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View Full Version : Complaints about moderation are obnoxious and are killing the community



Dan Fromm
9-Oct-2016, 09:07
Let's stop responding to complaints about moderation. Let's shun the complainers. Let them squeal as much as they want, just don't respond.

Leigh
9-Oct-2016, 09:22
Good idea.

- Leigh

Sal Santamaura
9-Oct-2016, 09:24
Let's stop responding to complaints about moderation. Let's shun the complainers. Let them squeal as much as they want, just don't respond.


Good idea...I disagree. It's not a good idea, it's a fantastic, great, stupendous idea! One I implemented some weeks back.

Vaughn
9-Oct-2016, 09:25
+1 -- unless this reply also falls into the same catagory! ;o)

Leigh
9-Oct-2016, 09:34
How does that help the sense of community?
You keep prattling on about "community".

You've made less than 50 posts since you joined eight years ago.

Over half of those are related to your latest gripe fest, so you probably average two posts a year.

What the h*** do you know about community?
You've contributed nothing to the site.

- Leigh

Jac@stafford.net
9-Oct-2016, 09:38
It's easy to preach to the choir, but you learn a lot more by having a conversation with people of differing views. When those with differing views are written off as trolls, what purpose does that serve? How does that help the sense of community?

First, learn more about the community. How can you serve if you know nothing of this culture? Your views are not unique.
.

Sal Santamaura
9-Oct-2016, 10:02
I'm afraid posts #5 and #6 do exactly what Dan suggested we stop doing. :(

Vaughn
9-Oct-2016, 10:08
I'm afraid posts #5 and #6 do exactly what Dan suggested we stop doing. :(

One of my favorite Zen stories is about 3 monks with a vow of silence. One says something and another monk says "You broke your vow, we are not suppose to talk!" -- then the third says, "Now look, both of you have broken your vows!"

Dan Fromm
9-Oct-2016, 10:20
I'm afraid posts #5 and #6 do exactly what Dan suggested we stop doing. :(

+1

Shun means shun. It doesn't mean interact with.

Jac@stafford.net
9-Oct-2016, 10:22
Three Zen masters were on a mountain retreat for solitude. After three years one says, "The soup is sour." Four years later the second master said, "I thought it was too sweet." Eight years pass and the third master suddenly jumped up and stomped away screaming, "All you guys do is bitch, bitch, bitch!"

And he was right!

BrianShaw
9-Oct-2016, 10:33
What complaints?



Ommmmmmmmmmm.

rdenney
9-Oct-2016, 11:11
In the amateur radio "community", the saying goes that if there are two hams in a town, there will be three clubs.

Many forums do not allow any complaints about moderation at all, and those who do are immediately banned. As tiresome as it can sometimes be, we learn things from constructive complaints, even when people lose control at times. We do indeed listen to constructive complaints, and we take them seriously, even when we decide to take no action.

But sometimes venting one's spleen only produces bile. No need to go swimming in it.

Rick "who appreciates the principle of not feeding the trolls" Denney

Sal Santamaura
9-Oct-2016, 12:16
...Many forums do not allow any complaints about moderation at all, and those who do are immediately banned...With the added refinement that it apply to complaints aired publicly in a forum post, I encourage Tuan, you and the other moderators to implement a similar policy here.


...As tiresome as it can sometimes be, we learn things from constructive complaints, even when people lose control at times. We do indeed listen to constructive complaints, and we take them seriously, even when we decide to take no action...You would not diminish your ability to hear, consider and take constructive complaints seriously by simply limiting transmission of them to PM/email.

Randy Moe
9-Oct-2016, 12:30
In the amateur radio "community", the saying goes that if there are two hams in a town, there will be three clubs.


Rick "who appreciates the principle of not feeding the trolls" Denney

Glad I picked the right hobby and forum. :)

Just before joining this community I got my HAM Radio license, bought a transceiver and quickly found I didn't want to chat with any of them. So I picked my next major hobby. LF.

However I have been listening to Shortwave radio since a kid. I take a small SW and long wire with me wherever I go. It was more interesting before the Internet, as many things were.

Like Swap meets and Flying.

Perhaps Photography...

