New (to me) Horseman 4x5 camera

[cp_photo]

Hello,

My first post here and from the outset a big thanks to everyone here as I have been learning a lot from this web site and forum. Although I have done plenty of 35mm photography in earlier times, this is my first foray into 4x5/large format. Please excuse my ignorance.

I recently acquired a Horseman monorail camera with a Calumet 90mm/f8 lens. This is my first large format camera and I am impressed with the nice geared movements and sturdy feel of it.

Unfortunately the lens' Seiko shutter seems to stick on most speeds and the "V" timer setting doesn't work at all. It seems like the lens was not used for many years and needs maintenance. Is there any local SF Bay Area person or shop that can perform a CLA on it and/or tell me if it is beyond redemption? In your experience how much does a shutter CLA generally cost? Is there a list of top camera repair people who specialize in LF? Maybe I should just buy a lens in better condition.

When I open the preview lever of the lens and open the aperture to the widest setting of f8 I can see images on the ground glass but cannot achieve infinity focus nor can I focus on closer objects. I'm really not sure what I am missing here - I have the standards in their closest position and have tried everything else I can think of. Any tips?

Thanks again, Chris

[Michael Graves]

Carol Flutot, out there in California somewhere, has been my go-to for shutter repair for several years now. Look her up on line as Flutot Camera repair. BTW: I use a Horseman as well and recently acquired an 8x10 Horseman from a fellow LF-er. They are marvelous cameras.

[David Lindquist]

In years past I used :
International Camera Technicians (ICT)
2455 Old Middlefield Way
Mountain View
650 961 5825

They used to have a website but google didn't turn up one for me. Recent (favorable) reviews on yelp indicate that Manfred Mueller is still in business there. He worked on Compur shutters for me. I expect he would work on Seiko shutters but you might want to call first and check.

Currently I mostly use Henry Paine in Stockton. He charges about $140 to CLA a No. 1 rimset Compur.

Can't account for your focussing problem. If we were in the same room together with the camera we could probably work it out. I expect that's a 90 mm "Wide Field Caltar", is that right? These had a good reputation.

David

[David Lindquist]

Minor revision. I see on Henry's website: http://www.henrypaine.com that he now charges $150.
David

[DG 3313]

Willie @ Adolph Gasser Inc. (in San Francisco 2nd street and Howard) he is there every Saturday between 10 and 2.

[Michael Graves]

I'm guessing that a recessed lens board will solve the focusing dilemma. With the longer bellows, it doesn't compress enough for the lens to focus to infinity. As far as not focusing closer, that is more confusing. Has the lens ever been dropped or suffered any other damage that would knock an element out of alignment?

[cp_photo]

Thank you all for the informative responses. Unfortunately I know nothing about the history of the lens but it shows wear on the outer barrel and the shutter sticks on various speeds (strangely at 1/60 it sticks every only second time the shutter is released). The glass itself looks pretty clean. My intuition tells me that the lens was perhaps used with a different camera and was bundled with the deal? Coming from having used 35mm film cameras the used, vintage large format equipment seems reasonably priced.

Last night I found a reasonably priced Nikkor W 210mm/5.6 mounted in a Sinar board on the auction site. It will arrive next week and will give me an opportunity to try with a lens with medium-isn bellows extension. If I understand correctly the bellows extension needs to be equivalent to the distance from the film plane to achieve infinity focus?

Perhaps as suggested the 90mm lens cannot achieve infinity focus with standards drawn as close as possible on the Horseman?

I noticed that the Horseman standards can be rotated 180 degrees and it looks like the bellows and ground glass parts can be attached to either end of either standard depending on their orientation. The camera seems very solidly made and I can't see anything wrong with it.

Is there a dedicated "front" and "back" standard, or does it not really matter as long as one is not concerned with the placement of the knobs/levers, etc? I continue to marvel at its solid construction and I don't find it too be too heavy to move around reasonable distances, but it will mainly live at home.

I see many different models of Horseman cameras with the same type of L shaped standards but I have not identified which model I have because there is no indication anywhere. I think it is a 450?

Thank you for all the suggestions and information, Chris



I'm guessing that a recessed lens board will solve the focusing dilemma. With the longer bellows, it doesn't compress enough for the lens to focus to infinity. As far as not focusing closer, that is more confusing. Has the lens ever been dropped or suffered any other damage that would knock an element out of alignment?

