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Sweep
8-May-2017, 12:52
Well for all you seasoned veterans of the forum I will apologise in advance for, no doubt, asking the same questions that get raised by the new kid on the block every time, well, there is a new kid on the block!
Yes, I did use the search function but have you seen how many results come up with "movements" in the title. No? well there are several pages believe me.
So, as I am waiting for my purchased sight unseen Wilderness V 10x8, sorry, let me translate for our American cousins 8x10, camera to wind it's way across Europe, I thought I would spend some time researching the other essentials. As they say, whomever they are, "time spent on reconnaissance is seldom wasted."

If you have been keeping up with my avalanche of recent posts, I think this is my fourth or fifth in 5 years, you will see that what little experience I have is currently with a Fuji GF670 and, whilst it does have bellows, it hasn't got either a detachable lens or any kind of movements if you discount being able to fold it flat!

So, I need a lens or two and this is where this is all leading; lenses.
The problem is that I have no one particular subject matter in mind for the 10x8. I can see me taking a lot of landscapes, architecture and still-life and I would like to try my hand, or should that be eye, at portraiture when a gullible volunteer can be found.

I can get a 240mm Symmar S MC f5.6 Copal 3 for quite reasonable money but this is a little wider than I am used to, but then it leaves the sensible addition of a, say, 360mm at a later date.
What I really would like to know, and I guess these are the questions, is:
1. How much excess image circle/movements are really needed? I suppose the more the merrier but this comes at a price.
2. Would you expect to need more or less movements with a wider lens than a longer lens?
3. Can I buy, say, the 240mm and then buy a 360mm lens in a Sinar DB which I can get for a lot less?
4. If so, what size equivalent Copal shutter is the DB, is there different sizes, and how can I tell?
5. Is the 240mm Symmar S MC f5.6 a sensible first general purpose lens for landscapes and a few still-lifes?

If anybody managed to read the whole of this post without falling asleep you guidance would be appreciated.

Many thanks ...Sweep

Luis-F-S
8-May-2017, 12:59
Get a 12" lens and be done with it! Use it on your trip and then decide what to get next! I travel with a 6 1/2" 12" and 19" lenses! I recently took a trip with my V8 and out of 10 shots, 8 were made with the 12", 1 each with the WA & long lens.

Sweep
8-May-2017, 14:36
Well I suppose I have to thank a moderator for retitling my post to something more relevant, moving it to the correct section and, most importantly, for opening my eyes to the fact that sections actually exist below "Digital Hardware". The way my monitor is set I didn't realise that there were other sections below there or that they are organised alphabetically! :o

Must start to pay attention more

...Sweep

David Karp
8-May-2017, 15:10
A Sinar DB works if you have the proper Sinar shutter mechanism. Otherwise, you get two lens cells and still need a shutter. A 360mm Symmar S or Rodenstock Sironar-N or equivalent will need a No. 3 shutter. Whether you can pick up a No. 3 shutter or a bad lens with a good shutter for a low enough price when combined with the lower price of the lens in DB shutter is an open question.

John Kasaian
8-May-2017, 15:17
How long are the bellows on your camera?

Anything from 240mm to 360mm should get you started. In that range I have a 240 G Claron, 250 WF Ektar, 12" Dagor, 300mm Nikon M, 14" APO Artar and 14" Commercial Ektar.
I never really set out to collect so many redundant lenses, but those things do happen.
Most 8x10 or10x8 cameras will have bellows that will accommodate these focal lengths.
I don't know whats available in the used market in the UK. The image circles of many popular 8x10 lenses are available through links to spec tables on the LF Homepage on the light blue banner way up there^^^^

neil poulsen
8-May-2017, 15:29
SEE RESPONSES IN NON-ITALICS . . .

Well for all you seasoned veterans of the forum I will apologise in advance for, no doubt, asking the same questions that get raised by the new kid on the block every time, well, there is a new kid on the block!

Yes, I did use the search function but have you seen how many results come up with "movements" in the title. No? well there are several pages believe me. So, as I am waiting for my purchased sight unseen Wilderness V 10x8, sorry, let me translate for our American cousins 8x10, camera to wind it's way across Europe, I thought I would spend some time researching the other essentials. As they say, whomever they are, "time spent on reconnaissance is seldom wasted."

If you have been keeping up with my avalanche of recent posts, I think this is my fourth or fifth in 5 years, you will see that what little experience I have is currently with a Fuji GF670 and, whilst it does have bellows, it hasn't got either a detachable lens or any kind of movements if you discount being able to fold it flat!

So, I need a lens or two and this is where this is all leading; lenses.
The problem is that I have no one particular subject matter in mind for the 10x8. I can see me taking a lot of landscapes, architecture and still-life and I would like to try my hand, or should that be eye, at portraiture when a gullible volunteer can be found.

