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Patrick13
3-Nov-2016, 17:46
Since I'm going to restore an 8x10 from the early 1900's decades I figure that I should add an appropriate lens to it.

Any recommendations on something representative for portraits and landscape, which would be moderately wide angle (250mm or so?) and won't break the bank?

The camera has a 4.5" square lens board and only very basic movements.

Negatives are going to be contact printed to regular photo paper and maybe carbon if I get to feeling saucy next year.

TIA

Dan Fromm
3-Nov-2016, 17:57
Dagor of any vintage, if you can find a 250. Boyer Beryl, likewise.

Jim Jones
3-Nov-2016, 18:00
The Rapid Rectilinear was becoming obsolete then, but was a decent lens in its day.

jp
3-Nov-2016, 18:00
What's the budget? I don't know much about vintage wide angles, but normal and portrait I have some practice with.

Most inexpensive and flexible would be a tessar of some sort since they've been in production since 1902ish. It would not have to be original vintage to be functionally similar. I think any pre-WWII tessar is going to look about the same.

A triplet of similar length could range from inexpensive to something exotic and be good for portraits. Soft focus like a verito will also be period correct and mid-priced. Anything with a 1915-ish wollensak studio shutter is quite likely to have a minimally functioning or not functioning shutter as well. http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/ Jim G has some good photos from a variety of vintage lenses of that era.

Patrick13
3-Nov-2016, 19:41
Fortunately there's a functional Packard shutter involved, minus the rubber bits of course.
Which makes some things simpler I suppose.

Kevin Crisp
3-Nov-2016, 19:53
Lots of double protars fall in the 230 - 250 mm range.

Jim Andrada
3-Nov-2016, 20:36
I have a RR with a set of Waterhouse stops. Surprisingly nice lens for landscapes. I have a small iris clamp mounted on a Technika board so I can use the RR on 4 x 5.

Mark Sawyer
3-Nov-2016, 23:00
Go to: http://www.cameraeccentric.com/info.html and have fun browsing catalogues from around then. May I suggest: http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/wollensak_1.html

Two23
4-Nov-2016, 17:24
Another vote for a 240mm Dagor. I have one I use on 5x7 and love it. It dates to about 1912. My second choice would be a Velostigmat. They have a gorgeous rendering! I have one of those from early 1920s, 12 inch in Betax 5 shutter. Impressive looking lens!


Kent in SD

Luis-F-S
4-Nov-2016, 17:36
Another vote for a 240mm Dagor. I have one I use on 5x7 and love it.
Kent in SD

++1! Easily covers 8x10.

Randy
7-Nov-2016, 19:19
The Velostigmat of course. I have a B&L 1C 11X14 Tessar that has 1903 stamped on the barrel but I am guessing mine was made in the teens or 20's - they also make an 8X10 version which is probably close to 300mm.

Patrick13
17-Nov-2016, 12:06
Speaking of which, I picked up a beat up Series III Wide Angle Velostigmat F:9.5 (uncoated).
Since this is a project for fun and contact printing sometimes and not for a high artistic purpose, a less than perfect lens in a wild focal length was welcome.

Still keeping my eyes open for something from all these suggestions more suited to portraits, though. The world totally needs more high contrast old men with crinkly faces printed. And gnarly trees :cool:

IanG
17-Nov-2016, 12:41
I'd go for a 240mm Dagor in a shutter. I use a 300mm Dagor with my 10x8 Agfa Ansco it's a very nice sharp lens, coated after WWII for the original owner. If I found a 240mm/9½" at the right price I'd buy it but they aren't common here in Europe. I have a 1912/3 120mm (Berlin) Dagor for my 7x5 Senecas, an nice contrasty lens compared to Tessars and type..

Ian

Toyon
17-Nov-2016, 12:46
It depends on the look you are seeking. Rapid Rectilinears and even Petzvals (Wollensak made improved ones), render and excellnt look to out-of-focus areas. But Tessars can be nice in that regard too. Dagors are wonderful sharp lenses, but the bokeh is not that great IMO. You might buy a copy of "Professional Portrait Lightings" by Charles Abel. Though written in the late 1940's, the cameras and lenses used by the many professionals he interviewed are essentially from the period you are interested in, when the photographers were trained. Only the lighting was contemporary to when the book was written. Aside from the lighting, it really is a window in early 20th century photography.

Patrick13
17-Nov-2016, 14:34
Not easy finding a Dagor in the States either, that isn't just a barrel or completely beat up. Keeping my eyes open, it'll be at least a month or two before the camera project is ready.

IanG
17-Nov-2016, 17:00
Not easy finding a Dagor in the States either, that isn't just a barrel or completely beat up. Keeping my eyes open, it'll be at least a month or two before the camera project is ready.

Dagors were made for a few decades longer by Goerz AM Opt in the US after CP Goerz, Berlin, became part of Zeiss Ikon. There's been plenty of excellent Dagors available on Ebay, this forum, APUG etc over the years and they still turn up. You need to be careful not to pay "Cult" prices but that goes for Protars as well.

Realism is the key, I paid £30 ($37 approx) for a mint 1912/3 120mm Dagor in a Compound shutter (still accurate) a few months ago, it may have never been mounted on a lens board/camera.

I've seen a lot of 240mm Dagors sell quite cheaply, it's the 12"" and longer that are most desirable and "Cult" because a 12" (300mm) will cover 12x10 or even 14x11 stopped right down, and coverage increases with FL I don't remember 240mm Dagors being expensive, I've more lenses than I need so at the moment would only buy an absolute bargain, knowing I could sell for more than I paid for it. If I wanted one I'd get one within a few weeks probably less than a month - wanted adverts work well :D

Ian

Dan Fromm
17-Nov-2016, 18:11
Ian, Goerz American offered Dagors at least into the 1960s.

