 6x4,5 6x6 6x8 6x9.
I am this kind of perfectionist person that does not only enjoy the result but that values a lot the process. I am sure that LF was invented for me ;-)

The question is from where to start !

I thought that a good 4x5 is the sensible option.
I read a lot but I could not find an answer to this question. Perhaps because there is not a single answer.

Here are my requirements:


Portable (which does not necessarily means "folding") - I guess that monorail are out.

It means that it should be suitable to carry in a backpack so it can be used for landscapes
Portrait and landscape formats
Front movements (as much as possible, but I guess that this is a common requirement)
Back movements (Scheimpflug Principle)
Normal lens, tele and wide to the possible extend.
Wide lens bellows option
I prefer to spend some more money now than to change gear later
I would not mind to buy second hand in good condition
View finder needed (not to get mad with the movements at the begining)
I live in Germany


Camera

I have been looking at the "Shen Hao" and with the requirements above I am thinking on the TZ45-IIC (folding) or TFC45-IIC (non-folding).
What do you think ? Please propose any other alternative.

Lenses

I may have a working 300mm and 210mm. I say may because I am not sure if they are in working conditions.
Therefore I thought that a 150mm could be a good start. Nikkor ?
Any other recommendation ?

Other required gear ?

Focusing magnifier and recommendation ? - I am afraid of the lack of light to manage the image composition and focusing.
Film holders and compatibility ? - I believe that the film holders are kind of standard but I am not sure. Could someone help me here also ?


I apologise in advance if there are other post answering these questions. I could not find them.
I also thank any answer in advance. I am very excited about the new path where this purchase would lead me. Any advice, comment even criticism will be welcome.

Thanks again

Regards

Ra

AJ Edmondson
15-Aug-2017, 08:47
Ra... welcome to the Forum. You probably would be best served by delving a little more into LF here on the site in order to gain a little more insight into the variations available. Having said that I will suggest a folder since you possibly have a couple of lenses already (do they have shutters and are the shutters working?). Monorails are usually the least expensive and generally have more movements than you are likely to use but they are also inconvenient to transport (there are some exceptions to this but they are also fairly expensive in Germany - you can go the internet route but Customs and VAT usually add significant cost. I assume you are considering a rangefinder - not viewfinder - and that will be a significant cost for both the camera and cams. The ground-glass is your viewfinder and you will need some time to become accustomed to using it but it can't be avoided if you want to become proficient... what you see is what you get.

Joel

Peter Collins
15-Aug-2017, 09:03
Welcome, Ra!

First, with the lenses you have: There is a shutter speed tester available for iPhone and Android, developed by Lukas Fritz in Germany--
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/shutter-speed/id560154244?mt=8
and
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.plug.photo.shutter_speed&hl=en

Second, you might look into Chamonix cameras. I have the 45N-2 and it is the best I've owned in terms of workmanship and ease of use. Very simple; some here would say too simple. (I've owned an old Arca-Swiss, Ikeda, 2 Wisners.) With the extension accessory I can use my Nikkor M 300mm f9 lens using the standard bellows. Yes, this just one person's experience and opinion!

BUT, there are many, many options re cameras.

Third, whether your next lens is a 150, or other, look at the lenses you most commonly use in your other formats. Convert those focal lengths to equivalents in 4x5. This might give you some places from which to start. For example, I purchased a 90mm f8 Fujinon years ago, but I find that I seldom use it. If I had thought about it some more, considered what I used when I shot 35mm, I might have skipped that lens!