I can get a 240mm Symmar S MC f5.6 Copal 3 for quite reasonable money but this is a little wider than I am used to, but then it leaves the sensible addition of a, say, 360mm at a later date.

What I really would like to know, and I guess these are the questions, is:

1. How much excess image circle/movements are really needed? I suppose the more the merrier but this comes at a price.

Depends on the focal length and the kind of photography. (e.g. architecture, landscape, still-life, etc.) Architecture requires more movements than either landscape or still-life. That said, for 4x5, most of the super-wides above 90mm and regular taking lenses (plasmats like Symmar-S, Sironar N's, Fuji W's, etc.) above 180mm offer sufficient movements for architecture.

I would forget architecture for 8x10, unless the architecture is part of a landscape photograph. Super-wides for 8x10 get super expensive. If a moderate wide-angle like a 250mm lens is wide enough for your purposes, then you'll likely have sufficient movements using non-super wide lenses above that focal length. (e.g., 300mm Symmar-S; 355m G-Claron; 450mm Nikon M. etc.)

2. Would you expect to need more or less movements with a wider lens than a longer lens?

Again, it depends on the type of photography and the focal length. I'm not sure one can really offer any generalizations on this question.

3. Can I buy, say, the 240mm and then buy a 360mm lens in a Sinar DB which I can get for a lot less?

DB lenses don't have shutters. Usual wisdom is to stay away from DB lenses so that each lens has its own shutter. However, if you can mount a Sinar shutter onto your Wilterness V 8x10, I suppose it could make sense. But then, your lenses are tied to Sinar compatible cameras.

4. If so, what size equivalent Copal shutter is the DB, is there different sizes, and how can I tell?

DB lensboards are available for a variety of lenses. Depends on the size of the lens, which DB board one might need.

5. Is the 240mm Symmar S MC f5.6 a sensible first general purpose lens for landscapes and a few still-lifes?

Personally, versus a 240mm Symmar-S, which offers limited movements on an 8x10, I would recommend a Fuji 250mm f6.7 lens. They're reasonably priced, and they have an image circle of 398mm, which offers significant movements on an 8x10.

If anybody managed to read the whole of this post without falling asleep you guidance would be appreciated.

Many thanks ...Sweep

While this query has been more general, if you find that you're interested in a particular lens, it makes sense to ask, indicating the kind of photography that you have in mind.

Jac@stafford.net
8-May-2017, 15:38
John Kasaian answered your question. Let us move on from there.

Sweep
8-May-2017, 15:39
Thanks for your replies guys.
I was originally wondering whether it was practical to swap the shutter between two lenses. For example, I can buy the 240mm Symmar-S MC for 249 (322USD) complete with Copal 3 and a 300mm f5.6 Symmar-S MC in Sinar for 199 (257USD) or a 480mm f9 Apo-Ronnar in Sinar for 289 (373USD). Thinking about it, I suppose if it really made sense everyone would be buying these DB things.

The bellows on the camera are given as between 95 and 660mm. http://bhcamera.us/wilderness810.php
As I am new to this 8x10 malarkey I don't want to end up with my first lens being unsuitable due, for example, to insufficient image circle etc. A fool and his money... :(

Luis-F-S
8-May-2017, 17:23
660 mm is not a whole lot of bellows for an 8x10 camera, A 19" lens will be your practical longest lens. I believe all "modern" 12" lenses will cover 8x10 unless you get a telephoto, which I would stay away from. I would not get a 240 as my first lens, I'd probably get a 12-14" lens. I'd get 1 lens and use it so you can figure out what you're doing.

Leigh
8-May-2017, 17:53
660 mm is not a whole lot of bellows for an 8x10 camera..
???

The "normal" lens focal length on an 8x10 camera is 300mm.
The Flange Focal Length (from the lensboard face to the film) is typically less than that*.

For 1:1 reproduction ratio (life size image on film) you must move the lens forward = to its focal length.
So worst case that would put the lens at 600mm from the film.

Given that the camera body is interposed between the film and the rear of the bellows...
It seems a 660mm bellows should be fine for a normal or slightly longer lens.
If you don't do macro work, the 660mm bellows will be fine for much longer lenses.


- Leigh

*For example: Rodenstock 5.6/300mm FFL = 277.0mm at infinity, 577mm at 1:1 macro

Luis-F-S
8-May-2017, 17:57
Not when a V8 has 30" of bellows, and it's not the longest bellows camera out there. You can't use a 24" lens on that camera!

Leigh
8-May-2017, 18:08
You can't use a 24" lens on that camera!
And why would you __ASSUME__ that anyone wants to use a 24" (600mm) lens on this or any camera?

