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mixthe76
24-Feb-2017, 21:52
So I've just purchased a Toyo 810g and I'm looking for a new tripod. I currently own a Vanguard tripod with a pan/tilt head for my 4x5 monorail and would like to get something similar that can hold the extra weight of the 8x10. With the weight of the 810g being around 20lbs, it seemed like the majority of heads suited for that weight (around 25-30lbs) are predominately ball heads. I've never used a ball head before and feel like there would be nothing to hold onto when changing the position/tilting of the camera like there is with a pan/tilt head besides the actual rail of the camera which I'm not sure is the best practice or could possibly damage the rail??
What kind of head are you using for your monorail? If you own a ball head do you have any issues with tilting the camera?

Leigh
24-Feb-2017, 21:56
I think ball heads are totally useless with a view camera.

There are enough problems setting the camera properly when you do only one axis at a time.

With a ball head, if you get one axis right, you lose that adjustment when trying to do the other axis.

Ball heads are designed for video cameras that need to rotate all over the place.

I use a Monarch tripod with a geared head. It's geared for front/back tilt, and just locked for left/right tilt.
I don't know if there are different sizes available. The one I have would support a small truck.
I know you can get them with single or dual (side-by-side) legs. I have one of each.

- Leigh

Two23
24-Feb-2017, 22:11
For a small 4x5 field camera a quality ballhead works fine. For bigger stuff, such as the 4x5 Cambo monorail I first had, I was using a Bogen/Manfrotto 3047 head. That thing was a beast, and it was solid!


Kent in SD

neil poulsen
24-Feb-2017, 23:07
I had an 810G for a while. Wow: Heavy! :eek:

It's expensive, but I think your best option would be a Ries system tripod and head at www.riestripod.com. I would use two clamps and a plate for added stability, fastening the underside of the plate to the Ries.

For example, I tried a Manfrotto 475 tripod with the 3039 head, both having weight capacities above 20lbs. But, I felt camera shake was too much. Tried a 3372 Feisol, heavy duty CF tripod with the 3039 head. Also tried a Gitzo 1570 head with one or both of the 475 or the 3372. Still a little subject to moment-arm vibration, but better than without the 1570.

Leszek Vogt
25-Feb-2017, 00:05
My Arca-Swiss (rated for 130lbs) supports all my gear - no perspiration.

Les

Alan9940
25-Feb-2017, 08:28
When working out of the car, I use a Ries A100 with their head; extremely solid setup. When hiking, I use a Gitzo 1570 mounted on carbon fiber legs. For reference, my 8x10 camera/lens weight is 12 - 15 lbs, depending on lens mounted. Never had any issues with either tripod setup.

Randy Moe
25-Feb-2017, 08:31
Majestic on Arkay Studio stand or Majestic tripod.

neil poulsen
25-Feb-2017, 08:40
I do just fine with my CF tripod and 3039 head for a 13lbs 8x10. But raise the weight to that of the 810G, and my tripod and head were outweighed.

And it's not just weight, either. It's also design and whether the equipment becomes subject to tuning fork vibrations. My current tripod and head could handle the weight of the 810G just fine. But the propensity of the system to vibrate was problematic. Without having owned one, this is where I think that wood design can have an advantage.

Len Middleton
25-Feb-2017, 08:55
So I've just purchased a Toyo 810g and I'm looking for a new tripod. I currently own a Vanguard tripod with a pan/tilt head for my 4x5 monorail and would like to get something similar that can hold the extra weight of the 8x10. With the weight of the 810g being around 20lbs, it seemed like the majority of heads suited for that weight (around 25-30lbs) are predominately ball heads. I've never used a ball head before and feel like there would be nothing to hold onto when changing the position/tilting of the camera like there is with a pan/tilt head besides the actual rail of the camera which I'm not sure is the best practice or could possibly damage the rail??
What kind of head are you using for your monorail? If you own a ball head do you have any issues with tilting the camera?

The answers might be more relevant, if you indicated how the 8x10 monorail was going to be used...