[cp_photo]

I meant to ask whether it is correct that the bellows extension needs to be the same as the FOCAL LENGTH of the lens to achieve infinity focus. Sorry about that.

[Jim Jones]

With most LF lenses, the focal length of the lens is roughly equal to the distance from the center of the lens to the ground glass when the image is focused at infinity. With telephoto design lenses, the focal length is further from the ground glass than the distance to the center of the lens.

[Jim Michael]

The inability to focus on close objects is a concern. But as far as infinity focus goes you can reverse the standards and a WA bellows should help too. I have a pretty short Fuji I think is 75mm and have been able to focus with my Horseman L series. Very tight though so not very useful.

[Tin Can]

You have an L, I only acknowledge 2 models, L and LX, there is variation with LX, but L is L, which you have discovered is very adjustable. Your first lens was a bundle. Come back to it later. The Nikon is interesting. I have one.

I think Horseman are better than Sinar as they are more rigid. Horseman can use Sinar bellows and lens-boards.

When you get the Nikon we can discuss Horsemen GG and Fresnel. Or not.

Have fun!

[Ian Gordon Bilson]

Based on my experience with a Horseman LB, you will need a recessed lens board, and bag bellows to allow full movements and focus with a 90mm or shorter focal length. As noted below, the compatability with Sinar will work in your favour if you search online for the bits you need. Randy - the LB variant has gearing only at the focus stage,but I have never found this to be a problem in use. The camera is built like the proverbial brick outhouse...The LB has the usual movements,with the addition of a Yaw-Free base-tilt mechanism,in addition to the standard , on axis movements.
You have an L, I only acknowledge 2 models, L and LX, there is variation with LX, but L is L, which you have discovered is very adjustable. Your first lens was a bundle. Come back to it later. The Nikon is interesting. I have one.

I think Horseman are better than Sinar as they are more rigid. Horseman can use Sinar bellows and lens-boards.

When you get the Nikon we can discuss Horsemen GG and Fresnel. Or not.

Have fun!

[cp_photo]

A quick update: I received the Nikkor 210mm/5.6 and I am very impressed. Condition is great and the shutter works perfectly. I am happy. It is huge, I love the heft of it.

I'll get a chance to try it out over the next few days but...

I have tripod issues: my Gitzo 275 is probably too lightweight for a heavy Horseman, and I lost the fixing bolt. A new one is on order but meanwhile I am considering purchasing something new or used that can handle heavy cameras. I am looking at used Linhof, Berlebach, Tiltall and as far as new is concerned I am looking at a setup under $250 tops.

Thanks again for the useful suggestions and ideas.

[Leigh]

If I understand correctly the bellows extension needs to be equivalent to the distance from the film plane to achieve infinity focus?
Hi Chris,

That approximation is close for lenses of moderate focal length, i.e. not for wide-angle or telephoto lenses.

To be more precise, the lens focal length = the distance from the film to the rear node of the lens when focused at infinity.

The rear node can be anywhere relative to the physical lens, even outside of it to the front or the rear.
It depends on the lens design.

With lenses of moderate focal length, the rear node is usually at or very close to the diaphragm.
This is true of your Nikkor W 210/5.6.

Wide-angle (short FL) lenses often have the rear node behind the rear lens element.
Telephoto (long FL) lenses have the rear node in front of the front lens element, sometimes by a large distance.

- Leigh

[cp_photo]

Success! I was able to easily mount the Nikon lens and achieve crisp focus on the ground glass.

[cp_photo]

I'm curious if anyone more knowledgeable than me can tell me which model of Horseman I have. Here's a picture.

[cp_photo]

trying to attach the image once again.

[SpeedGraphic]

To the sticky shutter on the other lens: Leaf shutters aren't rocket science to clean. I good soak of the actual shutter mechanism in lighter fluid has been the go-to field repair for decades. I've saved sluggish shutters in everything from WW-II vintage glass to Hasselblad lenses this way. If you're OK separating the lens elements from the shutter, give it a good soak in lighter fluid and then let it dry well and see how it works. Very little other than dried out lubricant bothers these.



Dave

.
.

[cp_photo]

Thank you - I was not able to attach the image of my Horseman to this thread but I did in the "Show off your camera" thread. So far I love it and its sturdy feel, and I have shot some nice images. So far only at home but hope to take it out places in the field this coming week, maybe once it stops raining in California.