Vuescan vs. Silverfast SE/Ai

[Brian Ellis]

I recently acquired an Epson 4990 which is bundled with Silverfast SE. I've been using Vuescan with my former scanner for some years and I like it o.k. for the mostly black and white photography I do. But all other things being equal I'm inclined to switch to Silverfast (and maybe upgrade to Ai) because I like the ability to see the effect of adjustments on the image as you're making them, which you can't do with Vuescan. However, I don't know anything about the relative merits of the two from a scan quality or any other standpoint.

If anyone here has used both Silverfast and Vuescan I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts about their relative merits. Also any thoughts about the wisdom of upgrading Silverfast SE to Ai. I don't mind spending the money but not if all I get is a program with a bunch of extra options and features that are only useful to pros or other people who scan in large volumes. I've read what Vuescan says about the advantages of Ai but I don't understand half of it and don't know how relevant the other half is to someone like me who scans only large format in a very small volume. Thanks.

[Scott Davis]

Brian-

I have used both Silverfast SE and Vuescan. In my personal opinion, I greatly prefer SE (I'm sure I would like Ai even better, but I've not been bothered to plunk down the cash for it). To me, the ability to see the effect of the tweaks I make before I finalize the scan is worth its weight in gold, because of the time savings it provides. Also, I think that it scans cleaner and sharper. Maybe I just didn't know how to tweak Vuescan to get a better scan from it, but in my opinion, good software shouldn't require you to do a LOT of work to make simple (if major) improvements in my results. To get the nth degree out of either, it takes work, but from my perspective, I get a lot closer to the nth degree with a shorter learning curve using SE.

[Bob Salomon]

I use AI 6 and Vue Scan and much prefer Silverfast. Use it with Epson 3200, 2850 and Braun 3600 and 4000.

[John Sarsgard]

I use Silverfast SE on an (now old!) Epson 3200. I get pretty good results. But I would like to learn more about how to "tweak" a scan. Does anybody know of a good book that one can relate to Silverfast SE? I always hear that the skill of the operator makes a great deal of difference in getting a good scan, and I'd like to learn more. Thanks.

[Kirk Gittings]

I have tried both and greatly prefer the Silverfast AI, but upgrade it to tht "studio" version as it allows for multisampling for noise reduction. rather than multipass (which softens the image).

[Saulius]

Kirk, have you (or anyone else for that matter) then used the Silver Fast new multi sampling? I have an Epson 4870 with Silver fast and have been thinking about upgrading for the multi sampling but was wondering how effective it actually is. I just received an advertisement from Silver Fast regarding multisampling. Here is some of what they say.

Extend the Dynamic Range of your Scanner

Get rid of Noise! SilverFast Multi-Sampling with Auto-Alignment is
here!

The "Multi-Sampling" technology is now available for those scanners
which do not have this feature built into the hardware.

Anyone have any first hand experience using it with an epson scanner?
Thanks.

Here is a link to their web page (http://www.silverfast.com/show/silverfast-multisampling/en.html)

[Brian Ellis]

John - I'm not a scanning expert but most of what I know I learned from Wayne Fulton's book "A Few Scanning Tips." The title is misleading, it's a book not just some tips and it's much more than "a few," it's a couple hundred pages long. The references to specific equipment, specs, etc. is very dated (at least my copy is, maybe he's updated it since I bought mine about four years ago) but the basic information about how to scan is still right on point. He has a web site from which the book can be purchased, I don't have the URL handy but Google on his name and I'm sure it will pop up.

[Kirk Gittings]

I have not upgraded because there is some issue with my seial number that needs straightening out but i have seen some examples from a friend that show supreior results from the MS as opposed to the MP feature.

[paulr]

In my experience multiple passes (I trust this is what multiscanning means?) does not work well on a 4870. I wouldn't even consider it unless you're going to wet mount the film on glass, because it's imperative to stop the film from moving, which it's inclined to do from the heat of the lamp. Even so, the transport mechanism of scanners like the 4870 is just not precise enough to line up the ccd in the same place for multiple passes. I find that scans done this way are significantly less sharp than ones done with a single pass.

