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tgtaylor
5-Jan-2017, 15:11
My current tripod set-up consists of an Arca-Swiss Z1Sp ballhead with an Arca-Swiss 80mm long Universal Camera Plate https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/2122-REG/Arca_Swiss_802210_Universal_Camera_Plate_3_8.html Since the head is a ball-head it is necessary to manually balance the camera on the tripod using the back standard and rails to zero both standards. After a few times of mounting the camera the plate will work loose and it will be necessary to re-tighten the mounting screw with a hex wrench.

I'm looking for a better way and am considering a Toyo 810MII anti-twist plate https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=toyo+anti+twist+plate&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&typedValue=&Top+Nav-Search= I just spoke with Toyo service group and he said that gthe MII plate is different from the 4x5 plates in that it has 4 ridges instead of 2 that fir into the 4 slots on the camera which prevent the camera from twisting. Then the Arca plate connects to the camera through the center hole. Will this work and is there a better way?

Thanks,

Thomas

Ari
5-Jan-2017, 15:28
Thomas, when I first had the 810M I used only an FLM plate, either a QRP-70 plate or a QRP-130 plate.
I mention them because the surface of the plate is made of a cork and rubber hybrid that simply will not budge, no matter the weight of your set-up.

Later on, I got the Toyo Anti-Twist plate, but it seemed redundant, as I hadn't experienced any plate twisting.
I just wanted the camera to be all decked out, but having it certainly added to the feeling of security in my mind once installed.
I can't remember if the QR plate went between the anti-twist plate and the camera, or if it attached to the outside of the anti-twist plate; you'll have to experiment a little when you get it.

tgtaylor
6-Jan-2017, 14:00
ha,ha,ha...It doesn't sound like you have any experience with the Toyo anti twist plate Ari, but thanks anyway.

Thomas

Ari
6-Jan-2017, 19:32
ha,ha,ha...It doesn't sound like you have any experience with the Toyo anti twist plate Ari, but thanks anyway.

Thomas

Not so, Thomas, unless we're talking about two different plates, or I completely misunderstood your query.
Usually, when I don't know anything, I try to keep quiet, not talk louder.

Anyway, I found a photo from 2 years ago: my former 810M with Toyo anti-twist plate and QRP-70 plate installed.

https://c6.staticflickr.com/1/411/19390174925_120da708ec_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/vxrHsM)

Toyo 810M w/QRP-70 Plate (https://flic.kr/p/vxrHsM) by Toyo Page (https://www.flickr.com/photos/130796172@N05/), on Flickr

dodphotography
6-Jan-2017, 20:32
My flm plate rotates on my Lotus 810, its a little annoying. Would love a solution.

tgtaylor
6-Jan-2017, 20:41
I can't remember if the QR plate went between the anti-twist plate and the camera, or if it attached to the outside of the anti-twist plate; you'll have to experiment a little when you get it.

One picture is worth a thousand words: As you can see there is only one way that it will work. What wasn't clear from the online photos was whether or not there was a retaining mechanism on the back side of the plate to prevent torque on the Arca Swiss plate. Your photo shows that there is.

Thanks,

Thomas

tgtaylor
6-Jan-2017, 20:49
My flm plate rotates on my Lotus 810, its a little annoying. Would love a solution.

dod,

Scroll down to page 25 on the brochure: http://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/00273/00273.pdf The Rapid Mount Adapter 7531 may work on your camera if it lacks the slots on the Toyo for the Toyo Adapter.

Thomas

dodphotography
7-Jan-2017, 21:45
Wonder where I can order one


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asf
8-Jan-2017, 09:07
BH will accept orders

dodphotography
8-Jan-2017, 09:08
BH will accept orders

Will it work with a non Toyo camera?


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asf
8-Jan-2017, 09:09
You may have to cut into your bed

But if you can find a machinist it's simple to have one made, ordering can take a long time

cowanw
8-Jan-2017, 10:59
Not sure if this is appropriate but if you are using a quick release head then this works well to prevent twisting
http://www.jobu-design.com/Surefoot-NXM--Multi-Position-55_p_29.html

dodphotography
8-Jan-2017, 11:01
Not sure if this is appropriate but if you are using a quick release head then this works well to prevent twisting
http://www.jobu-design.com/Surefoot-NXM--Multi-Position-55_p_29.html

The problem is I have an FLM head that doesn't accept Arca plates so I'm stuck with their designs.


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Ari
9-Jan-2017, 22:23
The problem is I have an FLM head that doesn't accept Arca plates so I'm stuck with their designs.


