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Daniel Unkefer
8-Jul-2017, 05:36
Taking inspiration from this beautiful camera I found on Flikr, I have decided to build my own version. "The Sinar Norma Handy" camera!


https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7236/7220011100_ac393c194c_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/c11rL1)LX3L7044 (https://flic.kr/p/c11rL1) by Andrei Badoiu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/65095569@N00/), on Flickr


https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7230/7220010658_a93f7cd18e_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/c11rCo)LX3L7053 (https://flic.kr/p/c11rCo) by Andrei Badoiu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/65095569@N00/), on Flickr


Here I have acquired a Norma Auxiliary Frame (just for this project!) and removed the extra unnecessary pieces. I then removed the two Sinar metal male screws at the top and bottom, by removing the cotter pin holding them in. I'm going to add this homemade wooden pistol grip I bought on Ebay for $10.

I will drill a hole front top center of the grip and insert a cable release to trip the shutter on the 65mm F8 Schneider Super Angulon. Still need to find one in nice condition. And an appropriate viewfinder, and Bubble Level will need to be attached. I'm going to take my time designing and building this.

Here's the wooden grip.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4209/35406484060_af8063da75_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/VWKuaJ)Sinar Handy Grip (https://flic.kr/p/VWKuaJ) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr


My project thus far:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4266/35795082305_c0738d4e8a_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Wx69Tt)Sinar Norma Handy Parts (https://flic.kr/p/Wx69Tt) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Comments(and ideas!) Please!

-Dan

Daniel Unkefer
8-Jul-2017, 06:06
A few more pix of the camera that has inspired me.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7078/7220009680_50e1eb3805_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/c11rkw)LX3L7048 (https://flic.kr/p/c11rkw) by Andrei Badoiu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/65095569@N00/), on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7077/7220011514_281039b5ed_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/c11rT9)LX3L7051 (https://flic.kr/p/c11rT9) by Andrei Badoiu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/65095569@N00/), on Flickr




Comments? :)

Daniel Unkefer
8-Jul-2017, 07:40
And here is the Sinar Handy Norma Viewfinder I think I will acquire:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4237/34956731914_e49ef79940_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Vg1owo)Sinar Norma Handy Viewfinder (https://flic.kr/p/Vg1owo) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

And I just bought this cold shoe mount. All I have to do is tap out the Norma built-in shoe to fit the mounting screw on the cold shoe

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4288/35756653046_7eb10139a2_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WtGcd3)Sinar Norma Handy Cold Shoe (https://flic.kr/p/WtGcd3) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Daniel Unkefer
8-Jul-2017, 08:48
If I take one of these apart, it would probably be a good fit on the "Norma Handy"

Easy to take apart and modify.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4254/35665656021_613823b0bf_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WkDNXP)Sinar Handy Norma Bubble Level (https://flic.kr/p/WkDNXP) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Jerry Bodine
8-Jul-2017, 10:39
Daniel - Just curious. Why do you feel you need a bubble level on a hand-held camera? The first photo seems to show a tripod mount using what looks like maybe a Hasselblad piece that fits the Hasselblad Quick-Disconnect accessory, which you're replacing with the wooden pistol grip. Also the Sinar back is designed for using 2 hands to insert the film holder, but you're using one hand to hold the pistol grip; it seems you need 3 hands. Am I missing something?

Jac@stafford.net
8-Jul-2017, 11:41
Daniel - Just curious. Why do you feel you need a bubble level on a hand-held camera? The first photo seems to show a tripod mount using what looks like maybe a Hasselblad piece that fits the Hasselblad Quick-Disconnect accessory, which you're replacing with the wooden pistol grip. Also the Sinar back is designed for using 2 hands to insert the film holder, but you're using one hand to hold the pistol grip; it seems you need 3 hands. Am I missing something?

I'm pretty sure the Hasselblad level is designed to fit on the left side of the Hasselblad body.

Grip: I'm partially handicapped in my left hand, and grips are very important to me. To date, the very best ergonomic grip is the Rollei intended for their TLR. What is not apparent in the photo is that it has a left twist that is natural to the right hand. It requires a slightly tapered tripod mount which is easy to make, even from a short stack of washers of different sizes (to taper).

See the grip here. KEH. (https://www.keh.com/shop/rollei-pistol-grip-for-rollei-twin-lens-reflex-cameras-265576.html)

Aside: The Plaubel Veriwide can use the same grip! It clips right on. (Not the Brooks Veriwide)

Daniel Unkefer
8-Jul-2017, 13:45
Camera building is FUN! :) Here are the results of my initial effort today. I figured out how I wanted to attach the grip, and that is done and I am satisfied with the result. Went to Lowes for parts and was able to get what I needed to do the job. A lot of metal cutting was required to get this right (trial and error). It takes 4x5 holders without too much juggling (for me). Here it is shown with one of my Linhof holders. I'm not now thinking I want a bubble level; This camera will never be on a tripod. If I want straight lines I will use one of my Normas. This is going to be a work in progress. I like how this thing handles, this is my first experience with a "Handy". Onward and upward. Eventually I want a Norma era Sinar Grip, but for now this gets me going.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4212/35633936622_e605122dfa_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WhReTC)Sinar Norma Handy Initial Build (https://flic.kr/p/WhReTC) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr


https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4218/35414739480_c5820febd4_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/VXtNdy)Sinar Handy (https://flic.kr/p/VXtNdy) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

