The New Marketplace Rules are Too Restrictive

[sperdynamite]

No comments, no bumping, can't modify a sale, can't post the same item for sale until 30(!) days have elapsed? Was there such a problem in the FS thread that these rules really needed to be implemented?

For example, I am trying to sell my Chamonix kit right now. I've had it for sale as an extensive kit for about a week, but I'm not getting any interest. It's been on page 2 for a while now, and I can't bump it to generate more interest. I might decide to part all the items out to maximise profit if I can't move all of it in one go. But now I have to wait 3 more weeks for that option? I'm sorry but that just seems so unnecessary. Fleabay drove lots of sellers away by having a bunch of draconian policies like these. Selling stuff online is not always as easy as posting and ad and waiting, you often need to make changes to the way something is presented, photographed, posted as a specific time, priced, and packaged. Now I have to wait a month between tries? This isn't the FM forum where seemingly hundreds of items are posted every day, I'm not sure we need these controls. If you want to make constructive improvements that's fine but I feel the recent change is overboard.

[Tin Can]

What you have done here is make a bump for your sale. Not quite Kosher. imho

I saw your ad as many did.

Active buyers search back pages.

[Jac@stafford.net]

What you have done here is make a bump for your sale. Not quite Kosher. imho

Uh oh. We need another rule! :)

[vinny]

Welcome to the large format moderators forum where every other thread is about the moderators.

[sperdynamite]

*Eye roll* I have to be able to talk about the issue I am experiencing to write this post. Also, my bigger point was that now that I know pretty much nobody on this site wants to buy my whole kit, I can't modify the post to make it more attractive outside of just lowering the price for everything which I'm not going to do.

As for bumping itself, what was so bad about it? People want to sell their equipment. If you're serious about moving something, no reason it shouldn't be brought to the top of the pile 1-2 times every week.

[Bob Salomon]

You might do what one seller here has succeeded to do. He posts what he is selling. Then reposts pictures later, then later still, he posts additional specifications on what he is selling. Sometimes he posts additional features again.

But he is not bumping and his product keeps getting reposted.

[djdister]

I thought lowering the price is allowed on a sale posting. Plus, if you break up the kit to sell items separately, you are not re-posting the same item for sale, so the 30 day restriction wouldn't apply.

[Ralph Barker]

No comments, no bumping, can't modify a sale, can't post the same item for sale until 30(!) days have elapsed? Was there such a problem in the FS thread that these rules really needed to be implemented?

Yes.


For example, I am trying to sell my Chamonix kit right now. I've had it for sale as an extensive kit for about a week, but I'm not getting any interest. It's been on page 2 for a while now, and I can't bump it to generate more interest. I might decide to part all the items out to maximise profit if I can't move all of it in one go. But now I have to wait 3 more weeks for that option? I'm sorry but that just seems so unnecessary. Fleabay drove lots of sellers away by having a bunch of draconian policies like these. Selling stuff online is not always as easy as posting and ad and waiting, you often need to make changes to the way something is presented, photographed, posted as a specific time, priced, and packaged. Now I have to wait a month between tries? This isn't the FM forum where seemingly hundreds of items are posted every day, I'm not sure we need these controls. If you want to make constructive improvements that's fine but I feel the recent change is overboard.

You can supplement your original post at any time, changing price, terms, or whatever you wish. The display order in the primary index, however, remains based on the original post date.

[Ralph Barker]

I thought lowering the price is allowed on a sale posting. Plus, if you break up the kit to sell items separately, you are not re-posting the same item for sale, so the 30 day restriction wouldn't apply.

Nope, that won't work.

[sperdynamite]

Yes.



You can supplement your original post at any time, changing price, terms, or whatever you wish. The display order in the primary index, however, remains based on the original post date.

Good to know, I'll make the necessary changes to my post as soon as I can. Still wish when I did so that it got a bump.

[IanG]

Welcome to the large format moderators forum where every other thread is about the moderators.

Very well put. It's now way out of hand and is more about moderators making excessive work or themselves than plain common sense.

The For Sale & Wanted adverts worked well before the constant changes for those of us buying or selling. They won't be any better now, in fact worse as you can't ask relevant (to all) questions, or make helpful comments. That actually now goes against all this forum is about, the sharing of knowledge etc regarding LF photography, whether equipment or techniques.

Ian

[Tin Can]

Disagree

We are free to start a discussion thread about any LF usable object.

The ads will settle down if we let them.

I buy here and I prefer the way it is now.

Even before the new rules, I found a fast PM was the best way to buy.

The few times I have sold, a knowledgeable initial price sold things.

If it doesn't sell within 2 weeks, I take it off the market.

And back when we could comment, I saw many things sell quickly from my interference, where I commented positively, never negatively. It's my fault.

This bazarr is not bizarre. :)

[Ari]

The new FS rules are quite constricting, and admittedly I've sold almost nothing on this forum since the rules were implemented, but there are still many good reasons to come here.
I don't see the harm in commenting or asking questions in a FS ad; it's our version of "hangin' out, havin' a beer", and a lot of the social fabric was gone with that rule change.
Otherwise, it's still a place I enjoy frequenting more than any other website.

[Leigh]

It's rather ridiculous to prohibit comments or questions that clarify the offering.

After all, this site is supposed to convey information to its members, yes?

I'm at a loss to understand all the problems with Classifieds, not just on LFP but on other sites as well.
It's a simple matter to limit the permissible content of additional postings.

If someone breaks those rules, delete the post and ban the person for 30 days.
They'll get the message real quick. Only two moderator actions required, not a long string thereof.

- Leigh

[stawastawa]

especially when new posts dont change the posting order on the for sale page I dont see how comments and questions in the posts should be prohibited. I was hoping that implementing the static classifieds would open things up a little to some discussion. oh well

On off topic form the OP's gripes...

To address, the OP, change your listing, people do search, and I do sometimes subscribe to things I am interested in, so those people may notice the changes and look again at your item.




It's rather ridiculous to prohibit comments or questions that clarify the offering.

After all, this site is supposed to convey information to its members, yes?

I'm at a loss to understand all the problems with Classifieds, not just on LFP but on other sites as well.
It's a simple matter to limit the permissible content of additional postings.

If someone breaks those rules, delete the post and ban the person for 30 days.
They'll get the message real quick. Only two moderator actions required, not a long string thereof.

- Leigh

[Ralph Barker]

Discussions should take place in the appropriate main sub-forums, where they can be found easily in the future, not hidden within a buy-sell post that might get trimmed at some point.

[LabRat]

Not to be too obvious, but it seems that the initial F/S rule change was to prevent the new posts sections from being cluttered (and archived) with F/S, WTB etc postings, so maybe if the F/S, WTB sections were it's own entity where those postings would only go and stay there, and if anyone was looking for something, they would go there and all this activity would not interfere with the main forums... Sorta a sub-forum of sorts... And the forums would be clean of offerings... (Granted, offerings would have less exposure to someone who was not looking for something, but might be interested if offered, but it would seem to be a OK compromise as bumps, etc or parts the old system would be operational as before for sellers???)

Just a thought...

Steve K

[Ari]

Discussions should take place in the appropriate main sub-forums, where they can be found easily in the future, not hidden within a buy-sell post that might get trimmed at some point.

But if I do a search for, say, Fujinon 90mm lens, all relevant threads containing those words will be displayed, including those that were in the classifieds.
They're not hidden if one just uses the search function.

[rdenney]

The FS is just like a classified listing or a Craigslist ad. Our software lacks the features to moderate the bumping wars we used to have (and, yes, it was a problem--bumping serves those most willing to elbow others out of the way, which victimized those unwilling to bump several times a day--but if everyone bumps it spirals out of control), and adding a whole staff of moderators to deal with it is the tail wagging the dog. We all understand the importance of the for-sale forum, but we should remember that it is a supplemental service for regular members. There are already services on the Internet designed for general sales.

If we run out of database room (which we get for free), we may delete some or all of the for-sale archive. We are therefore trying to keep substantive discussions in the main forums. There is no coffee shop in the FS forums--the coffee machine is in the main forums. The water cooler is in the Lounge.

In any case, the mods will not consider changing the sales rules at least until we have had a chance to get used to them.

Rick "we've been through all this before" Denney

[goamules]

I used to sell a lot here, all antique, high quality, desirable photography items. I priced well, proven by the fact that most of my for sale items sold within between 2 hours and 2 days. For years I was able to do this to help the community, even up to the current slump in photography sales. I would be respectful of others, and only bump every week or so. As soon as they changed the algorithms to prevent "new comments" (bumps) from bringing my items to the top, my items quit selling. I mean, that day, like a light switch. So we have a "more fair" system that doesn't do what it's intent is: to allow equipment to be sent out into other owner's hands. Many new members joined to just occasionally buy stuff, but who cares?

A few bad apples ruined a good system for everyone. Here were the problems as I see it:

1. The intent was to not allow Dealers to sell items. But several members NEVER posted anywhere except the For Sale section. And not just one item, once a month. Dozens and dozens of items every month, from a flash cable, to a digital or 35mm camera, to a yard sale found enlarger lens. Sorry, but these are "dealers." And they are the reason an individual, occasional seller had to "bump", because when someone posts 12 items at once, you are pushed to lower pages. Did the new change that doesn't allow a new comment to come to the top, fix this problem? Nope, didn't change a thing for dealers who post 100s of items a year.

2. Unfair bumpers. Maybe 2 out of 50 sellers tried to game the system by bumping every 2 days, for several weeks. The community usually called them out, and they had to stop. Or a moderator would have to get involved.

3. Shill bumpers. Some people would knowingly or unknowingly bump their friends items with comments such as "this is a great buy!". We asked for that to stop, and it was greatly reduced. The new system that only allows the seller to post anything on his for Sale thread was kind of like fixing a scratch in your car with a 10 lb. sledgehammer.

So.....here we are, and here we'll remain, I guess.

[goamules]

And for the Moderator that says "controlling bumping was sooooo harrrrrddddd.....it took all my tiiiiimmmeee...." Um, what is a moderator supposed to do? Sit on high dispensing their wisdom in occasional witty, patronizing posts? Or to quietly moderate behind the scenes? I moderate the Collodion.com forum, and you'd barely know it. And I don't post long lectures about how hard my job is to "school" members.

And it may be just me, but it seems there is MORE work for the moderators now, than before. A quick check of the For Sale a min ago:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5172/29562666360_5367d6795f_o.jpg

Tell you what, and I say again: my idea is to let democracy rein. Give moderation abilities to the forum senior members, all of them. At least for the For Sale section. Let US decide what is excessive bumping. Rather than you volunteering for moderation, then threatening to shut down the For Sale section any time anyone complains. Who gave you that decision authority? Or give ME the moderation of the For Sale forum, and I'll do it, if you put it back how it was.

[Paul Cunningham]

I find them too restrictive also. I understand that this is not a democracy, but isn't the intent to serve the community, even at the cost of a bit of effort?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stawastawa]

But if I do a search for, say, Fujinon 90mm lens, all relevant threads containing those words will be displayed, including those that were in the classifieds.
They're not hidden if one just uses the search function.

The search extent is somewhat of an issue.


...
If we run out of database room (which we get for free), we may delete some or all of the for-sale archive. We are therefore trying to keep substantive discussions in the main forums. There is no coffee shop in the FS forums--the coffee machine is in the main forums. The water cooler is in the Lounge.
...

Archiving/deleting the F/S forums is a good reason to not want important information put there. But have the new rules resulted in more information on the forum? I think that if valuable information is shared in FS threads, for it to be valuable someone has to recognize it, and it should be encouraged that people then share that in non archived areas. But at the moment of sales, getting information and discussion on an item can be important, and encourages those with coffee or beer to interact.
Also, Great analogy.


...
1. The intent was to not allow Dealers to sell items. But several members NEVER posted anywhere except the For Sale section. And not just one item, once a month. Dozens and dozens of items every month, from a flash cable, to a digital or 35mm camera, to a yard sale found enlarger lens. Sorry, but these are "dealers." And they are the reason an individual, occasional seller had to "bump", because when someone posts 12 items at once, you are pushed to lower pages. Did the new change that doesn't allow a new comment to come to the top, fix this problem? Nope, didn't change a thing for dealers who post 100s of items a year.
...
3. Shill bumpers. Some people would knowingly or unknowingly bump their friends items with comments such as "this is a great buy!". We asked for that to stop, and it was greatly reduced. The new system that only allows the seller to post anything on his for Sale thread was kind of like fixing a scratch in your car with a 10 lb. sledgehammer.
...

The no more than 3 FS posts per day rule has helped prevent dealers, the rest of the changes I'm not so sure have.
I found the "great buy" posts to be helpful, as they were often from members who I had seen posting elsewhere in the forum who I felt trusting of their opinion.

Someone posted that part of the goal was to change how posts show up in the 'new posts' section. Is it possible to have a 'new posts' page that shows posts for each of the forum sections? One for the "community forums" one for the "LF forums" (and one could then make one for a separate "marketplace" forums)?

[Leigh]

We are therefore trying to keep substantive discussions in the main forums.
But Rick...

Why would a comment regarding a particular FS or WTB item be more appropriate in a general forum?

A person reading the post in the Classifieds would have no way of knowing that such a thread existed.

-----

The suggestion that this saves storage space is specious.

In fact, the new procedure wastes more storage space. Example:

I recently PMd a seller suggesting that certain information be added to his thread.
He did so.
So now you have two posts that have to be saved (my PM and his in-thread post) rather than one.

-----

The idea that deleting a Classifieds thread containing comments loses "general information" is also specious.
If the comments are about the specific item listed, losing them only deletes that specialized information.

- Leigh

[sanking]

How complicated does a FS/WTB section have to be? I participate in a number of forums that have FS sections. For example, here is the For Sale section of the Luminous Landscape forum.


For Sale
A place to list items for sale. No commercial ads allowed. No 'silent' auctions; asking price should be stated. Please move all questions and negotiations offline. Restricted to photography related products.

That is it. And you can see that a lot of merchandise is advertised on that forum.


Compare that simplicity to the rules on the LF forum.

For Sale or Trade -- USE OF THIS AREA IS STRICTLY AT YOUR OWN RISK. This is a private area open only to those who have been members for 30 days or more. Classified ads are limited to the photographic equipment (all formats), photography books, and prints of registered users. The item for sale must be owned by and in the possession of the seller or its location and ownership status fully disclosed in the sales listing. Items that the member may wish to simply give away should be listed here, with the preface “Free” in the thread title. The sales price must be clearly stated in the original post. Auctions are not permitted, nor are announcements, pointers or links to items for sale at other web sites or points of sale. They are prohibited and will be deleted without notice. Please prefix all post titles to indicate intent: "FS" , or "FT" (for trade), etc. Please read the Guidelines specific to this section prior to posting, or risk deletion..

Wanted To Buy -- USE OF THIS AREA IS STRICTLY AT YOUR OWN RISK. This is a private area open only to those who have been members for 30 days or more. WTB ads are limited to photographic equipment (all formats), photography books, and prints desired to be purchased by registered users. Please read the Guidelines specific to this section prior to posting, or risk deletion.
For Sale Member-Made LF Gear and Accessoreis -- USE OF THIS AREA IS STRICTLY AT YOUR OWN RISK. This is a private area open only to those who have been members for 30 days or more. For-sale ads here are limited to new LF gear, accessories and LF darkroom gear actually made by the member placing them up for sale. Threads (in this sub-forum) will be displayed in the date/time order of the initial post, newest first. Please read the guidelines for this section prior to posting, or risk your post being deleted.
Buyer Seller Advisories -- Any reports about the outcomes of transactions with providers of products and services to large-format photographers must be made in the "Buyer/Seller Advisories" sub-forum. The purpose of this sub-forum is to provide a service to large-format photographers who need to know whom to trust in a small market. All posts in other forums complaining about specific transactions will be moved to this forum, and repeated mispostings by a person may result in moderator action. Threads in the Buyer/Seller Advisories forum must be: -Factual -Unemotional -Related only to what actually happened. Comments about the character or honesty of the person described will be deleted without notice, and repeated negative personal comments will result in moderator actions. Remember, personal attacks and abuse to other site users is not allowed on this forum. Demands for action are also not appropriate anywhere on the Large Format Photography Forum, and will be removed. The LFPF does not provide any mechanism for seeking resolution of an unsatisfactory transaction--resolution must be pursued outside the forum. This sub-forum is for simple reports of outcomes of transactions here and elsewhere. If the transaction occurred elsewhere, then it must involve transactions of products or services relevant to the large-format community.