A way to reduce noise (and possibly to increase dynamic range by a tiny ammount) is just to oversample. Scan at the full sampling frequency of the scanner (4800 ppi) and have the scanning software downsample. Vuescan will do this; I'd be surprised if silverfast didn't too. If you scan at 2400ppi, the scanner throws out every other scan line and every other pixel. If you downsample to 2400 ppi, the scanner averages every 4 pixel block into one pixel. This has the effect of greatly reducing noise, since noise isn't likely to cover whole 4 pixel blocks.

[Dean Tomasula]

I prefer VueScan with my Epson 2450 and Nikon Coolscan LS-50. It's very intuitive and easy to use. You can do multi-pass scanning with VueScan as well.

I've used Silverfast AI in the past and found that it did not work well with black and white negatives. In fact I only ever used it for color slides because it didn't handle anything else well (in my opinion). I don't do any post=processing in Silverfast or VueScan, I use Photoshop CS for that, so I'm not interested in that functionality. I just want good, clean scans.

VueScan isn't perfect by any means. It has its quirks. It doesn't have enough negative film profiles built in, particularly for Fuji and Epson film. Even for Kodak, there isn't a profile for T-Max film! Not to mention that it's updated so often I have to download a new version once-a-week.

[Ed Richards]

I use Vuescan but have not tried Silverfast - I got my 9950 before the new bundle. As for Vuescan profiles, there are 8 for Tmax, corresponding to different developer and processing parameters. You need to make sure you have the advanced settings enabled in the color tab to see them. My best scans come from scanning at the max resolution and writing out the unprocessed raw file from the CCD. You then downsample, convert and gama correct it in your editor.

[Kirk Gittings]

"In my experience multiple passes (I trust this is what multiscanning means?)"

Multi-pass is not the same thing as multi-sampling. The intention is the same however, but In my experience multiple passes leads to lack of sharpness. Multi-sampling is a different process more like the downsampling strategy you mentioned but more sophisticated. It appears to work very well with the AI "studio" upgrade.

[Will Strain]

I've used both in various versions and on various scanners. In general, I have preferred vuescan, but with my Epson 3200, I've found that Silverfast is much sharper. I can't for the life of me figure out why, but there is no comparison.

On earlier Epson scanners, and my old Umax, this was not the case...took me completely by surprise. I may have to upgrade to AI.

[mark blackman]

Brian,
I'm just about to update from an Epson 2450 to the 4990. for the former I gave up using the Epson Twain stuff asap and switched to Vuescan. Once Vuescan came out with a RAW mode of output I started using that and doing all tweeks in PS as I never got the built in corrections to work as I wanted (not helped by a lack of profiles for non-kodak film).

I shall try out the bundled Silverfast s/w with the 4990 and compare with Vuescan and let you know how it goes. I intend to use the scanner for 5x4 and 10x8 film, both b&W and colour transparency (Fuji Provia)

[John Hennessy]

I have to agree with Kirk that the new multiscan capability of Siverfast AI is a great improvement over the multipass method. I just downloaded it and tried it on a 4x5 Astia image of mine with dewy grass and gossamers in the foreground. With the old multipass, I had to try several times before the blades of grass and gossamers were evidently as sharp as the film. One failed attempt even produced two blades for every one in the film! But multiscaning, with only one try, produced a file much much better than the best multipass.

Ironically, it was so much better that I regret having to pay extra for it---it should have been there all along. Maybe AI "Studio" (which is what one needs to upgrade to in order to get the multiscan capability) does other things I have not noticed yet. On the other hand, if multiscan software is a programming breakthrough, then Lasersoft deserves whatever the market will bear. Why upgrading the SE version costs so little is a mystery but no serious photographer should be without the AI version anyway just for the scanner profiling aspect if nothing else.

I volunteered for the scan-around testing at http://largeformatphotography.info/scan-comparison/ (and in View Camera) and it will be interesting to see how the Epsons stack up with Silverfast. I believe the Epson 3200 used in tests was used with its own software--which is useless.

[Nature Photo]

Is there a way to incorporate single pass multisampling into Vuescan?

