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ndwgolf
11-Mar-2017, 09:47
Guys
I planning a nude shoot and I have a question;
I'm thinking of using my Nikor 360mm lens on my Wisner 4 x 5,

1/. What bellows extension if any do I need to add to the exposure........I will be using a strobe as fill flash.
2/. My plan is to take the shot with a Leica S camera until I get the right exposure then use that info to get the same shot with the 4 x 5...........is that correct??

Thanks

Neil

Jim Noel
11-Mar-2017, 10:06
1. The necessary bellows extension factor depends on how far the lens is from the model, so there is no way to answer the question as stated.
2. why take the photo with a different camera? Use a meter to find the appropriate exposure.

Ted R
11-Mar-2017, 10:11
there is guidance here on bellows factors http://www.largeformatphotography.info/bellows-factor.html

The Leica may not be reliable as an exposure meter for large format, but it may be better than nothing.

ndwgolf
11-Mar-2017, 10:13
1. The necessary bellows extension factor depends on how far the lens is from the model, so there is no way to answer the question as stated.
2. why take the photo with a different camera? Use a meter to find the appropriate exposure.
Yes I can do that, but I need to get my head around the bellows factor. Surly when I focus on something near then the lens will be nearer the ground glass correct????

ndwgolf
11-Mar-2017, 10:16
there is guidance here on bellows factors http://www.largeformatphotography.info/bellows-factor.html

The Leica may not be reliable as an exposure meter for large format, but it may be better than nothing.


Ted I have a meter and will use it, I just need to get my head around this "will the bellows need to be extended further if the model is nearer the lens???

karl french
11-Mar-2017, 10:49
Why the 360mm?

Generally, something between 150mm - 210mm would be a typical portrait lens for 4x5. If you're doing full figure studies, you'll likely want an even shorter focal length. If it was me I'd probably work with at 150 and a 210.

Also with these focal lengths you're not going to have to worry too much about bellows extension factors.

As far as metering, go with what you're comfortable with.

locutus
11-Mar-2017, 10:50
No, to focus closer you need to move the lens further away from the film plane....

a 360mm on 5x4 will be quite long and long lenses aren't that easy, are you sure you dont want to take a step closer and use a 210,180 or 150?

ndwgolf
11-Mar-2017, 10:52
Why the 360mm?



As far as metering, go with what you're comfortable with.
I think mainly because its a new lens and I want to try it out, I will take the 210 with me as well

Dan Fromm
11-Mar-2017, 10:54
Yes I can do that, but I need to get my head around the bellows factor. Surly when I focus on something near then the lens will be nearer the ground glass correct????

No. The lens is closest to the GG when focused at infinity, moves away from it when focused closer.

Ted R
11-Mar-2017, 10:55
Yes, when focusing close the lens is moved away from the ground glass and the exposure needs to be greater.

Using a meter the meter will assume the lens is focused at infinity, and that is where the f number scale is accurate. When the lens is moved away from the ground glass the f number scale needs compensation.

For a full length or seated portrait and your lens the amount needed is not huge, probably a half stop to one stop more exposure, one of the charts I linked to shows about one stop correction when the lens is 480mm from the ground glass. With negative film if things are not spot on the print exposure can be adjusted to compensate.

faberryman
11-Mar-2017, 11:05
I think mainly because its a new lens and I want to try it out, I will take the 210 with me as well
Use the lens appropriate for the shot, not the one that is the newest. It doesn't matter whether the model has clothes on or not.

Jim Noel
11-Mar-2017, 11:14
Yes I can do that, but I need to get my head around the bellows factor. Surly when I focus on something near then the lens will be nearer the ground glass correct????

NO,just the opposite - closer objects require lens to film distance to increase

Jim Noel
11-Mar-2017, 11:17
Use your meter. If the exposures are off, adjust accordingly the next time. If you are going to a group shoot, practice on objects at similar distance and lighting before you go.

bobbotron
11-Mar-2017, 11:22
ndwgolf, I'd strongly suggest doing a few rounds of static shot shooting before doing a nude shot. It would be a shame to have your shots not turn out because of exposure or technique issues.

Two23
11-Mar-2017, 11:59
For nude shots, shouldn't you use a lens that was uncoated, like the subject?


Kent in SD

Leigh
11-Mar-2017, 12:01
ndwgolf, I'd strongly suggest doing a few rounds of static shot shooting before doing a nude shot. It would be a shame to have your shots not turn out because of exposure or technique issues.
That is very sound advice.

One problem with nude shoots that doesn't happen with other subjects is the model wants to see the shots.