Seriously, guys, in an effort to solve a real or perceived problem I would suggest that you have created something of a monster. Moderators, please consider that your approach in creating a rule for every moment may be the wrong approach.

Sandy

[David Lobato]

How complicated does a FS/WTB section have to be?

Sandy

Since these new policies came in I have stayed away from the For Sale section. In fact, I still haven't browsed there. I can't explain why, but it seemed just too complicated. Seemed like having to learn another software application, ugh. Prior to that I was somewhat active in buying and selling. Not sure if I will jump in again or not.

[rdenney]

The LL rules are simply stated, and not that different from ours. They also disallow the very things people are complaining that we disallow here. Maybe they arrived by a different path. Maybe they pay their moderators. I honestly don't know.

I do know that too many people find whatever line we draw and dance right up to it, crying crocodile tears if the step a toe over the line and we take some action (or if we don't take action). So the line has become more precisely drawn over the years in the hopes people will be able to more reliably avoid it. Maybe Michael (RIP) or his mods just banned those people without trying to be so precise.

We could select a FS czar with absolute power, but I don't think that's what people want.

I know for sure that no matter what rules we've tried for the sales forum, and we've tried many different formulations, there has been a dedicated opposition to them. That gets tiring, but worse it just chases the rules in circles, if we let it.

I've just gotten off 9 hours of flying, trying to respond to this while catching my breath running between flights. I'm just grumpy.

Rick "who has read complaints about the sales forum for the entire time it has existed" Denney

[rdenney]

Since these new policies came in I have stayed away from the For Sale section. In fact, I still haven't browsed there. I can't explain why, but it seemed just too complicated. Seemed like having to learn another software application, ugh. Prior to that I was somewhat active in buying and selling. Not sure if I will jump in again or not.

Why?

One doesn't have to study the rules to buy things. I just last night browsed the first four or five pages, and it took about a two minutes. But only rarely do I find anything to buy--I already have everything I need. I have never used the sales forum here for dedicated buying, and I have only used it for filling in the corners of a kit.

If someone wants to buy a camera according to a general spec (monorail vs field, for example), a quick scan identifies what's available. But if I'm looking for something specific like a Sinar board with a 42mm hole, I go to dedicated sales sites. If I happen to see one here and think I might have a use for it, I buy it, but I have to be pretty lucky for specific stuff to appear just when I decide I need it. That was true when I first joined this forum, and it's still true.

This isn't a store and the breadth of what is available has never been enough to use it for dedicated shopping as opposed to speculative shopping.

If someone is building a kit and they don't know what they want, they should ask those questions in the main forum. Maybe even do a bit of searching and reading for similar questions and use cases. I've seen many sales threads in the past derailed because someone hijacked the conversation to ask if that's what they needed, and if not, what do they need, etc.

Sellers want to sell things, not provide counseling. If I'm selling something, I don't think I want a bunch of questions and comments from people not really interested in buying.

We used to receive quite a lot of complaints about that--the discussion distracted from and sometimes undermined the sale. Lots of people used to comment on the asking price, people who weren't themselves potential customers. We used to receive many complaints about that, too. And then there the bumping wars, where a dedicated few climbed all over each other to elbow everyone else out of the way. Only the bumpers liked that. Sellers never liked the "PM sent" posts, where buyers who had not actually done (yet) any buying tried to keep others from doing so. Many complaints--those PMs that were sent often contained low-ball offers or requests to do things the seller had already said he wouldn't do in the sales listing. And, yes, there were those who listed two dozen items in a batch, flooding the forum with items not from their own usage but bought just for resale. How are we supposed to detect that? The extremes are obvious but that leaves a lot of middle ground.

It's not just that the mods dislike complaints, it's that many of these complaints revealed problems for the targets of the service: regular members who want to occasionally sell things or buy things with people they know through the forum. They are the people we are trying to serve.

So, I can browse a hundred posts in a minute or two, and if I see something, I can click on the seller's username and send a PM or email. That's how I've always bought things on the sales forum, and what I see now is that browsing every few days won't require me to scan through a bunch of posts I've already seen. It seems to me that it's easier.

What I'm hearing is that people want to trade stuff at the water cooler, and that casual buyers won't browse stuff unless the sales forum seems like the coffee-break room. Maybe that's true. But we had moved away from being able to do that long ago, judging from the long history of dedicated complaining.

Rick "wondering about demand and supply" Denney

[cowanw]

Nevertheless somehow this thread gets bumped to the top with each post in my daily viewing and has the chit chat.
FS: Water Heater Recirculator 7000 Calumet / Arkay

[jnantz]

maybe if the for sale forum was broken down into parts of a "kit" it would make it easier for people who have trouble finding stuff because they can't search for it ...
for example have a subsection, "accessories" where compendiums, dark cloths, shutter releases, tripods do dads, and light meters are, then a "modern" lens section, then a "vintage lens" section
then a camera body section ( one for each size 4x5, 5x7, and ULF ) then "complete camera and lens" ..

i never go to the buy sell section not because it is complicated but because there is usually nothing i want, and things i have to sell no one wants ;)
but i find it to be kind of funny that no matter how the buy/sell forum is - no rules, sort of rules, more active rules no one is happy. while it is a great service
this website offers, it always seems to be a large pain in the neck for the moderators who have to deal with complaints behind the scenes, and now every 5 or 8 days
threads about how the for sale sale section stinks now because it is just a for sale listing wtih out chat about the item. one would think if someone wants to know about an item
they don't know about they could google it, and then PM the owner a question about it, and if it is imporant to the sale of the item maybe the owner could update the for sale page
with something like " does not contain 15 waterhouse stops it originally came with, or felt lined box and instruction manual from 1910" or "rear element has a gouge in it 2" deep, here is a photograph
of the gouge, i have filled it with black water color ( can be removed with water ) and expsed this film wide open to show its effect in the print"
or maybe an interested buyer could start a thread in the main forum about noba studio cameras, and ask if anyone knows where they were made, what formats they came in
and the features and benefits of the system ... instead of a 5 page long conversation in the for sale section ... the website is about large format photography, not just a for sale section ...
probably info on the noba camera ( and links to other threads and info ) might be helpful to others that find ore are interesetd in that type of camera ... i don't think for sale items come up
in the search when one searches the main forum, unless they use google to search for things... ( i might be wrong )

[pjd]

The current selling rules seem quite reasonable to me. Constant bumps to push items back to the top of the board just benefited sellers who shouted loudest - well, bumped most frequently. It's pointless to click on a thread for updated information just to see something like "Friday bump". The search feature works well enough to dig out older threads, in my opinion.

[sperdynamite]

I just don't see why you can't enforce bumping limits, but still allow threads to go back to the top. My post is now on page 3 or 4. I just updated it, but I seriously doubt anyone will see it. If you look on many for-sale forums at both the WTB and the FS adds, you see that there are a lot of 'ships passing in the night' so to speak. People do not necessarily do their best diligence by searching. And what's more, if I set my price too optimistically, and then lower it later, anyone who did visit the ad will never know that I lowered my price unless they're revisiting my ad multiple times. Why would anyone do that when it's on page 4? I stand by what I said before, selling stuff online is all about timing and tweaking. The current forum rules make it a lot harder to make and then tweak an ad until you get it right and find a buyer. Just live and let live a little here guys. If 1 or 2 people are abusing the site, well, moderate. Give a warning or ban them for a certain amount of time.

[rdenney]

Nevertheless somehow this thread gets bumped to the top with each post in my daily viewing and has the chit chat.
FS: Water Heater Recirculator 7000 Calumet / Arkay

It depends on how you are viewing it. If you are viewing through Tapatalk or using "New Posts", the bumps bump. But if you navigate to the For-Sale forum, those are ordered by the timestamp of original post. At least they are supposed to be. These are limitations of the software.

Rick "who'd rather the software enforce this automatically in all cases, but alas..." Denney

[stawastawa]

Rick "who'd rather the software enforce this automatically in all cases, but alas..." Denney

so many variables! and different ways of viewing the forums that produce unique little situations/ quirks / problems for each of us.

[rdenney]

I just don't see why you can't enforce bumping limits, but still allow threads to go back to the top. My post is now on page 3 or 4. I just updated it, but I seriously doubt anyone will see it. If you look on many for-sale forums at both the WTB and the FS adds, you see that there are a lot of 'ships passing in the night' so to speak. People do not necessarily do their best diligence by searching. And what's more, if I set my price too optimistically, and then lower it later, anyone who did visit the ad will never know that I lowered my price unless they're revisiting my ad multiple times. Why would anyone do that when it's on page 4? I stand by what I said before, selling stuff online is all about timing and tweaking. The current forum rules make it a lot harder to make and then tweak an ad until you get it right and find a buyer. Just live and let live a little here guys. If 1 or 2 people are abusing the site, well, moderate. Give a warning or ban them for a certain amount of time.

Everything you are suggesting has been tried, and also generated impassioned complaints. It wasn't 1 or 2 people abusing the site. We've had deeply experienced members who just can't resist commenting on sales threads, because they are here to talk about LF stuff. But even though that isn't the place for those discussions, and allowing those discussions there caused many problems and piles of complaints, we don't really want to start applying disciplinary action to long-time members who are indulging exactly what this site is intended to provide (except in the FS forum). So, instead of constantly reminding people about it, with warnings and banning, we just set the forum so that nobody can respond to sales threads except the OP. I seriously doubt that will prevent any sale from being made, if there is an actual buyer. I don't think it's the job of the forum to teach its members how to write an ad through extended trial and error. My observation is that any desirable item, if adequately described and well priced, will sell quickly. If it is not generally desirable and needs a special buyer, those buyers will be searching for things. And perhaps prices on some things have declined in recent years and not everyone has caught up with that. I was at Camera West in Palm Springs earlier in the week, and looked at several of their LF lenses. I was shocked, given Camera West's reputation for pricing, at how low the prices were. Prices are set by sellers but validated (or not) by the market.

It may be that our rules do, in fact, interfere with some sales, while making other sales more visible than they would otherwise have been. But there seems to be zero solution space here, based on all the things we've tried, when measured by who it does or does not make happy.

Well. for now, we are trying this one.

Rick "you have no idea how much 'moderating' the FS forum has actually required in the past" Denney

[Luis-F-S]

I just don't see why you can't enforce bumping limits, but still allow threads to go back to the top. My post is now on page 3 or 4. I just updated it, but I seriously doubt anyone will see it. If you look on many for-sale forums at both the WTB and the FS adds, you see that there are a lot of 'ships passing in the night' so to speak. People do not necessarily do their best diligence by searching. And what's more, if I set my price too optimistically, and then lower it later, anyone who did visit the ad will never know that I lowered my price unless they're revisiting my ad multiple times. Why would anyone do that when it's on page 4? I stand by what I said before, selling stuff online is all about timing and tweaking. The current forum rules make it a lot harder to make and then tweak an ad until you get it right and find a buyer. Just live and let live a little here guys. If 1 or 2 people are abusing the site, well, moderate. Give a warning or ban them for a certain amount of time.

It's a private list. Don't set your price so optimi$ticaly and then it will sell without bumps! There's always the auction site if you're that unhappy!

[Chance2]

I for one wish there was a way to remove all of the for sale items from under "Today's Posts." It's better now than it was--for a while it was like opening a search results page at Craigslist--but I still tire of all the for sale posts.

Must they be included under Today's Posts? I don't need constant updates on what's for sale and what's been sold. :)

[sanking]

"Rick "you have no idea how much 'moderating' the FS forum has actually required in the past" Denney"

On any forum some things must be moderated, and do indeed take up a lot of time. In the main threads that characterize this forum most people attempt to stay on topic so the major need for moderation would be to maintain civility becaues even in the best of worlds decent people do make mistakes of behavior.

The FS forum, not being essential to the mission of the LF forum, and not being a soure of revenue for this site, should in my opinion function strictly on a Buyer Beware basis. That is how it functioned until around 2012 when the moderators began to create the current set of rules as a result of some whining from members about real or perceived views of the resonsibility of the LF forum to protect them. And the result is an increasing use of rules to moderate the FS and WTB threads, including the Buyer Beware section. Well, more rules in this area will never work because rules can never replace buyer or seller responsibility. I am amazed by the number of people who attempt to involve the forum in buying and selling issues which are purely a private matter and have problems because of their own failure to do their homework.You can put in as many rules as you like but in the end they will only result in, 1) need for more time in enforcement by the moderators, and 2) irritation by members at the real or perceived absurdity, complexity or inconvenience of more rules.

You seem to believe that the rules have benefited the forum in some way. I disagree, and say that as a buyer and seller who has never experience any problem in buying selling on this forum.

My suggestion to you and the other moderators is to simply get rid of the morass of rules and advisories and reduce the FS/WTB section to a simple two or three line paragraph similar to what they have on the Luminous Landscape, state clearly that it is not the role of the LF forum to moderate or intervene in sells between indiviudals, and leave it to those who wish to use the selling and buying tool to resolve their own problems. In my opinion that would be a vast improvmenet over the current situation.

Sandy

[sperdynamite]

It's a private list. Don't set your price so optimi$ticaly and then it will sell without bumps! There's always the auction site if you're that unhappy!

I reject the premise that I should simply deflate my prices so that my items sell faster than they can go off page 1. That's just crazy, and it would deflate the value of all our gear investments. I'm not trying to give anyone a screaming good deal, I'm trying to sell my items at their fair market price to a small audience. In my case now, I simply broke up the prices into pieces since for simplicities sake, I started by trying to sell as a kit. I didn't actually lower my prices, I just broke up the sale. I did a lot of research before I priced my gear and it is based on former sales right here on LFF. However, anyone looking for a Chamonix will probably just post a WTB since they won't see my ad most likely.

Instead of the 30 day limit, you could just make it 7 days. I hardly see the harm in someone reposting an item they want to sell every 7 days. That gives people's ads plenty of time to circulate. But generally I agree with the other posters who think that you should just take a laissez-faire, buyer beware approach. These changes might not sound like a big deal when you're not actively trying to sell something, but when you are, they become massively restrictive. This is the kind of thing that drives sellers TO LFF from places like eBay, which is always my absolute last resort due to their exorbitant fees and rules.

[Ralph Barker]

"Exorbitant fee" - iɡˈzôrbəd(ə)nt fē - adjective + noun. a relative term

eBay charges the typical seller a commission of 10% of the sales price, and if PayPal is used, there is a PayPal fee of 2.9% + $0.30, which can be charged to either buyer or seller, as agreed. And, then there are the PayPal refund policy issues. There are additional small fees for enhanced listings, etc. eBay store sellers pay a monthly subscription fee, and lower commissions. Listings are free, up to a certain number, after which additional charges apply. Various rules apply.

In contrast, what might be called "live" auction houses charge sellers a commission of up to 25%, and charge buyers a "premium" of up to 23% (17.5% at Christie's, 20% at Sotheby's, 23% at Skinner). These fees, of course, are in addition to appraisal and other fees (e.g. prep, crating, and shipping) that are paid by the seller. Marketing, and attracting the right set of potential buyers are handled by the auction house. Complex rules, defined by contract, apply.

Used camera vendors typically pay about 50% of what they think they can can sell the item for, but it's an up-front payment, not tied to the item actually selling.

LFPF - no seller fees, no buyer premiums, 3/day limit on listings, rules apply.

Everyone has a choice.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I reject the premise that I should simply deflate my prices so that my items sell faster than they can go off page 1. That's just crazy, and it would deflate the value of all our gear investments.