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But your FLM head will accept other clamps, including the Arca-compatible SRB-60 clamp.
Only the lever clamp (QRB) is not fully Arca-compatible.

Also, it's very unusual to see any plate twisting, when I get back next week, I'll contact you about a replacement.

tgtaylor
3-Apr-2017, 17:41
UPDATE

I special ordered the Toyo QR plate from B&H on 7 January and when it arrived a week or so ago I sent it to Grimes to have holes drilled into the Arca plate for the Toyo indexes. Adam drilled 4 instead of 2 so that you can mount it in either direction.. The oversize steel Arca plate was think enough to allow for the drilling and sits flush with the Toyo plate allowing no wiggling or torquing unlike the set-up in Ari's photo above which, while preventing torque in one direction, say clockwise, will torque in the opposite direction.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3852/33784314306_e8b8c928c4_z.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3829/33784318356_38fca684b2.jpg

Finally, contrary to the B&H website the Toyo MII QR plate will not work on the AX, AII, CF, and no doubt the A.

Thomas

Michael Kadillak
9-Apr-2017, 16:02
I have been shooting the Toyo 810M for a very long time with a quick release plate of a Bogen 3039 head that uses a hexagonal quick release plate and never ever had a hint of camera movement. I open the back with the holder insertion bar, set the holder into the camera until you feel the resistance and then gently push the holder in less then 1/2" (without jamming or torquing the camera) that brings out an edge of the opposite side of the GG and with my left hand I pull the left hand of the GG back out creating an opening larger than the width of the holder and allowing the holder to go into place with even a hint of resistance. As a result there are no torque forces what so ever to move the camera. After the exposure I apply the lever bar and reverse this order pulling back on the GG and take the holder out with any resistance. I use this technique with all of me cameras as it works. Why spend money you simply do NOT need? I don't get it. Spend your money on film and printing paper. I am assuming you are making up the camera to the plate with a 3/8" screw and it is made up firmly.

After having see time after time photographers using only insertion force from one side to put a holder in place I guess I can see where this poor use tendency could be put in play. Don't allow poor technique to make things complicated. Make photographs.

tgtaylor
9-Apr-2017, 23:36
Michael - your solution wouldn't work for me. For starters the head weighs 4x more than my Arca and would increase the folded length. Your tripod, the 475B I assume, which I have and currently use with a parallelogram mount for 16x70 astronomy binoculars, is 2x the weight of the 1348 with a significantly greater closed length. So that set-up would add 10 pounds to the pack and the folded length of the tripod and head would make it awkward to carry on the pack and there still would be no physical mechanism to prevent torque from occurring. Sure you can be careful and all that - I was and even carried a hex wrench to tighten the screw every time I took the camera out. But merely mounting the camera on the head can introduce torque and zeroing the standards with a ball head requires that you make the adjustments with the camera and that can also introduce torque unless you have a fool-proof method to prevent that from happening. For me that fool-proof method is the Toyo [plate which the base of the camera prevents from torquing and the drilled Arca plate which is anchored to the Toyo plate. It can't move.

Besides I have had the tripod and head for more that 10 years and I bought the Arca plate to use with the MII when I got the camera.

Thomas

Michael Kadillak
10-Apr-2017, 07:47
Michael - your solution wouldn't work for me. For starters the head weighs 4x more than my Arca and would increase the folded length. Your tripod, the 475B I assume, which I have and currently use with a parallelogram mount for 16x70 astronomy binoculars, is 2x the weight of the 1348 with a significantly greater closed length. So that set-up would add 10 pounds to the pack and the folded length of the tripod and head would make it awkward to carry on the pack and there still would be no physical mechanism to prevent torque from occurring. Sure you can be careful and all that - I was and even carried a hex wrench to tighten the screw every time I took the camera out. But merely mounting the camera on the head can introduce torque and zeroing the standards with a ball head requires that you make the adjustments with the camera and that can also introduce torque unless you have a fool-proof method to prevent that from happening. For me that fool-proof method is the Toyo [plate which the base of the camera prevents from torquing and the drilled Arca plate which is anchored to the Toyo plate. It can't move.

Besides I have had the tripod and head for more that 10 years and I bought the Arca plate to use with the MII when I got the camera.

Thomas

Sounds like you have already gone down this route Thomas and that is great it this set up works for you.

Couple of points of clarification as it relates to potential future readers of this thread.