Studio only, location work, hiking (yikes), some combination...

I am another one who does not like ball heads for LF work.

My preferred head is a Linhof Karden leveling head working on the same idea as the Reis plan-head.

Hope that helps,

Len

mixthe76
25-Feb-2017, 17:49
The answers might be more relevant, if you indicated how the 8x10 monorail was going to be used...

Studio only, location work, hiking (yikes), some combination...

I am another one who does not like ball heads for LF work.

My preferred head is a Linhof Karden leveling head working on the same idea as the Reis plan-head.

Hope that helps,

Len

Yea I'd use the 8x10 for studio and some location work every once in a while. What's the difference of a leveling head to other heads?

Dan Fromm
25-Feb-2017, 19:18
The leveler sits between the tripod's axis and the head. When setting up with a leveler the first step is to level the head. This makes the pan axis vertical, ensures that the horizon won't move up or down when panning. Much more useful for cinematography, which is why I got one, that for still photography. Not absolutely necessary for still photography but I wouldn't do without one in the field.

I don't work in a studio, suspect that in a studio with level floors there's really no need for a leveler.

Leigh
25-Feb-2017, 20:32
I don't work in a studio, suspect that in a studio with level floors there's really no need for a leveler.
Hi Dan,

There's no need for a leveler on any tripod with adjustable legs. You just change the leg length as needed.

That might be easier with some tripod designs that with others.

Sorry.

- Leigh

Dan Fromm
26-Feb-2017, 06:56
Leigh, all that you say is true and I've done what you suggest. It is slow and painful. I'm not that much of a masochist. Whatever makes you happy ...

Cheers,

Dan

asf
26-Feb-2017, 09:33
Look for a Majestic, a larger Reis, manfrotto 400, foba asmia, or Toyo TPM-II

Majestic will be the best bang for the buck, you can often find a complete head and legs set for $200-400. I'm not a majestic expert so can't suggest which ones to look for.


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Randy Moe
26-Feb-2017, 16:46
Notice this link, posted today on another thread about AA and His Norma.

AA is using the same model Majestic head and legs I have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-ZCEXWdIMg

Leigh
26-Feb-2017, 17:16
Notice this link, posted today on another thread about AA and His Norma.
AA is using the same model Majestic head and legs I have.
And same as mine.

- Leigh

Michael Graves
26-Feb-2017, 18:28
I am going to both agree and disagree with Leigh. I disagree, in that when I'm using my 4x5 Chamonix, I wouldn't want anything but my ball head. For with a larger cameras, however, I prefer a pan\tilt. The larger cameras make using a ball head extremely difficult. After fighting with several different versions of tripod head, I finally went back in time, and got an old Gitzo Rationale 4. not even my horsemen 8x10 fazes that beast, and it operates as smoothly as silk.

Leigh
26-Feb-2017, 19:18
I am going to both agree and disagree with Leigh.
If one head would satisfy everybody...

They'd only make one head. :cool:

- Leigh

Will Whitaker
26-Feb-2017, 20:00
161877

De rigueur for the well-dressed Norma.

I have a large Linhof tripod with a Kardan head. It is massive and beautiful in its Teutonic way. I thought it would be good for the Sinar in 8x10 dress. But honestly the Sinar Pan/Tilt head is quite adequate. Those Swiss engineers know their stuff! Can't say if one (or one of the Chinese knock-offs (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?135456-Chinese-Copy-of-Sinar-Pan-Tilt-Heads&highlight=chinese+sinar+head)) could be adapted to a Toyo 810G, but might be worth some thought.

Gitzo G1548Mk2 legs, for the perpetually curious. ;-)

mixthe76
27-Feb-2017, 00:18
The leveler sits between the tripod's axis and the head. When setting up with a leveler the first step is to level the head. This makes the pan axis vertical, ensures that the horizon won't move up or down when panning. Much more useful for cinematography, which is why I got one, that for still photography. Not absolutely necessary for still photography but I wouldn't do without one in the field.