This forum has been for me like a library populated by research librarians! I hope you have the same experience. And I hope that you can link up with other large format photographers in your country!

fredfoto
15-Aug-2017, 09:27
Hi rallodi,

If you want a 4x5 to go hiking with a backpack, and looking at your well thought out requirements- I'd look at the Linhof Technikardan (I had the 6x9 for years and loved it), with some very light- weight process lenses in the range of 150/210/240 like G Clarons or Rodenstock/ Nikon equivalents. Even with f9 maximum apertures, you'll have enough light to focus with a dark cloth. I've hiked this rig up the Picos de Europa in my youth, no problems.
You'll need a wide lens too- but that's up to you- 90 is wide on 4x5, but some like a 65.
You are in Germany, so you are already in the best place to find this new or second hand. Try these guys- http://www.greiner-photo.de or eBay.
I use a Schneider loupe to focus. 4x5 Fidelity Film holders are standard for camera backs- I have 10- it saves changing film on location and carrying a changing bag.
You don't need a viewfinder with a 4x5 camera. YMMV.
Buy yourself a good spot meter- Sekonic still make a great one.

Good luck!!

Luis-F-S
15-Aug-2017, 10:11
Camera: I'd get a used wooden Wista or any of it's clones. Best bang for the buck! - it should handle a 90 mm lens, if you need wider, Get a Sinar F2!
Lens: I'd get a 210 f5.6-6.3 in any of it's iterations in a Copal shutter. They're basically giving them away at auction.
Holders, yes, get some-Fidelity or Lisco or Regal as long as they're plastic.

L

rallodi
15-Aug-2017, 12:18
Ra... welcome to the Forum. You probably would be best served by delving a little more into LF here on the site in order to gain a little more insight into the variations available. Having said that I will suggest a folder since you possibly have a couple of lenses already (do they have shutters and are the shutters working?). Monorails are usually the least expensive and generally have more movements than you are likely to use but they are also inconvenient to transport (there are some exceptions to this but they are also fairly expensive in Germany - you can go the internet route but Customs and VAT usually add significant cost. I assume you are considering a rangefinder - not viewfinder - and that will be a significant cost for both the camera and cams. The ground-glass is your viewfinder and you will need some time to become accustomed to using it but it can't be avoided if you want to become proficient... what you see is what you get.

Joel

Thanks for your answer Joe.
I have been reading the forum already for a while, but to be honest is somehow difficult to find information as the posts are disconnected or at least I could not find the logic.

The shutters of the lenses that I have are compur Electronic 1. they miss the battery and I need some help with the polarity of the battery. I have posted asking for help on this also: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?140586-Compur-Electronic-1-Battery-holder

With "viewfiner" I meant something like this: http://www.shen-hao.com/productsabout.aspx?i=968&id=n3
http://www.shen-hao.com/Postimage/big/20110520102816.jpg

Thanks once more for your help.

GG12
15-Aug-2017, 12:35
Focusing magnifier and recommendation ? - I am afraid of the lack of light to manage the image composition and focusing.


The large ground glass (GG) is both the best and worst of LF. You get to see the whole picture, WYSIWYG, so that's wonderful. OK, its upside down, but more importantly, its dim. Corners are sometimes hard. There are a few ways to improve, but the dark cloth, or black T-shirt mounted as a tube you look through, are the best answers. I've used one of those viewfinders, but they are hard in the corners, and want to be at just the right place and angle - which is not easy. Better to struggle with the GG, and get a magnifier that can angle for the corners. I think Silvestri makes a nice 6X for that purpose. Good luck!

Jim Noel
15-Aug-2017, 12:39
The "viewfinder" you picture is used by a few. To start with you are better off to try a dark cloth about 4x5 feet with weights in the corners to help hold it in a mild wind. i have found that students get very confused and have trouble focusing with a device similar to what you have in mind.

Luis-F-S
15-Aug-2017, 12:42
"Viewfinder": Get a dark cloth and some 5x readers from your optometrist!

rallodi
15-Aug-2017, 13:11
"Viewfinder": Get a dark cloth and some 5x readers from your optometrist!


The "viewfinder" you picture is used by a few. To start with you are better off to try a dark cloth about 4x5 feet with weights in the corners to help hold it in a mild wind. i have found that students get very confused and have trouble focusing with a device similar to what you have in mind.