Investments? Camera gear is an investment to professionals who can depreciate equipment, and more. It seems to me you are erring by considering a free venue vs pay-as-you try to sell.

[sperdynamite]

"Exorbitant fee" - iɡˈzôrbəd(ə)nt fē - adjective + noun. a relative term

eBay charges the typical seller a commission of 10% of the sales price, and if PayPal is used, there is a PayPal fee of 2.9% + $0.30, which can be charged to either buyer or seller, as agreed. And, then there are the PayPal refund policy issues. There are additional small fees for enhanced listings, etc. eBay store sellers pay a monthly subscription fee, and lower commissions. Listings are free, up to a certain number, after which additional charges apply. Various rules apply.

In contrast, what might be called "live" auction houses charge sellers a commission of up to 25%, and charge buyers a "premium" of up to 23% (17.5% at Christie's, 20% at Sotheby's, 23% at Skinner). These fees, of course, are in addition to appraisal and other fees (e.g. prep, crating, and shipping) that are paid by the seller. Marketing, and attracting the right set of potential buyers are handled by the auction house. Complex rules, defined by contract, apply.

Used camera vendors typically pay about 50% of what they think they can can sell the item for, but it's an up-front payment, not tied to the item actually selling.

LFPF - no seller fees, no buyer premiums, 3/day limit on listings, rules apply.

Everyone has a choice.

Yeah it was either going to be eBay, LFF, or Christie's. *eyeroll* But if your point is that selling something should feel like a colonoscapy no matter where it takes place, then you've succeeded.

[goamules]

All I know is the for sale section, after the recent changes, has become klunky, null, and void. Fewer people are selling, so fewer people are finding what they might like. Was that worth stopping an unfair bump or two?

People don't search the FS section because they don't know what they might be interested in. Search for what? "Dallmeyer 3B" might come back empty because someone listed it as "Dream Lens". 99.9% of the users will simply click the For Sale link, look up and down the first page subject lines. Less than half of them will even click on page 2. The argument that we should "train the world" to workaround a klunky system is....well, a stupid workaround. The main problem is that a bump doesn't bring it to the top. Fix that, it's all back to good.

[Dan Fromm]

I reject the premise that I should simply deflate my prices so that my items sell faster than they can go off page 1. That's just crazy, and it would deflate the value of all our gear investments. I'm not trying to give anyone a screaming good deal, I'm trying to sell my items at their fair market price to a small audience.

Sheesh! LFPF is a poor venue for selling equipment. It doesn't reach enough potential buyers. If you're trying to sell here you have to accept that unless you offer desirable items at relatively low prices you'll make few sales.

Fair market value has a meaning, and sellers (that's you) don't get to set it. It is what items usually sell for in markets with many sellers and buyers. eBay, for example.

I think you're looking for rich suckers here and not finding them. Fancy that.

[sperdynamite]

I consider my equipment investments, I am a professional photographer. I expect my film gear to hold at least 70% of it's value, in many cases it has held 100% of it's value or more.

As for your other point, look, all I did was suggest that the new rules are too restrictive. I didn't kick a table over or throw a beer in anyone's face. If you don't agree with me then make your opposing argument or move it right along. If my opinion is so earth shattering to mods or forum members then I'm totally fine with the thread being deleted. It's just my feedback which I believe I should be free to give.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I consider my equipment investments, I am a professional photographer. I expect my film gear to hold at least 70% of it's value, in many cases it has held 100% of it's value or more.

Value is determined by the selling price. Any consumer hardware over a year old and sold is devalued. Work it out.

Maybe you should shift to reselling used refrigerators.
.

[sperdynamite]

Sheesh! LFPF is a poor venue for selling equipment. It doesn't reach enough potential buyers. If you're trying to sell here you have to accept that unless you offer desirable items at relatively low prices you'll make few sales.

Fair market value has a meaning, and sellers (that's you) don't get to set it. It is what items usually sell for in markets with many sellers and buyers. eBay, for example.

I think you're looking for rich suckers here and not finding them. Fancy that.

Fair market value as in I searched through recent closed FS ads and priced my equipment according to those sales. Where on earth do you get the idea that I was saying FMV means a number I pulled out of my head? Most 45N-2s on this site have been selling for $800-850.00 and that's where I priced mine. Yeah if I were to set it at $500 dollars someone would buy it right away! But I don't feel like getting particularly fleeced.

And I would counter that LFF is one of the best places to sell...wait for it...LARGE FORMAT equipment. If you go over to FM, GetDPI, or Camera Gear on Facebook most people just want Canon and Nikon stuff. This one one of the few places where I can list a Fujinon 150/6.3 and someone will know what it is.

[Corran]

Other than giving things away, "market value" is not something anyone can accurately gauge every time. Prices (since they are required!) are a guess based on best judgment at the time and are liable to change...but the point is no one sees the change unless they subscribe to the thread. I wonder how many do that?

Twice now I have posted items at what I consider ridiculous prices here (low), and they refused to sell, and then sold on eBay for 20-30% more...and then days/weeks later I was messaged with a firm offer for purchase here. I believe the problem was not the price but the (lack of) exposure. I don't remember weekly threads in the feedback forum about the Classifieds before the changes, nor do I remember obvious heavy moderation.

[sperdynamite]

*duplicate post*

[sperdynamite]

Value is determined by the selling price. Any consumer hardware over a year old and sold is devalued. Work it out.

Maybe you should shift to reselling used refrigerators.
.

Yeah no sh*t. ONCE AGAIN: I BASE MY PRICES OFF OF PREVIOUS LISTINGS ON THIS WEBSITE AND CONSIDER THAT NUMBER FAIR MARKET VALUE. I am not trying to advocate for higher prices. But when you sell something for what it's worth, you often have to wait a while before a buyer comes along.

Maybe you should take a reading comprehension class because I never ever was trying to argue the point that I should be able to sell items at higher prices than what people are willing to pay for them.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Yeah no sh*t. ONCE AGAIN: I BASE MY PRICES OFF OF PREVIOUS LISTINGS ON THIS WEBSITE AND CONSIDER THAT NUMBER FAIR MARKET VALUE. I am not trying to advocate for higher prices. But when you sell something for what it's worth, you often have to wait a while before a buyer comes along.

Maybe you should take a reading comprehension class because I never ever was trying to argue the point that I should be able to sell items at higher prices than what people are willing to pay for them.

It is best to consider the selling price rather than asking price if revealed. Are you new to reality, like born yesterday? Good luck, ranter.


Maybe you should take a reading comprehension class

Perhaps you are right. It has been almost 50 years since I studied at Oxford, England.

[Leigh]

I expect my film gear to hold at least 70% of it's value
You're dreaming.

I would never pay more than 50% of new price for any used gear, even if still sealed in the original package.

Nothing listed here is unique.
If the asking price is too high, it gets ignored and folks buy the item from another seller.

I never go back to see if a seller has lowered the asking price.
If he doesn't know how to price his stuff properly, he doesn't need my money.

- Leigh

[Corran]

So you are advocating for sellers to perfectly price their item 100% of the time. That's impossible without screwing yourself. Sure, I could sell my Linhof Master Technika for $200 instantly but whose to say what the proper price is for both buyer and seller? I have always said the rule about listing your price is part of the issue. Some items are so uncommon as to be almost impossible to price. How much is my 21cm APO Lanthar in modern Compur 3 worth? Who knows, I've never seen another in that shutter, much less for sale, so basically it is unique. I think one should be allowed to post with a Best Offer personally, as in no listed price.

[sperdynamite]

Ok Mr. Oxford English Dictionary. What is the appropriate selling price for a less than 6 mo old Chamonix 45N-2? Because that's what we're talking about here. Maybe if you can take time out of your busy schedule of telling people that you studied at Oxford, England then I can be enlightened with your wisdom. Where did I ever say that I wasn't basing my price off of the final selling price if I see it? I never said that. But please keep constructing your straw man from your inability to understand what I'm actually writing with words.

[sperdynamite]

So you are advocating for sellers to perfectly price their item 100% of the time. That's impossible without screwing yourself. Sure, I could sell my Linhof Master Technika for $200 instantly but whose to say what the proper price is for both buyer and seller? I have always said the rule about listing your price is part of the issue. Some items are so uncommon as to be almost impossible to price. How much is my 21cm APO Lanthar in modern Compur 3 worth? Who knows, I've never seen another in that shutter, much less for sale, so basically it is unique. I think one should be allowed to post with a Best Offer personally, as in no listed price.

Exactly this. People on this thread need to stop piling on me with this absurd argument based on a misunderstanding of what I actually said.

[Tin Can]

Heck, I have been 'yelled' at here for selling too low!

But I wanted the stuff gone and it was gone.

I often value gear on what I paid for it. All my gear is old, sometimes I get a bargain I don't want. But not always. :)

A deal I once got on eBay for NOS Linhof, started at $2500, then seller went to $1200 and then he finally dropped to $600. I bought and that gear is never being sold by me. :)

Sometimes you need to not flinch. That seller also wrote a note saying how glad he was I got it!. We emailed a bit.

I once sold a well used, but reliable old VW Camper to visiting Germans sight unseen. They picked it up with cash, drove it all over USA for 6 months and resold it. Then sent me a thank you card when they got home.

How's your caramel?


There are also sales here that are never posted. After a while we start to know each other.

[sperdynamite]

You're dreaming.

I would never pay more than 50% of new price for any used gear, even if still sealed in the original package.

I never go back to see if a seller has lowered the asking price.
If he doesn't know how to price his stuff properly, he doesn't need my money.

- Leigh

Point 1, What is 50% off of a Rolleiflex 2.8F?

Point 2, Exactly, which is why the ads need to circulate so you know when someone made a correction or modification to their offering. But secondly, we negotiate for prices on homes and cars, many services. Businesses compete with fluctuating prices all the time. How have you lived in the world where you never have to negotiate for anything?

[Corran]

Randy is right too. The aforementioned 21cm Lanthar was sold to me at a phenomenal deal by an old advertising photographer who was glad to sell it to someone who would use it. I will never sell that but it's probably worth twice that. Same with some other items.

[rdenney]

Yeah no sh*t. ONCE AGAIN: I BASE MY PRICES OFF OF PREVIOUS LISTINGS ON THIS WEBSITE AND CONSIDER THAT NUMBER FAIR MARKET VALUE. I am not trying to advocate for higher prices. But when you sell something for what it's worth, you often have to wait a while before a buyer comes along.

Maybe you should take a reading comprehension class because I never ever was trying to argue the point that I should be able to sell items at higher prices than what people are willing to pay for them.

Perhaps prices on much film gear is going down, simply because it is harder to do and fewer people are doing it, with some exceptions. You know, the effects of supply and demand.

But I completely agree that sometimes you have to wait for the right buyer to come along, if you are looking for the buyers willing to pay the most rather than the buyer willing to pay the least. Bumping every seven days isn't waiting for the right buyer, it's badgering those who have already demonstrated that they are not the right buyer but, well, not buying it. Don't overestimate how many we have looking through the FS forum. The right buyer, who is looking for that specific thing, will find you even if you are on Page 8. By the time you get to Page 10 or so (with default settings), the month will have passed and you can close and relist it. Furthermore, I don't think a sales post with half a dozen bumps attached to it is going to impress that buyer willing to pay the most.

And film equipment at 70%? Really? I'm used to paying 20 oe 30 cents on the dollar for used film equipment. For the professional work I do, which is all digital, I buy new and don't expect that to hold its value at all. But I buy what I need and use it until it's worn out. If you bought the equipment used within the last year or two, then 70 cents on the dollar might be reasonable. But new professional-grade large-format stuff is very expensive these days, even at 70%.

As I said before, prices seem to be in decline, even in places accustomed to selling to well-to-do people with deep pockets. There are some exceptions for stuff that has collectible rather than user value, but this really isn't the place to sell that sort of stuff.

Rick "maybe you should not attack people personally, though the used-refrigerator comment was a bit provocative" Denney

[Jac@stafford.net]

Heck, I have been 'yelled' at here for selling too low!

But I wanted the stuff gone and it was gone.

I often value gear on what I paid for it. All my gear is old, sometimes I get a bargain I don't want. But not always. :)
See how ya are, Randy!? Yer a radical economist; the rational trend setter. Nobody but the knowledgeable are gonna like ya. Keep it up! Maybe we should start a consortium.

These whiners who cannot make a buck ... losers, dreamers?

(You gotta know I am joshing you, Randy, and trawling for ...)

[sperdynamite]

All I'm trying to say is that if I buy a Leica M4 today for $1000 bucks, and nothing happens to it, tomorrow I can still sell it for $1000 bucks if I find a buyer. That's holding 100% value. Should the price of a perfectly good Fujinon 150/6.3 that I purchased used go down if it's condition didn't change? It hasn't been traded new for 40 years or more. So yeah, film equipment holds it's value. I just bought a Pentax 6x7 and sent it off to Eric Hendrickson for a full overhaul. I bet once I get it back I could post it for sale for MORE than I paid for it, assuming I attach the added value of the CLA. The 'new' price can't even be part of the discussion because most of this equipment hasn't been sold new in decades. It's all just fair market value based on ads you see.

[Jac@stafford.net]

All I'm trying to say is that if I buy a Leica M4 today for $1000 bucks, and nothing happens to it, tomorrow I can still sell it for $1000 bucks if I find a buyer. That's holding 100% value.

If you find a buyer. Good luck.

The missing factor there is time and buyers' expectations. I have at least two rare Leica M models, however the buyers market is slim. They are worth nothing until they a SOLD.

Wanna see them? Answer if only your are a qualified buyer, which you are probably not

[sperdynamite]

If you find a buyer. Good luck.

The missing factor there is time and buyers' expectations. I have at least two rare Leica M models, however the buyers market is slim. They are worth nothing until they a SOLD.

Wanna see them? Answer if only your are a quantifier buyer, which you are probably not

1. I am not selling rare Leicas nor did I use a rare item to make my point, this appears to be another sort of straw man argument which has nothing to do what what we're actually discussing.

2. I do understand that I must wait for a buyer to come along. I just want to make it easier for that potential buyer to see my ad.

3. Why are you so hostile and rude? There is NO REASON to make insinuations about my income.

[Jac@stafford.net]

[...]
3. Why are you so hostile and rude? There is NO REASON to make insinuations about my income.

It is my nature. :)

[rdenney]

All I'm trying to say is that if I buy a Leica M4 today for $1000 bucks, and nothing happens to it, tomorrow I can still sell it for $1000 bucks if I find a buyer. That's holding 100% value. Should the price of a perfectly good Fujinon 150/6.3 that I purchased used go down if it's condition didn't change? It hasn't been traded new for 40 years or more. So yeah, film equipment holds it's value. I just bought a Pentax 6x7 and sent it off to Eric Hendrickson for a full overhaul. I bet once I get it back I could post it for sale for MORE than I paid for it, assuming I attach the added value of the CLA. The 'new' price can't even be part of the discussion because most of this equipment hasn't been sold new in decades. It's all just fair market value based on ads you see.

Really? The going rate for a 67 body is about $300 in need-to-send-to-Eric condition. The last one I bought was on this forum. I sent two to him within the last couple of years so I know what he charges. I'm not sure I could make money on the CLA'd 67 if I include the cost of the CLA.

But if you buy good used stuff and sell it in similar condition, you probably can get what you paid, if you bought well. But sometimes you don't. With new stuff; no way.

Leica stuff is a bit of its own mystery, though. It's like Rolex watches, whose collectors have lost their minds.

Rick "who looked at a lot of used Leica stuff at Camera West this week" Denney

[rdenney]

1. I am not selling rare Leicas nor did I use a rare item to make my point, this appears to be another sort of straw man argument which has nothing to do what what we're actually discussing.

2. I do understand that I must wait for a buyer to come along. I just want to make it easier for that potential buyer to see my ad.