Tim Meisburger
9-Oct-2016, 14:04
Okay.

karl french
9-Oct-2016, 15:38
Um, no. I'm sorry you don't get it. This forum has diminished for a variety of reasons. Over moderation is certainly one of them. It's evolving. But largely without the participation of those who made it great. I'm certainly not as engaged with it as I have been over the last 15 years.

Jac@stafford.net
9-Oct-2016, 16:31
Um, no. I'm sorry you don't get it. This forum has diminished for a variety of reasons. Over moderation is certainly one of them. It's evolving. But largely without the participation of those who made it great. I'm certainly not as engaged with it as I have been over the last 15 years.

Don't let the door slam on your ass as you leave.
.

Leigh
9-Oct-2016, 16:35
I'm certainly not as engaged with it as I have been over the last 15 years.
400 posts in 15 years = engagement ? ? ?

- Leigh

djdister
9-Oct-2016, 16:55
From my completely unscientific and unfounded research, I would say that 98.6% of the complaints about over moderation have to do with the non-photo related forums, i.e. for sale and wanted to buy, the Lounge and of course the Feedback forum. Which lets face it, are not the primary reasons for the LFPF in the first place. I could almost see doing away with those non-essential (non-core) forums in order to improve the overall tenor of the LFPF.

BrianShaw
9-Oct-2016, 16:56
400 posts in 15 years = engagement ? ? ?

- Leigh

With all due respect, you may want to review the wise words in post #2.

Dan Fromm
9-Oct-2016, 17:39
From my completely unscientific and unfounded research, I would say that 98.6% of the complaints about over moderation have to do with the non-photo related forums, i.e. for sale and wanted to buy, the Lounge and of course the Feedback forum. Which lets face it, are not the primary reasons for the LFPF in the first place. I could almost see doing away with those non-essential (non-core) forums in order to improve the overall tenor of the LFPF.

Right. Why let the tail wag the dog?

Willie
9-Oct-2016, 18:00
Don't let the door slam on your ass as you leave.
.

This type of rudeness is uncalled for.
Agree with the original post or not - why not save the vitriol for those who have actually earned it? Everyone is entitled to their opinion and some think the moderators are not doing a good job. So what?

If one has to have a history of posting for years before voicing an opinion - something is wrong.

karl french
9-Oct-2016, 18:17
Somehow you think that number posts equal engagement. If I read the forum everyday and follow threads, I am engaged. I don't have to post to be engaged. Some folks just like to hear hear themselves talk. 4000 posts over four years. Give yourself the chance to listen. I've been here since nearly the beginning (greenspun days.) The forum is at one of it's lowest points. Without people like Sandy, DJ, Jim, and yes Frank, contributing regularly, the forum is diminished.

Leigh
9-Oct-2016, 18:23
Somehow you think that number posts equal engagement.
If I read the forum everyday and follow threads, I am engaged. I don't have to post to be engaged.
Without people like Sandy, DJ, Jim, and yes Frank, contributing regularly, the forum is diminished.
You just contradicted yourself.

Engagement means exchanging ideas.
To do so you must post yours as well as reading those of others.

You could never claim to be "engaged" with a magazine or newspaper if you just read it.
If you send emails to the editor or authors, then you're engaged.

- Leigh

karl french
9-Oct-2016, 18:33
I'm sorry you don't understand.

Leigh
9-Oct-2016, 18:37
I'm sorry you don't understand.
And I'm sorry you don't understand.

- Leigh

karl french
9-Oct-2016, 18:46
If I'm reading Kant's Critique of Pure Reason, thinking about what he has written. I am engaged with the text. This forum is essentially a text. I read and think about what I have read. I am engaged. I do not have to post in order to be engaged. There does not need to be a public performative element in order to demonstrate engagement.

BrianShaw
9-Oct-2016, 19:00
"Defense about moderation are obnoxious and are killing the community."

Corran
9-Oct-2016, 19:16
I've seen forums where veteran posters start chiding people simply for their (lack) of posts - regardless of what they bring to the table. That's poor form and if we want to encourage a new guard of LF photographers to take up the torch, that sentiment needs to be put in check. This is the most visible forum dealing with the craft of LF so let's not kill the hobby by making the newer posters feel unwelcome. Lead by example and perhaps consider sharing your opinion rather than being rude, even if you vehemently disagree. And it's true that some (including me) have many posts here, but new posters can be refreshing and instructive in their own way.