The large ground glass (GG) is both the best and worst of LF. You get to see the whole picture, WYSIWYG, so that's wonderful. OK, its upside down, but more importantly, its dim. Corners are sometimes hard. There are a few ways to improve, but the dark cloth, or black T-shirt mounted as a tube you look through, are the best answers. I've used one of those viewfinders, but they are hard in the corners, and want to be at just the right place and angle - which is not easy. Better to struggle with the GG, and get a magnifier that can angle for the corners. I think Silvestri makes a nice 6X for that purpose. Good luck!

Noted
Thank you !

rallodi
15-Aug-2017, 13:22
Welcome, Ra![/[QUOTE]

Thank you Peter.

[QUOTE]

First, with the lenses you have: There is a shutter speed tester available for iPhone and Android, developed by Lukas Fritz in Germany--
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/shutter-speed/id560154244?mt=8
and
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.plug.photo.shutter_speed&hl=en



As soon as I solve my question on the polarity of the shutter, this will be very useful.
Thanks a lot !!



Second, you might look into Chamonix cameras. I have the 45N-2 and it is the best I've owned in terms of workmanship and ease of use. Very simple; some here would say too simple. (I've owned an old Arca-Swiss, Ikeda, 2 Wisners.) With the extension accessory I can use my Nikkor M 300mm f9 lens using the standard bellows. Yes, this just one person's experience and opinion!


I took a look at the Chamonix. What I read is that their movements are more limited, specially in the back. This is why I have a preference for the Shen Hao



BUT, there are many, many options re cameras.


This is exactly my problem :-)




Third, whether your next lens is a 150, or other, look at the lenses you most commonly use in your other formats. Convert those focal lengths to equivalents in 4x5. This might give you some places from which to start. For example, I purchased a 90mm f8 Fujinon years ago, but I find that I seldom use it. If I had thought about it some more, considered what I used when I shot 35mm, I might have skipped that lens!


In 35mm this would be between 35mm and 45mm (115mm to 150mm in LF if I am not mistaking)



This forum has been for me like a library populated by research librarians! I hope you have the same experience. And I hope that you can link up with other large format photographers in your country!

Thanks exactly the idea.
A friend of mine has a Toyo field with a 115mm that I have managed once ... this was my full experience in LF. But as someone said, the longest trip starts with on step.

Bill_1856
15-Aug-2017, 13:22
I've been using various 4x5 cameras for nearly 70 years. I have 4x5 Linhof Technika, Nagaoka, Crown Graphic, Busch Pressman, and some monorail cameras (In addition to many 9x12 cm folders).
Based on your requirements (and location) I'm sure that a good Linhof Technica would meet your needs. (No separate wide-angle bellows needed for a Technika).
Recommend a Model V or Master. Be sure that the bellows is in good condition -- they do deteriorate and are expensive to replace.

rallodi
15-Aug-2017, 13:29
Hi rallodi,

If you want a 4x5 to go hiking with a backpack, and looking at your well thought out requirements- I'd look at the Linhof Technikardan (I had the 6x9 for years and loved it), with some very light- weight process lenses in the range of 150/210/240 like G Clarons or Rodenstock/ Nikon equivalents. Even with f9 maximum apertures, you'll have enough light to focus with a dark cloth. I've hiked this rig up the Picos de Europa in my youth, no problems.


Hello.

I definitely have to check it. Thanks for the information.



You'll need a wide lens too- but that's up to you- 90 is wide on 4x5, but some like a 65.
You are in Germany, so you are already in the best place to find this new or second hand. Try these guys- http://www.greiner-photo.de or eBay.


Thanks again for the tip.



I use a Schneider loupe to focus.


This was my other alternative.
You guys have convinced me already.




4x5 Fidelity Film holders are standard for camera backs- I have 10- it saves changing film on location and carrying a changing bag.
You don't need a viewfinder with a 4x5 camera. YMMV.


Understood.



Buy yourself a good spot meter- Sekonic still make a great one.