I don't work in a studio, suspect that in a studio with level floors there's really no need for a leveler.

Thanks for the info Dan! Lots of other useful info on this thread as well!

Thalmees
28-Feb-2017, 16:10
..., it seemed like the majority of heads suited for that weight (around 25-30lbs) are predominately ball heads. I've never used a ball head before and feel like there would be nothing to hold onto when changing the position/tilting of the camera like there is with a pan/tilt head ...
If you own a ball head do you have any issues with tilting the camera?
.
Hello,
Ball heads now have a precision fraction/tension control. In some examples, they have a separate tilt function.
Please check FLM CB-58, its weight capacity is beyond what any photographer may need(130Lb). It has also a separate tilt function(more about this in the 4th paragraph of this post).
RRS BH-55(low profile. Actually the lowest profile I know among full size ball heads in the market now), is another excellent example, but its payload capacity(50Lb) is below the FLM CB-58.
The extra load capacity beyond the camera weight, is not something passive. It's still valid or active, to facilitate friction control(for example) for more precise and smooth function.
The problem with payload capacity, is being not objective parameter, not standardized.
I used both ball heads for more than enough time now. Both are excellent, least saying.
.
But, with large format(specially mono-rails), the tripod weight(alone) is as important as any other feature in the tripod itself or in the tripod head.
The tripod weight should exceed the standards adopted in the digital realm nowadays. Its very biased toward simplicity and mobility(lower size/weight) of the tripod in its self, not as an essential photo requirement.
As an example, IMO, the tripod weight of Gitzo series 4 and RRS TVC-3x series(they are equivalent/4-5.5 Lbs without tripod head) or any equivalent tripod of any sort of material, is not enough to support a monorail camera(like Sinar 4X5, C2, with usual weight lens/10Lb with lens), UNLESS an extra weight is used hanged under the top plate.
Even, if you added a 2Lb ballhead, the amount of friction needed(for gross camera adjustment) on the ball head is too high to be accommodated by a lower weight tripod for appropriate stability. The problem is exaggerated(truly not apparently) if you used a longer focal length lens.
After you lock the main knob, the fine adjustments of the camera could be transferred easily to the tripod, if it is of lower weight.
The difference in weight is not that much, if you decided to start with enough weight tripod.
If you backpack, you may have to use a field camera in the first place, and accordingly the tripod weight can be lower.
.
BTW, load capacity of ballheads is much higher in general than pan-tilt-swivel(3 way) tripod heads, though the apparent! stability of the later looks more, which I think due to step by step sequence of work flow only.
Load capacity, if other components added to the tripod(leveling base, head or panning base), is the lowest number among the components of the tripod system, wither that rate is of the tripod itself or of any added piece. Please consider this when you chose to use any thing more than tripod head.
.
Ball heads may be used more, due to:
* Smaller size(but not necessarily lower in weight) and can bear more weight.
* One lock to stabilize every thing. It has all axis at one point.
* Tension control, it's really precise in the top rated ballheads(not exclusive to the examples above).
* Tilt control. This if accurate, it turns your ball head to a pan-tilt head of a very high stability. The FLM CB-58 has this feature, its practically accurate.
But honestly, the tilt function of CB-58, is not scientifically accurate. Still very useful feature, because the lateral readjustment is just minor. If you consider that and compensated for it on the first lateral adjustment, you may not even need any further lateral readjustment after adjusting camera tilt.
* Muti-Format. Same size/same system of smaller plates that locks tightly every time and can be left permanently in each of your equipment.
.
All that said about ball heads, it does not mean pan-tilt heads have no advantage. They have, but I know and use only ball heads since long time.
Hope you find my post useful.

Len Middleton
28-Feb-2017, 16:55
Yea I'd use the 8x10 for studio and some location work every once in a while. What's the difference of a leveling head to other heads?