The later Handy; The F Black bail mechanism is a lot stiffer than the Norma; I prefer the Norma mechanism myself. This will work fine with my Liscos and Fidelity 4x5 and 9x12 holders. :)

Bob Salomon
8-Jul-2017, 14:46
Camera building is FUN! :) Here are the results of my initial effort today. I figured out how I wanted to attach the grip, and that is done and I am satisfied with the result. Went to Lowes for parts and was able to get what I needed to do the job. A lot of metal cutting was required to get this right (trial and error). It takes 4x5 holders without too much juggling (for me). Here it is shown with one of my Linhof (springy pressure plate holders).
I'm not now thinking I want a bubble level; This camera will never be on a tripod. If I want straight lines I will use one of my Normas. This is going to be a work in progress. I like how this thing handles, this is my first experience with a "Handy". Onward and upward. Eventually I want a Norma era Sinar Grip, those tend to go for big Bucks $$$ Ten Bucks gets me going with this one.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4212/35633936622_e605122dfa_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WhReTC)Sinar Norma Handy Initial Build (https://flic.kr/p/WhReTC) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr


https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4218/35414739480_c5820febd4_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/VXtNdy)Sinar Handy (https://flic.kr/p/VXtNdy) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

The later Handy; The F Black bail mechanism is a lot stiffer than the Norma; I prefer the Norma mechanism myself. This will work fine with my Liscos and Fidelity 4x5 and 9x12 holders. :)

It is not a "spring pressure plate holder" it is a Linhof Glass Plate/Sheet Film Holder. The plate makes up for the difference in thickness between glass plates and sheet film.

Jerry Bodine
8-Jul-2017, 16:08
Am I correct in assuming the 65mm is short enough that a focusing mount is not necessary? I've never used a lens that short in 4x5. Would close-ups require a focusing mount (and tripod), or is that reserved for the monorail?

Daniel Unkefer
8-Jul-2017, 16:36
Am I correct in assuming the 65mm is short enough that a focusing mount is not necessary? I've never used a lens that short in 4x5. Would close-ups require a focusing mount (and tripod), or is that reserved for the monorail?

Hey Jerry,

I guess it's a little hard to tell in the photos, but there is a Schneider Focusing Mount permanently attached to the Norma lens board. It's an original Norma item (in the original catalog) and I bought it cheaply years ago, with the intent of someday building a Norma Handy. I have an extensive inventory of original Norma items, and I intend this camera to become part of that. The focusing mount was designed for the Schneider 65mm F8 Super Angulon in #00 shutter, which was also an original Norma lens. It's a scale focusing helical designed for that specific lens, and it focuses from infinity to 3.5 feet per the markings on the helical. Just guess focus and shoot. The Handy was intended for large format hand held photography. I don't think I will be using mine on a tripod. Then it becomes "not so Handy" :)

Jac@stafford.net
8-Jul-2017, 16:39
Am I correct in assuming the 65mm is short enough that a focusing mount is not necessary?

For me, a focusing mount is always needed, even on my 4x5" (nominal) cameras with a 47mm f/5.6 or f/8 Super-Angulon.
.

Daniel Unkefer
8-Jul-2017, 16:41
It is not a "spring pressure plate holder" it is a Linhof Glass Plate/Sheet Film Holder. The plate makes up for the difference in thickness between glass plates and sheet film.

Thanks Mr. Solomon. :)

Daniel Unkefer
8-Jul-2017, 17:08
An image shot with the Sinar Norma Handy by the owner of the camera in the first post. Unfortunately he had a light leak. But you get the idea of the 65mm F8 Super Angulon

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7046/7007101966_dfaa5e9cff_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/bFcehS)Scan-120325-0006 (https://flic.kr/p/bFcehS) by Andrei Badoiu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/65095569@N00/), on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7238/7007102702_c4140fb466_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/bFcevy)Scan-120506-0015 (https://flic.kr/p/bFcevy) by Andrei Badoiu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/65095569@N00/), on Flickr

Daniel Unkefer
8-Jul-2017, 17:10
An image shot with the Sinar Norma Handy by the owner of the camera in the first post. Unfortunately he had a light leak. But you get the idea of the 65mm F8 Super Angulon

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7046/7007101966_dfaa5e9cff_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/bFcehS)Scan-120325-0006 (https://flic.kr/p/bFcehS) by Andrei Badoiu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/65095569@N00/), on Flickr

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5240/7007103424_a3794e28c0_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/bFceJ1)Scan-120506-0017 (https://flic.kr/p/bFceJ1) by Andrei Badoiu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/65095569@N00/), on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7059/7153194849_54d64fe7bb_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/bU6ZBF)Scan-120506-0019 (https://flic.kr/p/bU6ZBF) by Andrei Badoiu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/65095569@N00/), on Flickr