She's not going to be happy if there are various technical problems, even if you accept the blame for them.
In that case the chance of you getting a second session with her are close to zero.

We had a club shoot with a new model. She attended the meeting where we showed our work.
She ran out of the room crying. The shots were good, just not VERY good as she expected.

You're not shooting a vase full of flowers.
You're shooting a real person in her most vulnerable state.

Exposures must be EXACTLY right.
Variables like lighting and composition create enough possible issues.

- Leigh

MAubrey
11-Mar-2017, 12:23
For nude shots, shouldn't you use a lens that was uncoated, like the subject?


Kent in SD
This is what I've always assumed.

If you were to use a multi-coated lens, I would presume that when you develop the film, the subject would be wearing a parka with a rain pancho over it.

Willie
11-Mar-2017, 13:24
If you are going to photograph Nudes you need to use a Sironar N, Apo Sironar N lens, Macro Sironar N or Grandagon N by Rodenstock.

The "N" designation is their key for special glass in the lens optimized for Nude skin of all colors and textures.

Any other lenses are not optimized for nude skin texture and can be used for clothed subjects and normal portrait work - but are far worse with nude subjects.

dpn
11-Mar-2017, 14:56
I use a 125mm and 210mm for my shoots. A 360mm would be way long and difficult to work with, in my humble opinion. This is double-true if you and/or the model are inexperienced.

Armin Seeholzer
11-Mar-2017, 15:50
If you are going to photograph Nudes you need to use a Sironar N, Apo Sironar N lens, Macro Sironar N or Grandagon N by Rodenstock.

The "N" designation is their key for special glass in the lens optimized for Nude skin of all colors and textures.

Any other lenses are not optimized for nude skin texture and can be used for clothed subjects and normal portrait work - but are far worse with nude subjects.

Thats a good one I like it;--))))

jp
11-Mar-2017, 19:12
For a 360mm lens, use an 8x10 camera. You can use a 4x5 reducing back if needed. Otherwise, I'm guessing most 4x5 cameras don't have enough bellows.

I'd second the idea of not using an unfamiliar lens for people photos. You want the LF setup to work comfortably and without surprises so you can tend to the photography rather than the tools.

Alan Gales
11-Mar-2017, 23:16
That is very sound advice.

One problem with nude shoots that doesn't happen with other subjects is the model wants to see the shots.

She's not going to be happy if there are various technical problems, even if you accept the blame for them.
In that case the chance of you getting a second session with her are close to zero.

We had a club shoot with a new model. She attended the meeting where we showed our work.
She ran out of the room crying. The shots were good, just not VERY good as she expected.

You're not shooting a vase full of flowers.
You're shooting a real person in her most vulnerable state.

Exposures must be EXACTLY right.
Variables like lighting and composition create enough possible issues.

- Leigh

Wow! Ran out of the room crying? I'm sure your club's shots were way better than the cell phone nudies that young ladies send to their boyfriends today.

bobbotron
12-Mar-2017, 07:48
That is very sound advice.

One problem with nude shoots that doesn't happen with other subjects is the model wants to see the shots.

She's not going to be happy if there are various technical problems, even if you accept the blame for them.
In that case the chance of you getting a second session with her are close to zero.

We had a club shoot with a new model. She attended the meeting where we showed our work.
She ran out of the room crying. The shots were good, just not VERY good as she expected.

You're not shooting a vase full of flowers.
You're shooting a real person in her most vulnerable state.

Exposures must be EXACTLY right.
Variables like lighting and composition create enough possible issues.

- Leigh

Leigh, thanks, this is spot on what I was thinking. You really want to respect your model's time and commitment when taking such photos!

Mark Sawyer
12-Mar-2017, 13:33
"The over-exposure of the negative is a metaphor for the over-exposure of flesh to the viewer, while the developing marks speak to the marks left on the soul by the act of being photographed nude. The inability to focus a long lens with a short bellows implies the inability of man to focus on long term goals in the face of short term gratification. The artist's unfamiliarity with his tools is parallel to Everyman's unfamiliarity with the opposite sex. And the ketchup stains on the print from eating a hot dog over it while matting refer to the need for society to 'catch up' with modern morality."

It's all in the artist's statement...

Tobias Key
12-Mar-2017, 14:34
You don't mention whether or not you have a conventional 360mm lens or a telephoto, so a lot of this advice might be moot. I do shoot models and I did a shoot just last week where I used my 360 tele-xenar. I didn't notice any significant difference in handling to my 210mm, and feel it was particularly slower to shoot with even though it was my first time using the lens in earnest. What I would say is that when you are shooting closer than half length the 360mm gives you a greater working distance between yourself and the model, which makes positioning lights easier, and feels more respectful (to me at least).