From a technical perspective the issues of a cameras willingness to torque when forces are applied lateral to the back of the camera is a function of the contact surface area of the base plate and the coefficient of friction between these contact points. I have an Arca B1 head and switched out the make up screw with the worthless hex wrench thread to a large hex bolt that I can put a ratchet with a 6" arm on to ensure these components are sufficiently made up. Hex wrenches like the one I am seeing in the picture above are not designed to make up components to sufficient make up torques because you can easily strip the inner faces. I still content one can avoid the make up plate by using an anti slip surface material and using a different make up bolt but that is water under the bridge here. Secondly, the weight of the head or the tripod are not of any consequence in the concern about torquing. They just add weight. While I love the 810M I find it very interesting that you are choosing to put as heavy camera as this one into an operating condition that to me is mis-matched. There is a current thread on a Calumet C1 which is in the same weight class as the the Toyo 810M which is heading in a completely different direction relative to camera operating conditions and stability. Normally light cameras go on light ball heads in light packs because as you stated above - weight is an operating limitation. I have read threads on this forum where folks have ditched the 810M because of its weight. Nothing more than a compare and contrast for the books.

tgtaylor
10-Apr-2017, 11:44
Yep, I purchased the 1348 and z1-sp to replace a Carbon 441 Manfrotto tripod w/Gitzo 1275M head that I was using for the Pentax 67II. I opened and closed that tripod so many time that a small part broke off allowing that leg to open without a stop to keep it aligned with the other legs. It proved to be the perfect replacement - not only does it work for the 67 but also works for LF field cameras up to the MII and I didn't have to add anything beyond a larger QR plate for the MII and finally the Toyo anti twist plate. I think this is the best set-up for that camera. As you can see in the photos, the Toyo plate covers the entire base of the camera where the tripod attaches and the 80mm Arca plate almost covers the Toyo plate. Once installed on the camera the set-up can't move or wiggle in the slightest because the camera base prevents that from occurring. This is a permanent fix and you can mount it on the tripod while eyeballing the dovetail as it slides into its groves instead of guess where the connection is with the Manfrotto set-up - I know because I used the 810G with the 475B w/quick release head.

Finally I didn't have to pay the current price for the Toyo plate. When I went online in January to order it B&H had two adds for the same plate, one with the current $160 + price and the other with a $119.95 price. They appeared to be the same part with the same part number so I ordered the lower priced one. After B&H ordered it the $119 one disappeared from their website. I imagine that there was a price increase a while back and instead of just editing the listing they placed a whole new add without deleting the older listing. But the difference saved was paid to SK Grimes who did a great job and shipped it back in under a week.

The Toyo is light when you pick it up but gets heavy in the pack with all the other stuff in there.

Thomas

tgtaylor
23-May-2017, 22:00
UPDATE

I've been out with the camera on several shoots since the QR plate was installed and have experienced no problems. Then on the last outing last week the camera started nodding up and down on the tripod. It turned out that the hex screw worked itself loose and while the QR plate prevented the camera from torqueing laterally to the side it would bounce up and down. I didn't find the hex wrench for tightening the screw until I got back home but could tighten it by hand in the meantime which solved the immediate problem. When I got home I replaced the hex screw with a slot-head screw that has 1 turn more bite and placed the hex screw w/driver and a real silver dime in a plastic bag into the pack for the 8x10. Will the extra bite will prevent the screw from working itself loose?

Thomas

Sal Santamaura
24-May-2017, 07:42
...Will the extra bite will prevent the screw from working itself loose?...I don't know, but some Loctite Blue 242 might. :D

tgtaylor
24-May-2017, 21:14
Thanks Sal. If it doesn't, I may try that.

Thomas

BIT Saddle
29-May-2017, 04:57
This may not be of any help, but I use these and love them- it's the same plate that's used on several Manfrotto heads, including the 410 geared head. It's available with the plate and base mount which you can attach to any tripod head: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KZCEYK/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I use this plate on my Chamonix 4x5 and Mamiya RZ67 Pro, with zero twisting whatsoever.

Cor
29-May-2017, 06:11
That's the one I use on my Toyo 810MI (in combination with a FOBO Asima (sp?) tripod..no problems whatsoever..


This may not be of any help, but I use these and love them- it's the same plate that's used on several Manfrotto heads, including the 410 geared head. It's available with the plate and base mount which you can attach to any tripod head: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KZCEYK/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I use this plate on my Chamonix 4x5 and Mamiya RZ67 Pro, with zero twisting whatsoever.