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8147/7007105400_47e305a1e4_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/bFcfj5)Scan-120506-0020 (https://flic.kr/p/bFcfj5) by Andrei Badoiu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/65095569@N00/), on Flickr

Daniel Unkefer
8-Jul-2017, 17:16
One more

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7072/7007096666_b37dfd9abd_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/bFccHu)Scan-120325-0002 (https://flic.kr/p/bFccHu) by Andrei Badoiu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/65095569@N00/), on Flickr

Daniel Unkefer
9-Jul-2017, 07:00
Here's the camera after the initial build. I used JB Weld to hold the parts together tightly, and it has worked very well. The metal epoxy is dry and the camera is very solid. To finish the camera, I will need a viewfinder (I ordered a Gaoersi 65mm/4x5, I hope it will work OK!), and add the cold shoe (I tapped both holes in the Norma Auxiliary frame to 1/4"). Finally, I'm looking for a 65mm F8 Schneider Super Angulon in #00 Compur. I have a 65mm F8 but it has Norma Rabbit ears, and no shutter (it works with the Norma Mechanical Shutter). So I am getting closer. I'm in no hurry to finish this. Oh Yes, I have to drill a hole in the grip for a long cable release. Also I will take the Norma parts completely apart and clean them, check light seals, clean helical, etc.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4230/35683459891_7bb3dac50d_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Wne4r6)Norma Handy Initial Build (https://flic.kr/p/Wne4r6) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4255/35683471951_0a50700e60_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Wne822)Norma Handy Initial Build 2 (https://flic.kr/p/Wne822) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

It is surprisingly light in weight so far. Very Handy! :)

Daniel Unkefer
9-Jul-2017, 07:48
Last one. Now waiting for additional parts.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4287/35428211760_d4ec4ca2cb_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/VYER4f)Norma Handy Initial Build 3 (https://flic.kr/p/VYER4f) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Daniel Unkefer
13-Jul-2017, 20:36
Here the finder shoe has been added to the camera. So now I am waiting to receive the 65mm Optical Viewfinder, and I just paid for a Schneider 65mm F8 Schneider Super Angulon in Compur #00 from KEH. So the camera will be soon completed! :)

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4306/35869665686_ea8d94c714_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WDFpVQ)Sinar Norma Handy Finder Shoe (https://flic.kr/p/WDFpVQ) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Daniel Unkefer
17-Jul-2017, 05:09
Here is a modern "Handy" type of camera from China. Very similar to mine in many respects. Seeing this has given me a few ideas. It utilizes the same viewfinder as my camera.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4214/35755364201_48029235db_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WtzA5z)4x5 Handy type camera from China (https://flic.kr/p/WtzA5z) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4307/35498826350_73deda7fdc_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/W5ULjb)Handy type camera from China 3 (https://flic.kr/p/W5ULjb) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Daniel Unkefer
19-Jul-2017, 12:36
Well now we are getting somewhere. The lens arrived from KEH and it's a beauty. Very sharp on the groundglass, and WOW it's wide. I dug out my Norma-Era Sinar Reflex Viewfinder and I can see the whole screen edge to edge and it looks great to me!

The optical viewfinder is on it's way from China and then I will start to use the camera. This will be a blast............

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4326/35641245450_bca627855c_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WiuGxU)Norma Handy with lens! (https://flic.kr/p/WiuGxU) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Daniel Unkefer
30-Jul-2017, 08:12
Here is my home made Sinar Norma Handy camera, with a 6x9cm Graflex Back. Indeed in this configuration this camera is quite "Handy". Weighs almost nothing, balances well in my hand. The 65mm viewfinder from China is now in Chicago, so I should have it in a few days.

The Graflex back is loaded with 120 respooled 70mm Plus-X Aergraphic 2402, hand rolled by Bennini, and came all the way from Italy.

This will be a hoot to shoot with. I am going to drill out the handle and fit a long cable release to go to the 65mm F8 Super Angulon Compur #00 shutter. Then it is finally done.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4314/35870771710_5447e69139_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WDM5Hd)Sinar Norma Handy 6x9 Graflex Back 70mm 2402 (https://flic.kr/p/WDM5Hd) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr




Here's the new viewfinder coming from China. Sure hope it works out for me.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4237/34956731914_e49ef79940_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Vg1owo)Sinar Norma Handy Viewfinder (https://flic.kr/p/Vg1owo) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Jerry Bodine
30-Jul-2017, 08:41
Great progress, Dan. I'm wondering if you'll be able to get your eye close enough to the viewfinder to see the whole gg with the roll film holder in place... or with a film holder inserted for vertical composition.

Daniel Unkefer
30-Jul-2017, 08:55
Hey Jerry,

With the Graflex back you have to remove the Norma GG on the Norma Plate Holder Adapter, and secure the Graflex roll holder with the Graphmatic clips on the plate adapter.