Jim Noel
12-Mar-2017, 14:39
For nude shots, shouldn't you use a lens that was uncoated, like the subject?


Kent in SD

Actually that is exactly what I do. I have never photographed a nude with a coated lens.

DrTang
13-Mar-2017, 09:15
for 4x5.. I usually use a 210... for 5x7..I use a 240 or 300 and for 8x10 I use from 12" to 20"

360 on a 4x5 is gonna be awefully tight and she's gotta hold pretty still as even a little movement will take her out of focus

and yes... I usually shoot with a digital at first to not only get exposure and pose right..but to get those first 'nervous' shots out of the way...back in the film days I always figured the first roll was gonna be useless... and that the model will settle in by the second

callmebrick
13-Mar-2017, 09:20
If you are going to photograph Nudes you need to use a Sironar N, Apo Sironar N lens, Macro Sironar N or Grandagon N by Rodenstock.

The "N" designation is their key for special glass in the lens optimized for Nude skin of all colors and textures.

Any other lenses are not optimized for nude skin texture and can be used for clothed subjects and normal portrait work - but are far worse with nude subjects.


I must be using M lenses because all of my photographs are Mediocre.

drew.saunders
13-Mar-2017, 09:59
Guys
I planning a nude shoot and I have a question;
I'm thinking of using my Nikor 360mm lens on my Wisner 4 x 5,

1/. What bellows extension if any do I need to add to the exposure........I will be using a strobe as fill flash.
Neil

You don't say which Wisner you have, but, thankfully, B&H has their 2007 Professional Photography Sourcebook online (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/FreeCatalog.jsp), which has the specs for all the Wisner's being sold back then. The Traditional and Expedition have 20" of bellows draw, the Technical has 23", all of which should be enough for your 360mm lens. The Nikkor 360/6.5 lens requires 346mm of bellows draw at infinity (See http://www.ebonycamera.com/articles/lenses.html) which means you get a "free" 14mm extra bellows when doing calculations. Ken Lee kindly has all the equations in one place at http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/tech/bellows.php. Your Nikkor 360mm will focus as close as 1.16m with 20" (508mm) of bellows (treating the bellows as 522mm due to the flange focal distance of your lens), which is pretty close, so it'll work for full body shots. That's 1/360 - 1/522 = 1/1160, if you're curious about the math(s). You can focus even closer with the Technical's 23" of draw, if that's your camera (1/360 - 1/(584 + 14) = 1/905). You'll be further from the subject than with a 210mm or 240/250mm, but that may make a more comfortable experience for a nude model, that's for you to decide.

As far as how bellows extension relates to subject distance, it might be easier to think of it as: as the subject gets closer to the lens, the film has to move back from the lens. In practice, of course, most cameras move the lens relative to the film, but it may help to visualize the film plane "reacting" to the subject getting closer by moving back. I also may have completely confused you.

For a full-body shot, you're probably not getting into the realm of much exposure compensation, as you'll be far enough away that you won't be extending the bellows all that much from their infinity position.

Leigh
13-Mar-2017, 11:42
That's 1/360 - 1/522 = 1/1160, if you're curious about the math(s).
The relevant formula, which you neglected to present, is: 1/f = 1/Ds + 1/Df
Where Ds = distance from lens to subject and Df = distance from lens to film.

The gotcha here is that the D dimensions are measured from the front and rear lens nodes.
On "normal" lenses for various formats, those nodes may be close or even coincident.
But on long lenses they can be separated significantly.
On a telephoto lens, the rear node is generally way out in front of the front element.

- Leigh

ndwgolf
13-Mar-2017, 11:52
Okay thanks for all the replies..........sorry I was vague with my initial post, so let me give you some more info The Wisner camera that I have is a Wisner 4 x 5 Tech Filed The lens that I want to use is a Nikon Nikkor-T* ED 360mm F8 Lens............The models are cool, I'm paying them and as long as they get paid they dont care what my photos look like..........its a financial transaction.
Ive rented a one bedroom suite with its own private pool so we will be able to shoot both indoors and out.
Im using 100 ASA film and Profoto B1 heads with Profoto Air trigger

ndwgolf
13-Mar-2017, 11:58
The relevant formula, which you neglected to present, is: 1/f = 1/Ds + 1/Df
Where Ds = distance from lens to subject and Df = distance from lens to film.