3. Why are you so hostile and rude? There is NO REASON to make insinuations about my income.

1. All vintage Leicas are collectible and prices as collectibles, and you brought them up.

2. It's easy enough, and as easy as it has ever been.

3. Do not send faster than you can receive. But some folks are plainspoken in these parts, and you just have to get used to it. We do make a distinction between harmless curmudgeons, which is all of us at one time or another, and true disrespect.

Rick "respectfully submitted" Denney

[sperdynamite]

Really? The going rate for a 67 body is about $300 in need-to-send-to-Eric condition. The last one I bought was on this forum. I sent two to him within the last couple of years so I know what he charges. I'm not sure I could make money on the CLA'd 67 if I include the cost of the CLA.

But if you buy good used stuff and sell it in similar condition, you probably can get what you paid, if you bought well. But sometimes you don't. With new stuff; no way.

Leica stuff is a bit of its own mystery, though. It's like Rolex watches, whose collectors have lost their minds.

Rick "who looked at a lot of used Leica stuff at Camera West this week" Denney

Pentax 6x7 system prices have spiked recently. People are coming back to this whole film thing.

[jnantz]

how much something is worth depends on whether or not jim gali has a write up of it on his website.
thankfully he has written up some garbage lenses and what not i paid less than $20-30 for
and i sold it to and bought a used car, and dental work: its that simple. not everything has that sort of curb appeal.
you want your gear to sell for what you paid for it a few weeks, months years later, you best
give it to jim and have him add it to his photo diary of the nevada mining village pages, it will sell for
more than whatyou paid originally, even after your advertising/pr premium sent to tononpah
whether he will be paying off the little green men with gummy worms or purple m&ms is still a mystery.
don't forget the letter of authenticity.

[sepiareverb]

Ah well, another case of not being able to please everyone so we should just ruin it for everyone. I've never seen how discussion on a FS or WTB thread is problematic. Should there now be a separate thread in the relevant forum about the lens I am trying to sell? Or the item I want to buy? Do I start a thread about an item I'm looking for in the appropriate forum and mention that they should look at my current want to buy ad before messaging me? Piling on more and more restrictions seems absolutely silly. Let the seller/wanter allow or not allow comments by closing/locking the thread. Those that find the comments annoying are served, those who don't mind the comments are served. Those who complain about bumping are able to see every ad by looking down to page ten, so why should they complain? Ugh. Just been away for a week or so and come back to find this has devolved yet again. Sad. We used to be so happy.

[LabRat]

Sale pricing is what the market will bear... If someone walked into a Sunset Bl guitar boutique, and bought a vintage classic hanging on the wall for $50,000 (rare, but does not come up often at all, so few price precedents) and changes his mind a couple of weeks later, what can he get for it (more or less)???? Or someone walks into a Beverly Hills restaurant and orders a cheeseburger, which is priced at $75... Is it wrong, or just what someone will pay for it!?!!!

There is no real "going rate' these days for photo stuff... Online sales pricing is all over the place depending on if you are buying or selling, and if you are a big dealer, buying and then selling, or a shabby dressed person trying to sell at some seedy pawn shop, or the well dressed person asking for the selling price of the same item at that same shop... (There are some general understandings about value vs cost, but all bets are off generally depending what side of the counter you are standing at...)

That's capitalism for 'ya!!!

Steve K

[Jac@stafford.net]

Leica stuff is a bit of its own mystery, though. It's like Rolex watches, whose collectors have lost their minds.

Can you blame the Rolex freaks? From everyone they ask the time, the answer is different!

[Corran]

how much something is worth depends on whether or not jim gali has a write up of it on his website.

This is actually a good point. A couple of years ago I wrote a blog post about a certain Nikkor lens, and one that had never been looked at or reviewed by Ken Rockwell. I suddenly got tons of hits on my blog - like 5x the normal number - all on that one post. A little bit later the prices spiked on eBay 50-75%. I didn't intend for it, but I happened to have an extra one so I sold it on eBay for double what I paid.

Watch prices on vintage lenses/cameras when a well-known reviewer or blogger writes a piece about it.

I have also noticed the spike in Pentax 67 gear. Funny thing is I sold all of my P67 gear to fund my 4x5 stuff last time it hit a spike, and then bought it all back last year for 30-50 cents on the dollar that I sold it for. I'm holding onto it, this time.

[sanking]

Sheesh! LFPF is a poor venue for selling equipment. It doesn't reach enough potential buyers. If you're trying to sell here you have to accept that unless you offer desirable items at relatively low prices you'll make few sales.

Fair market value has a meaning, and sellers (that's you) don't get to set it. It is what items usually sell for in markets with many sellers and buyers. eBay, for example.

I think you're looking for rich suckers here and not finding them. Fancy that.


I agree totally with Dan. LF forum is not the best place to sell most photographic equipment, even large format stuff. The best place as a seller to get close to fair market price is ebay. If you sell here the number of potential buyers is far less than you would see on ebay. In many cases I have offered equipment for sale here for a week or so with no buyer, then sold it on ebay for 25% or more than the offering price on the LF forum.

So I would suggest that if you really expect to sell equipment here you should research actual selling price on ebay and offer it for sale here for less. Why less? Simple reason is that a buyer has more protection buying through the Papal system of ebay than here, especially from someone with no history on the forum.


Sandy

[BrianShaw]

I consider my equipment investments, I am a professional photographer. I expect my film gear to hold at least 70% of it's value, in many cases it has held 100% of it's value or more.

As for your other point, look, all I did was suggest that the new rules are too restrictive. I didn't kick a table over or throw a beer in anyone's face. If you don't agree with me then make your opposing argument or move it right along. If my opinion is so earth shattering to mods or forum members then I'm totally fine with the thread being deleted. It's just my feedback which I believe I should be free to give.

I thought most professionals depreciated the value of equipment on their taxes to "get their money back".

[Jim Jones]

LFPF is a great place for photographers to buy and sell among themselves. I trust LFPF and rarely look at ebay any more. It is also a great place to expand our large format knowledge. Ebay is neither, but is a useful place for place for merchants and their victims. May the two sites and their adherents never meet.

[Pfsor]

LFPF is a great place for photographers to buy and sell among themselves. I trust LFPF and rarely look at ebay any more. It is also a great place to expand our large format knowledge. Ebay is neither, but is a useful place for place for merchants and their victims. May the two sites and their adherents never meet.

Really? Well Jim, let me tell you my experience - all my bought used equipment comes from Ebay, none from LFPF. And I never felt like a "victim of merchants" on Ebay, quite the contrary - met very nice people online during my shopping there. If you want to avoid eBay at all cost, it's fine with me - more chance for the rest of us who get good stuff from there without prejudices. And you know what? Some of the merchants on Ebay were people from LFPF! Go wonder.

[sperdynamite]

I thought most professionals depreciated the value of equipment on their taxes to "get their money back".

I do this with my Nikon digital equipment yes. Film stuff is much cheaper so you're better off taking the full deduction IMO.

Btw I just sold my stuff so yes, it retained 70% of its value. If the buyer chooses to sell the equipment as soon as he receives it for him it will retain 100% of its value I would imagine.

[Ralph Barker]

I thought most professionals depreciated the value of equipment on their taxes to "get their money back".

True, although, as I recall, the depreciation period allowed is frustratingly long, and totally inconsistent with the life of digital gear.

On the other hand, LFers repreciate the value of old, used gear. ;)

[Tin Can]

Good point! I restored my ULF with three new bellows, price that! DIY better GG. Custom Ritter bail back mod. Kept patina but gently upgraded cosmetics by hand. Made lens boards. Installed NOS 4.5" Packard inside with better flash sync from modern micro switches. Found NOS Bakelite knobs for leveling exactly like the original. Upgraded to SS counterweight cables. Might upgrade to better. same as vintage casters. Refinished posts in better than original paint which is easily touched up and doesn't scratch or flake. Bought NOS Packard bulbs and hose. Also 5 Richard Ritter new film holders that are perfectly functional yet ageless design.

I know I repreciated! and gave an old boy another 50 years. No I don't use it everyday nor has it improved my photography.

No profit, no loss. NFS. :)

I think it needs a DIY dust cover...a dark cloth wire support or hood...


True, although, as I recall, the depreciation period allowed is frustratingly long, and totally inconsistent with the life of digital gear.

On the other hand, LFers repreciate the value of old, used gear. ;)

[Fr. Mark]

I've sold a few things here and on APUG. Also bought a few things here and have been very happy with the transactions. I will list a few more things soon, I think, on both places. Once something got lost by the USPO on its way here that forum member gave me a full refund. It was $75. That's amazing service. I guess I've gotten so much from the community knowledge base and been treated reasonably here on buy/sell I plan to continue.

[Fr. Mark]

As to re-preciating I've semi restored a couple of LF cameras: one half plate, one 8x10 in progress. Neither are gee whiz cameras but they make me happy.

[jnantz]

This is actually a good point. A couple of years ago I wrote a blog post about a certain Nikkor lens, and one that had never been looked at or reviewed by Ken Rockwell. I suddenly got tons of hits on my blog - like 5x the normal number - all on that one post. A little bit later the prices spiked on eBay 50-75%. I didn't intend for it, but I happened to have an extra one so I sold it on eBay for double what I paid.

Watch prices on vintage lenses/cameras when a well-known reviewer or blogger writes a piece about it.

I have also noticed the spike in Pentax 67 gear. Funny thing is I sold all of my P67 gear to fund my 4x5 stuff last time it hit a spike, and then bought it all back last year for 30-50 cents on the dollar that I sold it for. I'm holding onto it, this time.



hi corran

i have done the same thing.
some of the plate/box cameras i use typically
cost about 20, maybe $30 when i bought them ...
i have been looking for septums for one ( supposed to have 12, came with 8 ), been looking for 15 years ...
i'd rather buy a camera so i don'thave to attempt to make my own ... anyways,
i have written articles and shown images in my blog and elsewhere from these junque cameras
and now unfortunately i can't afford to buy an extra junquer to use the septums .. trippled or 5x the price now ..
at least for the "upscale" model, the entry level clunquer model doesn't appear for sale much ..
but i am sure when it does there will be a tag " ultra rare " and somebody will buy it for $150-200 and have as fun with it.

you want these unloved things cheap but now they are loved and expensive, kind of like the 1972 rust bucket of a vw bug down the road,
the guy wants 15,000$ for something that has been parked in "salt air" and not run for 5-10 years... it used to be advertised as $150 "needs a little work"
( needs a little work used to be code for: sieized engine, flintstone mobile ( holes in floorboards ) rusted out heat channels, great for lawn sculpture or parts hog )

[Tin Can]

Counterpoint:

Seems to be a steady refrain that affordable, meaning almost free, gear is gone. I disagree, notice the 'Great Purge' thread here, where long term LFPF members 'have to clear' their abode. Purgers don't get top price as they are in a hurry. 'The End is Near' mentality. Others are good samaritans and give gear away to preserve the Art. I have bought out purgers, I have been given much but I also pay top dollar for something I want. Consider it as a whole and find what you spend on average.

How many people are throwing out film, prints and gear? Plenty as evidenced here.



We don't have industry numbers on film, chemistry and SG paper sales. Do we? We are missing data.


I added a new link to my sig below. A story about me 3 years ago. I have not changed my tune, and hope I don't as I endure frailties of age.

[Jac@stafford.net]

[...] Others are good samaritans and give gear away to preserve the Art.

Yes, as partial evidence is the gear some of us donated to Greg Hindy, including you, Randy. You also gifted him with your time and expertise. Thanks for being there.

[Tin Can]

Yes, as partial evidence is the gear some of us donated to Greg Hindy, including you, Randy. You also gifted him with your time and expertise. Thanks for being there.

Greg cost me actual cash. I rented a car to go get him and 3 days later replace him in situ. I dislike spending money on cars.

But I got more from him, in story and song. I still follow his adventure. Right now he is nearing US from Canada in snow.

All good!

[Jim Galli]

When's the last time you saw me post in the classified's? OK, now go see how often I post at all compared to before. 'nuff said. It affects the larger community. Lots of old timers losing interest.

[c.d.ewen]

When's the last time you saw me post in the classified's? OK, now go see how often I post at all compared to before. 'nuff said. It affects the larger community. Lots of old timers losing interest.

+1

I just don't feel welcome here.

Charley

[IanG]

+1

I just don't feel welcome here.

Charley

+2 The moderating of the Classifieds is having that effect. I've recently posted a Wanted advert on two other forms when this might be more apprpriate.

Ian

[Tin Can]

-3+

[Jac@stafford.net]

Here is an idea! Prospective buyer puts money into a silo fund! They limit their exposure to the genre/items they wish to purchase. The rest of us gamble upon the likelihood of that occurring. I'm ready. :) :)

[sperdynamite]

Just sold my 90mm which I bought for $200 dollars, for $200 dollars. 100% of it's value retained. Would anyone like to admit when they're wrong yet?

[sperdynamite]

Just sold my Travelwide on eBay for $550.00. That would be 500% of it's original value. Hope certain commenters are enjoying their general state of wrongness. :-)

[Tin Can]

Just sold my Travelwide on eBay for $550.00. That would be 500% of it's original value. Hope certain commenters are enjoying their general state of wrongness. :-)

Absolutely! :)

[Dan Fromm]

Just sold my Travelwide on eBay for $550.00. That would be 500% of it's original value. Hope certain commenters are enjoying their general state of wrongness. :-)

I hope you're not referring to my comment that eBay is a much better for selling photographic equipment venue than LFPF.

You too, Randy.

[Tin Can]

Dan,

Sarcasm often comes with ! :)



I hope you're not referring to my comment that eBay is a much better for selling photographic equipment venue than LFPF.

You too, Randy.

[Jim Galli]

Maybe if this discussion gets too stupid Atilla and the huns will turn it off. That's what they do, right?

[Bob Mann]

Just sold my Travelwide on eBay for $550.00. That would be 500% of it's original value. Hope certain commenters are enjoying their general state of wrongness. :-)

Lets see - new from Wanderlust is less than $200. So you ripped someone off - I don't see the benefit to this forum where my experience buying and selling has been fair prices and accurate descriptions. It would be a shame if this becomes a "market place" where greed is the first priority. :)

[Corran]

fair prices

If the buyer is happy to pay $500 and up for a given product, regardless of the original price, that is as fair as fair can be. The TW has clearly garnered a cult following and people are paying for the privilege considering the limited availability of the product.

I bought both of the Lomo Petzval lenses recently Kickstarted and didn't care for them...to eBay they went where I made a tidy profit. It's just how supply and demand works.

[BrianShaw]

Just sold my 90mm which I bought for $200 dollars, for $200 dollars. 100% of it's value retained. Would anyone like to admit when they're wrong yet?

Isn't that really 100% of your investment, not necessarily the value? I would have given you $250 so you may have cheated yourself by selling so fast.

[Bob Mann]

If the buyer is happy to pay $500 and up for a given product, regardless of the original price, that is as fair as fair can be.

That might be true for Ebay, but why brag here about Ebay sales? I would hate to see this community become a smaller Ebay where almost anything is OK.

[Tin Can]

+1000%



That might be true for Ebay, but why brag here about Ebay sales? I would hate to see this community become a smaller Ebay where almost anything is OK.

[Corran]

I'm not sure what "where almost anything is OK" means.

Buyers generally want to pay the least for an item as possible, Sellers generally want to get the most they can for something. Sure there are some outliers, and you have to keep in mind eBay fees and such where selling here for 10% less is technically the same amount. If everyone here was super altruistic and sold stuff for 50, 60, or 70% less than it sells for on eBay you'd most likely have a lot of opportunistic folks buying and flipping anything of value.

There's nothing wrong with selling something for less than you might get for it on eBay of course. I have benefited from such transactions and bought things I would not have normally at eBay prices - and therefore the seller made a quick sale which some value highly. And sometimes people just remember they paid $X for an item so list it at the same price, not realizing they could have gotten a lot more here or eBay due to what people were paying for said item (I've had sellers back out of transactions after I had already paid for something and then they looked on eBay what they were selling for).