IanG
18-Nov-2016, 03:17
Ian, Goerz American offered Dagors at least into the 1960s.

Dagors were listed in the 1971 CP Goerz Am Opt Catalogue, the year they were bought by Kollmorgen. So were made in the US considerable longer than in Berlin. However a post WWII Dagor wouldn't be a period lens.

Looking at prices on Ebay most are way to highe, except maybe for very late versions, I notice a 120mm Daor for 9x what I paid for mine and in not so good condition, in addition it's in the wrong size dial set Compur shutter with adapters and there's a very high risk the spacing isn't right.

I'd be looking at other period (presumably US made) lenses assuming it's an American made camera, keeping an eye on coverage. remembering that a 12"/300mm Tessar or type lens is needed for 10x8, so B&L Tessar, Ilex Paragon, Wollensak Velostigmat. Shorter with similar (and more stopped right down ) is the Dagor or Protar and higher prcies, or an early WA lens.

Ian

Dan Fromm
18-Nov-2016, 06:02
Who cares when the lenses were made? Post-WW II Dagors and Beryls (made until Boyer closed in 1982) are period designs.

Oh, and by the way, the OP asked for moderate wide angle lenses for 8x10. Normal lenses don't meet the requirement.

goamules
18-Nov-2016, 09:45
Since I'm going to restore an 8x10 from the early 1900's decades I figure that I should add an appropriate lens to it...

TIA
It sounded like he wanted "period" to go with his camera. I'd get a convertible Protar VIIa. Then you have a few options for focal lengths.

IanG
18-Nov-2016, 10:42
It sounded like he wanted "period" to go with his camera. I'd get a convertible Protar VIIa. Then you have a few options for focal lengths.

Many of us like to have a lens (or lenses) contemporary to the camera in question. That doesn't preclude also having modern lenses as well.

I see it from a restoration perspective where I try to match a lens to suit a camera of the same period, and also a lens that might have been used with the camera, so not a lens rarely seen in the country.

Dan, other were suggesting Tessar type lenses not what the OP was asking for.

Ian

Dan Fromm
18-Nov-2016, 10:45
Interesting point, Garrett. I wonder which he values more, appearance or performance?

Patrick13
18-Nov-2016, 11:42
I was going to write a long winded missive on the false dichotomy between appearance or performance, but I think that it's obviously meant as a talking point and not a philosophical challenge! That and the morning coffee is settling in and I'm much happier after that first cup :rolleyes:

Part of the charm of fixing a century old camera is in outfitting it appropriately, otherwise there are many modern options available and without the hassles of needing a refit. This also leads to teaching moments when someone sees the kit out, talk about a little history, how materials science and optics worked a century ago. Plus there's the craft of maintaining and getting the best out of old gear.

I had thought that the thread title of "Period lens suggestions" would be enough to get my intent across :D

That being said, these were built from 1910-1917 more or less, and shipped with economy lenses so any change will be already not to spec and because they were probably used long after the end of production "period" could encompass another decade into the 1930's without getting too far off point.

That also being said, great thread and all the suggestions are welcome and might lead to a second lens for other purposes than charm!

Patrick13
21-Nov-2016, 11:04
I found a very old Goerz 9-1/2" double-anastigmat in a broken shutter at a good price. Glass looks in great shape, the shutter I can fix or replace.
Now to get the camera itself restored...

j.e.simmons
21-Nov-2016, 12:41
I use a Conley RR lens, probably made by B&L. Research shows these were made until 1917. These turn up in various focal lengths on this forum and on eBay. Mine is a triple convertible, and I liked it so much I paid Grimes a fortune to mount it in a modern shutter.

Pere Casals
21-Nov-2016, 13:08
Any recommendations on something representative for portraits and landscape, which would be moderately wide angle (250mm or so?) and won't break the bank?



I've a favourite a lens that's IMHO unique in that way:

Voigtländer Universal Heliar f/4.5, 30cm or 36cm, this is a 1926 version of a 1902 lens.

"Voigtländer is an optical company founded by Johann Christoph Voigtländer (de) in Vienna in 1756 and is thus the oldest name in cameras. It produced the Petzval photographic lens (the fastest lens at that time: f/3.7) in 1840, and the world's first all-metal daguerrotype camera (Ganzmetallkamera) in 1841, also bringing out plate cameras shortly afterwards. "


The "Universal" 1926 version is quite expensive, the Heliar (not "Universal" of 1902) is much cheaper, also an incredible glass.


The "Universal" makes landscapes and dream protraits. I has a ring to set diffusion. Set it to zero for a sharp picture. Then you can add onirics.

Diffusion is achieved when internal element moves out of optimal place so controlled spherical aberration is added.

It happens that "diffusion" is directed to the center of image, thus softening skin without adding an aura.

An incredible glass !!!


The Heliar is very sharp, and with somewhat low micro-contrast, fantastic bokeh.


http://www.antiquecameras.net/heliarlenses.html




157736


https://www.flickr.com/photos/55873497@N04/albums/72157643501915954

"part of the Heliar's lore is related to Japanese Emperor Hirohito, who is claimed to have so admired the Heliar lens, that he would only allow his picture to be taken with a Heliar"

goamules
21-Nov-2016, 15:08
On the question posed earlier, "performance" is what he's looking for. As in, a lens that performs exactly like the one that came on the camera in 1915. You cannot get 1915 performance in a 1960s lens. It's why people drive old sports cars, they want something that performs like long ago, not some 300 horsepower Mazda with an intercooler and turbocharger. Just because certain specifications like "sharpness" or "drag co-efficient" improve as materials and process do, doesn't mean they're "better" for everyone. If we all chased specs, we'd all be shooting iPhone cameras. Good luck to the shooter!