As far as verticals go, I will turn the camera 90 degrees and shoot that way. A 4x5 plate does not block the viewfinder shooting horizontally, as far as I can tell. I have old Sinar literature that shows them turning the camera 90 degrees for a vertical. So I will do that and see how it goes.

Sinar made a rotating Handy viewfinder, mounted on a tall block. But that is for the modern Handy camera, not the Norma. I bet that would take 4x5 plates vertically............. But I would shudder to think what it originally cost ! And I want Norma, not modern Sinar. I am a Norma purist :)

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4310/35871907530_2ba3a06f9d_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WDSUmj)modern Sinar Handy (https://flic.kr/p/WDSUmj) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Daniel Unkefer
30-Jul-2017, 09:38
Also Schneider made a Center Filter 1 specifically for the Super Angulon 65mm F8. I am looking for one on the cheap............
Helpful when shooting 4x5" Handy photos. :)

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4319/36132426611_ffc13eea81_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/X3U8AB)Schneider 65mm f8 Center Filter (https://flic.kr/p/X3U8AB) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

EdSawyer
31-Jul-2017, 08:21
Don't expect great results from that viewfinder... just sayin'. ;-) For my Cambo Wide with 65mm, I find the Mamiya 7 43mm viewfinder a good match, plus it has a bubble level built-in. You can find them for $100-ish, depending on when/where you look.

-Ed

Daniel Unkefer
1-Aug-2017, 05:50
Thanks Ed! The Gaoersi Viewfinder arrived yesterday, Yes it's kind of painful to look through, especially at the edges. Also wonder how accurate the framing would be with this finder. Oh Well ;-) There are not too many 65mm 4x5 finders around here to try out!

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4297/36268554036_00700e7a2c_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/XfVPxb)Yashica SLR Viewfinder on Sinar Handy (https://flic.kr/p/XfVPxb) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I did look around all my stuff, and I found a nice Yashica SLR 21mm finder, this is comparable to the 21mm Leitz finder. Don't know if it's wide enough, but it sure is small and pleasant to look through. Here it is mounted on the Norma Handy.

Will search for the Mamiya 7 43mm finder. Haven't found any yet. Will keep looking.

Bob Salomon
1-Aug-2017, 09:02
Thanks Ed! The Gaoersi Viewfinder arrived yesterday, Yes it's kind of painful to look through, especially at the edges. Also wonder how accurate the framing would be with this finder. Oh Well ;-) There are not too many 65mm 4x5 finders around here to try out!

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4297/36268554036_00700e7a2c_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/XfVPxb)Yashica SLR Viewfinder on Sinar Handy (https://flic.kr/p/XfVPxb) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I did look around all my stuff, and I found a nice Yashica SLR 21mm finder, this is comparable to the 21mm Leitz finder. Don't know if it's wide enough, but it sure is small and pleasant to look through. Here it is mounted on the Norma Handy.

Will search for the Mamiya 7 43mm finder. Haven't found any yet. Will keep looking.

If you are really worried about the finder's accuracy then you need to take into consideration the distance from your hot shoe to the center of your lens, field size and parallax.
In short, the finders you are looking at will not be all that accurate.

Richard Wasserman
3-Aug-2017, 09:33
You might want to look at a Mamiya Press 50mm finder as they are parallax adjustable (and not too pricey). Back in the day I had a Sinar Handy with a 75mm Super Angulon and used that finder. As no finder is super precise, once you get used to it, it could work well for you and your 65mm lens.

Bob Salomon
3-Aug-2017, 10:45
"....As no finder is super precise, once you get used to it, it could work well for you and your 65mm lens.
Well that isn't quite correct. A Linhof Mutifocus Finder, the version made for the last 40 odd years, has automatic parallax and field size compensation and accepts masks for film formats from 6x6 to 4x5. Of course it is designed for the Master Technica so it would not be as accurate on other cameras whose shoe to lens distance is different or whose shoe is not centered on the lens. It works for focal lengths from 75 to 360mm.

Daniel Unkefer
3-Aug-2017, 18:30
You might want to look at a Mamiya Press 50mm finder as they are parallax adjustable (and not too pricey). Back in the day I had a Sinar Handy with a 75mm Super Angulon and used that finder. As no finder is super precise, once you get used to it, it could work well for you and your 65mm lens.

Thanks Richard! I will investigate that possibility. I distinctly remember Sinar used to use Mamiya Universal finders on their Handy cameras. Need to dig out old literature......

Daniel Unkefer
3-Aug-2017, 18:36
I find the Mamiya 7 43mm viewfinder a good match, plus it has a bubble level built-in. You can find them for $100-ish, depending on when/where you look. -Ed


Thanks for that Ed! No finders on the radar as of yet, but sure does look awesome. :)

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4371/36191532002_3941236f6c_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/X984z5)Mamiya 7 43mm finder (https://flic.kr/p/X984z5) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4374/36315665026_692206990e_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Xk6gZC)Mamiya 7 43mm Optical Viewfinder 2 (https://flic.kr/p/Xk6gZC) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

EdSawyer
4-Aug-2017, 09:10
I've had an used a lot of finders, the ones for the Mamiya 7 are as nice as they get, really, especially for really wide angles. It has easily adjustable diopter, plus the built-in bubble level helps too. The framelines show a region for close-up use as well. I actually have 2 of these, one for my mamiya 7 and the other for the Cambo Wide.

biggis
4-Aug-2017, 09:47
This is interesting. I have been looking for something new to play with maybe this can be my new walkaround camera.