I think most everyone here strives to be fair and balanced personally. Also, IMO people here are more likely to look for and pounce on a real steal rather than pay what something is actually worth. This isn't as bad as some places. On another photo forum classifieds I have had a real problem with low-ballers - PMs offering 1/3rd or 1/4th what I'm asking and berating me for pricing things at "only" 20-25% less than eBay. One more example - I paid $50 for my Travelwide, which is a stupid low price. Okay, so I could get 10x on eBay. I'm not selling...but me listing it here, for example, at $100 would be unethical to some people because I am profiting. What should I sell it for if I were to actually want to sell it? $50? That would be ripping ME off, in my opinion.

[BrianShaw]

It's not a sin to profit in a deal, Bryan. There may be a sin associated with telling a lie or stealing but the guilt some folks pass on about another persons decision on pricing an item they want to sell is absurd. It's just butting in where a butt isn't welcomed. It's false pride and making an assumption that other grown ups need to be morally managed. Yet at least one of those kind of people prices items absurdly high and makes huge profits (when an item finally sells) but has found all sorts of ways to justify why that's okay but it's not okay for others. Don't let the guilt of a kook become your guilt!

Different sellers have different motivations and different pricing strategies. Whether here or eBay it really isn't too hard to get a deal at times, pay a fair price most of the time, and maybe even see a few deals that are too rich and best left to somebody else.

[Bob Mann]

I think most everyone here strives to be fair and balanced personally.

Me, too! And I would add friendly, I have been able to pass along equipment that I no longer needed or made a purchase here and have felt good about the transactions.

That is what makes this forum different from Ebay - there is a sense of community - more like a swap meet between people than a marketplace driven by maximizing profits. As I said before, my experience here has been sellers by and large asking fair prices.

So, back to the original topic, I don't find the rules for selling here to be too restrictive, but then I am not a dealer who might be looking for another sales outlet, or a buyer to overcharge. And, if I need to research a "market price" I know how to search completed Ebay sales.

[Corran]

I agree 100% Brian. In fact if I hadn't profited from selling a bunch of Pentax 67 gear I bought cheap I might not ever have gotten into LF.

I have a vague recollection of someone giving away an 11x14 camera in the classifieds. I wonder what ever happened to that camera? Did the recipient of such a gift make any actual photos with it? I would feel bad if someone gave me something like that and then not use it. I've also been sold some items very cheaply that I wouldn't sell for profit (or ever) because they were sold to me incredibly cheaply with the implicit understanding of me using them and not sitting them on a shelf or flipping them. Such is life.

Anyway, sorry to knock the thread off-course. Back to it I guess.

[sperdynamite]

I'm going to sell my items for what buyers are willing to pay, everyone has a choice and I am facilitating that decision. I had an auction start price of $300.00, and a buy it now of $550.00. This person chose $550.00. Was he ripped off? Well you can't get TW's new anymore, and others have paid more than he did. I'm not going to apologize to people who think I should keep prices below what people are willing to pay.

[sperdynamite]

Isn't that really 100% of your investment, not necessarily the value? I would have given you $250 so you may have cheated yourself by selling so fast.

Yes, that is 100% of my investment which is exactly what I said.

[sperdynamite]

That might be true for Ebay, but why brag here about Ebay sales? I would hate to see this community become a smaller Ebay where almost anything is OK.

The point was not to brag, the point was to respond to a bunch of very rude commenters who insisted that I must sell equipment for the lowest possible price to ensure that they don't require 'bumping'. One of these people went so far as to make personal insinuations about my income and basically intelligence. Apparently bumping FS ads is banned but that A**hole is welcome. Turns out, my prices were fine, and with a little patience, I found buyers.

[Leigh]

The TW has clearly garnered a cult following and people are paying for the privilege considering the limited availability of the product.
In the modern world where many folks have more dollars than sense, any item can become a "must have".

Such items enjoy prices will beyond their actual value because they're "status symbols".
In fact they just reflect the stupidity of the buyer.

This has no bearing on the general category of depreciated value.

- Leigh

[Jac@stafford.net]

[...] Turns out, my prices were fine, and with a little patience, I found buyers.

Of course you did. Please consider that 'Bay has huge coverage and is definitely oriented to persons seeking to buy and sell. We have no metrics for this site which is largely about sharing knowledge, but it is certainly not as large and convenient as the big auction site. ...oh and the auction site is not free.
.

[Corran]

This has no bearing on the general category of depreciated value.

Well perhaps you can read again and show me where I discussed depreciated value at all.

As for a buyer's "stupidity," that would be your opinion and nothing more.

[BrianShaw]

Yes, that is 100% of my investment which is exactly what I said.

Oh, okay. To me "investment" and "value" are different. Glad that you are happy with your deal.

[Bob Mann]

The point was not to brag, the point was to respond to a bunch of very rude commenters who insisted that I must sell equipment for the lowest possible price to ensure that they don't require 'bumping'. One of these people went so far as to make personal insinuations about my income and basically intelligence. Apparently bumping FS ads is banned but that A**hole is welcome. Turns out, my prices were fine, and with a little patience, I found buyers.

Yes, but apparently not here. And, yes it does seem like bragging about your sales skills, and if you make a habit of posting for sale items, I am going to have to do my due diligence on your asking prices.

[sperdynamite]

Of course you did. Please consider that 'Bay has huge coverage and is definitely oriented to persons seeking to buy and sell. We have no metrics for this site which is largely about sharing knowledge, but it is certainly not as large and convenient as the big auction site. ...oh and the auction site is not free.
.

The TW was actually the only item that I sold on ebay. The other stuff I mentioned was all sold right here on on this very forum. So, you're still just a very wrong, rude person, who insults strangers on the internet. Must be fun to be you.

[rdenney]

Some differences between here and ebay:

-Ebay charges sellers a commission. We don't. Sellers must increase prices to net the same income from a sale.

-Ebay reaches a vast audience, including nearly everybody looking for any particular thing. We reserve the For-Sale forum for regular members. Thus, ebay is more likely to find a buyer more quickly, especially if the price is set aggressively for the seller.

-Ebay puts all the risk on the seller. If the buyer is unhappy for any reason (or is willing to pretend to be so), the seller will be required to make the buyer whole, even if it means the seller's loss of entire value of the item. Even if the buyer buys an expensive item, claims it is defective, and returns a completely different item, ebay will side with the buyer. This has been documented in many places, and it's one reason I no longer sell stuff on ebay. Sellers must incorporate this risk into their price in order to account for this risk. Here, buyers and sellers are on equal footings, and work out between them how they will share that risk. Much of the risk here is minimized by the relationship that buyers and sellers have, by virtue of sharing participation in the forum (assuming both are active participants). Thus, active participants are more likely to have that benefit of the doubt. Note that we have a number of members who used to be much more active than they are now (inluding me) and the standing that participation earned in the past won't be recognized by members who joined after they stopped participating as much.

-Ebay uses software that manages the price and sales transaction, right down to the shipping. We have no way of doing that, and thus the buyers and sellers must actually communicate with each other to complete the transaction. Oh, the humanity!

-Ebay is not a forum dedicated to the use of the items being sold there, and thus is not a resource for determining value (as opposed to price). (Price is how much one pays, value is whether they should buy it at all.) The vast pool of potential ebay buyers will include people who do not have the learning experience that participating in this forum imparts. That learning experience means that items that truly are valuable will be more likely to find a specialist buyer here, but sellers who hope to find a buyer willing to pay a price inconsistent with a knowledgeable understanding of value will do less well than on ebay.

-Ebay buyers are subjected to no risk of their reputations being damaged. Sellers are unable to provide poor ratings on buyers who pay quickly, but who otherwise find ways to demand partial or total refunds. Here, both buyers and sellers can report on their actual transactions, putting both on an equal footing when it comes to protecting their reputations.

-Ebay has a dispute resolution service, highly biased towards the buyer. We have no dispute resolution service and we expect buyers and sellers to work out their issues on their own.

All these differences means that the risk to sellers is higher with ebay, and the risk to buyers is higher here by comparison. That will always mean that ebay will fetch higher prices to compensate for that higher risk, not even considering the higher cost of using ebay. And buyers, because they are assuming more risk here, can expect better prices than when using ebay.

If sellers want to take that risk to get the highest possible price, that is completely fine with us. There is no reason in the world why we would want to discourage (or disparage) them from doing so. Selling large-format items anywhere in the market has the same effect on promoting the viability of the medium as selling stuff here. For example, I have in the past used the number of pages of Sinar stuff on ebay to demonstrate that Sinar is an easy kit to complete and maintain (which is a key issue of viability). Newbies might actually be better off with ebay, given the risk bias in favor of buyers, or with retailers like KEH and B&H. Clearly, a strong market for equipment promotes the viability of the medium, but that market strength does not have to all happen here.

The bottom line is that we want a service that our regular members can use to trade stuff with people they know here on the forum. That's all we ever wanted. We will never measure the effectiveness of the for-sale forum here in terms of prices or volume.

Rick "who has opened a discussion with other mods on ways we can simplify the FS rules without changing them" Denney

[sperdynamite]

Yes, but apparently not here. And, yes it does seem like bragging about your sales skills, and if you make a habit of posting for sale items, I am going to have to do my due diligence on your asking prices.

Your due diligence will only tell you that you're paying about what other folks are paying for the same item around the same time period. I don't get why this is so controversial.

[rdenney]

Your due diligence will only tell you that you're paying about what other folks are paying for the same item around the same time period. I don't get why this is so controversial.

With all due respect, your insistence on receiving affirmation of your point is in part why it seems controversial. You've made your point. Let's move on.

Rick "respectfully submitted" Denney

[DonJ]

Just sold my Travelwide on eBay for $550.00. That would be 500% of it's original value. Hope certain commenters are enjoying their general state of wrongness. :-)

Don't spend that money yet. It won't really be yours until the end of March.

[Tin Can]

Don't spend that money yet. It won't really be yours until the end of March.

And PP will reach right into your bank and take it back.

[jnantz]

And PP will reach right into your bank and take it back.

thank goodness !
i have had bum-sales and was extremely happy to be refunded
when a seller sold me " like new, works like a charm " camera
and when it was received the film advance mechanism was jammed, there were other mechanical problems
and camera looked like it was stored in a humid barn for 50 years ..
also much easier than getting a cranky canadian who sold the same sort
of " like new, works perfect, daily user, shutter perfectly timed blah blah blah "
coupled rangefinder, but upon receipt it wasn't anything as described, and the repair guy
couldn't even remove the seized cells to cla the shutter .. in order to get a refund
it was like getting removed from ip address black list 15 years ago, but intead of leaving a polite
anonymous message on a dark web message board
i had to politely ask for the "pink international postal money order" that wouldn't cost me 80$ to cash
and in return i returned the camera, and received not only the money order but emails full of personal insults
not only directed towards ME but the wannabe hack loser of a repair guy too... if i had paypal it would have been
quick and easy without the troubles ... getting off the black list was easier too.

[Tin Can]

Some people do specialize in rip off, both ways.

What I don't like about PP is it's reach throughout the land, nearly every online store uses it. It has become a monopoly, just as Amazon has.

My first E-Bay sale went sideways on a set of encyclopedias.

The buyer was shocked when I suggested I would knock on his door the next day, give him a refund and want the books back. Since he was 700 miles away he thought he was far away...

[Jac@stafford.net]

The TW was actually the only item that I sold on ebay. [... snip hostility ...]

eBay disagrees. You have at least five completed sales there.

[DonJ]

eBay disagrees. You have at least five completed sales there.

I only see four recent sales, and only the Travelwide was LF gear.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I only see four recent sales, and only the Travelwide was LF gear.

So what?

[Vaughn]

...The bottom line is that we want a service that our regular members can use to trade stuff with people they know here on the forum. That's all we ever wanted. We will never measure the effectiveness of the for-sale forum here in terms of prices or volume.

Rick "who has opened a discussion with other mods on ways we can simplify the FS rules without changing them" Denney

I think this is the best way to look at our forum and its 'marketplace'.

Vaughn "reformed habitual maker of non-sale comments on sale postings" Hutchins

[sperdynamite]

eBay disagrees. You have at least five completed sales there.

In the context of this conversation, but nice try.

[Ari]

Who cares what happens on eBay? The point of this discussion is to underline the point that selling amongst ourselves has gotten more difficult and annoying.
I no longer bother listing things here; I had a gentleman's entire lens and camera collection to sell, and everything went to auction on eBay.
I posted a few of the items here, but stopped bothering once the listing went to page 2.
The motivation for selling here used to be to meet a new friend, do a little horse-trading, give and get a fair deal, and make some gear chit-chat; it added up to a positive experience that made the process very enjoyable, and strengthened the community.
Now that that's no longer the case, I actually prefer selling things elsewhere.
Two caveats: 1) Despite this, I'm aware that the mods have a tough job on regular days, I just wonder if they haven't made their job tougher. 2) I'm not a buyer/seller by trade, I just like to keep busy and try out a lot of gear.
Though I no longer will use the FS section, I still find it an enjoyable and helpful place to post and ask questions.

[stawastawa]

...
The motivation for selling here used to be to meet a new friend, do a little horse-trading, give and get a fair deal, and make some gear chit-chat; it added up to a positive experience that made the process very enjoyable, and strengthened the community.
Now that that's no longer the case, I actually prefer selling things elsewhere....

I think this describes something really well Ari. having some discussion on the FS threads made for a good exchange of information on how lenses performed or looked or whatever. It was a fun and active way to discuss items and learn about new and old gear - through the direct experience of members - and in a relevant and generally fresh way (either people saying how they had used the gear, or people posting updates on how the gear worked out for them when the got it).

More evidence which makes me think the FS threads should have a system for posting "[sold]" next to completed sales, yet allowing some discussion to continue.

[Leigh]

More evidence which makes me think the FS threads should have a system for posting "[sold]" next to completed sales, yet allowing some discussion to continue.
But Nicholas...

At present there is no discussion allowed at any time.

And of course that's the whole basis of the complaints in this rather long thread.

Someone recently posted a WTB for a Graflex item. I have one such NIB.
Without the dimensions, I don't know if mine will fit his camera.
In any other Forum's classified section I would have asked. Can't do that here.

I could have asked by PM, or given him my dimensions via PM.
But how does that help others who might have similar items or questions?

- Leigh

[Vaughn]

To repeat the forum's reasoning as I understand it -- such discussions in the marketplace might be informative, but are not archived, thus in the long run, such information will be lost. Thus discussing such info in the main forum instead of the marketplace will preserve those discussions...which is the intent of the owner(s) of this forum.

Inadvertent bumping of sale posts thru discussions (about and often not about) the item for sale, just buries the sale threads faster that did not get a bump -- requiring those OPs to bump their posts. In theory, the new guidelines will keep those post on the front page (or near it) longer.

It is all a compromise. Six of one thing, half a dozen of another and 3 pairs of something else...

[sepiareverb]

Just like everything else where someone can get their knickers in a twist. It's not fair to him or you so let's just stop letting it work so everybody can be unoffended. Why not just remove the whole fecking FS/FT/WTB section so everyone can be protected from harm? I still can't understand how asking a question about an item for sale destroys the FS section. Because it is unfairly moved over to the front of the line? Really? Because it places valuable information about the expiration date of some old film or the state of cleaning marks on some lens into a non-permanent knowledge base? Questions are a part of a sale. They are a part of a purchase. Why the moderators are required to have their fingers or tongues involved in simple questions about condition or suitability is far beyond me. If you have posted an item for sale and it gets buried because people are more interested in something else that is for sale why is that a problem for everyone? That's how it goes, maybe your Wooden 4x5 film holders without dark slides aren't the cats pajamas.

Selling is not always easy or pleasant. People have questions. Why is this a problem? Just charge a dollar for every ad and leave us to our own unruly devices. If you think having chatter on an ad is a problem place your ad and lock the thread. If this is still a untenable hardship get the feck out.

