Keeping scrotes & lowlifes at bay.

[jj_4045]

Had a few lowlife types hanging around the other day while I was using the 4x5. They somehow didn't want to go away. I drove off & stopped elsewhere & within a half hour they were there also.
This time they approached while I was in the process of unloading the camera & tripod. One reached for the camera on the tailgate of the truck while the other was on my other side. I had a container of carb cleaner in the back of the truck & grabbed it & hit the guy with his hand on the tripod in the face. He started screaming & grabbed at his eyes & face and the other guy started swearing & got threatening & I pointed it at him & he backed off.

I know the stuff temporarily blinds you & hurts like fire from having nailed myself while working on the truck a few times & getting it in my eyes. But after about 30 minutes sight came back & there have been no ill effects.

Now I carry a can or two in the truck regularly and add to it the hornet nest spray. The type that you use from 20-30 feet away. I figure these two will incapacitate anyone enough for me to get in and drive away before things can get bad. Seems it would be a lot easier to explain away as 'self defense' than pulling and possibly using a gun on someone.

Any idea of which would be more effective in keeping the scum in check? You don't need a government permit or class to have a can of bug zapper or carb or brake cleaner around.

[Scott Fleming]

Good work!

If they had had a gun however it could have been all over for you. I would guess the hornet spray would work as well. The distance those cans shoot is impressive. I also doubt the substance would do lasting damage as the feds no longer allow insecticides with any real danger on the market. The companies who make the stuff would surely insure themselves against lawsuits by those who accidently spray themselves by making the stuff non injurious to the eyes.

As to whether it would have the knock down power that the carb spray had ... put 1/10th of a drop on your cheek under your eye and note the effects. It sure as hell kicks the stuffing out of hornets.

This sort of activity could get your posterior sued into the poor house by the way.

[Brian Vuillemenot]

I'm just curious, JJ, where were you out photographing when this happened, and how did the low-lives latch onto you?

[jj_4045]

A city type semi-rural park. One way drive through the area so you don't have much choice as to where to drive.

[Ellen Stoune Duralia]

"This sort of activity could get your posterior sued into the poor house by the way."

Yeah... isn't that great that criminals can get away with that crap!

JJ, I'm glad to hear you're ok!!

[brook]

One should never forget the blinding power of a well directed strobe. Safe, effective and easy to explain why you were carrying it.

[Jerry Cunningham]

I live in Montana in real bear country. "Bear Spray" is easily available here. It is a pepper spray and has stopped charging grizzlies. I have accidently sprayed myself and it is bad stuff. No one will be looking for a fight after being hit with this. Of course, it is not supposed to be used on people. However, survival knows no law.

[SHY]

There are some very serious issues to consider here. I have a CCW, and carry always. Not to protect my gear but my life. Fortunately I have never been a situation where someone wanted to rip my equipment off. However, if they did want to, I would be in the wrong to pull my gun to stop them.

Likewise the legal and physical ramifications from spraying someone in the eyes with a compound may be worse than the theft of the equipment. If the thief has a gun and pulls it on you in retaliation for the spray, you are in trouble. He most certainly can sue you, causing you a lot of grief and perhaps jail time.

The best solution is to insure your gear, and then let the perp take it. You remain safe, and continue to stand on the right side of the law.

Only if your LIFE is threatened (and in immediate danger) will you be able to justify any form of action against a attacker, be it use of deadly force, or pepper spray.

Please be safe out there, it is far easier to replace a camera, than a life.

S.

[Stan. Laurenson-Batten]

What a sorry state of affairs that because of the litigation culture a person/s going about their lawful activities are unable to feel free in our so called democracy. In answer to the above solutions.

As far as I am concerned my photographic equipment IS my life, so any act or threat that I consider is against my person or property is a threat to my life and so a criminal act, consequently I would use any means available, to whatever degree, to effect the purpose of my protection. I have good clean record of work and social responsibility, it is up to the law to back me up!

[Richard Boulware]

JJ:

Do yourslef a favor and check out this web site. www.udap.com. I use this stuff and carry the large can which is 9.2 oz. (260 g). This pepper spray is used for Grizzly Bears, and is the only product approved by the Canadian government. The spray is dyed orange and comes out with a huge roar, in a cone shaped spray. It has a range of 30' and at that range the spray covers about an 8' diameter area.

I'm on my second can, and have two buddies in law enforcement who now carry this instead of standard police issue stuff. They swear by it and so do I. I've had to use it on pairs of dogs...big ones in the 100 lb. range that attacked me. It dropped them like a hot rock...and is not lethal...just hurts like hell. In Colorado, it is not only legal but it's use is encouraged for people in your type of situation.

In the 'boondocks' I carry my 9mm, in addition to pepper power. With a good professional grade camera insurance policy, and these two items, you're in pretty good shape.

Be safe...stay well. Richard Boulware - Denver.

[Paul_5410]

Hello JJ,

Here in Florida it is very easy to obtain a concealed weapons permit. I have several pro photographers associates who have obtain theirs based on the fact that they are usually moving about with a few thousand dollars worth of equipment (as we know that isn't very hard to do) and the state recognizes the risk they faced.

I am not sure if this is good or bad???, I sort of think a "security in numbers" might be a better methodology. If possible get a few folks to tag along with you? Maybe a photo club outing or similar. It is sad but civility seems to be fading?

Three shining bare spikes on the end of a tripod are worth remembering too. But in closing as attached to our equipment as we tend to be. It can all be replaced and a life can not.

Take Care of yourself, I'm happy to hear you are okay and I'm going to go look at the bear spray that sounds pretty good! But my 9mm has 15 answers to the problem. . . then I'll need a good lawyer!

Paul

[Neal Shields]

In Texas, a baseball bat is a baseball bat unless you say that you are keeping it protect yourself and then it is an illegal weapon and a felony!

So if someone asks you why you carry that spray, it is to unstick cameras.

This whole post is now public record forever and if you ever get sued, I assure you that the lawyers will find it.

Somewhere, I can't find the quote again, Thoreau said: "everything you get, you trade for something called life". So it isn't just a camera, it is a whole bunch of hours of my life.

However, while in many jurisdictions in the US it is legal to defend your property; from a practical economics standpoint it is probably stupid.

The laws have a lot of “gotchas” in them so before you defend yourself or your cameras you better have at least a working knowledge. Was, for example, he taking the tripod or just picking it up to look at?

While there is a long record on the effectiveness of chemical self-defense sprays there is also a long record on their failures. Watch the Rodney King video sometime and see if you want to trust your life to them. You spray the wrong person to keep them from taking your camera and they may stick a knife in you.

I think that as large format photographers we get in more situations where we are away from crowds and venerable because it takes so long to set up a shot that trouble has time to get organized. Further, we usually can’t just hop back in the car and drive away.

In my own case, I case a scene pretty carefully for human predators (that would be in jail in a rational society) before I ever get out of the car. ( I like to photograph old abandoned buildings and factories so this is a problem that I face almost every time that I load up my cameras.)

If there is any doubt, I will set up the camera and lenses at a remote location so I can get the picture quickly and scoot. Then I will repack everything at the original location.

I think that a good rule would be not to go anywhere with pepper spray that you wouldn’t go without it.

P.S. There is a witnessed (neighbor accross the street) documented case where a woman shot a man that was attacking here with a 12 inch butcher knife 12 times with a 9mm and he kept comming. The 13th shot went into his brain and stopped him.

[Paul_5410]

Talon

Ball

Hollow points

Hydrashock Impact

If you do not recognise these terms do not carry a handgun until you take a proper weapons training class. The type of bullet is as important as the size.

I am not advocating the use of a weapon but respectfully showing that knowledge is nescessary as the post script from Neal's note illustrates. A ball passes through a body. . . I'll allow you to research the other type of rounds. As the news sadly tells us everyday even a child can pull a trigger. Training is required to master anything.

My only intent for this post is to show that anyone who desires to purchase a personal sidearm needs to also obtain proper training.

[Jay DeFehr]

JJ,

are you sure you didn't overreact? I don't read anything in your description that constitutes an attack on the part of the injured party, which was not you, by the way. According to your description, they could have simply been curious about your equipment, and perhaps a little rude in reaching for your camera without asking permission to do so. Does that warrant chemical warfare? I think you're lucky indeed that the person you attacked, or his companion, didn't retaliate, which would have been very defensible, both legally and morally. If someone sprayed me in my eyes with some unknown chemical, I would consider it a threat to my life, and respond accordingly. Maybe you should look into a course on conflict resolution before you venture into the public domain armed with chemical weapons.

Jay

[james mickelson]

Having grown up on the mean streets, anyone within arms reach of you constitutes warranted use of some kind. If they are that close and you've asked them to leave, you have the right to protection under the law. But I would venture to suggest that if you can't take care of yourself with the weapons you were born with, you had better take the class and get yourself some good ol pepper spray. You will learn when and wether it is appropriate to use the stuff. But arms length is legally admissible in a court of law. A lot of the laws governing self defense have been changed to protect the unarmed. Tell them to back off and then nail em. That's your right. Worry about the consequences once the police arrive. That's your property and it's your life. Don't allow someone to get that close. What was going on from your description was called intimidation. It's an old game. You gotta have balls to beat them at their own game. The least that would have happened is that you would have lost your equipment. Taking no action invites more aggresive posturing. By the time the law arrives to help you, you've lost equipment or your money and not to mention your vehicle. Tell them you're working and to go away. If you can then leave. But if they don't take the hint. use the spray. First one in the chest, then empty the can at them if they don't get the hint. If there are two of them, when the cops arrive, self defense is your best defense. You feared for your life and property, and you acted in accordance with your training. If more people did this, fewer transients would attempt this aggresive behavior.

