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Dan Fromm
24-Mar-2017, 06:13
I just came across an eBay listing for one of these monsters. The seller says that only eight (8) were ever made.

Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks,

Dan

Pere Casals
24-Mar-2017, 21:05
I just came across an eBay listing for one of these monsters. The seller says that only eight (8) were ever made.

Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks,

Dan

I don't know, here it says 10 units http://www.diyphotography.net/military-truck-will-become-large-format-camera/

probably you also saw that...

Nice dialyte !!!

It would be interesting to know the differences with the 1800 tessar

It can be interesting to see if it will be sold. It's not owning it: it's using it !!


This Pleogon, aerial Biogon (Not the same kind of lens, also huge, 30kg)

162983


Has been offered for more than one year, at some point offered for the half.


(Sorry Oren for the ebay link)

Dan Fromm
25-Mar-2017, 05:34
Thanks for the reply and links. If I saw the diy link I forgot it quickly.

The 1800/14 tessar type Apo-Nikkor is heavier (cataloged weight 8,860 g vs. the dialyte's 6,430) and its angle covered is 40' narrower. Coverages at infinity are 1137 mm (dialyte) and 1135 mm (tessar).

The coverage claimed in the ebay listing is at 1:1. With respect to general photography, pure fantasy. The coverage in the diy piece is realistic but the illustrations aren't. If the guy is coating plates, he's going to be shooting black/white, not color.

About posting links to ebay listings here without breaking the rules. First save the link to the listing on www.archive.org, then post a link to the link on archive.org.

Pere Casals
25-Mar-2017, 05:47
Thanks for the reply and links. If I saw the diy link I forgot it quickly.

About posting links to ebay listings here without breaking the rules. First save the link to the listing on www.archive.org, then post a link to the link on archive.org.

Thanks for the tip...



So I guess you also arrived to project site http://www.lightcatcher.it/en/#Gallery

You may contact Kurt Moser http://www.lightcatcher.it/en/#Contatti he should know about that, a 1780 owner should, I guess.


Not a joke of camera !!!

One great think about the 1780 (or the 1800) is that one does not transport the camera in a backpack, one rides the 6x6 AWD camera, yeah ! :)

xkaes
25-Mar-2017, 05:48
Let's not leave out the Fujinon A 1200. It was designed as an APO macro lens. It weighted in at an impressive FIVE pounds and needed FOUR AND A HALF FEET of bellows to focus at infinity! If you wanted a 1:1 magnification, you'll need NINE FEET of bellows. But it was really too long for most photographers, so it was not produced for very long. This was a special order lens so it is nearly impossible to find -- let alone to afford. The Fuji literature lists the minimum aperture as f90, but the picture in their literature shows f128. Apparently less than a dozen were made.

Dan Fromm
25-Mar-2017, 06:27
Joe, the A 1200 may have been an apochromat but it was intended for general photography, not, as packaged and sold, for graphic arts applications. Apo-Nikkors and similar lenses from other makers were made for graphic arts applications. When those uses went away many process lenses were scrapped but some escaped are were repurposed by photographers.

I've chased process lenses for years. They can be very good and, if they can be shuttered, relatively inexpensive alternatives to lenses sold for general photography. I've never come across Fuji process lenses. Did Fuji make lenses specifically for that market?

pierre506
25-Mar-2017, 09:19
163001163002163003

xkaes
25-Mar-2017, 13:15
Joe, the A 1200 may have been an apochromat but it was intended for general photography, not, as packaged and sold, for graphic arts applications. Apo-Nikkors and similar lenses from other makers were made for graphic arts applications. When those uses went away many process lenses were scrapped but some escaped are were repurposed by photographers.

I've chased process lenses for years. They can be very good and, if they can be shuttered, relatively inexpensive alternatives to lenses sold for general photography. I've never come across Fuji process lenses. Did Fuji make lenses specifically for that market?

Well, Fuji made six A series lenses from 180mm to 1200mm, all relatively slow. I use a 180mm f9 that is optimized for 1:1 - 1:5 so I use it mostly for macro use, but it is fine for regular work, too. So I call it a macro and Fuji doesn't call it a "process" lens or a "graphic arts lens". They just call it an APO lens optimized for 1:1 - 1:5. So I call it a macro, but I will defer to your expertise in this area. Here's what I know:

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/byseries.htm

bjsmith7474
25-Mar-2017, 14:29
A few years ago I bought a few boxes of Nikkor APOs. Now, I did not get a 1780mm, but I did get the one of the beautifully Nikon - made wooden boxes that was made for the lens. Inside it has a full set of waterhouse stops for the lens, plus a front lens cap, and most interesting for the purposes of this thread, an inspection certificate. It lists the serial number of that lens as 178012. I'd assume that means at least 12 were made, since Nikon usually starts serial numbers at 1.

A bit off topic, but what's an Nikon Auto-Edger 30? It was also in the box also.

Dan Fromm
25-Mar-2017, 14:41
Joe, thanks for the reply and link. I'm well aware of your site, find it very useful. Fuji's Series A lenses can be thought of as process lenses in shutter. I'm still not aware of any lenses that Fuji marketed to the graphic arts market

After WW II many other makers including, in alphabetical order, Agfa, Berthiot, Boyer, Goerz, Konica, Kowa, Nikon, Rodenstock, Schneider, Taylor Hobson, Voigtlaender and Wray made lenses for that market. Why Fuji didn't is a puzzle. They certainly had the ability.