Bob - sick of hearing how awful normal commerce intruding on these precious classifieds is - OMFG already.

[BrianShaw]

Hey Bob. How much do you want for those film holders?

[sepiareverb]

Hey Bob. How much do you want for those film holders?

How many times do we have to tell you? NO DISCUSSION IN A CLASSIFIEDS THREAD! This should be discussed in the relevant forum.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?133743-4x5-Wooden-Holders-without-Darkslides-Value&p=1354421#post1354421

[BrianShaw]

Oh sorry. I'll send a PM. Or maybe open a conversation.

PM sent.

[sepiareverb]

I've not gotten your PM yet Brian, but I have reserved the holders for you.

[stawastawa]

I think the non-archival quality of discussions in the FS forums (which may be informative) is a good point.

My point though is that the FS forum can be an interesting and 'presently active' information place. Where 'in the moment' information was shared, that was interesting and informative (I had more fun reading through active FS chatter and adding things to my wish-list than I do going through old reviews. I can look at reviews when I get serious about buying something).

I miss the fun reading and learning that happened there. Fun discussion wasn't always to be had in the darkroom, cameras, lenses sub-forums.

As for bumping . . . tell people to sort the listings as they want = solution via user gumption.
(aka leave the sorting default as the current 'date posted', and those who like to see discussion can change to 'last post')

(PS, thanks for the chuckle bryan and bob)

[sepiareverb]

Even discussion in the appropriate forum seems to be potentially non-archival....

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?133743-4x5-Wooden-Holders-without-Darkslides-Value&p=1354421#post1354421

Which is a shame because both Brian's last and my last response gave me a chuckle.

[sepiareverb]

And I would add that "historical" asking and sales prices of items in various conditions (with such condition clarified via questions and answers) could be at least equally valuable in several years time as what developing times are best for Efke 50 in Microdol-X 1:1.

[BrianShaw]

What a heavy-handed action! Moving it would have been more rationale, I think.

I was laughing at myself too Bob.

[sepiareverb]

Well shame on us. This is serious business. Well not business, definitely not business, this is information. Serious information we've now contaminated with levity.

[sepiareverb]

Oh dear me what have I done.

[Dan Fromm]

Y'know, if keeping information that isn't going to be archived off the forum is worth doing, its worth doing well. And that means purging all of the incorrect nonsense that's posted here. Go to it, moderators, its what you seem to want.

[stawastawa]

astute observation

I think purging is impractical, so curating information onto the more static LF homepage might be a better option.

Y'know, if keeping information that isn't going to be archived off the forum is worth doing, its worth doing well. And that means purging all of the incorrect nonsense that's posted here. Go to it, moderators, its what you seem to want.

[Leigh]

I think the non-archival quality of discussions in the FS forums (which may be informative) is a good point.
And that's very much as it should be.

If comments relate specifically to the FS/WTB item, then deleting the entire thread is totally appropriate.

Comments related to an unspecified example of a product should certainly be in other relevant fora.

- Leigh

[Dan Fromm]

Oh, come on. The LF homepage needs a good purge too. No half measures!

[BrianShaw]

It's Friday night and the grumpy old men have no place better to be than on the Internet!


Hey... What am I doing here?????

[Dan Fromm]

It's Friday night and the grumpy old men have no place better to be than on the Internet!


Hey... What am I doing here?????

You're watching a tail wag its dog.

[AnzaRunner]

I agree with Leigh. In bad taste.

You may find a sense of humor to be in bad taste, but that is your subjective opinion. I would like to know which exact Forsale Ad rule I broke to warrant deleting my post? If they are deleted based on a matter of opinion, we have a problem because the moderators are not abiding by the rules they have established. Look at this like a lawyer. Which For Sale Ad rule did I break?

[Tin Can]

It's Midnight at the Oasis, Maria Muldaur is singing that right now to me.

If you want a legal battle do it next Tuesday AM.

Please!

[rdenney]

You may find a sense of humor to be in bad taste, but that is your subjective opinion. I would like to know which exact Forsale Ad rule I broke to warrant deleting my post? If they are deleted based on a matter of opinion, we have a problem because the moderators are not abiding by the rules they have established. Look at this like a lawyer. Which For Sale Ad rule did I break?

I wasn't the one who deleted your ad, but the decisions of the moderators are final.

Your insistence on having an explicit rule violation to justify what was clearly intended to antagonize the mods is exactly the point I have made several times in this thread. When we try to leave the rules loose, people cry crocodile tears when we delete something as a matter of discretion, demanding that we have an explicit rule to justify the deletion. Please try again, but without the chip on the shoulder.

Rick "thank you" Denney

[Roger Thoms]

Your post was rude, review the general usage guidelines.

Roger

[AnzaRunner]

Your post was rude, review the general usage guidelines.

Roger

this is just sad. Seriously, is this what this forum has become? This just proves be point about the complete lack of community as a result of the overmoderation of this forum.

[Jim Graves]

+1

I just don't feel welcome here.

Charley

+ 4 (or more)

[sepiareverb]

Glad to see this back in the New Posts search. The new rules are still not helping community grow, they're hindering it.

[Dan Fromm]

this is just sad. Seriously, is this what this forum has become? This just proves be point about the complete lack of community as a result of the overmoderation of this forum.

Eh? Wot? How did you, a guest, manage to post in the for sale forum? And how did you manage to post here?

[Dan Fromm]

Glad to see this back in the New Posts search. The new rules are still not helping community grow, they're hindering it.

Are you sure? Have you measured?

I've noticed that there seem to be fewer posters in our little echo chamber, but that seems to be the case for every photography bulletin board I follow. Since the others don't use our highly restrictive community killing rules they must have their own community killing rules. Or perhaps the general decline of film is catching up will us and them alike.

[sepiareverb]

Are you sure? Have you measured?

I am a master of the Sunny 16, measuring is for the unexperienced.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I am a master of the Sunny 16, measuring is for the unexperienced.

With respect, do you travel the globe? For me the Sunny 16 is Sunny 11 in London, and Sunny 22 in Trinad, and besides it never works in difficult situations.

Of course, your attention might be superior to my own. Okay?
.

[Tin Can]

It's all my fault. Today I silently thought, 'Wow no bitching for 2 weeks!'

No Mods for 2 weeks.

No comments possible in FS by programming.

I was happy for 13 seconds...

[Corran]

Less bitching more photos...:cool:
Actually I need to list some things for sale. Doubt they'll sell here. We'll see.

[Tin Can]

11x14 film holders are in demand.


Less bitching more photos...:cool:
Actually I need to list some things for sale. Doubt they'll sell here. We'll see.

[Dan Fromm]

Less bitching more photos...:cool:
Actually I need to list some things for sale. Doubt they'll sell here. We'll see.

How can you doubt that your things will sell? This piddling little bulletin board is the only web site in the universe where LF equipment can be offered for sale. That's why grumblers about the for sale section's rules are so upset. Its here or nowhere. They don't like the lack of alternatives.

[Corran]

Okay

[Tin Can]

Dan.



Okay

[Leszek Vogt]

A pitty, I've ran out of popcorn.:(

Les

[neil poulsen]

I like the new format. In particular, it's much better than the previous rules. They made moderator intervention almost a certainty. This new format dramatically cuts down the need for moderation. Not to say, of course, that moderation is a negative. More to say that, better to have a system that runs itself.

As a seller who usually begins by shooting high (in sales price), the new system pressures me to begin with a more realistic sales price. Listings get the most visibility, when they're still on the first page. Beginning with a high sales price pretty much throws that advantage away. I think that we have to admit, in this regard, the new format is more favorable towards shoppers.

[Leigh]

I think that we have to admit, in this regard, the new format is more favorable towards shoppers.
The current rules just prove that the management cares absolutely nothing about buyers or sellers.
They correct a contrived problem that does not exist in reality.

There were occasions in recent weeks when I could have added requested information to FS/WTB threads.
This would have benefited both the seller and the prospective buyer.

Since I was unable to post the information, everybody lost out.

- Leigh

[sepiareverb]

...
They correct a contrived problem that does not exist in reality...

- Leigh

Perfectly stated, thank you.

[c.d.ewen]

Since I was unable to post the information, everybody lost out.
- Leigh

+1

Charley

[Dan Fromm]

There were occasions in recent weeks when I could have added requested information to FS/WTB threads.
This would have benefited both the seller and the prospective buyer.

Since I was unable to post the information, everybody lost out.

- Leigh

Leigh, you're getting inflexible or unimaginative in your old age.

Here http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?134605-Computars-Apo-Kyvytars-puffery-and-confusion-how-quickly-we-forget is how to do it.

[IanG]

+2 totally agree.

Ian

[jnantz]

i think this website is run by a group alligned with the illuminati.
they are turning us into sheep, robbing us of our rights. their new world order
is one where people aren't allowed to bump, badger, harass or post nonsense in want/sell ads,
and to think they suggest it is just to cut down on the alleged 9 out of 10 site complaints ( related to the classifides )
pretty soon they will insist this isn't a pay-site, and the classifides section isn't the main function of the website.
i'm about to ask for a refund.

[Ralph Barker]

i think this website is run by a group alligned with the illuminati.
they are turning us into sheep, robbing us of our rights. their new world order
is one where people aren't allowed to bump, badger, harass or post nonsense in want/sell ads,
and to think they suggest it is just to cut down on the alleged 9 out of 10 site complaints ( related to the classifides )
pretty soon they will insist this isn't a pay-site, and the classifides section isn't the main function of the website.
i'm about to ask for a refund.

Chuckle.

Even worse, the illuminati might even mention that they aren't being paid for all the extra work that a few want them to do. ;)

[Tin Can]

No good deed goes unpunished. :(

[fishbulb]

I will add my two cents: it's a pain to NOT be able to edit your for sale posts when things sell.

For example, I post three lenses for sale. Two of them sell. But all three are still listed, in the title and body of the post. Guess which lenses I keep getting PM's about? The ones that already sold! Sure, I can write a post at the bottom that they have sold, but no one reads that.

Combine that with draconian limits on storage of PM's, my PM box keeps getting filled up. Here, let me give you 50 cents so you can afford to give me 500x more storage space for PM's.

That combined with no bumping, no comments or questions from users, no editing, no title changes... why do you even have a "for sale" forum at all?

Not that I care that much personally; I've given up on large format film due to time constraints.

But, it HAS been interesting watching this site change as the moderators have put it into a stranglehold. Will they squeeze all the life out of it in the coming years? Stay tuned.

[RichSBV]

The current rules just prove that the management cares absolutely nothing about buyers or sellers.
They correct a contrived problem that does not exist in reality.

There were occasions in recent weeks when I could have added requested information to FS/WTB threads.
This would have benefited both the seller and the prospective buyer.

Since I was unable to post the information, everybody lost out.

- Leigh

I was going to give you a thumbs up or +3 but then remembered that it wouldn't count because my post count isn't high enough... :eek: (I do read here quite a bit)

The mods stated that they wanted a "craigslist" instead of a friendly community yard sale type FS forum. They got it no matter how people really feel about it. Maybe more of us should have gotten involved with the original "discussion" about the changes since on any forum you can count on 75% of vocal users will blindly and enthusiastically support any mod changes.

It's done, most don't like it and we have to live with it....

I would personally love to see all the dissidents get together to start a new LF forum, with all of them being mods. What a thing to follow :p

[rdenney]

The current rules just prove that the management cares absolutely nothing about buyers or sellers.
They correct a contrived problem that does not exist in reality.

There were occasions in recent weeks when I could have added requested information to FS/WTB threads.
This would have benefited both the seller and the prospective buyer.

Since I was unable to post the information, everybody lost out.

- Leigh
Leigh,

Did you provide that information to the seller using PM or email?

Rick "wondering" Denney

[Pfsor]

I would personally love to see all the dissidents get together to start a new LF forum, with all of them being mods. What a thing to follow :p


Did you mean something like this? - https://forum.on.photography/

[Leigh]

Leigh,
Did you provide that information to the seller using PM or email?
Rick "wondering" Denney
Probably not.

What would I accomplish by doing so?

My intent was to provide information TO THE COMMUNITY, whatever that is.

We can all communicate in private, using a public list of email addresses.
What does that accomplish? And how much time would it take?

As I have said previously, and will repeat with my dying breath...
There was NO problem that required correction in the first place.

I'm a mod at PracticalMahinist.com, the largest machine-focused site in the world, with more than 1.1 million unique visitors each month.
We have separate FS, WTB and related sections due to the volume of traffic.
We have no such encumbering and inconveniencing rules, and we have no issues.

Treat the members like adults, and ... surprise surprise ... they act like adults.

- Leigh

[Corran]

We've already had a couple of threads posted in the public forums to address "issues" with listed items (real or perceived).

I'm not sure that engenders good feelings in the community, making a thread to "correct the record" on listed items. Are we always to assume it was an honest mistake, or is there an element of accusation there? Yes I am aware the same could be said to a reply on the listing, but my personal opinion is that it is worse to make a thread specifically to call out a seller/listing.

I have seen items described incorrectly or incompletely. I do not PM the seller - because they may not care or want to add information / correct things, and so are they going to be argumentative? Or if they don't correct it, and it's critical, do I call them out and be the "bad guy?" Of course this depends on the situation. Some things are harmless. Even before the new rules I once corrected someone describing what they had in the thread and was ignored - but at least potential buyers who didn't know, would know, right?

[BrianShaw]

From one Briano/Bryan to another... Amen brother!

[Dan Fromm]

Interesting. So what's important here is selling, not exchanging ideas and helping each other. What a pack of <insert the insult that will hurt you the most>.

[Pfsor]

Interesting. So what's important here is selling, not exchanging ideas and helping each other. What a pack of <insert the insult that will hurt you the most>.

Dan, isn't selling and buying helping each other? Isn't free commenting on FS objects exchanging ideas? You argumentation ad absurdum doesn't work.

[Corran]

Interesting. So what's important here is selling, not exchanging ideas and helping each other. What a pack of <insert the insult that will hurt you the most>.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-c1X9-H1LuJA/TdBEGvo9BpI/AAAAAAAABg4/jN2ng54dY9M/w1200-h630-p-nu/its-time-to-stop-posting-cat-cats-kitten-kitty-pic-picture-funny-lolcat-cute-fun-lovely-photo-images.jpg

[Jac@stafford.net]

It is good that nobody accepts my opinion. I would shitcan the free FS section. Outsource to a pay as you go thing. It works for the Leica forum (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/classifieds/).
.

[IanG]

There was a time before the gross over Moderation when buying/selling here was easy, friendly and benefited all. Sure we had warnings if the seller was misleading, and some would point out the real bargains, that's what Forums are about. .

Now we have moderators making snide remarks in almost all their replies you know who you are as only you do it, no name needed, but it's highly offensive and totally against the ethos of this forum.

Lets get back to being helpful, friendly etc, if that Moderator doesn't like it he should leave moderation to others.

Ian

[Dan Fromm]

Dan, isn't selling and buying helping each other? Isn't free commenting on FS objects exchanging ideas? You argumentation ad absurdum doesn't work.

Wrong. When I sell photographic equipment, I sell it to benefit me, not the buyer. You're defending bad behavior. It must please you.

As for commenting on FS items, I've been doing it in the main forums.

[Pfsor]

Wrong. When I sell photographic equipment, I sell it to benefit me, not the buyer. You're defending bad behavior. It must please you.

As for commenting on FS items, I've been doing it in the main forums.

Wrong again, Dan. When you sell something, the buyer benefits from it also, otherwise he would not buy it. Stop being self-righteous - ad absurdum. And commenting should be done where the flow is , not on the other side of the village.

[Dan Fromm]

Wrong again, Dan. When you sell something, the buyer benefits from it also, otherwise he would not buy it. Stop being self-righteous - ad absurdum. And commenting should be done where the flow is , not on the other side of the village.

Thanks for crediting me with good motives. You're mistaken. I offer gear for sale when I think that selling it will be good for me. I understand that buyers buy when buying will improve their situations, but I don't offer for items for sale out of concern for buyers welfare. I'm entirely selfish.