My head for 8x10 and 8x20

161949

Christopher Barrett
28-Feb-2017, 18:32
When my 8x10 F Metric arrived, I found that my Arca Cube wasn't quite up to the task. I ordered their Z2+ ball head and couldn't be happier. Tilt is on a separate axis, which makes leveling painless.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images2500x2500/arca_swiss_801133_monoball_fliplock_z2_double_1029545.jpg

asf
28-Feb-2017, 19:19
I used to use the B2 with my f metric 8x10 and it wasn't solid enough side to side. The z2 is a couple generations newer so I'd expect it to be improved.

I doubt it could handle an 810G, you'd have to fit an arca plate and in my experience the arca clamp isn't strong enough for a camera as big as the 810G (I've tried).



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DG 3313
28-Feb-2017, 19:38
+1 the 3047 head is a beast............
For a small 4x5 field camera a quality ballhead works fine. For bigger stuff, such as the 4x5 Cambo monorail I first had, I was using a Bogen/Manfrotto 3047 head. That thing was a beast, and it was solid!


Kent in SD

Dan Fromm
28-Feb-2017, 20:08
+1 the 3047 head is a beast............

The 3039//229 is stronger. I overloaded a 3047 somewhat with my Baby Bertha and it complained. Baby Bertha was built around a 2x3 Cambo monorail but much of the weight was in the SLR module (2x3 RB Ser. B), a heavy lens (4 kg of 900/10) and the crutch (SC-1 standard). A 3039/229 bears the load without problems.

Leigh
28-Feb-2017, 20:20
The 3039//229 is stronger. I overloaded a 3047 somewhat with my Baby Bertha and it complained. Baby Bertha was built around a 2x3 Cambo monorail but much of the weight was in the SLR module (2x3 RB Ser. B), a heavy lens (4 kg of 900/10) and the crutch (SC-1 standard). A 3039/229 bears the load without problems.
Hi Dan,

That might convey the intent for those familiar with all the components.

For the rest of us, a simple "The camera weighs xx pounds" would likely be more meaningful.

- Leigh

DG 3313
28-Feb-2017, 20:28
I can't speak for the 3039//229 but, I have used the same tripod (Bogen 3021 legs and 3047 head) for twenty years with a Horseman 450L and a Sironar-N 210 F5.6 racked out and up close with no slip. I would recommend this rig to anyone for anything up to 20 lbs. of camera.




The 3039//229 is stronger. I overloaded a 3047 somewhat with my Baby Bertha and it complained. Baby Bertha was built around a 2x3 Cambo monorail but much of the weight was in the SLR module (2x3 RB Ser. B), a heavy lens (4 kg of 900/10) and the crutch (SC-1 standard). A 3039/229 bears the load without problems.

asf
28-Feb-2017, 20:36
As someone with a lot of experience using the 810G with different heads I can say a 3047 is not adequate

The 3039 should be fine

(Yes I've used several 3047s)

The 810G and others like the big old Linhof Kardan 810s aren't just heavy, they're physically large. Produces a lot of stress on any head.


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uphereinmytree
1-Mar-2017, 03:45
I use a variety of newer gitzo 3 way heads. g1370m seems plenty for a 4x5 monorail and I use a deardorff 8x10 on it also. A g1570M may be required for heavier 8x10 monorails. The M is for magnesium which makes it lighter. all of the gitzo heads i have seem to need regular maintenance to stay smooth. Gitzo has it's own grease that has some resistance so that when a camera is attached, the movements are smooth but not loose.

Also, I avoid any quick releases as they are in my opinion just another place to introduce vibration or movement.

asf
1-Mar-2017, 04:30
The magnesium versions are lighter but also more flexible

The older non M 1570 is better for a heavy monorail

The problem with the 1570 for monorails is the cork bed which is too spongy. It's fine for a flatbed camera where there's a much larger surface area in contact with the head.


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Thalmees
2-Mar-2017, 02:48
Also, I avoid any quick releases as they are in my opinion just another place to introduce vibration or movement.
Hello uphereinmytree,
Thanks for sharing your experience.
May I know if you based your openion on a certain parameters?
Please share more information about this, if possible.
Thanks too much.