I have two good gossen spots (Gossen Spot and startlite).



Good luck!!

Thanks

Bob Salomon
15-Aug-2017, 13:29
I've been using various 4x5 cameras for nearly 70 years. I have 4x5 Linhof Technika, Nagaoka, Crown Graphic, Busch Pressman, and some monorail cameras (In addition to many 9x12 cm folders).
Based on your requirements (and location) I'm sure that a good Linhof Technica would meet your needs. (No separate wide-angle bellows needed for a Technika).
Recommend a Model V or Master. Be sure that the bellows is in good condition -- they do deteriorate and are expensive to replace.
Good suggestion. But you also need to make sure it is mechanically in good shape as well. Repairs are expensive.

rallodi
15-Aug-2017, 13:30
Camera: I'd get a used wooden Wista or any of it's clones. Best bang for the buck! - it should handle a 90 mm lens, if you need wider, Get a Sinar F2!
Lens: I'd get a 210 f5.6-6.3 in any of it's iterations in a Copal shutter. They're basically giving them away at auction.
Holders, yes, get some-Fidelity or Lisco or Regal as long as they're plastic.

L

Thanks a lot Luis.

rallodi
15-Aug-2017, 13:31
I've been using various 4x5 cameras for nearly 70 years. I have 4x5 Linhof Technika, Nagaoka, Crown Graphic, Busch Pressman, and some monorail cameras (In addition to many 9x12 cm folders).
Based on your requirements (and location) I'm sure that a good Linhof Technica would meet your needs. (No separate wide-angle bellows needed for a Technika).
Recommend a Model V or Master. Be sure that the bellows is in good condition -- they do deteriorate and are expensive to replace.

Noted ! Thanks also for the tip.
I need to check it.

Huub
16-Aug-2017, 01:01
When it comes to lenses, the consesus is more or less that almost all lenses that have been produced over the past 60, 70 years from Fuji, Nikon, Rodenstock and Schneider and possibly also from other makers like Topcor are more then good enough for most of us photographers. I would recommend to do a read on the home page of this forum to get some more information and then add a 150mm and a 90mm to your collection to have a nice set that covers your criteria. Image circle would be my prime selection criterium, followed by filter size, as i do have a complete filter set on 67mm and i don't want to go bigger. Multi coating makes it a bit easier to shoot against the sun, but a good lenshood will help a lot with single coated lenses.

Also: comparisons of lenses between formats is of limited value. When browsing through is forum you will find numerous entries about it. But the only real proof is shooting with a set of lenses for a while and work form there. Large format lenses are cheap these days and for a few hunderd euro's you can always add something new to your collection.

One of the great things about large format is that almost anything can be made to fit everything. This is especially true for film holders. All modern holders fit on almost all modern camera's of the same size. And modern means one that is made after the war. Any 4x5 holder from Linhof, Toyo, Lisco, Riteway et cetera will fit these backs and do their job nicely, unles they are broken of course. And by the way: also 9x12 holders will fit as will various rollfilm holders, making it possible to shoot 120 film.

martinf5
16-Aug-2017, 02:05
Hi,

I drove this road three times now and ended up with a Chamonix 45n2 which seems to me the best solution for a beginning in LF.
I had a old MPP form UK, than a beautifull Shen Hao, both have been sold after a while.
Now I'm able to compare my experiences from all the three cameras and the Chamonix is the best of all.
I got mine with 4 lenes, 58, 75, 135 and 250mm and I can go on with all of them.
With the Shen Hao I had probs with wide angle lenses and I think mechanics are too fiddly.
After getting the Chamonix I needed some spares and a little help form the manufacturer and this was due to Hugo the best experience I ever had with a device.

Jeff Keller
16-Aug-2017, 09:36
If you often carry your camera on the tripod while moving from spot to spot, a Technikardan or Canham DLC45 would be good choices. If you nearly always take your camera off the tripod when moving from spot to spot, it would be hard to beat a Technika (they set up quickly).

jeff