Daniel Unkefer
28-Oct-2017, 09:19
Hi Ed,

I've been looking for the Mamiya 7 43mm Viewfinder, and today I finally got one.
Not cheap, though at $250. I just noticed it is missing the rubber eyecup.
I can deal with that, I am sure. This is NOT an easy to find item.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4449/24140021548_569dbac0e2_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/CMaVo5)Mamiya 43mm Viewfinder #1 (https://flic.kr/p/CMaVo5) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4496/26215269019_ba3d2b6899_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/FWy79T)Mamiya 43mm Viewfinder #2 (https://flic.kr/p/FWy79T) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I may need to mount this on a spacing block, as I am seeing in the "modern" Sinar Handy. Ground glass to viewfinder comparison will tell me what to do.

Daniel Unkefer
29-Oct-2017, 07:11
OK So my shoe (luckily) is centered L-R in regards to the lens (a good thing). So if I have this right, the viewfinder center to lens center, (the viewfinder height) is the other most critical design element. Field size of course depends what type of holder I happen to be using. Mainly I will use this camera with 4x5 sheet film, although I might try some 70mm just for an experiment and to test backs :) I am guessing I will need to raise the finder up a bit, (a machined aluminum block would do it), although the Cambo Wide does not seem to have this. And I think it is 65mm on 4x5 as well.

Not many finders are as wide as the 43mm Mamiya. I had a Voigtlander 15mm Voigtlander finder but it was not a good experience for me; too much barrel distortion. Too bad for me the Linhof finders only go to 75mm; I would consider modifying one.

This is going to be fun to have for occasional use. It also fills in this part of my Norma system.

Daniel Unkefer
29-Oct-2017, 07:33
The Linhof Technar is not all that different from what I am building. But it appears to be panoramic format.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4496/26236956609_6f9347d21e_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/FYtg7R)Linhof Technar (https://flic.kr/p/FYtg7R) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickrhttps://farm5.staticflickr.com/4297/36268554036_00700e7a2c_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/XfVPxb)Yashica SLR Viewfinder on Sinar Handy (https://flic.kr/p/XfVPxb) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Jac@stafford.net
29-Oct-2017, 07:38
I might try some 70mm just for an experiment and to test backs I am guessing I will need to raise the finder up a bit, (a machined aluminum block would do it), although the Cambo Wide does not seem to have this.

Some external viewfinders tilt down-forward to accommodate closer focusing. Regarding the machined block, there are adequate plastic flash shoe extenders. To use smaller films, such as 2.25"x* a little masking tape over the finder does a good job.

171332

Keep it simple & cost effective for early prototypes.

Here is a 4x5 with 47mm S/A, universal back and simple viewfinder riser. (http://www.digoliardi.net/veriwide-4x5/veriwide-4x5.jpg)

Daniel Unkefer
29-Oct-2017, 10:34
That is all excellent advice. Thanks.

And by the way, beautiful WA camera you have there!

Jac@stafford.net
29-Oct-2017, 10:50
That is all excellent advice. Thanks.

And by the way, beautiful WA camera you have there!

You are welcome. BTW I am trying to modify a Sinar Alpina to a 47mm XL. I got a spare, shortened rail and am trying to make a real short bellows substitute. I'll be watching your progress as I struggle.

Bernice Loui
29-Oct-2017, 10:58
Many years ago built a very similar camera for 6x9 roll film back using an Arca Swiss back and carved on milling machine frame from a block of aluminum and Schneider 47mm super angulon and Schneider focus mount for the 47mm SA. Worked really well.

View finder used was a 50mm mamiya press viewfinder, like this one:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6f/ce/fd/6fcefd18c0bebd13b9eb6e15e0c91091.jpg

If image accuracy is needed, ground glass viewing is mostly a must. Most of wide angle viewfinders have distortion and other problems. Alternative to this could be to use a film-video directors view finder like this:
http://cavision.biz/images/products/detail/VFM11X.jpg


It is shoe mount and has tilt-distance compensation. Works good enough to get the job done.

Sinar handy idea has been around for a long time. There have been many versions of this idea in recent years from Hasselblad flex body, Cambo wide, Horseman wide, Alpa and many others. Really a speciality camera, but can be fun and interesting to use. Suggest using a 4x5 graphmatic to get six sheets of 4x5 film in a small package if a 4x5 film version is used. This is much easier and more convent than lugging around a stack of 4x5 film holders. For roll film, there are many choices that work well.


Bernice

Daniel Unkefer
29-Oct-2017, 12:00
Suggest using a 4x5 graphmatic to get six sheets of 4x5 film in a small package if a 4x5 film version is used. This is much easier and more convent than lugging around a stack of 4x5 film holders.