Leigh
9-Oct-2016, 19:48
And it's true that some (including me) have many posts here, but
new posters can be refreshing and instructive in their own way.
Corran,

Please review the dialog above.

I engaged two individuals, one of whom has been here 8 years, the other 15 years.

All newcomers are certainly welcome. I'm often the first to post a welcome message.
I definitely engage all newbies in a constructive manner, trying to help as best I can.

- Leigh

Jac@stafford.net
9-Oct-2016, 19:51
If I'm reading Kant's Critique of Pure Reason, thinking about what he has written. I am engaged with the text. This forum is essentially a text. I read and think about what I have read. I am engaged. I do not have to post in order to be engaged. There does not need to be a public performative element in order to demonstrate engagement.

Well put, well taken.
.

Corran
9-Oct-2016, 19:55
All newcomers are certainly welcome. I'm often the first to post a welcome message.
I definitely engage all newbies in a constructive manner, trying to help as best I can.


My point about posters with low numbers of posts apply both to new posters and members who've been here for a while and just don't post often. Being a member for a long time and not having many posts does not mean their opinion is not worth as much.

Leigh
9-Oct-2016, 19:59
Being a member for a long time and not having many posts does not mean their opinion is not worth as much.
But what it does mean is that they have not engaged the other members of the community.

So we have no way of evaluating the individual.

Perhaps they wrote the book on LF photography.
Perhaps they chewed the covers off of it.

We have no way of knowing.

- Leigh

Corran
9-Oct-2016, 20:03
Really truly most of us have no way to "evaluate" an individual unless we meet them IRL, at least in a certain way. I still enjoy talking to some friends I've made here on a personal basis outside of the forum (email, etc.) which is different from forum posts.

But I agree with the other poster that your definition of "engagement" is limiting. Dismissing the opinions of posters without much "history" so to speak is wrong.

Personally, I also evaluate the value of some posters based on the actual images they post, considering this is a photography-based forum.

Randy Moe
9-Oct-2016, 20:09
Really truly most of us have no way to "evaluate" an individual unless we meet them IRL, at least in a certain way. I still enjoy talking to some friends I've made here on a personal basis outside of the forum (email, etc.) which is different from forum posts.

But I agree with the other poster that your definition of "engagement" is limiting. Dismissing the opinions of posters without much "history" so to speak is wrong.

Personally, I also evaluate the value of some posters based on the actual images they post, considering this is a photography-based forum.

Ah, there's the rub.

Is posting digital image reproduction really the purpose of this forum?

Corran
9-Oct-2016, 20:17
I think we have to embrace the idea. Seeing images in person is nice but we have an international audience so obviously this is a limited option at best.

I know that digital stuff (computer, scanner, photoshop) is anathema to some and they might have a perfect negative but their scan is terrible. So be it. What is the alternative? A photo forum with no photos? I have seen posters write wonderful things about a lens and how sharp it is and then post garbage images with motion blur (not necessarily here) so it is a valuable inclusion depending on the subject or information being presented.

Randy Moe
9-Oct-2016, 21:09
Yes, you have a point. I shoot many more digital images than film, but I print the film and seldom the digital.

Just today I shot digital of a bullet that shot my building. Good thing nobody was in the hallway at that special moment.

Click below and find 'Window shot by neighbor'.

I will.be in that same space tomorrow shooting 8x10...




I think we have to embrace the idea. Seeing images in person is nice but we have an international audience so obviously this is a limited option at best.

I know that digital stuff (computer, scanner, photoshop) is anathema to some and they might have a perfect negative but their scan is terrible. So be it. What is the alternative? A photo forum with no photos? I have seen posters write wonderful things about a lens and how sharp it is and then post garbage images with motion blur (not necessarily here) so it is a valuable inclusion depending on the subject or information being presented.

