PDA

View Full Version : Dear god, pie holes are everywhere....sigh



Fred L
20-Sep-2016, 15:19
This is one place I really want to see and photograph but if this crap keeps up, it's lost for years as a place to photograph. I would love to be a volunteer *warden* to keep an eye on people who simple don't deserve to walk this earth. Just let me boot their tires and I'll be happy, they could use a long, dusty walk out to the blacktop.

http://petapixel.com/2016/09/19/vandalism-iconic-racetrack-death-valley-national-park/

jp
20-Sep-2016, 15:32
Negative attention is still attention for these folks. The article probably emboldened them unfortunately.

If I were in charge of enforcing things, I'd pretty pretty unpopular and would probably give littering citations for people tossing cigarette butts in the rain. In my neighborhood before they got to any national parks.

Drew Wiley
20-Sep-2016, 15:46
Overall, it was probably worse before. When I was there fifty years ago there were jeep tracks and "donuts" everywhere, which made it almost impossible to get
an unblemished picture unless you were the first to arrive after a heavy rain season. Vandalizing rocks with graffiti is going on everywhere. Maybe the idiots posted their activities on UTube and will get caught. The volume of graffiti seems to be inversely proportional to IQ, and the fines when caught are laughable. In
some of our cities it's the businesses who get fined if they allow the graffiti to remain, and not the perpetrators. I kinda like the old days, when, if someone got
caught with a Tote Goat (predecessor of the ATV) in a designated roadless area (predecessor of Wilderness Areas), the FS Officer would simply pull the spark plug and tell them to push it back. After eighteen miles or so of that, they got the point. In Death Valley it would work even better, because their bones would be lying bleached at the side of the road for decades to remind others, or maybe leaving their own wind tracks across the playa.

stawastawa
20-Sep-2016, 15:51
ugh. But I am with you JP, I really really want to give out littering citations..

Two23
20-Sep-2016, 16:16
This might be something that could be solved by technology, such as remote cameras. I too just can't understand these kinds of people. It does seem to be a bit of human nature--I've been reading up on early Yellowstone history for the past couple of years.


Kent in SD

Randy Moe
20-Sep-2016, 17:05
Most people never knew of the place and location until digital cameras, Google Maps and the Internet.

The more we show the images the more they want to contribute their 'mark'.

I take a very long view on our activities, things won't get better until the Bell Curve flattens on the East side.

Bruce Watson
20-Sep-2016, 18:20
Narcissistic sociopaths.

Jon Wilson
20-Sep-2016, 21:26
Narcissistic sociopaths.

Just pray one doesn't marry your sister

Willie
21-Sep-2016, 04:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1ft2q4ckQI

Nothing new even before the idiot Mormon Boy Scout leaders in the link above destroyed a formation in Goblin Valley, Utah.

From carving names to spray painting grafitti to driving on the racetrack, it happens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR9nUo3q7Bk The idiot who toppled the rock is supposedly disabled from a car accident.

Stupidity knows no bounds. The you tube video here shows just how true that is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujwod-vqyqA

Rael
21-Sep-2016, 04:34
This explains it nicely. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjNyTtW-6K8

BrianShaw
21-Sep-2016, 06:20
Just pray one doesn't marry your sister

Or just as bad... One marrying your brother. Too late, though... Happened years ago and despite divorce it's still painful.

goamules
21-Sep-2016, 08:38
There is a hidden desert spring near my house I've been going to for years. A few years ago they made a parking lot, put a trail map up, and everyone started writing about it on the Internet. Guess what's happened to my little 1 mile of wilderness?

I ride a motorcycle and mules and had a 4wd for years. But I cannot fathom these modern 4WD and quad yahoos that think everything is an extreme sport. The internet fosters it, and TV commercials that show people sitting in a little quad/car at the edge of some beautiful cliff, sipping their mountain dew. Instead of hiking in to get away from the modern world, they want to bring it into the last vestiges of solitude.

Randy Moe
21-Sep-2016, 09:00
GPS, Sat phones, cell towers and Red Bull have ruined wilderness.

