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xtmevolution
28-May-2017, 23:35
is wash film with warm water will make washing faster? and cold water making washing longer time? right now i just left the water running, i have no idea if it is really clean.

Leigh
29-May-2017, 00:37
I try to wash film at the same temperature as the chemistry.
I have a temperature control mixing faucet with a thermometer providing the wash water.

You want to avoid thermal shock. That can damage the emulsion.

I once had a problem in a community darkroom where the cold water got shut off somehow and the film washed for an hour or so in hot water. When I retrieved it, most of the emulsion was gone. Obviously, that's an unusual situation, but illustrative of my point.

To answer your question... The temperature has no impact on wash efficiency.

- Leigh

koraks
29-May-2017, 02:12
Warm (not hot!) water will wash more effectively as washing is a diffusion process. I believe a transition a few degrees upwards from the fixer to the washing bath won't induce any emulsion damage. In fact, modern emulsions are quite difficult to get to reticulate. Obviously, washing above the melting point of gelatin is a very bad idea.

LabRat
29-May-2017, 06:45
Hot (warm) washes can cause excessive swelling/softening that while drying, the emulsion can shrink back down ever so slightly out of perfect register when dry that can have a slightly mushy edge sharpness (even before reticulation)... When processing/washing/drying, even temp, and keeping the wet time as low as possible will produce noticeably sharper results... (Does your hot summer processed film look just like your temperate weather processing???)

Film is easy to wash, because the film base does not absorb chem like paper does (that's why RC washes fairly quickly, while fiber based papers take much longer)... You don't really need a washing aid for film, because it is easy to wash well... A few changes of wash water, some time between them for diffusion, is good...

Steve K

Jac@stafford.net
29-May-2017, 06:57
What Steve K said is right on. I'll add that film washes much faster in hard rather than soft water. Just follow washing with a good rinse in distilled water.

Luis-F-S
29-May-2017, 08:35
It's pretty impressive when film reticulates from too warm a wash water. Hopefully you'll only do it once!

Duolab123
29-May-2017, 22:23
With liquid fixers (ammonium thiosulfate ) i.e. rapid fix, warmer than 20 C won't help. Try to stay at constant temperature from beginning to end. Hypo clearing agent helps speed washing, but is rarely used any longer with film and rc papers. 10 complete changes of water, with each change every 30 seconds is good enough. I'm old school so I still use HCA, then wash for at least 5 minutes in running water, frequently dumping out the water.
Final rinse in deionized water with a few drops of photo flo
Mike

AtlantaTerry
29-May-2017, 23:45
right now i just leave the water running, i have no idea if it is really clean.

May I submit what you are doing is slowly diluting the dirty/contaminated wash. That is a big waste of water and doesn't really get your film clean.

IMHO, what is more important is total changes of wash water. After fixing, rinse a couple times using complete changes of water which will eliminate a large amount of residual fixer. Follow that with a hypo eliminator per manufacturer's instructions. Finally, fill your wash tank, let it sit for a minute or so then and empty it completely. Do that several times - it is those complete changes of wash water that will get your film clean and at the same time save water.

Old habits don't die so I try to keep each of my fluids within one to two degrees F.

Doremus Scudder
30-May-2017, 01:43
Ideally, the wash water and the processing temperature would be the same. Some variation is acceptable, but it is reasonable to try to keep this as small as possible. That said, Ilford gives a margin of error as, "... water at the same temperature, +/- 5C (9F), as the processing solutions." This seems rather extreme for me and may not apply to non-hardened emulsions or products other than Ilford's; I'll stay within a degree or two.

As for washing, see the thread at APUG here: http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?threads/film-washing-test.69416/

Best,

Doremus

Steve Goldstein
30-May-2017, 03:17
I found quite by accident that raising the wash temperature a bit relative to development (75F vs 68F, for example) speeds up the removal of the purple coloration from TMY2 with no apparent harm to the emulsion, at least none visible on close inspection in enlargements up to 10x.