Tim Meisburger
9-Oct-2016, 23:15
Hilarious. Dan suggests we all just stop responding to complainers, and now we have four pages of complainers, complaining about engagement and complaining about those who complain about complainers, especially those with too few posts. I thought the average age here was over fifty, but seems about four...

Mark Sawyer
9-Oct-2016, 23:49
Somehow you think that number posts equal engagement. If I read the forum everyday and follow threads, I am engaged. I don't have to post to be engaged...


But what it does mean is that they have not engaged the other members of the community...


But I agree with the other poster that your definition of "engagement" is limiting...


I was engaged once, but she left me for another woman. With Woody Allen it's a joke, with me it's a way of life... :confused:

Sorry, I don't have a point. I just wanted to up my post count, you know, just in case...

Dan Fromm
10-Oct-2016, 05:40
Hilarious. Dan suggests we all just stop responding to complainers, and now we have four pages of complainers, complaining about engagement and complaining about those who complain about complainers, especially those with too few posts. I thought the average age here was over fifty, but seems about four...

Three.

Jim Jones
10-Oct-2016, 07:02
But what it does mean is that they have not engaged the other members of the community.

So we have no way of evaluating the individual.

Perhaps they wrote the book on LF photography.
Perhaps they chewed the covers off of it.

We have no way of knowing.

- Leigh

The best way of evaluating someone on this forum is the content and verifiable accuracy of their information. Someone like Bernice Loui, with a fourth as many posts as me, has posted many times as much reliable technical information. Others have unique specialized knowledge such as Jim Galli, Merg Ross, and Mark Sawyer (on pixies). Perhaps if I ever grow up and get old (I just turned 84), I'll quit learning about photography and learn to enjoy the infantile quibbling that sometimes burdens this site. I hope not.

tgtaylor
10-Oct-2016, 12:41
"Those guys that know everything can't take a picture!"

Spoken to me by a well respected camera repair person.

Thomas

sepiareverb
10-Oct-2016, 17:27
Better to not attempt to influence a change in the community to allow it to address ones needs as a newcomer?

I've been a member for a fairly long time. I rarely post as I have less knowledge about much of what is discussed here than others appear to. I'm not one who has a wide range of experience with a lot of LF equipment, despite using a view camera since 1986, and exhibiting prints made in my darkroom in top NY and SF galleries. I settled into a groove that worked for me, and now, as that groove needs rerouting I'm looking for info.

I've been a member of other forums as well, and have seen moderation ruin vibrant communities because the lowest common denominator always becomes the bar. In real life I have interactions with people who rub me the wrong way. I do not feel the need to call in the police or enlist a lawyer to make sure my psyche can emerge unbruised from every encounter that is the slightest bit unpleasant.

Moderation is obviously necessary at times. At its best it is unobtrusive, and it would seem to me necessary that it be so. When moderation becomes a problem to enough forum members that there is a disturbance in the force then moderation has overstepped. We all make mistakes. Overcorrection happens. When on a motorcycle it can be catastrophic, when on a forum it can be annoying. The over-moderation of the classifieds is annoying. I've said before that if a classified thread OP doesn't want chatter on their thread then they should note that and lock the thread. If they find their thread ignored because other open threads are unfairly bumped to the head of the line because of discussion, they've made their own bed. Fairness is impossible because it has a different definition for everyone. Being sure that no one is offended is a sure way to make sure that no one is engaged in any kind of fashion.

I also hear that information in a classified thread isn't archival. I just checked on an old ad of mine, and it is still found by google, still here on the forum. I still have the tripod on offer. Why is this not archival?

None of us is perfect. We all make mistakes, and they can often be much easier to make in this format than in a face to face conversation. But to stifle conversation for the sake of some higher authorities notion of how a community "must be" would seem to ignore the definition of community.

sepiareverb
10-Oct-2016, 17:50
My point about posters with low numbers of posts apply both to new posters and members who've been here for a while and just don't post often. Being a member for a long time and not having many posts does not mean their opinion is not worth as much.

+1



But what it does mean is that they have not engaged the other members of the community.

So we have no way of evaluating the individual.

Perhaps they wrote the book on LF photography.
Perhaps they chewed the covers off of it.

We have no way of knowing.

- Leigh

Not a mindset that will foster community. At the risk of being petulant as a low volume poster I might suggest you think about being a little more open minded?

I am not meaning to offend, only pointing out that this site is a community, and that as such it comprises a wide range of people who are here with a wide range of needs and for varying reasons.

As a member with a longer history here I might point out to the whippersnapper that I have some seniority despite my generally quiet approach to forum life. :rolleyes:

rdenney
10-Oct-2016, 18:39
Better to not attempt to influence a change in the community to allow it to address ones needs as a newcomer?

I've been a member for a fairly long time. I rarely post as I have less knowledge about much of what is discussed here than others appear to. I'm not one who has a wide range of experience with a lot of LF equipment, despite using a view camera since 1986, and exhibiting prints made in my darkroom in top NY and SF galleries. I settled into a groove that worked for me, and now, as that groove needs rerouting I'm looking for info.

I've been a member of other forums as well, and have seen moderation ruin vibrant communities because the lowest common denominator always becomes the bar. In real life I have interactions with people who rub me the wrong way. I do not feel the need to call in the police or enlist a lawyer to make sure my psyche can emerge unbruised from every encounter that is the slightest bit unpleasant.

Moderation is obviously necessary at times. At its best it is unobtrusive, and it would seem to me necessary that it be so. When moderation becomes a problem to enough forum members that there is a disturbance in the force then moderation has overstepped. We all make mistakes. Overcorrection happens. When on a motorcycle it can be catastrophic, when on a forum it can be annoying. The over-moderation of the classifieds is annoying. I've said before that if a classified thread OP doesn't want chatter on their thread then they should note that and lock the thread. If they find their thread ignored because other open threads are unfairly bumped to the head of the line because of discussion, they've made their own bed. Fairness is impossible because it has a different definition for everyone. Being sure that no one is offended is a sure way to make sure that no one is engaged in any kind of fashion.

I also hear that information in a classified thread isn't archival. I just checked on an old ad of mine, and it is still found by google, still here on the forum. I still have the tripod on offer. Why is this not archival?

None of us is perfect. We all make mistakes, and they can often be much easier to make in this format than in a face to face conversation. But to stifle conversation for the sake of some higher authorities notion of how a community "must be" would seem to ignore the definition of community.

One point that Dan may not be making, but that I glean from his original post, is that those who feel the need to litigate every minor annoyance with a new feedback thread (as if that alone is the hinge around which rotates not only their enjoyment of the forum, but perhaps even their enjoyment of large-format photography) are, in fact, the lowest common denominator.

That is certainly not the case with many thoughtful complaints and suggestions we have received, both in feedback threads and directly. But it sure describes a lot of what I see.

Let's face it: Everyone is just bitchy these days, and I'm hoping that in a little while we can all take a chill pill and get back to photography.

Rick "who spent the evening yesterday installing a new high-quality monitor and finally going through some Yellowstone photos from last November" Denney

rdenney
10-Oct-2016, 18:41
I think the attempt to define the quality of participants by their post count has been sufficiently refuted at this point. Let's leave that alone.

Rick "who depends only one what people actually write" Denney

Dan Fromm
10-Oct-2016, 19:06
One point that Dan may not be making, but that I glean from his original post, is that those who feel the need to litigate every minor annoyance with a new feedback thread (as if that alone is the hinge around which rotates not only their enjoyment of the forum, but perhaps even their enjoyment of large-format photography) are, in fact, the lowest common denominator.

Rick, I didn't make exactly that point because I didn't want to start quarrels about whether I was excessively blunt/impolite/downright insulting to our LCDs. To leave no doubt, I sometimes do all that but usually would rather not attract abuse.

For those of you who haven't noticed, I sometime run afoul of our moderators. Posts deleted, warning messages sent, ... When I don't understand why a post was deleted, I ask politely, usually off-line. They answer politely. Sometimes a discussion ensues. I stick pins in them too, off-line. They're mostly good sports, take it all well. I don't see the point of breathing fire and starting wars because I'm offended or something.

Rick used the word litigate. Ain't no court here, folks. Venting here accomplishes no good. Better to go out in the woods where there's no one to hear you and scream as necessary.