I remember finding an oasis in the Mojave in 1975 that had all 6 Palm trees burned to a crisp. The only shade and water for many miles, ruined by fools.

Very depressing.

btw, I live in Chicago in a bad area. Never shot at. But in the Mojave in the 70's shot at twice by drunken yahoos that weren't even aiming at us, but nonetheless a round went right through our busy firepit and my new pickup truck. By twice I mean 2 separate events and perps.

We left immediately, at night, lights off. Got my truck back the next day. They were still shooting and very high on drugs.

Thank goodness for the North woods.

MrFujicaman
21-Sep-2016, 09:16
And people like that are why I give money to Planned Parenthood.

Drew Wiley
21-Sep-2016, 09:40
Back to my definition of rednecks - shooting right across roads, drunken or not. The difference between them shooting across roads and deer hunters doing it,
is that the deer hunters only do it during official deer hunting season, and are always drunken, while the rednecks do it all year long, and don't necessarily even
need to be drunk to behave stupidly. They seem to prefer meth anyway. Sorry for interjecting more stereotypes, but such stereotypes are what have kept me
alive. I always drive around a bit before camping in the woods, just to make sure neither of these categories are present anywhere nearby.

cowanw
21-Sep-2016, 10:22
The burial chamber of King Cheops has graffiti from British tourists 150 years ago.
Independence Rock in Wyoming has graffiti from 1850.
I bet the Parthenon has Roman graffiti.
French troops shot up the Sphinx.
Multinational troops destroyed the Summer Palace in Beijing
It would be nice if people were respectful; but making it the internet shame of the week isn't much better.

Drew Wiley
21-Sep-2016, 10:46
I'm all for shaming them on the internet. Better yet, convict them on internet evidence, since they're frequently stupid enough to advertise their own vandalism on
UTube. Those ancient incidents you just described weren't without risk, and if caught, the penalty was likely to be vastly more severe than a modest fine. In some
instances, we have historical records of what such penalties actually consisted of. They were lucky if it was a fast death rather than a slow one.

Bruce Watson
21-Sep-2016, 12:43
Or just as bad... One marrying your brother. Too late, though... Happened years ago and despite divorce it's still painful.

Let's just say that I've met and had to deal with a few. I feel everyone's pain with these... "people".

Two23
21-Sep-2016, 15:36
Back to my definition of rednecks - shooting right across roads, drunken or not. The difference between them shooting across roads and deer hunters doing it,
is that the deer hunters only do it during official deer hunting season, and are always drunken, while the rednecks do it all year long, and don't necessarily even
need to be drunk to behave stupidly. They seem to prefer meth anyway. Sorry for interjecting more stereotypes, but such stereotypes are what have kept me
alive.


Here in the Dakotas I've seen people of all colors and races, and educational levels do this. If anything, it's just as apt to be the original rednecks doing it--drunken Sioux Indians. With any group of people you will have good and bad. Rather than stereotype people, I prefer a more sophisticated approach--judge them as individuals.


Kent in SD

goamules
21-Sep-2016, 17:11
Indeed, Randy, and idiots can be from all nationalities. I've seen more stupid behavior in the wilderness by Mexicans and German tourists than by "rednecks", who usually LIVE in the woods. Not just visit for a little destruction. Around here, in southern AZ, it's the Californians that mess everything up, but that's a long story.

Drew Wiley
22-Sep-2016, 08:49
Those aren't Californians, Garrett, but probably LA people. We don't like them up here either. As you might have already noticed, they all have little empty flasks
so that they can steal the last drops of water out of the Colorado River. Even a big TV star got caught stealing water. But how many people living in Arizona came
from Arizona? I got cussed at by some jerk at a gas station in our mountains one day telling me to go back to the city. Well, I actually came from there, while he
still had a Brooklyn accent. That's when I started talking fluent redneck to him. He got the point and moved on.