Thank you for your thoughts and contributions, Bernice! I think I will use Graphmatics with this camera, Yes that is the way to do it.

I've considered the 50mm Mamiya, I remember Sinar using that one in their catalog, but it might have been with the 75mm 4x5 Handy.

I'm rather excited to give the 43mm Mamiya 7 viewfinder a go. Just wish the finder wasn't made of plastic :(

EdSawyer
31-Oct-2017, 07:06
Dan, nice that you got one of the Mamiya 7 43mm viewfinders. That is a steep price, no doubt. The 2 I have I got on ebay I think, one for only $80 or so, the other was maybe $120? One needed a new bubble level, which was a $20 part from MAC (at the time). The eyecup can probably be found, I am sure they are still around - MAC doesn't handle mamiya spare parts anymore unfortunately, so they are tougher to source.

the viewfinder does have a subset of framelines for close-focus, they are shifted slightly lower than the main framelines.

Hope it works out well for you, I use it on my 65mm cambo wide and the viewfinder matches what that sees pretty well. The bubble level is really handy too.

-Ed

Daniel Unkefer
1-Nov-2017, 16:03
Hope it works out well for you, I use it on my 65mm cambo wide and the viewfinder matches what that sees pretty well.-Ed

Hey Ed,

The finder is here and it is great!. It does have rubber on the rear, just not much. But enough to keep it from scratching my new eyeglasses. Now looking forward to testing this baby. I will do a viewfinder to groundglass comparison shortly. I'm sure this will work. Yay!

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4481/38099520241_922f8bfe85_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/213J112)Sinar Norma Handy Completed! (https://flic.kr/p/213J112) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Super wide angle super lightweight hand holdable 4x5" Something new to me
Left hand holds the wood grip, right hand works the focus, f/stop and shutter release.
To get a vertical, simply turn the camera 90 degrees.
If I remember my Sinar stuff this is like a 17mm or 18mm rectilinear lens on 35mm. Or thereabouts.

EdSawyer
2-Nov-2017, 06:25
The aspect ratios are different between 4x5 and 35mm, but I find a 65 "feels" like about an 18-21mm does on 35mm. Generally on 4x5, things seem wider than they "should" be according to the specs, so a 90mm feels a lot wider than what it would seem like it should (approx 28mm on 35mm format). 65mm is even more like that. Although the 65mm has a lot of DOF, I find that using the one on the Cambo Wide I have, focus is still critical, and you need to go to at least f/22 or even f/32 if you really want everything to be in focus.

Dan Fromm
2-Nov-2017, 06:40
Ed you are or the fellow behind this https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/3d-printed-6x18-camera.147586/ is a dangerous heretic. Since my 35/4.5 Apo Grandagon has to be focused OR ELSE I think you're ok and he isn't.

Daniel Unkefer
3-Nov-2017, 14:42
Although the 65mm has a lot of DOF, I find that using the one on the Cambo Wide I have, focus is still critical, and you need to go to at least f/22 or even f/32 if you really want everything to be in focus.

I know exactly what you mean. For 4x5 (when I was doing it every day) my go-to stop was F/22. Sometimes F32 as you say. I once hand calculated my own hyperfocal charts for large format, using critically small circles of confusion. I will have to dig out the 65mm chart. The 65mm Sinar Norma cone board, with Schneider 65mm F8 Super Angulon helical, is marked for focus in feet, but no DOF markings. So I will consult my hyperfocal chart for best results.

Essentially then it becomes a light weight smallish point-n-shoot 4x5". Something new to me. And it fits right into my Norma collection in my studio. YAY! :)

Gonna need to use FAST film in this baby. Maybe pushed hp5+ in Acufine??

One more thing; I am contemplating changing it out to a Linhof Technica Hand Grip. Stay tuned.

Daniel Unkefer
19-Nov-2017, 15:53
It turns out that Sinar used the grip from the Graflex XL on their "Handy" cameras. That is great news to me, 'cause I have this "complete" one coming my way. Modifying it from Graflex XL to Sinar Norma Handy should be quite easy. Then I have an authentic complete "Norma" era Handy that is vintage correct in every way.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4542/26753888179_d5febe941b_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/GL9ES8)Graflex XL Left Hand Grip (https://flic.kr/p/GL9ES8) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I will need to have a Norma-era circular chrome sticker made for this grip. As a final touch to Norma nostalgia.

EdSawyer
20-Nov-2017, 11:48
I use the Linhof side-mount (left hand side) grips on a lot of cameras. They are superbly ergonomic. The only downside is on some cameras, hanging the weight off the side can be a bit of a strain. I have them on a trio of speed graphics and crown graphics so far. I want to put one on an RB super-D but not sure if it would work well, those can be rather heavier than the speed/crowns. I have one on the Cambo TWR also, but that really needs grips/support on both sides.

Tmax 400 in XTOL (or portra 400 c-41) should be fast enough to shoot in varied light @ F/16 - 22 and still be hand-holdable. You likely won't need a center filter so that won't rob any light.

