Problem with tilt and swing

[ndwgolf]

Guys
Yesterday I took this picture and was trying to get everything in focus by swinging the front element to more or less parallel to the subject, I couldn't get it and in the end stopped down to f64 just to make the picture.
Basically I was focusing on the nearest part of the old bridge and then swinging the lens trying to get the furthest part in focus, it would focus on the furthest part but then the near was out of focus..........
Any tips or help would be much appreciated

[ndwgolf]

Guys
Yesterday I took this picture and was trying to get everything in focus by swinging the front element to more or less parallel to the subject, I couldn't get it and in the end stopped down to f64 just to make the picture.
Basically I was focusing on the nearest part of the old bridge and then swinging the lens trying to get the furthest part in focus, it would focus on the furthest part but then the near was out of focus..........
Any tips or help would be much appreciated
http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa414/ndwgolf1/2017-02-02-0001_zpsmhbkw6oc.jpg

[Christopher Barrett]

Hmm, you wouldn't need very much swing for a shot like that. Maybe you overdid it? Personally, since the perspective on the bridge is such a subtle angle, I probably would have kept it straight and stopped down.

[ndwgolf]

Hmm, you wouldn't need very much swing for a shot like that. Maybe you overdid it? Personally, since the perspective on the bridge is such a subtle angle, I probably would have kept it straight and stopped down.
Thats what I ended up doing...........thanks for the feedback.
I remember watching a youtube video and it sure as hell looked easier than what I experienced yesterday :) :)

[Lachlan 717]

What focal length lens?

[ndwgolf]

What focal length lens?
Sir I was using a 210mm lens

[loonatic45414]

Check your focus & adjust after the swing. Your lens to film distance changes when you swing causing a change in focus.

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[Vaughn]

If your goal is to get everything in focus, then do not pick the structure as your 'subject' to line up with. That is the ground in front of you.

I'd keep the camera level (keep the back straight up), drop the front a little to taste, use a little front tilt, but no swing. At least I would never use swing in this circumstance. Then I'd close down until I have the parts of the pier structure that stick out of the plane of focus, in focus.

[koraks]

Guys
Basically I was focusing on the nearest part of the old bridge and then swinging the lens trying to get the furthest part in focus, it would focus on the furthest part but then the near was out of focus..........
So you didn't get the angle right. It's an iterative process. Decide on which direction you need to swing, swing a bit, check if the nearest part requires more bellows extension to get it into focus than the furthest part of your subject - if so, swing a little more and check again. If the furthest part needs more bellows extension to get it into focus, you took it too far and need to decrease the swing a bit.

[loonatic45414]

I'm not criticizing the OP on their choice of using swing / tilt, exposure, subject, film, whatever.

The focus (pun intended) was on focus. Creative use of movements is up to the poster, in my opinion.

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[loonatic45414]

I am not sure where people have turned this into a forum on what the OP should do with respect to swing, tilt, etc.

This is about focus, not the posters creative judgement. The solution is to check focus after applying the movement, not before.

Keep in mind there may be some exposure change due to bellows extension with larger swings. You may be better off with a smaller aperture to increase depth of field in this case, or a combination of the two.

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[Lachlan 717]

The solution is to check focus after applying the movement, not before.

How do you know whether you need to apply any movements if you don't check the focus before applying said movements?

Pretty sure your solution is nonsensical.

[loonatic45414]

Okay, once more for the slower of those among us.

Focus.
Apply movements.
Focus again.

Duh.

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[Kevin Crisp]

I was thinking exactly what Vaughn was thinking. A little front tilt and stop down and you won't have to get near f:64.

Very sparing or no movements usually get the job done. People get suckered into using them when they don't need them, possibly by those advertising photos of cameras tied in knots.

[tgtaylor]

Swing is analogous to tilt. For a discussion see http://www.largeformatphotography.info/how-to-focus.html and practice.

Thomas

[Lachlan 717]

Okay, once more for the slower of those among us.

Focus.
Apply movements.
Focus again.

Duh.

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So, when you (initially) wrote, "The solution is to check focus after applying the movement, not before" you were incorrect? You'll have to pardon me for being one of the "slower ones amongst us"...

[loonatic45414]

Checking your focus amounts to a final inspection prior to exposure, not the actual act of focusing.