[Kirk Gittings]

The new multisampling feature in SF Studio appears in my testing to be a real breakthrough. Has anyone or does anyone have the time to do a heads up comparison to noise reduction capabilities of the new SF Studio and Viewscan? It would be hard to surpass the noise reduction of SF Studio.

My tests also reveal that with SF Studio you get the most noise reduction in RGB files (noise is virtually eliminated completely) even if you are looking for a grayscale image as the final product. So I am scanning 4x5 b&w negs as 48bit RGB files with 16 sampling passes and then converting them to 16 bit grayscale. The exact opposite was true with SFAI 6. You would get much less noise with grayscale scans with SFAI 6.

[Rob_5209]

Does the Silverfast "multi-sampling" feature make one pass or multiple passes? To qualify as multi-sampling, the scan head must only make one pass, while sampling each scan line multiple times before advancing the scan head to the next line. This method results in no registration errors.

If the scan head makes x number of seperate passes, it's multi-scanning, or multi-pass scanning. As far as I know "multi-sampling" (former) has to be enabled in the scanner's hardware to work and I wasn't aware that the Epson's supported this.

[QT Luong]

Rob, from the Lasersoft explanation (http://www.silverfast.com/show/silverfast-multisampling/en.html), what they call multi-sampling is multi-scanning + automated alignment/registration.

[Ed Richards]

I have been playing with the Silverfast demo for a few days to see if the multi-scanning really works. I have used multi-scanning on Vuescan with a Canon 9950 and the registration is not quite good enough. With the new Silverfast, the registration is usually perfect, even at 16 scans. It is very impressive. One possible bug is that when you start Silverfast it comes up with the last preview. If you are scanning the same negative in more than one session, it is easy to just start the second scan without a new preview. I think if you do the registration does not always work - I have noticed that every few multi-scans I get one with doubled images and I think this is why, but I have not kept notes so I am not sure yet.

The cheapest way in is Silverfast SE, then scan to the HDR choice and do the corrections in your editor. Otherwise I think you need to go to AI to get 16/48 bit and corrections in Silverfast.

[Kirk Gittings]

"With the new Silverfast, the registration is usually perfect, even at 16 scans." Though I only find 16X necessary on images with large shadow areas.

My experience too, though ecery once in awhile I get an out of register one maybe one in 15. It maybe do to humidity changes from heat during the scan or something because the next scan of the same negative will be fine.

[Ed Richards]

I have testing leaving the negative in the scanner for while before scanning, but then the heat from the bulb would not be on. Perhaps the best bet would be to do two in a row, with the first as preheat for the second.

[Karl-Heinz Zahorsky]

The combination of SilverFast SE Plus and SF HDR ist a powerful and economic solution

SilverFast SE Plus has our patented Multi-Sampling function and also supports scanning into raw 48 bit HDR data. So you can create a noise free full dynamic range scan. Then you open the data in SilverFast HDR and quickly optimize your images and run the final processing with the SF HDR JobManager.

More detailson SF SE Plus can be found here: http://www.silverfast.com/show/silverfast-seplus/en.html

and on SF HDR here: http://www.silverfast.com/show/silverfast-hdr/en.html

Ian Lyons tutorials on working with SF HDR: http://www.computer-darkroom.com/hdr_tutorial/hdr_1.htm

[Ed Richards]

> Is there a way to incorporate single pass multisampling into Vuescan?

The current version has this, if your scanner will support it. It will do multi-sampling in a single pass on my 9950. The downside is that multi-sampling is so slow at 4800 that the heat will pop the negative. Works much better at 2400 because there is so much less data to move, but then you can just scan at 4800 and down sample for the same effect. (Scanning at 4800 is not really 4800, but it is a very efficient multi-sample for 2400.)

> A way to reduce noise (and possibly to increase dynamic range by a tiny ammount) is just to oversample. Scan at the full sampling frequency of the scanner (4800 ppi) and have the scanning software downsample. Vuescan will do this; I'd be surprised if silverfast didn't too.

Silverfast will fool you - if you select 4800 and select downsampling, it just scans at a lower resolution, at least on the 9950.