-Ed

Bob Salomon
20-Nov-2017, 12:05
I use the Linhof side-mount (left hand side) grips on a lot of cameras. They are superbly ergonomic. The only downside is on some cameras, hanging the weight off the side can be a bit of a strain. I have them on a trio of speed graphics and crown graphics so far. I want to put one on an RB super-D but not sure if it would work well, those can be rather heavier than the speed/crowns. I have one on the Cambo TWR also, but that really needs grips/support on both sides.

Tmax 400 in XTOL (or portra 400 c-41) should be fast enough to shoot in varied light @ F/16 - 22 and still be hand-holdable. You likely won't need a center filter so that won't rob any light.

-Ed

Weight should not be an issue. Linhof made them to hold up to the 5x7 Technika as well as the 45 Aero Technika EL. So a Super D would not challenge it.

Jac@stafford.net
20-Nov-2017, 12:45
I use the Linhof side-mount (left hand side) grips on a lot of cameras. They are superbly ergonomic. The only downside is on some cameras, hanging the weight off the side can be a bit of a strain.

I use Linhof grips: left side, right side, and bottom mount (http://www.digoliardi.net/unusual-linhof-grip-1.jpg). (My typical use of the bottom mount here (http://www.digoliardi.net/unusual-linhof-grip-2.jpg).)

Right hand Linhof grips are of two types of mount. One mounts on the rangefinder top (or the same mount modified to fit w/o rangefinder). The other right grip uses a robust single-point mount such as that on the Aero model, also the late Technikar. The Aero model uses the same single point type of mount for their left grip.

Left hand grips with the correct mount has the two fasteners separated well to assure a sturdy mount. Most Linhof left grips on the Bay are missing the mount!

Bob Salomon
20-Nov-2017, 13:34
I use Linhof grips: left side, right side, and bottom mount (http://www.digoliardi.net/unusual-linhof-grip-1.jpg). (My typical use of the bottom mount here (http://www.digoliardi.net/unusual-linhof-grip-2.jpg).)

Right hand Linhof grips are of two types of mount. One mounts on the rangefinder top (or the same mount modified to fit w/o rangefinder). The other right grip uses a robust single-point mount such as that on the Aero model, also the late Technikar. The Aero model uses the same single point type of mount for their left grip.

Left hand grips with the correct mount has the two fasteners separated well to assure a sturdy mount. Most Linhof left grips on the Bay are missing the mount!
There were also two different mount designs for the left grip. One with a short plate and the current type with a long plate. If you donít have the correct plate for your grip then the grip will not mount properly and securely. The plates and their mounting screws are included with a new grip. They are only sold as replacement parts via the service center if you need replacements. The older short plates are no longer available.

EdSawyer
21-Nov-2017, 06:53
hi Bob -
you are right, I have no doubt the Grip would do the job. It's more about if I have the wrist-strength to be able to hold it cantilevered out like that.

thanks
-Ed



Weight should not be an issue. Linhof made them to hold up to the 5x7 Technika as well as the 45 Aero Technika EL. So a Super D would not challenge it.

EdSawyer
21-Nov-2017, 06:54
Also, the left-hand grips (with or more commonly without mounting plate) are a lot easier to find on Ebay and elsewhere than the right-hand ones. I have at least 4 of the left-handers, but no right hand ones despite searching for those for a while.

Daniel Unkefer
22-Nov-2017, 05:57
Hi Ed/All,

Thanks for your advise on the Linhof grips. I have been looking -hard- at them, then I discovered that the Sinar Norma designers utilized the Graflex XL grip. The Sinar Norma grips are uber rare (and -expensive-). I am confident that with my limited metal working skills (garage workshop) I can accomplish something that is historically correct (or 90% so) and utilitarian. I've been a Norma collector for 35+ years and I must admit I'm a bit of a Norma purist. But sometimes you have to build what is not available. I'm sure you come across this too.

If my "Sinar Norma" pistol grip proves to be cumbersome to use, then I will try a Linhof. Actually the base I tapped out and threaded would be great for a quick tripod release. But that is changing the design from the original. Anyway Thanks everybody!

Further comments are Welcome! :)

Daniel Unkefer
30-Nov-2017, 14:44
The Graflex Grip arrived today. I searched for a while for a complete unit, a lot of them are missing things. Anyway the brass plate on the bottom of the Norma frame is not going to come apart, so I think I will make a block, attaching the top part with the brass plate, and I'd like to use the removable 3/8" threaded bolt in the top of the grip for the bottom part. I'm sure I can come up with something. At this point the grip is attached to the Norma with duct tape. But now, it really looks like a real Sinar Handy!

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4571/24878187568_2179233ddc_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/DUpdqq)Sinar Norma Handy Graflex Grip (https://flic.kr/p/DUpdqq) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Jerry Bodine
30-Nov-2017, 15:00
Dan - something I had not thought about earlier: Normally it takes two hands to insert a film holder, so how can you do that when one hand needs to hold onto the camera?