Leigh
30-May-2017, 03:29
The "purple coloration" is the anti-halation dye from the back of the film.
It should have been removed by the liquids much earlier in the process.

- Leigh

jnanian
30-May-2017, 03:36
cold, warm, i don't think it matters much,just not more than 68F

portrait studio i worked at years ago
rubber tanks filled with 5x7 hangers in the slop-sink
and the only cold water running ( in the winter months it was pretty cold )
i asked if it made a difference ( she had been doing it this way for 50 years )
and she said "only cold water" ...
sometimes she had me printing her personal work from the 30s, processed the same way
and the negatives looked like they were brand-new ..

j.e.simmons
30-May-2017, 04:48
When I lived in Florida, my water pipes ran through my attic. It was impossible to get water under 80F from the tap, and impractical to chill enough water for washing. I tried chilling the developer only, and had emulsion problems. In my situation, I found that processing film at room temperature, and making appropriate adjustments for time, yielded best results.

As for washing methods, Kodak did experiments that showed a good deal of fixer removal occurs through diffusion. Thus a recommendation of 5-minutes soaking in still water before changing. I basically follow Atlantaterry's method with the exception of 5-minutes soaking instead of one. There's also an interesting thread on this site showing a 20-minute presoak may be best.

Steve Goldstein
30-May-2017, 05:39
The "purple coloration" is the anti-halation dye from the back of the film.
It should have been removed by the liquids much earlier in the process.

- Leigh

Yes, I know it should have been removed, but it isn't always so. 120 film, in particular, comes out of the fixer with a distinct purplish coloration, but I've also noticed this to a lesser extent with 4x5 TMY2.

Jac@stafford.net
30-May-2017, 07:15
Yes, I know it should have been removed, but it isn't always so. 120 film, in particular, comes out of the fixer with a distinct purplish coloration [...]

After fixing then rinsing and while the film is still on the reel, soak the negs again in developer. Dektol diluted 1:3 will do. Then rewash.

Arne Croell
30-May-2017, 10:11
When I lived in Florida, my water pipes ran through my attic. It was impossible to get water under 80F from the tap, and impractical to chill enough water for washing. I tried chilling the developer only, and had emulsion problems. In my situation, I found that processing film at room temperature, and making appropriate adjustments for time, yielded best results.

As for washing methods, Kodak did experiments that showed a good deal of fixer removal occurs through diffusion. Thus a recommendation of 5-minutes soaking in still water before changing. I basically follow Atlantaterry's method with the exception of 5-minutes soaking instead of one. There's also an interesting thread on this site showing a 20-minute presoak may be best.

Correct, the "cold" water temperature in the Southeastern US in summer is rarely below 80F. Here in Alabama, I usually have 80-85F "cold" water in July-August, even without the line going through the attic, only the crawl space. For that reason, I calibrated all my development processes to 75F, since it is easier to heat things up in winter than to cool it down to 68F in summer, and the temperature change between the solutions and wash water is smaller.

Kirk Gittings
30-May-2017, 13:25
I start it out at Dev. temperature and gradually change it to cold water ambient temperature over a couple of minutes. I then wash intermittently with a timer that gives a water change every 10 minutes or so as "washing" is actually a leaching process and does not require constant clean water. Water is getting increasingly expensive here as it will everywhere. Learn to conserve now.

tgtaylor
2-Jun-2017, 20:18
I can't put my hands on it right now but Kodak allows for a warmer or colder water temperature for the wash. For example, for C-41 processing it sets the developer temperature at 100.0 +-0.25 F but permits a temperature 75 to 105F for all the other steps including the wash.

During the Vietnam was, NVA combat photographers were issued 5 roll of film (assuming they were all 36 frames that's 180 images). Since they were unable to send the exposed film back to Hanoi for processing, the rolls were processed in the field. See http://mashable.com/2016/02/05/another-vietnam-photography/#i96a._fclGqC for an interesting description and some of their work.

Thomas