Jmarmck
22-Sep-2016, 10:51
Perhaps we can pray for rain to erase the tracks. It will take a lot of prayer. Now that bit of poor humor is now past (sorry) with any luck the idiots will be found and punished. There seems to be a rash of this lately or at least well publicized. But what I don't understand is how people can get so riled up over this yet remain silent about proposed mining and logging in many areas of our treasured lands, Grand Canyon region comes to mind.

Drew Wiley
22-Sep-2016, 11:06
It's become a fad, even fashionable. An extension of the "street art" mentality. You should see what's happened all over the GGNRA, everything in sight spray painted, even back on the trails. It used to be just a couple of spots that had a problem. But Marty, what's the difference - the K. Brothers want to run roads in and
potentially trash things way, while the idiots break off delicate rock formations or paint them - destroyed either way. This is public land, protected for the sake of
certain distinct features, so the only logical policy is one of zero tolerance for vandalism, regardless of who is doing it or why.

Drew Wiley
22-Sep-2016, 11:35
... or let me phrase it another way. A number of years ago there was a particularly lovely riparian canyon outside Moab Utah which was a bone of contention between roadless preservation status and local miners, who then tried to bulldoze a road into to deliberately disqualify it for wilderness status. That was stopped
a ways in by public protest. But the strange thing is that numerous canyons around there have suffered far more damage by being loved to death by trail bikers
and careless hikers. The more popular a spot is, and the more people you get, the more cumulative damage if rules aren't in place and enforced. Then eventually you outright attract a ruin-it for fun culture, just like has happened in much of our Calif deserts and right outside Capitol Reef NP in Utah from ATV's. These are delicate places which will bear the scars for centuries.

Bruce Watson
22-Sep-2016, 11:58
...what I don't understand is how people can get so riled up over this yet remain silent about proposed mining and logging in many areas of our treasured lands, Grand Canyon region comes to mind.

That, and global warming. Global warming is currently reshaping the planet while we do next to nothing. Do we really have to wait until the last coastal redwoods die before we act? Do the Everglades have to be completely subsumed by the ocean before we get a clue?

How can landscape photographers not have global warming as a major priority? How can anyone who supports the National Parks not see the dire consequences of our current lack of action?

Randy Moe
22-Sep-2016, 12:13
Everything west of Denver should be depopulated, ban all transport of any kind. Including airplanes, trains and automobiles. Walk in camping only.

No mining, farming or domestic animals.

We in the East need you all to come back and pay taxes.

Free the West!


From themselves.


Almost kidding!

I am glad I traveled when I was young as it sounds terrible now. I almost wanted to get a camper this year and wander until I looked on online at all the people doing it now. There are many living in Sprinters! And complaining about parking.

Jmarmck
22-Sep-2016, 12:20
Capitol Reef NP and Grand Staircase-Escalante NM are next on my bucket list. As well as a return trip to Kodachrome Valley and Bryce. I've been doing some research on this region. It is sad to think that these places are at danger. I think it is time for the NP and FS to develop new policies. Much as I would hate the restricted access, perhaps that is what is needed.

As for the K bros. well I really really really (did I not say really) am upset about their plans.....as well as the recent changes to the GCNP endorsed by the NPS. I would say it would be nice if the Navajo would take ownership of these lands. They seem to have a greater respect for the land but have the least capability to manage it. Perhaps there is an answer in there somewhere. The Monument Valley region does have uranium mines in the vicinity on Navajo lands (Oljato and Yazzie Mesas to name just two of many). The feds stepped into clean up these old sites.

There are differences between some idiot wanting to leave a mark and a greed ridden industry. The results are the same. The degree of damage is different by orders of magnitude.

Drew Wiley
22-Sep-2016, 12:51
Randy, there are still endless nice places to travel to and see in the West. 95% of the people crowd into just 5% of Park places, or maybe way less than that amount of area. What I recommend is studying up on all the "must see" tour bus and photography locations, look at all the postcards and websites, then go the opposite direction, to somewhere else. Works every time. Preservation of public lands is working, but this has always been an uphill fight every step of the way. Climate change is a different issue. It's probably way too late to stop that train from colliding. It's happening before our eyes. The canary in the coal mine has been dead for awhile already, and the world is unquestionably going to look and feel very different to following generations.