Would a pic of the rear of the camera help any? From the pic shown above, it appears the film holder would be inserted on the right-hand side of the camera.

Edit: Never mind the pic of the rear; there were enough shown earlier.

Jac@stafford.net
30-Nov-2017, 15:47
I don't think replicating a Handy is as important as making something better.

Daniel Unkefer
30-Nov-2017, 20:35
Normally it takes two hands to insert a film holder, so how can you do that when one hand needs to hold onto the camera?


Hi Jerry,

??? I got concerned by your statement, so I just tried a Graphmatic holder, and some Linhofs. But no probs, the holders go in with one hand. The Grafmatics of course can be locked onto the camera with the Graphmatic clips.

Daniel Unkefer
30-Nov-2017, 20:39
I don't think replicating a Handy is as important as making something better.

If my "Sinar Norma" pistol grip proves to be cumbersome to use, then I will try a Linhof. Actually the base I tapped out and threaded would be great for a quick tripod release. But that is changing the design from the original. Anyway Thanks everybody!

At this point everything Linhof I see on Ebay (that has a cable) is expensive IMO. I will give this a try and see how it works. And the price is more reasonable.

EdSawyer
1-Dec-2017, 06:58
The linhof grips can be expensive. For one with a cable and the correct matching mounting plate, anywhere in the $150-225 range seems common. I think a couple of the ones I have were around that price.

If you don't mind doing permanent mounting, you can live without the removable base-plate. That sometimes results in a cheaper linhof grip, if it's missing the latching baseplate. For the one I have like that, I just drilled a couple holes through the metal piece of the grip, and directly screwed it to a piece of threaded aluminum. It means the grip doesn't easily detach like it's designed to, but for a permanent solution, it's fine. Lighter than using the factory bracket, even.

A linhof grip w/o the baseplate can be had for $100 or less on ebay, usually. I have at least 5 of them, mounted to: Speed, Speed, Crown, Cambo TWR, and one that came with a Chicago Aerial Inc (CAI) military camera I bought on a whim that shoots polaroid pack film (which I should probably unload since I haven't ever used it). I might have a spare Linhof Grip, I forget, will check. They are the sort of thing I found worth stocking when I found them at a good price, since eventually I would find a use for them.

Daniel Unkefer
1-Dec-2017, 07:25
Thanks for your response, Ed!

Here is the other way to finish this, and frankly, I think I prefer this option. The Graflex XL grip is not as ergonomic as the Linhofs, but I think it will work ok. One bonus is that this one is complete (usually they are not), and includes the threaded flash shoe, which seems like a good bonus to me. I would have to drill a hole for the orientation pin on the XL mounting plate, then drill and tap two small mounting holes for machine screws in the Norma frame. But that is doable. Finaaly I can bolt a Manfrotto Hex plate to the bottom of the frame, to fit all of my tripod heads.

So it becomes like a poor man's Linhof Technar. But with Norma parts.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4547/26988860789_1a61f0f5e5_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/H7UY32)Graflex XL grip on Norma Frame (https://flic.kr/p/H7UY32) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr


https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4496/26236956609_6f9347d21e_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/FYtg7R)Linhof Technar (https://flic.kr/p/FYtg7R) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Linhof Technar.

Jac@stafford.net
1-Dec-2017, 11:18
At this point everything Linhof I see on Ebay (that has a cable) is expensive IMO. I will give this a try and see how it works. And the price is more reasonable.

Compatible grip cables are usually reasonably priced. I found a couple that were not identified as Linhof, but fit properly. There are at least three in this lot (http://www.digoliardi.net/cable-releases-1.jpg)I found.

Daniel Unkefer
2-Dec-2017, 07:02
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4535/38784624501_41dff54a82_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/226gkCr)Completed XL Grip Sinar Handy (https://flic.kr/p/226gkCr) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Had some time yesterday so I figured out a way to attach the Graflex XL Grip to the Norma format frame. I used two tiny brass hobby screws and nuts. It seems to be a very solid arrangement. The camera seems heavier with a side grip. I am still looking at Linhof grips but I want to give this a try.

Bob Salomon
2-Dec-2017, 07:11
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4535/38784624501_41dff54a82_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/226gkCr)Completed XL Grip Sinar Handy (https://flic.kr/p/226gkCr) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Had some time yesterday so I figured out a way to attach the Graflex XL Grip to the Norma format frame. I used two tiny brass hobby screws and nuts. It seems to be a very solid arrangement. The camera seems heavier with a side grip. I am still looking at Linhof grips but I want to give this a try.
Of course it would feel heavier, you have all the weight being supported on a small grip with most of the camera positioned behind the grip.

Daniel Unkefer
2-Dec-2017, 08:43
I did order this quick release plate set for the base of the Norma Handy. This plate setup will take the XL Pistol Grip, or a Manfrotto Hex plate. Worth having for $9.00

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4563/27010002309_04cb05f9da_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/H9MjEZ)Quick Release plate Sinar Handy (https://flic.kr/p/H9MjEZ) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr