PDA

View Full Version : High speed film for 4x5



jesse1996
5-Jun-2017, 09:58
Hey folks, quick question. Going on a trip soon and plan on doing a good bit of photography at night. Wanted to know if you had any good high speed films you'd recommend? I browsed a bit and didn't find anything faster than ISO 400. If there isn't any film is my best option just pushing the 400 speed to ISO 800 or 1600? And would it be reasonable for star photography out in the salt flats?

xkaes
5-Jun-2017, 10:51
The only high speed 4x5 film that I use is Kodak Royal-X Pan (ISO 1250). But don't bother looking for any. I just might be the last guy on the planet that has any -- and I'm not selling. Besides, it is so grainy that it would not be of much use is astrophotography. I'd say use a fine grained ISO 400 film and push it -- which should not be a big obstacle with long exposures of the night sky -- with or without a Star Tracker.

Leigh
5-Jun-2017, 11:17
I used Royal-X Pan 50 years ago, pushed in Acufine to some insane speed.

But I was shooting sports for a newspaper, so "de-larging" from 4x5 down to 1 or 2 column width.

- Leigh

Arne Croell
5-Jun-2017, 11:41
With star photography, whether as star trails or with the camera on an equatorial mount, you have many minutes to hours of exposure time. It is more important to have a low reciprocity failure than a high speed in that case. As an example, Kodak's TMax 100 is "faster" than TMax 400 at longer exposures. Afaik, the soon to be gone (as sheet film) Fuji Acros 100 has the best reciprocity failure data, followed by TMax 100. You might also want to look into "hypersensitization", using either hydrogen or forming gas (a mix of nitrogen or argon with hydrogen) to temporarily increase the effective speed at long exposures. This was a common procedure in astrophotography before CCD and CMOS sensors took over.

The standard b/w astrophotography film to be "hypered" was actually Kodak Technical Pan, a low speed document film, which is long gone.

Jac@stafford.net
5-Jun-2017, 14:34
What Arne said. High speed film is not necessary for much star photography, especially if you are doing 'trails'.
Stars are actually bright. ISO 400 is good,
Boost processing contrast for shorter exposures and be happy.

My long gone sky camera: http://www.digoliardi.net/skc/skc1.jpg
8x10", metrogon lens.

Jim Noel
5-Jun-2017, 14:57
Because of it's almost non-existent reciprocity factor, Fuji Acros 100 is the fastest film available in low light. I have exposed it for 2 minutes with no adjustment for reciprocity, and I don't think that is it's limit. I develop it normally after these long exposures.

Pere Casals
5-Jun-2017, 15:20
Because of it's almost non-existent reciprocity factor, Fuji Acros 100 is the fastest film available in low light. I have exposed it for 2 minutes with no adjustment for reciprocity, and I don't think that is it's limit. I develop it normally after these long exposures.

Unfortunately, Acros LF has a Capital Punishment scheduled. To be discontinued in one year. Something infame.

jnanian
5-Jun-2017, 16:34
i think you can hyper your film with warm hydrogen peroxide
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/wow-steam-pushing-with-hydrogen-peroxide.99927/
i've read it other places as well

interneg
5-Jun-2017, 16:49
TMAX400 is probably the best compromise - from Howard Bond's reciprocity tests (http://phototechmag.com/black-and-white-reciprocity-departure-revisited-by-howard-bond/) it loses only a stop of speed at 2 minutes - thus it's still a stop faster than ACROS, & no LF lens is realistically going to be able to utilise the extra resolution of TMAX 100, ACROS/ Delta 100. Mucking about with hypering is fine if you're doing astronomy or something like that, but realistically, your biggest problem is going to be the Earth's rotation...


Better to take some risks, ignore the need for 'perfect' imagery & have fun. Check out some of Michael Kenna's night photography to see what you can do once you throw away the notion that it needs to be a literal representation, or grainless.

Leigh
5-Jun-2017, 16:55
Because of it's almost non-existent reciprocity factor, Fuji Acros 100 is the fastest film available in low light.
I have exposed it for 2 minutes with no adjustment for reciprocity, and I don't think that is it's limit.
Per the ACROS datasheet, it requires no exposure correction out to 120 seconds, and only 1/2 stop to 1000 seconds.

- Leigh

xkaes
5-Jun-2017, 17:14
If you REALLY want to push your film with pre-sensitization, try hydrazine dyhydrochloride. It's basically rocket fuel.

Mark Sampson
5-Jun-2017, 18:09
Gas-hypering sure seems like 'photography made difficult'. Probably best to use TMX, TMY, or Acros and see what happens. A good starting point anyway.
I recall not being able to get good (printable) star trail images in the '80s with Vericolor type L film and an f/8 lens. When I used Tri-X, sometimes I got good results. Things are easier now.

Pere Casals
6-Jun-2017, 01:40
I'm building my gas-hypering chamber...

It can be done with a plain piece of steel pipe and a quality high vaccum pump. If vacuum is not very good then one can make more cycles of vacuum + filling with forming gas.

http://www.astropix.com/html/i_astrop/film/hypering.html

There is plenty of information from astronomers !!! thanks to them !!!

Hypering is a funny adventure... :cool: with Acros there is no need about it, but LF Acros is to disappear :mad:.


I disagree that TMY is close to Acros for that...


We have to remember that shadows have much more LIRF than highlights, so the edge Acros has it is very important to conserve shadow detail, very soon it delivers some 3 stops advantage over TMY in the shadows.


TMY is very, very far from Acros performance... but this depends a bit on the exposure time, and scene shadow depth...

Leigh
6-Jun-2017, 08:59
We have to remember that shadows have much more LIRF than highlights, so the edge Acros has it is very important to conserve shadow detail, very soon it delivers some 3 stops advantage over TMY in the shadows...
In astrophotography there are no shadows. Black is BLACK.

- Leigh

xkaes
6-Jun-2017, 09:20
165795

165794

Pere Casals
6-Jun-2017, 11:35
In astrophotography there are no shadows. Black is BLACK.

- Leigh



Of course... but OP says "photography at night", so I understand it will be salt flats landscape with star trails, this may have shadows...

Rich14
6-Jun-2017, 15:03
Here's a gorgeous example of Acros at night in a 2 min exposure.

Be sure to click to enlarge the image to full size!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/shawnhoke/7979604889/in/album-72157632303105515/

There are many other examples of LF B&W night images on the site. As well as other excellent 4x5 street photography.

Here's another "long" Acros night image.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/shawnhoke/6859944885/in/album-72157628339672271/

Rich

Jim Andrada
6-Jun-2017, 17:29
The big Tokyo stores still show Acros as available with no limit on quantity in 4 x 5, 8 x 10, 120, and 35mm. I think it should be available for a while yet.

xkaes
6-Jun-2017, 18:58
165830

jesse1996
6-Jun-2017, 21:34
That is exactly what I'm going for with my photos o this trip xkaes! I'm planning on taking a coupe in Monument valley as well as out i the salt flats with the mountains occurring the lower 1/3 or 2/3 of the photo. what film did you use to capture the first image?

jesse1996
6-Jun-2017, 21:45
I suppose TMAX 400 would be a great choice with so many recommendations, I am intrigued with acros as well since I will just be doing star trails and not actual tracking (yet) I'd have to also buy a tracking tripod head that could hold a 4x5 camera. that would be really great for getting the milky way with some color film, id suspect velvia 50 would be good for that since the night sky doesnt have terribly much contrast other than the stars themselves which id want to "pop" anyways.
I do really want to know what film Xkaes used for his star trail shots. I've heard that color film can suffer from color shifts with long exposures that require filters to correct it or lots of work in post either in the dark room or digital editing.
Would anyone recommend Ektar 100 since it has a pretty full proof dynamic range? I'm not sure how it reacts with long 10-15min exposures so input on that and any other possible color films would be good as well. I'm looking to buy two boxes on this trip, one color and one B&W and would like relative utilitarianism from one of them or both.

Rich14
6-Jun-2017, 23:10
Jesse,

Just using the same material someone else used doesn't mean you are going to get the same results. Usually, not even close.

The kind of questions you are asking indicates you have no familiarity at all with the kind of photography you seem to want to do. One of the worst mistakes a photographer can make is to take a single piece of new gear on a trip, expecting everything to "go right" with the experience. You seem to be asking for advice all over the place. If you have no experience using LF, just getting some film, based on recommendations and going on a trip to the desert Southwest and expecting great results (or even any results) is likely to be a painful experience.

I suggest you start practicing at home doing star trails and landscape scenes. Use one B&W film and one color film and get to the point where you are getting dependable results before you try to take your act on the road.

It's hard enough to master all the many little tasks that are required in LF work without adding the stress of being on the road in a (potentially) hostile environment. It's not uncommon for beginners to make unintended mistake after mistake until all those little things become almost automatic.

(Believe me, the places you plan to photograph will test you greatly. I used to live in Arizona. It's astonishingly beautiful, but challenging).

Pere Casals
7-Jun-2017, 00:27
id suspect velvia 50 would be good

Would anyone recommend Ektar 100 since it has a pretty full proof dynamic range?


For night it's much better Velvia 100 than 50, because reciprocity failure and speed, for day I normally prefer 50 because yellows are depicted warmer than velvia 100 , and I like that.

Ektar is also useful at night.


See velvia datasheets and how magenta filters have to be used for long exposure, with velvia 50 you have to use filters very soon. Always read datasheets twice !!!