Two23
22-Sep-2016, 15:25
1. Randy, there are still endless nice places to travel to and see in the West. 95% of the people crowd into just 5% of Park places, or maybe way less than that amount of area.

2. Climate change is a different issue.


1. I don't spend a lot of time in big parks--there's so much BLM and even private land around that I can have all to myself. Last year I wanted to go photo the chaos of the motorcycle rally in Sturgis and decided to just sleep in my van. Plan was to park in a Walmart parking lot for free. All along the Interstate it was very crowded for many miles. The Walmart parking lot I had in mind was jammed with noisy drunken people. So, I simply drove north into Butte County, a desolate area I knew well from previous antelope hunting. I drove into a huge state hunting area and had several square miles all to myself. A bonus was a beautiful sunrise I enjoyed while cooking myself a little breakfast on a backpacking stove.

2. Pretty much my thinking, and I partly blame overzealous/emotional "environmentalists." In the early 1980s we had a chance to build zero carbon emissions power plants and replace all the coal plants, but we didn't. Stopped by uneducated "environmentalists*" that really didn't understand the engineering or science, or the ultimate stakes.


Kent in SD
*certainly not all of
them in that category.

Drew Wiley
22-Sep-2016, 15:52
I already mentioned this on another thread. But I recently spent two weeks in Yosemite Natl Park. People instantly assume what that implies because they don't
actually know much of the Park at all. I was even on upper branches of the Merced River, the same river that flows right through Yosemite Valley. We encountered
people only once the first week, and that was a small CC trail crew trying to make a steep section of trail horse accessible. After that, nobody else for another week, until we finally ran into a few coming over the pass. At one gorgeous lake it was over an hour before I spotted any evidence that human beings had ever
been there before, and that was about an inch-long piece of rotting string in the grass. That was it the next two lakes too, except for obsidian chips left behind by ancient bighorn sheep hunters. Of course people get through these places time to time. No secret. It's just not enough of them to leave traces. Vandalism simply spoils that sense of solitude entirely. You're no longer "discovering" something new. It's not the same kind of break from day to day insanity. I've gotten the same kind of refreshment in crowded spots like Arches NP simply by heading down some draw the opposite direction from all the tourist. No one in sight, no noise, complete solitude, not even any footprints, and no lack of wonderful picture opportunities. Last time I was backpacking in Sequoia high country, the wilderness ranger who issued the permit requested that we remember to pick up our "micro-trash" whenever we moved camp. I'd never heard that expression
before, but certainly agree with it. Not a trace, if possible.

Ari
22-Sep-2016, 16:03
The burial chamber of King Cheops has graffiti from British tourists 150 years ago.
Independence Rock in Wyoming has graffiti from 1850.
I bet the Parthenon has Roman graffiti.
French troops shot up the Sphinx.
Multinational troops destroyed the Summer Palace in Beijing
It would be nice if people were respectful; but making it the internet shame of the week isn't much better.

Heh, heh...made me think of this:


https://youtu.be/IIAdHEwiAy8

cowanw
22-Sep-2016, 16:15
ay too brutay!

Drew Wiley
22-Sep-2016, 16:26
Plenty of satire, cartoons lampooning the masters, and personal graffiti have been found in crawl spaces and hidden spots of monuments, tombs, pyramids, medieval cathedrals - you name it. Do something of that nature in sight of authorities or anywhere conspicuously visible, and it wasn't likely to end well. Same goes for iconic animal species. You do know one of the formal rules that has kept the giant panda from extinction in China, don't you? Hint - it ain't a fine if you
kill one, or even a prison term.

Two23
22-Sep-2016, 16:42
Vandalism simply spoils that sense of solitude entirely. You're no longer "discovering" something new. It's not the same kind of break from day to day insanity.