[Jeff Moore]

Over react, Jay? If you re-read the post, they followed her to a SECOND location and grabbed the camera. That is reasonably considered a threat, and I know plenty of lawyers that would take that case in a minute.

Course in conflict resolution? That's funny.

You voted for Clinton twice, didn't you?

[Wayne Crider]

Cell phone and speed dial the instant you notice something. Talk loud.

[Jon Wilson]

As everyone knows, you must always be on the alert. A CCW in my opinion is a must with no less than a 9mm in tow. A perp can move in a split second and cross the 10-15' distance between their threat and your person...you must be able to react quickly and that does not mean to respond by introducing yourself to them. Don't carry unless you are willing to act and live with the consequences of your actions. As my best friend has always advised, based on his two tours w/ SEAL team one and 22000+ undercover drug convictions to his credit...."I would always prefer to be judged by 12 , than carried by 6." Good Light, but always keep safe.

[Jay DeFehr]

Jeffrey,

I read the post carefully, and see no evidence of anything more sinister than curiosity. There were no threats made beyond the discourtesy of reaching for someone's property (JJ never stated that they grabbed anything) without permission. If JJ is indeed a woman, she should be cautious, but not paranoid. Your legal background is clearly limited if you believe the situation as described, is legally defensible. As for my voting record, it seems you might be under the misconception that I am a lefty peacenick who would never advocate violoence under any circumstance. I have no problem with violence when it's warranted, or consensual. Do you want to fight?

Jay

[Jim Rice]

I voted for Clinton twice and still want a 1911 Colt .45, so stereotypes are often inaccurate. OTOH I can afford carb cleaner, and I'm pretty sure they aren't going to be taking down my tag number while blinded. The only thing I would have done differently than JJ would be popping them both at the onset of violence.

[Jay DeFehr]

Jim,

what violence? The only violence mentioned in JJ's post was when JJ sprayed some guy in his eyes for touching his/her tripod. I suppose he/she could have sprayed with one hand and punched with the other. Is that what you're suggesting? I think I might have led with " don't handle my equipment", or something along those lines, with a tone befitting the circumstances, before I assaulted the guy. Fear and panic can have unintended, and often disasterous consequences. I'm also skeptical of JJ's medical expertise and characterization of the long term effects of taking a direct blast of carb cleaner to the eyes. If the scumbags were the litigious type, any lawyer worth a damn could easily take JJ for whatever JJ is worth. By the way, I'm a Taurus man, myself.

Jay

[Jeff Moore]

Don't take everything so serious, Jay. Maybe you're the one who should be looking into that conflict resolution course.

[Jay DeFehr]

Jeffrey,

if I ever get the urge to attack curious onlookers, I'll consider it.

Jay

[John Kasaian]

If robbery is a concern, take a friend or two with you when you go shooting in that area. Thugs are usually cowards, so if you have a friend who, say picks his teeth with a machete, so much the better. Unless your pals are into photography, this can be a painfully boring pass time for them, watching you fiddle with your knobs and such, so give so take along a few magazines (the Guns and Ammo or Tai quan do variety) to keep them occupied.

Good luck!

[robert_4927]

I'll talk to Jim at Midwest and see if he'll start carrying Tasers. ....lol....just joking

[Brian C. Miller]

JJ, I think you did the right thing.

As for pepper spray, I recommend Fox Labs pepper spray (http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/pepper.htm), and I have bought from the distributor. Its good stuff. I have a Firemaster, one of the 4oz units, and a Life Pager.

I've spent as much on firearms training as I have on photography. No, wait, I haven't! I've only spent a few thousand. (Dang this obsession with lens, film, and paper!) Basic instruction courses can be had for $200 or so and are worth it. Make sure you get instruction on use of deadly force.

Anyways, you did fine. Based on your description, they were looking to rob you. Fortunately they weren't motivated to kill you. The only thing you didn't do was tell them to back off when they approached you. Don't ever let them BS you about curiosity. They aren't curious.

In Washington state, you would go to jail for using lethal force to defend property. That's what happens. You would have to articulate a threat to your life. This past month a man was murdered during a carjacking in Tacoma. For some people life is very cheap, and your life is worth a quarter (about the cost of a .45 bullet).

The use of carb cleaner is a good one. Many people may be unaffected by pepper spray, but harsh automotive cleaning chemicals are another ball game. You had it on hand for your vehicle, not for assault. The only thing "better" would have been a bulb flash to blind their eyes, and then follow it up with the spray. After that would come lethal force.

As for a baseball bat, those are easy to deflect, same as for using a Mag-Lite flashlights. You'd have to use a Mag-Lite as a baton, and that requires some training. Make friends with some policemen, and they'll show you how.