*clearing my throat*

Duh

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[Lachlan 717]

Checking your focus amounts to a final inspection prior to exposure, not the actual act of focusing.

*clearing my throat*

Duh

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That makes it clearer - focus is different to focus, but similar to focus.

Well clarified, sir. Well clarified...

[Thom Bennett]

Swing (or Tilt): Once you determine you need one or the other, focus on the farthest point, then swing (or tilt) in the direction of the nearest point until the far and near points are equally out of focus. Lock the swing (or tilt), refocus and, if you did it right, both points will pop into focus at the same time. The trick is determining when both points are equally out of focus but once you do it a few times it gets surprisingly quick and easy. It's all on the ground glass.

[Vaughn]

Swing (or Tilt): ...The trick is determining when both points are equally out of focus but once you do it a few times it gets surprisingly quick and easy. It's all on the ground glass.

I do this by closing the aperature down while observing those two points (for me, usually the near and far points) on the GG. If they both come into focus at the same time, I figure I am pretty dang close.

[loonatic45414]

That makes it clearer - focus is different to focus, but similar to focus.

Well clarified, sir. Well clarified...
If the simple act of focusing a camera still eludes you, get a digital camera & save yourself the trouble of trying to learn photography.

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[ndwgolf]

Swing (or Tilt): Once you determine you need one or the other, focus on the farthest point, then swing (or tilt) in the direction of the nearest point until the far and near points are equally out of focus. Lock the swing (or tilt), refocus and, if you did it right, both points will pop into focus at the same time. The trick is determining when both points are equally out of focus but once you do it a few times it gets surprisingly quick and easy. It's all on the ground glass.
Fantastic......I will try that today thanks

[Vaughn]

...Basically I was focusing on the nearest part of the old bridge and then swinging the lens trying to get the furthest part in focus, it would focus on the furthest part but then the near was out of focus..........
Any tips or help would be much appreciated

Just noticed this part. If your front swing is on the axis of the lens, then I suggest focusing around 1/3 of the way along the bridge (from near to far), then apply swing. Perhaps this is what Thomas meant by swing being analogous to tilt, as this is what one does with a generic landscape (focusing about a third of the way into the scene and then applying front tilt if needed). Of course base tilt requires major refocusing.

[Kevin Crisp]

If the simple act of focusing a camera still eludes you, get a digital camera & save yourself the trouble of trying to learn photography.

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Seriously? You joined the forum a couple months ago and have made it your mission to condescend and insult at will? A beginner is asking for advice. Most of us were beginners once. There are books written on focusing a view camera. Not everyone can pick it up instantly from snide comments.

[ndwgolf]

Seriously? You joined the forum a couple months ago and have made it your mission to condescend and insult at will? A beginner is asking for advice. Most of us were beginners once. There are books written on focusing a view camera. Not everyone can pick it up instantly from snide comments.
+1

[loonatic45414]

You began the snide remarks, so own it.

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[loonatic45414]

I offered my assistance. You began the attacks. Own it.

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[loonatic45414]

To the original poster:

To further qualify Vaughn's response, if you'll notice the distance marks on your lens are together as you get closer to infinity. You ideally need to choose a point that's 1/3 from your closest point of focus to be the center of your swing.

The near & far points should then come out of focus somewhat equally as your plane of focus changes. At this point, refocus & see if it is possible to get a reasonable focus throughout your subject plane.

If not, you may try increasing your depth of field by closing down your aperture.

I suppose I should also mention to compensate with an increase in shutter speed or choose a sufficiently faster film. In the event that your shutter speed requires an exposure longer than 1/8 of a second, check the film reciprocity requirements and increase exposure time as required.

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[ic-racer]

swinging the front element to more or less parallel to the subject,

Actually, no. When your subject is in focus, the lensboard plane, subject plane and film plane will meet in one point to the far right. None will be parallel.
160754

[mdarnton]

. . . trying to get everything in focus by swinging the front element to more or less parallel to the subject,

No one has commented on this yet, so obvious to us, but maybe not to the OP, so I will. You do not swing the front to more or less parallel to the subject. The swing you will need is considerably less than this. The direction is *towards* parallel, but only a couple of degrees.