A propos of this site holding text written for the ages, few posts here meet that standard. That said, after a lot of thought, I've stopped trying to post links to eBay listings and now have archive.org save listings I want to share here and post links to the version on archive.org. eBay listings are ephemeral. Here today, usually gone in three months.

BrianShaw
10-Oct-2016, 19:13
Rick also used the phrase "everyone is a little bitchy these days". I wasn't but I think I may be now.

rdenney
10-Oct-2016, 19:36
Rick also used the phrase "everyone is a little bitchy these days". I wasn't but I think I may be now.

It will pass, more quickly for some than others.

Rick "who certainly has his bitchy moments" Denney

Randy
12-Oct-2016, 16:54
About 15 years ago we had a photography club in my small town. It had a small membership, perhaps 8-10 long time regulars. When digital took hold we had a few more people join. After a year or two one of the newer members, lets call him Jake, grew impatient and left, starting another club in the community. It grew pretty well and eventually both clubs merged. At some point there was a misunderstanding and Jake left and started another club, and he took a few members with him. Then a couple years later, Jake had a falling out at his new club and he left to start yet another club. So now we have three photography clubs all within about 30 minutes of each other. Thank you Jake :(

ps - I don't know if Jake is still at the last club he started.

Randy Moe
12-Oct-2016, 16:55
About 15 years ago we had a photography club in my small town. It had a small membership, perhaps 8-10 long time regulars. When digital took hold we had a few more people join. After a year or two one of the newer members, lets call him Jake, grew impatient and left, starting another club in the community. It grew pretty well and eventually both clubs merged. At some point there was a misunderstanding and Jake left and started another club, and he took a few members with him. Then a couple years later, Jake had a falling out at his new club and he left to start yet another club. So now we have three photography clubs all within about 30 minutes of each other. Thank you Jake :(

ps - I don't know if Jake is still at the last club he started.

Good one!

Erik Larsen
12-Oct-2016, 17:47
About 15 years ago we had a photography club in my small town. It had a small membership, perhaps 8-10 long time regulars. When digital took hold we had a few more people join. After a year or two one of the newer members, lets call him Jake, grew impatient and left, starting another club in the community. It grew pretty well and eventually both clubs merged. At some point there was a misunderstanding and Jake left and started another club, and he took a few members with him. Then a couple years later, Jake had a falling out at his new club and he left to start yet another club. So now we have three photography clubs all within about 30 minutes of each other. Thank you Jake :(

ps - I don't know if Jake is still at the last club he started.

Ha! I thinks that's a good lesson for all of us here

Vaughn
12-Oct-2016, 18:00
I have had a similar experience on a forum I was helping to moderate...a parents' group for those with triplets of more. One person got really uptight with me, and started her own facebook group (or Yahoo, can't remember...this was late 90s). Several people left. Eventually I heard that the new group disintergrated under the leadership's craziness and control-issues.

Winger
12-Oct-2016, 19:47
I have had a similar experience on a forum I was helping to moderate...a parents' group for those with triplets of more. One person got really uptight with me, and started her own facebook group (or Yahoo, can't remember...this was late 90s). Several people left. Eventually I heard that the new group disintergrated under the leadership's craziness and control-issues.

I was a member of a couple of mostly mom forums when I was a new mom (2010). As much as people here may think things get out of control, NO, not NEARLY like those. One had basically invisible moderation, but most of the members took it upon themselves to tell other members when they'd transgressed. I'm a woman and have worked with mainly women, but those forums were totally different. Dropped out and deleted all cookies, username, and passwords. I think I actually got better at being a mom after that, too.

Merg Ross
12-Oct-2016, 21:03
I was a member of a couple of mostly mom forums when I was a new mom (2010). As much as people here may think things get out of control, NO, not NEARLY like those. One had basically invisible moderation, but most of the members took it upon themselves to tell other members when they'd transgressed. I'm a woman and have worked with mainly women, but those forums were totally different. Dropped out and deleted all cookies, username, and passwords. I think I actually got better at being a mom after that, too.

Bethe, your post jogged my memory of your work. It is truly marvelous, well seen and executed. Congrats!

Best,
Merg