Amedeus
25-Mar-2017, 17:53
I would say that significantly more than 10 were made of the 1780mm/f14 APO

The majority of the 1780mm and 1800mm APO lenses out there were indeed manufactured for reproduction cameras. Not just for graphics but more importantly for mask reduction for semiconductor chips in the early days (lithography)

Three companies had an 1780/1800mm style lens.

Nikon Nikkor APO
Goerz RDA APO
Rodenstock RONAR

Some of these came in 1 or two versions (like RONAR CL) or simply 1780 or 1800mm.

I know for sure that there were 30 RONAR's made, talked to the guys that actually designed these and sold them.

I personally have the 70"/f16 RDA Goerz and based on info I gathered over the years, I suspect that the number that was sold exceeds 30. There were a lot of lithography cameras out there. Plenty of them used 1200mm for graphics but I've been told that semicon lithography was the main driver.

As for Nikon Nikkor 1780 and 1800mm lenses ... 50+ easily both combined.

When the semicon lithography cameras disappeared in the 90's, so did the lenses. Some of them were given away, others were simply destroyed by recyclers that went for the metal and discarded the glass.

Between US and Europe I know about 6 Nikkors, 4 Ronars and 3 Goerz in the 1780 and longer focal length. This is in my limited circle ... there have to be more out there dormant.

Just my 2 cents.

There was also the 2500mm Boyer, I believe less than 20 made.

Pere Casals
25-Mar-2017, 18:03
A bit off topic, but what's an Nikon Auto-Edger 30? It was also in the box also.

Perhaps refers to Lens edgers that cuts the perimetrer of a lens in a particular shape, for example for ophtalmic glasses or sun glasses.

Here you can see the process https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwYTfglPkJo

Pere Casals
25-Mar-2017, 18:13
I'm still not aware of any lenses that Fuji marketed to the graphic arts market


Fuji E-221 Process Lens F4.5 , covers 4x5 , I think is f=190mm

fujinon-xerox 510mm , covers 8x10

I don't know more examples... but they have/had a graphic arts equipment division, I think...

Dan Fromm
25-Mar-2017, 18:30
Rudi, thanks for the reply.

Re 2500/12.5 Apo-Saphirs, I have a Boyer catalog that shows 14 (I just counted) of them. I discussed these things last summer with Eric Beltrando. He wasn't aware of that batch, has seen another batch of 8. That makes 22. Practically speaking, though, they don't exist.

Pere, it is very unlikely that a 190/4.5 lens is apochromatic and has low distortion. These are what the process lenses we've been discussing have in common. Same goes for most lenses made for Xerox copiers. I'm aware of only one that's apochromatic and low distortion. This is the 10.16"/9 Taylor Hobson Copying Lens made for the Haloid Model D type VR, later renamed Xerox 1385. One of Taylor Hobson's Apotals (= Apo Tessar) in a smaller mount than usual. Fine lens, as its smaller brother the 6"/9 Cooke Copying Lens made for Photostat Ltd. I have one of each.

Pere Casals
25-Mar-2017, 19:19
Pere, it is very unlikely that a 190/4.5 lens is apochromatic and has low distortion.

I think the E-221 is also from Xerox machines, so pehaps is not even APO... and just green light optimized...


Rgarding the 1780 / 1800, I've an undocumented guess... I was told that the good performing one is the 1800 Tessar. Perhaps at some time it was difficult to glue those big elements in the rear group... so earlier design 1780 was dialyte... I also was told that a couple of hundreds of 1800mm were made, while few 1780mm units.

Is the 1780 the earlier model? does not ?

Pere Casals
25-Mar-2017, 19:30
I personally have the 70"/f16 RDA Goerz and based on info I gathered over the years, I suspect that the number that was sold exceeds 30. There were a lot of lithography cameras out there. Plenty of them used 1200mm for graphics but I've been told that semicon lithography was the main driver.

As for Nikon Nikkor 1780 and 1800mm lenses ... 50+ easily both combined.


I'm curious, what ammount of LP/mm (at extintion) may resolve those 1800 ? I figure that with those huge image circles a high number it cannot be expected... still because the circle a lot of information is resolved, of course.

Dan Fromm
26-Mar-2017, 05:50
Rgarding the 1780 / 1800, I've an undocumented guess... I was told that the good performing one is the 1800 Tessar. Perhaps at some time it was difficult to glue those big elements in the rear group... so earlier design 1780 was dialyte... I also was told that a couple of hundreds of 1800mm were made, while few 1780mm units.

Is the 1780 the earlier model? does not ?

The dialyte type Apo-Nikkors are newer designs than the tessar types. IIRC, the first tessar type Apo Nikkor came to market before 1950, possibly as early as 1946. There was some overlap, but the tessar types were phased out in favor of the dialytes.

Pere Casals
26-Mar-2017, 09:02
The dialyte type Apo-Nikkors are newer designs than the tessar types. IIRC, the first tessar type Apo Nikkor came to market before 1950, possibly as early as 1946. There was some overlap, but the tessar types were phased out in favor of the dialytes.

Thanks, now it all makes sense. Perhaps for first APO Nikkors (with more primitive coatings) Tessar 3 grups were better for contrast, but with improved coatings a dialyte (perhaps celor variant) could be the best performing choice. I was very wrong thinking that the Tessar types were the modern version.

BTW, nice article http://www.galerie-photo.com/apo-process-nikkors-en.html

Of course I saved it.