The FFL for the Nikon T ED 9/600mm is only 409.6mm, easily within the 660mm bellows range.
I guess Nikon didn't know that you can't use this lens on the OP's camera.

- Leigh

Alan Gales
8-May-2017, 18:08
I have a three lens kit for my 8x10 which includes 250mm, 14" (360mm), and 19" (480mm). It's a nice spacing.

Like recommended above. Buy a 12" to 14" (300-360mm) normal focal length first and use it for a while. Then you will know more what you want. If you are unsure which to buy then get the 12" (300mm). They are more common and run cheaper than the 14" (360mm) lenses.

angusparker
8-May-2017, 18:24
My two cents (or tuppence) are here: http://www.angusparkerphoto.com/blog/2016/11/good-lenses-for-an-8x10-view-camera


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Luis-F-S
8-May-2017, 20:13
And why would you __ASSUME__ that anyone wants to use a 24" (600mm) lens on this or any camera?

I guess for the same reason you assume they wouldn't! With a 660 mm belows, you can't! I use not only a 24" lens, but a 30" lens on my V8!

John Kasaian
8-May-2017, 21:19
My thoughts---
Find a good used lens in the 240mm-360mm range in a working shutter and use it for awhile.
Your feet can move you in or out faster and cheaper than changing lenses in most situations.
You'll eventually figure out what focal lengths work best for you, but you'll not know until you've been at it awhile.
Get your used lens in a good working shutter and expect you'll need a cla (but maybe you won't.)

I'd want to spend some time with a conventional lens in a conventional shutter before "marrying" into a system like the DB, or a convertible

A lens with wiggle room I find is far more appreciated in Architecture than landscape, and about never in portraiture IMHO

IIRC, Symmars in 8x10 sizes were used by big commercial studios as were Kodak's Commercial Ektars. People earned their living with these, shooting expensive ad campaigns and slick catalogs as well as satisfying demanding Art Directors in the 60's and 70's, so in good condition they'll be more than up to the task of any photographic adventure your imagination is likely to dream up.
Wringing the goodness out of that lens will be your task! :)

Vaughn
8-May-2017, 22:18
A Fuji W 250/6.7 is a nice wide normal (or long wide) angle lens for 8x10. I think it would pair up nicely with a 360mm. I have both and a 300mm. I hauled all three around Death Valley...that Fuji W 360 is a anchor! But I use it and the 250mm the most.

I would suggest staying away from any system that makes you take a lens and shutter apart in the field. Keep it simple!

Leigh
8-May-2017, 22:22
With a 660 mm belows, you can't! I use not only a 24" lens, but a 30" lens on my V8!
You obviously didn't read my entire post, in which I presented a 600mm lens that works fine on that bellows.

The "normal" lens on an 8x10 camera is 300mm (12").

- Leigh

Sweep
9-May-2017, 00:35
Thank you guys.
Lots of interesting comment which I really appreciate you taking the time to make.
I know I can forget the Sinar system for the time being.
The advice of concentrate more on the hobby than the equipment, and just pick one lens and go out and shoot, is particularly apt as it is something I did needed reminding of. I do love the equipment though!
The main thing your replies give me, though, is a little bit of confidence which I need when learning something new.

Cheers

Alan Gales
9-May-2017, 05:21
A Fuji W 250/6.7 is a nice wide normal (or long wide) angle lens for 8x10. I think it would pair up nicely with a 360mm. I have both and a 300mm. I hauled all three around Death Valley...that Fuji W 360 is a anchor! But I use it and the 250mm the most.

I would suggest staying away from any system that makes you take a lens and shutter apart in the field. Keep it simple!

Vaughn, you forgot to mention how inexpensive the Fuji W 250/6.7 lens is. I paid $300 for mine but I've since seen quite a few nice examples sell for $250 and even less. What a bargain!

I agree that the 250mm does pair up nicely with a 360mm. I own a 14" Commercial Ektar which if you want to be accurate is a 358mm. I ended up rounding it out with a 19" Red Dot Artar.

Sal Santamaura
9-May-2017, 09:35
660 mm is not a whole lot of bellows for an 8x10 camera...


Not when a V8 has 30" of bellows, and it's not the longest bellows camera out there. You can't use a 24" lens on that camera!


And why would you __ASSUME__ that anyone wants to use a 24" (600mm) lens on this or any camera?...

My Phillips Compact II has 667mm of available bellows extension. It weighs 2/3 of what a V8 does and is more rigid -- Dick Phillips came up with his design after owning and using a V8, which he found too heavy. I regularly use my (non-telephoto) 600mm Fujinon C lens on the Phillips. A perfect match for distant subjects.