The gotcha here is that the D dimensions are measured from the front and rear lens nodes.
On "normal" lenses for various formats, those nodes may be close or even coincident.
But on long lenses they can be separated significantly.
On a telephoto lens, the rear node is generally way out in front of the front element.

- Leigh


Right now I'm going to meter the ambient, add 1 full stop and then add 20 to 30% fill flash. I will shoot first with my Leica S007 without adding the 1 stop and see what they look like

locutus
13-Mar-2017, 12:40
360 is far to long to shoot indoor......

ndwgolf
13-Mar-2017, 13:09
360 is far to long to shoot indoor......
Even for a head and nipple shot???

Jac@stafford.net
13-Mar-2017, 13:14
Model: Why do you choose such cold days for outdoor nudes?
Me: It's not cold. It's nippie.
.

Armin Seeholzer
13-Mar-2017, 13:36
Even for a head and nipple shot???

For this it should work, its about like a 100mm lens on 35mm, if the room is large it should even be possible to shoot full body!

Cheers Armin

lenser
13-Mar-2017, 17:30
Unless you are doing very close up anatomical mages, you probably don't need to worry about a bellows factor.

I would suggest buying a decent meter like a used spot meter or luna pro instead of wasting so much time and mental gymnastics going back and forth from one camera system to the other trying to figure out exposure by such a hunt and peck methodology. You can do that, but a simple hand held meter will make life much easier.

ndwgolf
13-Mar-2017, 22:53
Unless you are doing very close up anatomical mages, you probably don't need to worry about a bellows factor.

I would suggest buying a decent meter like a used spot meter or luna pro instead of wasting so much time and mental gymnastics going back and forth from one camera system to the other trying to figure out exposure by such a hunt and peck methodology. You can do that, but a simple hand held meter will make life much easier.
I already have a Sekonic 758DR.............that I will take with me. The point of using my Leica S is #1 it takes frigging amazing pictures, and # 2 its a cover my a$$ to at least confirm what the exposure should be. After spending $1500 on room and model feels I want to make sure I get some decent pictures with the S and hopefully get some nice shots with the Wisner.............we will see :)

Dan Fromm
14-Mar-2017, 07:24
After spending $1500 on room and model feels I want to make sure I get some decent pictures with the S and hopefully get some nice shots with the Wisner.............we will see :)

Suddenly everything is much clearer.

Steven Tribe
14-Mar-2017, 08:32
I am sure it will go well. The models in your website look very much at ease.

Will Whitaker
14-Mar-2017, 09:21
Gosh, photography sure has gotten expensive!

wrt your original question (I think...) If using a 210mm (or 8-inch) non-telephoto lens, think of the focal length as an f/stop, i.e., f/8. As your lens-to-subject distance decreases (camera gets closer to the subject) you will have to move the lens away from the film plane in order to hold focus. When you're close enough to the subject that the lens is 11 inches from the film plane, your bellows factor is 1 stop (f/11 - f/8 = 1 stop). That's the conventional rule of thumb, anyway. And it is completely independent of the state of dress of the model. I admit it's simplistic, but it dispenses with non-linearities and is easy to remember.

Drew Bedo
14-Mar-2017, 13:19
Every time I try to do nude photography, I either catch a cold or get sunburned.

don mishler
14-Mar-2017, 17:27
Gosh, photography sure has gotten expensive!

wrt your original question (I think...) If using a 210mm (or 8-inch) non-telephoto lens, think of the focal length as an f/stop, i.e., f/8. As your lens-to-subject distance decreases (camera gets closer to the subject) you will have to move the lens away from the film plane in order to hold focus. When you're close enough to the subject that the lens is 11 inches from the film plane, your bellows factor is 1 stop (f/11 - f/8 = 1 stop). That's the conventional rule of thumb, anyway. And it is completely independent of the state of dress of the model. I admit it's simplistic, but it dispenses with non-linearities and is easy to remember.

I worked for a commercial photographer that always kept a yard stick handy and figured out his bellows factors that way (we did a lot of product shots fairly close up) I always wondered why this method had not been taught in the Photography School I went to

David Schaller
14-Mar-2017, 19:22
I keep a tape measure with the camera, and use a table I made for each lens. The method Will mentioned is great too.

lungovw
19-Mar-2017, 15:02
Ndwgolf, I made an online simulator that might be useful for you https://apenasimagens.com/en/focal-length-distances-and-framing/

Mark Sawyer
20-Mar-2017, 11:58
I just divide my bellows extension by my aperture and get my f/stop.