[Dan Fromm]

Hmm. I just read this discussion from the beginning, noticed that no one has suggested that the OP buy and read a book on, um, view camera technique. OP, the two books most commonly suggested to beginners here are Steve Simmons' Understanding the View Camera and Leslie Strobel's View Camera Technique. Both are offered at reasonable prices by sellers on, in alphabetical order, abebooks.com, alibris.com, amazon.com, ... People rarely mention it here but Berenice Abbott's chapter in the first edition of Graphic Graflex Photography is clear and helpful.

[loonatic45414]

There are lots of great resources on the web, also.

I assumed that the OP had already sought advice from published sources & needed a different point of view to clarify.

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[loonatic45414]

No one has commented on this yet, so obvious to us, but maybe not to the OP, so I will. You do not swing the front to more or less parallel to the subject. The swing you will need is considerably less than this. The direction is *towards* parallel, but only a couple of degrees.
This begs the question... does moving the rear standard react differently than moving the front? Would there be a parallel relationship there?

My problem with using a swing to completely solve this situation is that you will throw the foreground on the one side even more out of focus & risk making the photo look uneven to the viewer.

I would urge the OP to consider camera repositioning & use of depth of field to minimize the degree of swing. Unless it works toward the effect you're seeking to emphasize. Just something to consider.

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[Bob Salomon]

This begs the question... does moving the rear standard react differently than moving the front? Would there be a parallel relationship there?

My problem with using a swing to completely solve this situation is that you will throw the foreground on the one side even more out of focus & risk making the photo look uneven to the viewer.

I would urge the OP to consider camera repositioning & use of depth of field to minimize the degree of swing. Unless it works toward the effect you're seeking to emphasize. Just something to consider.

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No, both the front and the rear do the same thing. But when you do the movements on the back it changes the image shape. When you do them on the front it does not change the shape. By them I mean tilts and swings, not parallel shifts.

[LabRat]

Something else to add here is to learn to understand the physics of optical focusing...

If one focuses a (normally longer) lens on a camera, telescope etc, true focus will be a fairly thin flat plane with the lens wide open... Tilts & swings will tilt that flat plane, but that plane will still be quite thin... But by stopping down, that flat plane of focus starts turning into a wedge shape with the apex end closer to the camera, and the higher part of the wedge expanding further away from the lens, and that expands the smaller the f stop... So your mission is to have a working understanding of how to form these wedges, and deal with the curious phenomena that what is inside that wedge will be in better focus, and if anything sticks out of that area, the focus will fall off quickly...

I have suggested to beginners that that an axis tilt monorail is a good starter camera, because you can directly view the effects of movements on the GG without major refocusing every time, but later graduate to a technical or field camera once one thoroughly understands what the movements are doing, as the movements are possible with those cameras, but one has to basically set the camera movements from memory, and fine tune later, so a considerable amount of practice is required...

A few afternoons in a backyard or doing tabletop sets just practicing focusing will bring someone a long way towards understanding what works (and how) during focusing...

Steve K

[Thom Bennett]

Fantastic......I will try that today thanks

Cool. Let us know how it works out.

[Lachlan 717]

If the simple act of focusing a camera still eludes you, get a digital camera & save yourself the trouble of trying to learn photography.

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Focusing doesn't elude me: understanding your contradictory statements does.

Your snide, unearned erodite attitude does you no favours....

[loonatic45414]

Here I thought it was earned. Sorry old chap. Now how about a spot of tea & we can discuss this apparatus of curious origin over crumpets & maybe a serving of spotted dick? Please send the queen my best wishes.

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[Kevin Crisp]

You began the snide remarks, so own it.

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Actually, I didn't. I didn't begin it, I didn't engage in it. My posts have my real name on them and they are in chronological order. I question why insulting somebody asking for basic help is necessary.

[MikeH]

When others here talk about "it only takes a little: ..." In a photo like this, I'm guessing that I would swing the front maybe 1/8 of an inch (I think that's 3 mm?), no more, maybe less. If I was tilting on my old Toyo, it's about the smallest I can tilt without using both hands (swing is easy).

[loonatic45414]

It wasn't you. If someone truly wanted help, they'd ask for clarification.

This jerk insisted on picking my words apart arguing semantics & attacking my explanation.

Enough said... I should have just ignored him.

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[Jac@stafford.net]

Given the unavoidable poor web presentation it looks good enough.