If you seriously think that the for sale forum is intended for exchange of information, you're unhinged. The for sale forum provides a venue for people who want to move equipment. The other forums are for serious discussions about equipment and technique.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Dan Fromm is honest, clear-headed, a good Capitalist.

His arrogance and aggressive posture is a bit disappointing. So...

I am financially fit for the rest of my life. Maybe I'll dump a huge lot of gear here for peanuts. One purchaser per item. Of course, Dan cannot purchase.

In the future, in order to counter innuendo, I will ask Dan to post images supporting his assertions or bedamned.

[Pfsor]

Thanks for crediting me with good motives. You're mistaken. I offer gear for sale when I think that selling it will be good for me. I understand that buyers buy when buying will improve their situations, but I don't offer for items for sale out of concern for buyers welfare. I'm entirely selfish.

If you seriously think that the for sale forum is intended for exchange of information, you're unhinged. The for sale forum provides a venue for people who want to move equipment. The other forums are for serious discussions about equipment and technique.

You might be selfishly thinking of yourself only when selling equipment, the buyer thinks of his own needs and all are happy. The world doesn't turn around you only. As for the the exchange of information - I was reading the FS section mostly if not only for that and learnt so about equipment I didn't know. As I said - it's where the flow is, not on the other side of the village that FS items should be freely commented.
As for being unhinged - do you need to insult when you lack arguments?

[seabee1999]

Thanks for crediting me with good motives. You're mistaken. I offer gear for sale when I think that selling it will be good for me. I understand that buyers buy when buying will improve their situations, but I don't offer for items for sale out of concern for buyers welfare. I'm entirely selfish.

Although perhaps true, this is probably one of the most stubborn and pigheaded responses I've ever read on this forum about buying and selling things (just to make a point, SHM on this). If you were to truely follow your selfish logic to its end, your final motivation for moving your unused, undesired gear would be to destroy it so no one but yourself would benefit from what you've owned.

Very Respectfully,
Dave

[BrianShaw]

What has happened to this place...

[Jim Graves]

Can we refrain from our own personal motivations and our opinions about those and return to the original PROBLEM of over-moderation?

'

[Darren Kruger]

I find the new rules for the FS section fine. I am a little disappointed at the number of replies to this thread in comparison to the rest of the sub-forums I subscribe to here.

As a reminder to all involved, you can add people to your ignore list and never see any of their posts again. When looking at a post, click on their username on the left to go to their profile page. On that page on the left side there is an option to add them to your ignore list.

-Darren

[fishbulb]

What has happened to this place...

Over-moderation / cronyism is what happened to this place. It slowly becomes an "us vs. them" mentality. Mods vs. plebs.

Mark my words, you'll see more rules, bans, lock-downs of site features, deleting of posts etc. Users will leave, usually the most helpful ones first, and then the unhelpful ones quit angrily or are banned.

Eventually all that's left is a small group of mods and sycophants in an echo chamber.

I moderate a few other forums (mostly automotive related), and have been a moderator on websites and chatrooms going back to the mid 1990s.

Seen it before, will see it again. Internet communities thrive when run democratically - i.e. with actual voting, not just "input" then the mods decide. Autocracy destroys online communities slowly, like a cavity eating a tooth.

[BrianShaw]

... And more. We're seeing more canibalism than I ever remember: members eating other members. Makes some of the old flame wars seem rather mild in hindsight.

[Kirk Gittings]

... And more. We're seeing more canibalism than I ever remember: members eating other members. Makes some of the old flame wars seem rather mild in hindsight.

Really? Not even close IMHO.

[Dan Fromm]

Dan Fromm is honest, clear-headed, a good Capitalist.

His arrogance and aggressive posture is a bit disappointing. So...

Clear and firm, that's the ticket. Would you prefer weasel words?

[Leigh]

Over-moderation / cronyism is what happened to this place.
Eventually all that's left is a small group of mods and sycophants in an echo chamber.

I moderate a few other forums (mostly automotive related), and have been a moderator on websites and chatrooms going back to the mid 1990s.

Seen it before, will see it again. Internet communities thrive when run democratically - i.e. with actual voting, not just "input" then the mods decide. Autocracy destroys online communities slowly, like a cavity eating a tooth.
I too function as a moderator, as previously mentioned.

And I totally agree with your assessment and prediction.

- Leigh

[BrianShaw]

Really? Not even close IMHO.

Okay, maybe I was exaggerating on that point.

[Dan Fromm]

Can we refrain from our own personal motivations and our opinions about those and return to the original PROBLEM of over-moderation?

'

Jim, the problem isn't over-moderation, its people who complain about rules in a forum that has little to do with this site's purpose.

I'm sorry that my comments on why I sell bothered you. They were in response to an earlier post. I suppose I could have said that when I sell photographic equipment I'm not an altruist. As an economist, I'm dispose to think that sellers in general aren't altruists but since this is a statement about how people behave I could well be mistaken.

[Jim Graves]

Dan ... I thought your post was fine.

If "over-moderation" is not the right term ... maybe "over-control" is.

It seems like a few are disconcerted and suddenly "fixes" are required.

If the current set of restrictions were the first we'd seen I wouldn't be here writing. The latest is just that ... the latest ... in what seems to be an ever increasing ratcheting down ... for no good reason.

[rdenney]

I think we have to recognize that the moderation of the for-sale forum isn't much different than it ever was, though the rules for that forum have indeed changed over the years.

Here's what used to happen: People complained with other people posted comments in the threads, and asked us to delete those comments. It was worse if the transaction resulted in problems, when they wanted to air their grievances in those threads, resulting in heated arguments and accusations leveled at the mods of either squelching it or allowing it or both, depending on whose ox was being gored. The Advisories forum was our answer to that, providing a place for people to discuss these issues (positive and negative) outside the for-sale forum. Those issues have greatly diminished as a result.

People, particularly those who had zero intention of actually buying the thing, used to challenge the seller's price. This happened routinely, and caused a great deal of complaining. One of the chief complainers is one of our most famous laissez-faire departees, near as I can remember. We prohibited such as being de facto rude quite a ffew years ago, before I was a mod, but the temptation to correct an unrealistic price remains seductive.

Then we attracted more people who saw their role on this forum primarily as a seller of stuff, and they know that bumping is how they keep an item at the top of the list. But there's only room for a few at the top of the list, so there was a core of sellers would would try to out-bump each other. This utterly crowded out those who didn't want to play that game, and just wanted to occasionally sell something to their friends on the forum. Some of the bumpers got around that by posting vacuous statements, or getting friends to. We could have a forum where the same 20 listings dominate Page One forever, with 100 people trying to be one of those 20, but we decided, popularly with more folks here than some of you might realize, to eliminate bumping. First, we did it by rule, but that didn't work. Now, we have combined that solution with the next problem's solution.

People used to get into such extended discussions about equipment in for-sale forums that the listing itself was lost in the discussion. People complained about that consistently, and I mean consistently. We've tried many formulas to control that urge, all of which were unsuccessful until the most recent one. We have to admit that whatever the motive, the argument that the intent was the good of the community is hard to prove. Clearly, some habitual commenters simply liked to opine about stuff. I've done that enough myself to know the symptoms. But whose job is it to correct some perceived flaw or inadequacy in a sales listing? We have to admit that the commenters were not infallible, and often enough that supplemental information proved to be incorrect or as misleading as what it purported to clarify. Certainly, there are many of good will who want the sales forum to be like a chat around the water cooler, but they were outnumbered, or at least out-complained, by those who really didn't want it to be that at all.

We used to get many, many complaints about those who were clearly operating a store, when our guidelines prohibited dealers. We corrected that by opening the sales forum up to small dealers, but requiring them to act more like individuals rather than dealers.

We remain open to threads like this, where a few people pillory the moderators, making the most negative possible interpretation of what they perceive, and then accuse the mods of making snarky remarks when we refute their conclusions with as much humor as we can muster. So, we are not allowed to actually participate in the forum in the way that many regular members routinely do? Or is saying it that way also snarky? Threads like these have resulted in changes in this forum over the years, often in the direction our most thoughtful members suggested. For example, there have been a couple of threads in the Lounge recently that would have been closed with many deletions in the not-too-distant past that we let ride because they remained cordial. Thank you, by the way, for keeping them cordial.

We used to have people on this forum who would lapse into manic rants and rages over sales transactions, and in some cases threaten legal action. Some of these people called moderators on the phone to berate them in person. One guy created a Craigslist ad in another city offering to sell one of my valuable musical instruments for pennies, with my home phone number shown. Please do not believe that the moderators only dish it out. In fact, the moderators try very hard to be as open as possible, and this thread is evidence of that. Few or none of these concerned what the mods did, but what they perceived the mods allowed others to do.

I participate in many forums, and have moderated a few. This forum by far allows people to air their grievances concerning moderation, and by far writes and applies its rules the most consistently. In most forums, the mods just delete without explanation to the deletees. We heard you when you complained that deletions were not well enough explained, and we have worked on that. The sorts of behaviors above would result in banning-without-recourse on many forums. In fact, on all the forums in which I participate. We try hard to explain the reasoning behind our moderation, but those who disagree with something we've done don't always accept those explanations in the good faith we intend. In other forums, that problem is avoided: There are rarely if ever any explanations. Some seem to equate having no rules with being democratic, and in the classical definition of the term (i.e., mob rule), perhaps that is true. But the most successful forum in which I participate is at best described as a benevolent dictatorship, which ranges between flame wars filled with ad hominem attacks to people suddenly having the word "banned" appear under their name, with no evidence of the reason why, and with any questioning of it certain to have the same result. One forum that operates this way is certainly the largest forum in the world on its particular topic, and larger than us by orders of magnitude.

I have a pretty thick skin and usually can ignore insults, and usually I assume they are intended in good humor even when few others would. But occasionally someone gets past my defenses and they get the response they so clearly wanted to get, and then use it against me, accusing me of being adversarial with the members. Before I was a mod, I was quite a bit more adversarial than I am now, yet nobody seemed to mind, and it didn't prevent them from saying what a worthy fellow I was when I agreed to become a mod.

We have to recognize that people are people, with good and bad qualities, some of which are two sides of the same coin. We can take the bad with the good, and believe me, the mods do that more than some of you might realize. Every person who is a moderator was a long-time and respected member here, but becoming a moderator makes us less able to participate. When I became a moderator, one person who I respect deeply suggested that it was a good thing, because maybe as a mod I would post less often. Oooookaaaaay.

By the way, when I became a moderator, one of the old hands on the moderating staff at the time was pretty adamant that the only proper thing to do with the for-sale forum was to get rid of it. None of the current mods hold that view.

Rick "who seems to have a better memory than some about 'the good old days'" Denney

[stawastawa]

I hope not Leigh and Fishbulb....


And I totally agree with your assessment and prediction.
- Leigh

thank you for sharing more words on this Rick, Always nice to see more of the picture and context.

I think we have to recognize that the moderation of the for-sale forum isn't much different than it ever was, though the rules for that forum have indeed changed over the years.

Here's what used to happen: ...


I'm hopeful for more good discussions across the forum in the future, and to settling into the way things are now.

[Grumium]

Rick,

Thanks for providing an insight into the reasoning. Unfortunately, I am still of the opinion that the changes are a tad too restrictive and don't turn this part of the otherwise great forum to the better. vBulletin allows for blocking a thread for a certain amount of time before the original poster is allowed to reply (read: bump the thread). For example the German dslr-forum.de is making good use of this. There is no discussion in a thread (as only the TO is able to respond) and bumping is limited to once per week.

The big advantage for the seller is to adjust the price to the demand (or reality) if necessary and to resurface the offer at the same time. Now, you just re-issue the same offer as a new one, "delete" the old one, which is a waste of time and lacks transparency (history) for a potential buyer.

If you visit the dslr-forum.de you may also take a look at how they handle (declare) "sold" items. This could be another area for improvement.

BR

[sepiareverb]

I just sold a bunch of 810 film holders on apug. Didn't even consider listing them here. The radiation is working, the tumor of FS is shrinking.

[goamules]

And for the Moderator that says "controlling bumping was sooooo harrrrrddddd.....it took all my tiiiiimmmeee...." Um, what is a moderator supposed to do? Sit on high dispensing their wisdom in occasional witty, patronizing posts? Or to quietly moderate behind the scenes? I moderate the Collodion.com forum, and you'd barely know it. And I don't post long lectures about how hard my job is to "school" members.

And it may be just me, but it seems there is MORE work for the moderators now, than before. A quick check of the For Sale a min ago:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5172/29562666360_5367d6795f_o.jpg

Tell you what, and I say again: my idea is to let democracy rein. Give moderation abilities to the forum senior members, all of them. At least for the For Sale section. Let US decide what is excessive bumping. Rather than you volunteering for moderation, then threatening to shut down the For Sale section any time anyone complains. Who gave you that decision authority? Or give ME the moderation of the For Sale forum, and I'll do it, if you put it back how it was.

Since that time (2016) I think I've only sold 2-3 lenses here. Each of those times has been a frustration due to "rule meisters" that block, delete, and admonish you every step of the way. I posted an exotic back in January, following all the rules. Today, 2.5 months later I wanted to "bump" it with "now accepting offers". Guess what? 2.3 minutes later the admin deleted the post saying "broke FS rule". I swear, if he's got so much time to memorize and enforce every infraction (have you ever READ all 6 pages of the for sale rules? Building the next manned launch vehicle is easier), you'd think he could elaborate on WHAT, EXACTLY I did wrong.

I don't know about the remaining members, but when I check in here it appears there are 4-5 active posters....compared to a vibrant, energetic forum of 5 years ago.

[goamules]

I'm trying to offer some things for sale for those few LF photographers out there. Maybe we can have a short version of just the facts, rather than the "white paper" version of hundreds of words? Shoot, I can't even FIND the rules again, every time I look. Um....you'd think you could put it at the top of the FS section as sticky, like all other forums do?

It's so difficult here to try to read pages of rules and figure out:
- Can I bump my for sale post, ever? I thought the rule was every 30 days, but that's going by memory.
- What is the amount I can lower my price by? I know there is some rule of it must be xxx%, but again....where is that rule written?
- Is uploading a new picture of the item, a week later, after getting PM'd questions, against the rules?
- Do you REALLy want things sold here, or is this remnant of the site just for a few admins that just like enforcing rules?

[Oren Grad]

Price changes may be made through an additional post, but no more often than every 7 days. This is a per-thread rule, not a per-item rule. For example, if you post a thread with 7 items, you may not post a price change for item #1 on one day, a price change for item #2 on the next day, item #3 on the third day, etc. You must include any desired price changes within a single update post, made no more frequently than every 7 days. Price changes must be a minimum of 10% or $10, whichever is greater.

When ALL items in a listing have sold or have been withdrawn, a post saying so may be added immediately prior to closing the thread.

NO OTHER BUMPS ARE ALLOWED.

Please enter descriptive text and pictures within 30 minutes of starting the thread, using as many posts as needed for the amount of text and number of pictures in your description. After 30 minutes, any updates other than price adjustments or closure of the thread must be made via edits to the initial posts. This includes, but is not limited to, the following types of change:


Changes in item description.
Changes in attached photographs.
Addition of "or best offer".
Changes in payment or shipping terms.
"Payment pending" notices.
Notices that some of the items in a listing have sold or have been withdrawn.

If edits are made to correct errors in identification of the item(s) being sold, the moderators can assist with any corresponding changes required to the thread title.
A member may start no more than three FS/FT threads per day.

If an item has not sold in 30 days, the seller may close that thread and post the FS listing again. It is recommended that the seller include the results of any discussion about the original thread to avoid repeating them in the new thread.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This isn't rocket science. And these rules have been in effect for four years. So if you're serious about selling then yes, you absolutely should know the rules inside out by now. But if you don't, then ASK. Many members have done that, and we're happy to help. But this "I can't be bothered so I'm just going to post whatever I want and if I get called on it I'm going to throw another public tantrum rather than PM the moderators to find out what the problem is" schtick gets really old.