Regards

See chapter Velvia 50 "5) Long exposure compensation", it tells what filter to use. Then see with Velvia 100,

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/professional_films/pdf/velvia_50_datasheet.pdf

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/professional_films/pdf/velvia_100_datasheet.pdf



http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/products/e4046_ektar_100.pdf

xkaes
7-Jun-2017, 05:49
I've mostly done color night shots and mostly in winter in the Arizona desert such as the Kofa National Wildlife Refuge where you can't avoid the Milky Way. Aqua Prieta NWR, Superstition MTs, and Mazatzal Wilderness are also great, among others. It's easy to get away from the city lights in AZ. I just wait for the sun to set which is pretty early and fast in the winter desert. Most shots are not tracked, but I have sometimes used a home-made Star Tracker -- from the book, "Handbook for Star Trackers -- Making and Using Star Tracking Camera Platforms", Jim Ballard, 1988.

165837

The problem with tracking is that you have to stay with the camera and move the bolt every 10-30 seconds or so since it is not motorized. Gets boring after a while and I prefer the streaks, anyway. For these, I just set the shutter on T and leave it there until a wake up. The only possible problems are wind or the moon, so I need to know where that is or is going to be. The film I use is Agfacolor Optima 100 and 125 4x5. I never thought it was an unusual film, but Wikipedia doesn't list either in 4x5 in their extensive list of discontinued films. Actually, they don't list Optima 125 in ANY format -- and I KNOW it is discontinued, except for my freezer. That just proves, once again, that you can't believe everything you read on the Internet.

I've never used any fill-in flash during these exposures for the foreground, but many have -- with great results. Because the exposures are so long, you can move around with the flash, popping it off as you like, and even illuminating any foreground items from different positions, with different filters, etc. Lots of possibilities.

165838

If you want cliffs, etc. in the foreground, it's best to have a sensitive meter to get a reading, but you can't use it "as is" or it will come out too bright. So figure out how dark you want it. That is usually not a problem or you can just wing it/ignore it. Exposing the film is no problem. I set the focus to infinity and stop down a couple of stops. I process the film normally.

interneg
7-Jun-2017, 14:03
Would anyone recommend Ektar 100 since it has a pretty full proof dynamic range? I'm not sure how it reacts with long 10-15min exposures so input on that and any other possible color films would be good as well. I'm looking to buy two boxes on this trip, one color and one B&W and would like relative utilitarianism from one of them or both.

Portra 160 (or the Portras in general) are better bets than Ektar latitude wise - I've found that a little over exposure tends to knock the colours off on Ektar, shadows going off in a blue-ish purple-ish direction particularly. Portra is very very forgiving in comparison - you can more or less just open the shutter & leave it for the amount of time that feels right. Portra 160 is also higher resolving than Ektar. A lot also depends on whether you plan to take it through a fully optical RA4 process or high res scan & colour correct.

jesse1996
7-Jun-2017, 22:13
Noted folks, I ask the advice to avoid mistakes/wasting money that isn't always easy for me to come by. I have very limited LF experience (maybe 8 hours total) I suppose I do overthink a lot and get nervous with these sorts of things. Thanks for all the pointers.

LabRat
16-Jun-2017, 00:40
I'm building my gas-hypering chamber...

It can be done with a plain piece of steel pipe and a quality high vaccum pump. If vacuum is not very good then one can make more cycles of vacuum + filling with forming gas.

http://www.astropix.com/html/i_astrop/film/hypering.html

There is plenty of information from astronomers !!! thanks to them !!!

Hypering is a funny adventure... :cool: with Acros there is no need about it, but LF Acros is to disappear :mad:.


I disagree that TMY is close to Acros for that...


We have to remember that shadows have much more LIRF than highlights, so the edge Acros has it is very important to conserve shadow detail, very soon it delivers some 3 stops advantage over TMY in the shadows.


TMY is very, very far from Acros performance... but this depends a bit on the exposure time, and scene shadow depth...

Pere,

If you would like to read the best text I have found about the different methods to hyper film, try to find a copy of;

"A Manual of Advanced Celestial Photography" Cambridge Press 1988 By Brad D Wallis & Robert W Provin

ISBN 0 521 25553 8

This was a VERY expensive book (about $150) back then, but now can be found for about $5 or $10 now from online booksellers...

Excellent photographic theory and how-to... (I just found my copy while packing up for my move...) Just up your alley!!!

Happy reading!!!

Steve K

Pere Casals
16-Jun-2017, 05:32
Pere,

If you would like to read the best text I have found about the different methods to hyper film, try to find a copy of;

"A Manual of Advanced Celestial Photography" Cambridge Press 1988 By Brad D Wallis & Robert W Provin

ISBN 0 521 25553 8

This was a VERY expensive book (about $150) back then, but now can be found for about $5 or $10 now from online booksellers...

Excellent photographic theory and how-to... (I just found my copy while packing up for my move...) Just up your alley!!!

Happy reading!!!

Steve K



Thanks for your recommendation! I've just ordered it, 3,58€ , some 10€ with shipping

I may receive it Jul 6....

166176