Sinar Handy Helicals

[Corran]

I recently found a relatively complete Sinar Handy kit (estate sale situation), with two lenses/cones.

Am I correct in saying that both helicals are identical save for the markings? If so, are all the helicals the same? So one could conceivably swap whatever lenses they wanted onto those helicals and use them elsewhere, and ignore the markings?

I know these cameras can be a bit valuable/collectible, but I am wondering at the possibility of removing the helicals and mounting them on Linhof 70 or 4x5 boards and using them with my ultrawide lenses. As I alluded almost 3 years ago (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?108597-47XL-58XL-Focus-Helical-Mount-Use-(Linhof)), using lenses like the 38/47/58 XL on the Master Technika is difficult, and potentially really expensive (not sure what Schneider's helicals cost these days). I also would like to use one or two of the lenses on my Linhof 70, and from looking at the Sinar helicals they appear to be able to fit on a baby Technika board, though they may not work on the camera due to mechanical interference with the front standard.

Is this a silly idea? At the very least it seems possible to use them on normal 4x5 Linhof boards. I think the hole needed to mount the helical is roughly the size of a Copal #3. I bought a wide-angle focusing device for my Linhof and that works alright for the 58mm XL but not for the 47mm XL due to placement of the front standard. Haven't tried with the 38mm XL (6x12).

Of course finding the proper cone/helical for these lenses on the Sinar is prohibitively expensive (I know of one Handy w/ complete 58mm XL lens, helical, and cone for sale for $3,000). However the 65mm lens it came with and the 58mm XL have basically the same FFD so I'm at the very least considering drilling out the #00 hole on that helical to a #0 and mounting the 58mm XL. Also, it does use simple Sinar boards so perhaps it's not entirely crazy to get a plain board and build out an extension and make a P&S 6x12 camera with fixed-focus 38mm.......

[LabRat]

The helicals should be spaced for different FL's, so measure the film to flange distance for each...

You can buy a shallow Chinese helical for about $100 to put on a lensboard, and the Sinar ones might have some built-in extension (and the camera might need a shallow or deep one), so measure and see...

Personally, I would keep the outfit together as it is, as these would be more compact/lighter than a conventional camera to carry/use, so shoot/enjoy it!!! :-)

Steve K

[Corran]

The spacing is done by the cones, on the Handy. What I was wondering was whether the travel of the helical was the same regardless of lens used as supplied by Sinar.

My issue with the Chinese helicals for sale on eBay is that the seller told me it could not be mounted off-center. The Linhof MT requires the lens to be off-center on the board, or else it is not centered on the film - this causes vignetting already when using both the 47mm XL and 58mm XL. I have not had one of the Chinese helicals in-hand so I can not say why the seller told me this - I can only report his statement. These Sinar ones seem very compact, which is why I assumed it was possible to make them work properly.

Value-wise, keeping the kit together makes sense, I just would prefer more modern, MC lenses of newer design. The 65mm f/8 SA is not a stellar lens by any stretch of the imagination - hence why I'd prefer to have the 58mm XL on the Handy, but that would destroy the value of the camera since I would have to drill out a larger lens mount hole. Unless the top "plate" of the helical is swap-able? That would be perfect for me to at least try it without damaging anything...anyone know?

[Bob Salomon]

The spacing is done by the cones, on the Handy. What I was wondering was whether the travel of the helical was the same regardless of lens used as supplied by Sinar.

My issue with the Chinese helicals for sale on eBay is that the seller told me it could not be mounted off-center. The Linhof MT requires the lens to be off-center on the board, or else it is not centered on the film - this causes vignetting already when using both the 47mm XL and 58mm XL. I have not had one of the Chinese helicals in-hand so I can not say why the seller told me this - I can only report his statement. These Sinar ones seem very compact, which is why I assumed it was possible to make them work properly.

Value-wise, keeping the kit together makes sense, I just would prefer more modern, MC lenses of newer design. The 65mm f/8 SA is not a stellar lens by any stretch of the imagination - hence why I'd prefer to have the 58mm XL on the Handy, but that would destroy the value of the camera since I would have to drill out a larger lens mount hole. Unless the top "plate" of the helical is swap-able? That would be perfect for me to at least try it without damaging anything...anyone know?

The lenses do not vignette on Linhof cameras with Rodenstock, Schneider or Linhof helicals. Being precision products each Helicoid must be made specifically for the lens and is the exact length to match first the flange focal length of the lens in question and to have its distance and depth of field scales also match that specific lens. After installing the lens on the helicoid you may, depending on the camera body, require a cone for the lens.

[EdSawyer]

Honestly, this all seems like a ton of effort for no gain. Don't mess up the set - buy it and flip it for extra $ if need be, but hacking it up to use it on a Technika (WTF?) seems like a huge waste of effort. ok, you already have the technika, but seriously - find a better platform if you want to do handheld 4x5. It's among the worst possible choices for using wide-angle lenses.

For far less effort/cost/screwing around, you can easily get a Cambo Wide with any of the various cones/lenses and have a better, lighter, cheaper solution that is far less effort. I've seen cambo wides (the original version) with the correct cone and either 47xl, 58xl, 65/5.6, etc. for < $1k on ebay within the last year. Some were serious bargains, like a full cambo wide setup with 47xl, correct board/helical, correct center filter, etc., for like $780 or something crazy like that. (I paid that much for just the lens!)

Even if not going for the Cambo wide, there's other better solutions than any technika. A Meridian 4x5 field camera will easily work better with wide-angle lenses, and still has all the back movements of the Technika series, plus rangefinder focusing, lighter/cheaper, etc.

[Corran]

Ed, the only reason I was considering it was because I have all the parts already. You are right though that the Technika is a terrible choice for wide-angles. Basically if I am shooting somewhere far off and want to bring the Technika for handheld stuff, I have to bring a whole other camera for ultrawides (my Chamonix). This doesn't usually bother me as if I go hiking I don't shoot the Technika (weight) and if I go shoot handheld I don't usually shoot ultrawide, but the precision of the Technika is nice sometimes so I would use it more if I had an easy solution. I also would love to get my 38mm XL working more efficiently on the Linhof 70, which needs a helical to properly work on the rear bed, same as its larger brethren.

Anyway, yes maybe it's a bit silly and maybe I'll just use/sell the Handy. I have a Travelwide but of course it can't switch from the 90mm to 65mm on the fly, so that's a pretty cool feature for the Handy - plus I can use my Grafmatics and 6x12 back on the Handy, a big plus. Only problem is I am missing the tripod adapter piece, so I'll have to look for that.

[EdSawyer]

hi Bryan - thanks for the clarification, that makes more sense now. Hard to say what your best solution is but if you have everything already that makes it a lot easier/cheaper to swap things around.

speaking from doing a bunch of DIY/hacking/fiddling with things with the Cambo wide series, I will say that in general the helicals (at least the schneider ones) are all basically the same - most have the same throw distance, mounting flanges, etc. sometimes the mount hole is a removable piece, but not 100% sure on that without looking again. The distance scales differ of course. The other big factor to take into account is the shape of the inner cone piece. On symmetrical W.A. lenses, the rear cone is about the same size/shape as the front cone, and at least with the schneider cones, these are a pretty precise fit, in terms of what shape/size cone they are expecting. For example I could fit a Nikkor 90/8 into the schneider 90 helical (designed for 90/8 S.A.), but the Nikkor 65/4 won't fit the schneider 65 helical (designed for 65/5.6 SA), since the shape of the Nikkor 65 rear cone differs enough from the SA 65/5.6 rear cone enough for it to not work.

Anyway, good luck and keep us posted,

-Ed