We don't "want or not want" things to be sold here. For the umpteenth time: we're not running a business, and we're not competing with anybody. Members who find the FS subforum useful are welcome to use it; those who don't are welcome to seek other sales venues that are more to their taste.

[c.d.ewen]

I don't know about the remaining members, but when I check in here it appears there are 4-5 active posters....compared to a vibrant, energetic forum of 5 years ago.

Agreed. Used to be a good place to learn and share. Now, even Jim Galli gets banned.

Charley

[paulbarden]

Agreed. Used to be a good place to learn and share. Now, even Jim Galli gets banned.

Charley

Jim Galli has been banned from the forum? When/why did that happen??

[Andrew Plume]

Well Paul..................

I've seen a post from him and he (now) only intends to post on 'Photrio' and not on here - this is a guy who has significantly contributed on here, to put it mildley, so I'm sure that I'm not the only one who would appreciate some more info..............?

Andrew

[Andrew Plume]

I'm trying to offer some things for sale for those few LF photographers out there. Maybe we can have a short version of just the facts, rather than the "white paper" version of hundreds of words? Shoot, I can't even FIND the rules again, every time I look. Um....you'd think you could put it at the top of the FS section as sticky, like all other forums do?

It's so difficult here to try to read pages of rules and figure out:
- Can I bump my for sale post, ever? I thought the rule was every 30 days, but that's going by memory.
- What is the amount I can lower my price by? I know there is some rule of it must be xxx%, but again....where is that rule written?
- Is uploading a new picture of the item, a week later, after getting PM'd questions, against the rules?
- Do you REALLy want things sold here, or is this remnant of the site just for a few admins that just like enforcing rules?


WELL, I'M definitely with Garrett on this (as I usually am), there seems to have been an unnecessary pettiness (to put it as pleasantly as is possible) on here re 'FS' ads - I have NOW STOPPED listing any lenses - why ? I ran into Oren on more than one instance in deleting my Posts, I couldn't for the life of me understood the logic and so after a couple of instances of this happening, I'm no longer bothering and the more
members on here that feel the same will end up pretty well destroying the 'FS' side of what used to be (and albeit can still be) a fantastic Forum and Resource

regards to all

Andrew

[Dan Fromm]

Well Paul..................

I've seen a post from him and he (now) only intends to post on 'Photrio' and not on here - this is a guy who has significantly contributed on here, to put it mildley, so I'm sure that I'm not the only one who would appreciate some more info..............?

Andrew

Andrew, Jiim is hardly posting there, except to sell. He and I haven't communicated directly for a while, but I think he's moving on. Retired, finally, and getting deeper into old cars.

[Andrew Plume]

Thx Dan, yes you're probably spot on but there's 'the ban issue' which I deliberately avoided mentioning

regards to you, as an invaluable Member on here and stay safe etc etc

Andrew

[goamules]

WELL, I'M definitely with Garrett on this (as I usually am), there seems to have been an unnecessary pettiness (to put it as pleasantly as is possible) on here re 'FS' ads - I have NOW STOPPED listing any lenses - why ? I ran into Oren on more than one instance in deleting my Posts, I couldn't for the life of me understood the logic and so after a couple of instances of this happening, I'm no longer bothering and the more
members on here that feel the same will end up pretty well destroying the 'FS' side of what used to be (and albeit can still be) a fantastic Forum and Resource

regards to all

Andrew

You are a gentleman and a scholar. I was taking my wife to your great country for our 30 yr anniversary this year, and would have loved to have met up. Alas, the virus has postponed that. But hope to try again soon. Always nice comments and content from you, Andrew.

[goamules]

[I]...I'm going to throw another public tantrum rather than PM the moderators to find out what the problem is" schtick gets really old.....

Works both ways bud. I don't think you do a lot of PMing to explain my transgressions. You delete first, ask questions later. It seems admonishment in public is preferred, like above. Good moderation!

Rhetorical questions: What drove the members away from this forum? For sale adds that broke some back room decisions of rules, that no members got to vote on? Or excessive moderation vehemence enforcing said rules? Did activity die out about 2016 when these rules were enacted? No need to answer.

[Dan Fromm]

Rhetorical questions: What drove the members away from this forum? For sale adds that broke some back room decisions of rules, that no members got to vote on? Or excessive moderation vehemence enforcing said rules? Did activity die out about 2016 when these rules were enacted? No need to answer.

Garrett, its time for a cold shower.

Please remember that QT Luong owns this forum, pays its expenses and sets the rules. Members don't own it, don't pay its bills and don't set the rules. I'm grateful to QT. You should be too.

[Jody_S]

Internet forums rise and fall, come and go. Nothing is forever, nothing can stay frozen in time. For better or worse this forum has changed since I started coming here, and will continue to change after I leave. Life is too short to point fingers and accuse other people of ruining a forum, especially one as stable and long-lived as this one, and remarkably free of spam and obnoxious trolling. I am grateful for what I have learned here, for the people who keep it running and pay the bills, and no I don't bother listing a lot of things for sale here because if the for-sale forum isn't an important part of the community, I would just as soon try to get more money on fleabay.

[Vaughn]

The current rule exist because the old rules created far too many problems and too much work for the volunteers to want to handle. Far less trouble for them now -- even with the occasional old worn-out complaints that resurface.

[Darren Kruger]

I'm trying to offer some things for sale for those few LF photographers out there. Maybe we can have a short version of just the facts, rather than the "white paper" version of hundreds of words? Shoot, I can't even FIND the rules again, every time I look. Um....you'd think you could put it at the top of the FS section as sticky, like all other forums do?

I looked the other day and found the rules in less than 10 minutes under the FAQ at https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_faq

Where did you look? I did a quick google search and the top result was the thread here titled "Clarification of FS/WTB bumping rules" The last post in that thread was on Feb 28, 2020 by you. https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?152154-Clarification-of-FS-WTB-bumping-rules&p=1539542&viewfull=1#post1539542

It is a little confusing that at the top of the FS forum some of the rules are listed but not all of them. In one of the sticky posts it says "Please read the new guidelines." but doesn't say where those guidelines are. I too would appreciate a sticky post in the FS forum with a link to the rules or that post being the "official" rules.

-Darren

[Oren Grad]

It is a little confusing that at the top of the FS forum some of the rules are listed but not all of them. In one of the sticky posts it says "Please read the new guidelines." but doesn't say where those guidelines are. I too would appreciate a sticky post in the FS forum with a link to the rules or that post being the "official" rules.

Darren, we prefer to minimize the number of sticky posts at the top of the FS subforum so that as many as possible of the threads that show up on the first page of the index are actual member FS threads.

Unfortunately, vBulletin does not allow us to include a link to the guidelines within the text at the top of the FS subforum. However, a while back we did edit the text to include this wording pointing out an easy way to get to the guidelines:

Click on "Usage Guidelines" in the menu bar at the top of the Forum screen.

[Mark Sampson]

This site, and its forum, are about many more things than buying and selling gear. I've both bought and sold items here , but that's not why I show up so regularly.
I'm here because I regularly see wonderful new photos, learn new things about photography. photographers, gear, and life. And occasionally I have something useful to offer (I hope). This forum helps keep my LF flame alive. I do see plenty of interesting things for sale, too, no doubt about that. But if gear transactions are your primary focus, best to remember that there are plenty of places on the web for just that... and that transactions are a small part of "Large Format Photography".

[rdenney]

By the way, nobody has been permanently banned recently except spammers. There was an ugly confrontation over a simple misunderstanding with another mod, and I did impose a cooling off period so we could sort it out without shouting past each other. And we did sort it out and the misunderstanding was resolved (the action in question had already been reversed). The member still decided to become inactive, but that was his choice. He knows we can reactivate him at any time.

I know of no other forum where moderators allow themselves to be challenged the way we do here. Most forums have explicit rules against complaining publicly about the rules or moderator actions. And most of the other forums I frequent give the moderators far more discretion to act on their own judgement rather than explicitly following written guidelines that we adhere to.

There is no perfect model, but we do our best.

Rick “let’s get back to large format” Denney

[Darren Kruger]

However, a while back we did edit the text to include this wording pointing out an easy way to get to the guidelines:

Click on "Usage Guidelines" in the menu bar at the top of the Forum screen.

Staring at me right in the face; I don't know how I missed that. thanks for pointing it out!

-Darren

[Kiwi7475]

Nothing new under the sun but I also feel that the rules are best for the mods but not for the users.

There is a trust in this forum that doesn’t exist in other places. I’ve come to know some of you, and learned from a lot of you, shared the little I know with others here, and I come with the illusion every day that those experiences will continue, and to see what’s new every day. And so when I read “I got a fine lens to sell” I believe it. On eBay I don’t even believe the pictures sometimes (exaggerating somewhat but you get the point).

Selling and buying is a part of the experience of this forum, or it should be, and it feels hampered by the rules in place. I really don’t mind if there were more “bumps” or whatever. It takes me nothing to ignore it if I’m not interested. And I’m not talking from a sellers perspective because I have not sold anything here.

This place is not a business but we all benefit for the experience of buying and selling as we do from the more obscure discussions going on here. I’ve learned things that didn’t know existed from people selling! It’s part of this forum and it should be protected as any other aspect of it. Bring agnostic as in “we’re not for or against” selling/buying is really short minded.

[rdenney]

Please understand that we’ve tried all the standard approaches, including bumping free-for-all. What happened was that a few dominated the sales forum. There was a close (not complete) correlation between those who dominated and those who only seemed to be here to sell stuff. It crowded out the members who participate in discussions first and sell second, and we got lots of complaints.

Sure, it took the mods a lot of time to deal with those issues. But that was the secondary problem. The primary problem was that regular members who just wanted to sell something to people they knew had to get into bumping wars with those whose time here was solely spent in the FS forum. People would hit “New Posts” and the list would be dominated by bumps, and we had many requests to filter out the sales forum. Or, people with no intention of buying engaged in commentary on the sales, much of which was not helpful and about we received many, many complaints. It wasn’t fair, or consistent with the purpose and principles of this forum. Complaints aren’t just work for the mods—they represent an aggrieved party. The old way did not work for many, many of our regular members. Now, when I hit New Posts or other general searches, the posts in the FS forum are actually for new things being offered, and we no longer need to filter out sales posts.

This has all been litigated in the past.

I sometimes think people blame the naturally shrinking market on our sales forum. That’s unfair. Ebay once had a special category for LF equipment. That’s gone, but it’s not because they don’t care, it’s because there are fewer buyers and sellers—too few to justify a category. Yet even now, I can find hundreds of bits for my Sinar cameras there, at prices sellers here would rarely get.

The advantage to our want-ads is that “buying the seller” is a lot easier—sellers who participate have a reputation that can be checked and that has to be upheld. Likewise buyers. But when sellers and buyers have no reputation because they don’t participate except in the sales forum, the model fails and something like eBay provides better protections.

Rick “for new members who weren’t here then” Denney

[Sal Santamaura]

...What drove the members away from this forum?...
In the general case, nothing. Some people moved on because they stopped doing large format photography. In the specific case of those who view this privately funded space as their personal marketing tool, the owner's more restrictive selling rules. Appropriately so.


...Did activity die out about 2016 when these rules were enacted?...
Only activity by those who had been taking advantage of the venue.


...Please remember that QT Luong owns this forum, pays its expenses and sets the rules...Tuan owns it, the moderators (including Tuan) set the rules, Tom Westbrook supports IT matters and Brian Reed donates server space, as well as technical support.


...I'm grateful to QT...I'm grateful to all those people.


...remarkably free of...obnoxious trolling...I disagree. Self-centered complaining about this forum not being eBay-for-free is a most obnoxious form of trolling.


...Selling and buying is a part of the experience of this forum, or it should be...I disagree. Selling and buying ought never have been a part of this forum. But your opinion and my opinion are both irrelevant. Only those of the owner and moderator count.


...it took the mods a lot of time to deal with those issues...And it's again taking moderator time and effort to deal with this "feedback." Were I you, I'd stop engaging in that waste. Ban the whiners from posting complaints for a while. If, when that period ends, they persist, ban them permanently. No loss to the community.


...This has all been litigated in the past...And it'll continue to be a thorn in the forum's side unless and until the trolls are silenced. But it's your volunteer time and energy, so enjoy responding to the same nonsense over and over again. :)

[BrianShaw]

All true. Well stated. Same could be said about Soapbox!

[rdenney]

Sal, you sorta knew what posts in this thread were likely to be about. :)

I don’t mind explaining things to new folks, individually or collectively (that isn’t the same as endless debate with those who won’t change their opinion no matter what—with those we just have to live with—respectful but quiet—disagreement). While this is a private forum, it’s still a member forum and we do take the feedback seriously. We’ve made many changes as a result of that.

We could be a bonsai tree and dwarf ourselves by cutting away anyone who disagrees with anything, or we could be a big tent with no focus, little sense of community, and lots of domineering personal attacks. I have experience with both of those forum extremes. I think we prefer something in between, recognizing that any robust community is heterogeneous but still centered around a common interest. But both extremes pull hard.

Rick “the common interest is large-format photography” Denney

[Sal Santamaura]

All true. Well stated...A very perceptive comment. :)


...Same could be said about Soapbox!Not true. First, there is no Soap Box at this forum. Second, the owner of the forum that does have a Soap Box spends virtually no time moderating it. That relief valve probably takes far less effort from the moderators there than policing political/religious rule-breaking posts absorbs here.


...I don’t mind explaining things to new folks, individually or collectively (that isn’t the same as endless debate with those who won’t change their opinion no matter what...Indeed it isn't the same. And the effort/time you expend -- at least publicly -- appears to be predominantly "debating" with "old" members who exhibit a sense of injured entitlement.


...with those we just have to live with—respectful but quiet—disagreement...You don't have to. You choose to. Your effort/time, your choice. Better you than me. :)

[BrianShaw]

Thanks for the correction. You are correct... the Soapbox is another forum, so no further discussion is warranted in this forum.

But at least the For Sale segment of this forum is clearly photography related!

[rdenney]

...And the effort/time you expend -- at least publicly -- appears to be predominantly "debating" with "old" members who exhibit a sense of injured entitlement.

Yes, sometimes, but with the knowledge that they aren't the only readers. And my latest post, from which you quoted, was in response to a well-reasoned post from a member who joined a little over a year ago, and that's why I explained it again.

Rick "not as old as you...oops, did I say that wrong?" Denney

[Sal Santamaura]

...Rick "not as old as you...oops, did I say that wrong?" DenneyNope, you said that perfectly. In both senses of the word (length of membership here as well as chronological age). I embrace it. :)

[goamules]

I decided to check in on my bump of this post. Looks like pretty reasoned replies, as I hope my complaint was.

As far as content goes, for many years I was a primary poster of suggestions, solutions, praise, and my own LF shots. I did sell too, and I know many of the buyers of my lenses started in LF because of what I posted - both content and lens sales. This forum was an important part of my life for many years. I've made friends and have visited them in many different countries, and they've visited me. I've hosted wetplate workshops, and done demonstrations, and taught many others. I'd estimate 95-98% of my posts were not sales, something that cannot be said for other active seller "members" that predominately are here to sell. New members should look through my posts on the history of many lens types, or my guidance on wetplate photography, my two areas of expertise. People asked a question in my area, I would answer it. I even moderate another photography forum. I didn't need to bump my lenses, because I priced them so low they usually sold within 1 day, often within 1 hour. Long-term members remember those days. I know the LF world has changed too.

I miss those days, and the energy and engagement that we used to have. I was just complaining about what I see is excessive for sale rules. Maybe in those active years from 2016 back they were needed. We did have a lot of dealers and bumping daily (not by me). Perhaps those days are over, and it's time for a rethink was my only goal. I can sell my lens somewhere, but do like selling here, to bona fide LF photographers, not unknown bidders on auction sites.

Just saying....the threat to "ban the complainer" I hope wasn't directed at me.