Most of the critical statements in this thread have nothing to to with the image, instead they argue about view camera operations in the abstract.

So, post more of your explorations and be happy,

[Lachlan 717]

It wasn't you. If someone truly wanted help, they'd ask for clarification.

This jerk insisted on picking my words apart arguing semantics & attacking my explanation.

Enough said... I should have just ignored him.

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Blame the messenger and resort to name calling. Well argued. Very mature take on it.

Your last name wouldn't be Stone, would it?

[ndwgolf]

Swing (or Tilt): Once you determine you need one or the other, focus on the farthest point, then swing (or tilt) in the direction of the nearest point until the far and near points are equally out of focus. Lock the swing (or tilt), refocus and, if you did it right, both points will pop into focus at the same time. The trick is determining when both points are equally out of focus but once you do it a few times it gets surprisingly quick and easy. It's all on the ground glass.
Thank you Sir. I was trying to get the nearest part in focus (top part of the glass) then tilting the front down a little and it would all get messed up.......I will give what you wrote above a try when I get home
Thanks again

[xkaes]

Just curious, why did you start out by focusing on the closest point?

When you swing (or tilt) one end of the lensboard gets closer to the film and the other end gets further way. That's what you want. If you focus in the middle, and then swing, the center will stay in focus and the closer part of the image gets a little more extension, while the further part of the image gets a little less extension. But in this case you shouldn't need much swinging at all.

[ndwgolf]

Just curious, why did you start out by focusing on the closest point?

.
I would say that the reason I did that was because I really didn't have a clue what to focus on first. After reading what the other gentleman said I now know and understand a little better on what to focus on first (Bottom of the ground glass). So please correct me if I'm wrong.
1/. Make sure the camera is level
2/. Extend the bellows until the bulk of the picture in visible on the ground glass
3/. Make sure the bottom of the ground glass is sharp
4/. Then tilt until both the bottom and top of the ground glass are equally out of focus
5/. Now adjust the bellows until both top and bottom are in focus

is that right??

Neil

[ndwgolf]

I would say that the reason I did that was because I really didn't have a clue what to focus on first. After reading what the other gentleman said I now know and understand a little better on what to focus on first (Bottom of the ground glass). So please correct me if I'm wrong.
1/. Make sure the camera is level
2/. Extend the bellows until the bulk of the picture in visible on the ground glass
3/. Make sure the bottom of the ground glass is sharp
4/. Then tilt until both the bottom and top of the ground glass are equally out of focus
5/. Now adjust the bellows until both top and bottom are in focus

is that right??

Neil

After watching a youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JU-eHpk97Y it says there to
Focus on the near (top of the ground glass)
Tilt to the far (bottom of the ground glass)

So now I'm really confused??

[xkaes]

It depends on your camera and how it tilts.

On the front standard, most cameras swing on the lens axis (or close to it), but when tilting, it can be different. Some cameras tilt on the axis (or close to it), but some tilt on the base of the front standard (like mine), and still others can tilt on BOTH. Here is a shot with a camera that has both which may make the difference easier to grasp:

165282

If you will be tilting or swinging on the lens axis, focus in the middle of the scene. Then when you tilt or swing, it will add extension for closer objects, and reduce extension for farther objects. You may need to make some minor adjustments to the overall focusing because the nodal point of some lenses is not the same as the axis point (AKA front standard).

If you are tilting on the base, focus on the farthest point of the subject -- IF it is toward the top of the scene (and the bottom of the screen). When you tilt -- forward -- this will add extension for closer objects. It will probably add some extension all around, so additional refocusing is likely to be needed. So take it a bit at a time -- tilt a little, and refocus the REAR part of the subject, repeat....until the rear and near are in focus.

But if the far point of the subject is on the bottom of the scene -- it does happen sometimes -- proceed in reverse. Focus on the nearest point and then tilt the front standard backwards -- which will decrease the bellows length for the far away objects. Again, additional refocusing is likely to be needed. So take it a bit at a time -- tilt a little, and refocus the NEAR part of the subject, repeat....until the near and rear are in focus.

And whether you are tilting or swinging, on the base or on the axis, always watch the corners of the focusing screen for vignetting -- after you have stopped down to the taking aperture and added any filters & lens shades that you will be using.