I see it as a "culture of selfishness," and a total lack of perspective. When I'm off by myself in a desolate area, it makes me feel both peace and a kind of "smallness." I intuitively understand my place in the universe. I'm active on several other general topic photo message boards, and when a visitor to the U.S. wants suggestions of where to go, one of my top five picks are the giant trees in Sequoia NP and Yosemite NP. I tell them to just go and sit under them for at least an hour. Don't take any photos, leave your phone in your car. Just sit and consider everything that's happened in the world since those trees emerged from the earth. Unfortunately, not everyone seems to stop and think about where they are and the significance. For the past several years I've been interested in learning all I can about F.J. Haynes, the Fargo ND photographer most famous for Yellowstone photography. (The Ansel Adams of Yellowstone.) That got me reading about early park history. The things visitors did back then were just as appalling if not more so! Look at Liberty Cap today vs. photos Haynes took in the late 1870s. Or the three (now two) petrified trees there. On and on. The early stereoviews I have from YNP clearly show visitors weren't considering that over a hundred years later people would still be coming to see the park, just as they did. Things are much better now than they once were. I think technology (remote cameras etc. at vulnerable spots) can improve things even more. As for trash, I generally pick it up and either carry it off or bury it when I find it. I figure that in a weird sort of way, I'm a kind of "balancer."


Kent in SD

Jmarmck
22-Sep-2016, 17:06
As a child up until I was 18 I never really spent any time in true solitude. Being the last of 8 kids means there is little alone time. In June of 1975 fresh out of high school I spent three weeks backpacking in the South San Juan Mountains of Colorado with the Outward Bound group. Part of the course was three days spent in solitude. I was somewhere south of Knife Edge or Sunrise Peak (which I did climb) on a mountain side with a poncho, water, sleeping bag, and my thoughts. The only company I had was a marmot that would come out and sunbath in the afternoon sun. It was an interesting experience. It is strange what goes through your head when in isolation like that.

Since that experience I have had other self imposed isolation. It helps get things upstairs in order.

jp
22-Sep-2016, 18:06
We've got an outward bound training organization in my area and I've heard many similar stories from the participants.


On this side of the country, people stack up rocks at the beach or hllltop or anywhere suitable rocks are found. Cairns which are not all natural traditional trail makers. Casual visitors think it's quaint or creative. I think it's helpless type-A people foolishly trying to impose human order where there wisely isn't. No dishes or laundry or papers to organize, so they organize rocks. Rednecks wouldn't bother. I've been known to undo some of these stacks if nobody is looking.

Jeff Conrad
22-Sep-2016, 19:08
As long as they arenít using models, sets, or props ...

LabRat
22-Sep-2016, 19:16
Human nature can be strange/sad... People tend to try to shape the environment to their perceived notions, as humans don't like chaos (but it's a more complex natural order of things)... So is it stacking rocks to create a disorder in nature, or building skyscrapers that defy even human logic??? Or tagging stuff to put a mark on something that will seem to outlast us (narcissism) ??? But hey, we do it as photographers trying to find order to compose photographs, but at least respect the natural order and leave it as nature intended it to be...

Usually a bad idea to mix testosterone/alcohol/narcissism/mindsets/notions and let these people out of captivity, and see what happens (and what they are "entitled" to do)...
I don't know if there is a solution... :-(

Steve K

Bruce Watson
23-Sep-2016, 06:48
Almost kidding!

The prevailing attitude. Sigh...

Well, at least we had people like Charlton Watkins, William Henry Jackson, Thomas Moran (painter), up through Ansel Adams and Eliot Porter, and on up to the present day. There will be a good number of photographs and paintings to show future generations what they missed -- what the National Parks used to be like.

Randy Moe
23-Sep-2016, 07:15
sign...

Drew Wiley
23-Sep-2016, 08:48
Kent - even in crazy crowded Yellowstone, I discovered that merely by going there the week the roads were first plowed, but none of the concessions or facilities
yet open, I had even the hot springs around the Lodge all to myself, with all the animals around the river and even Yellowstone Lake itself calm and undisturbed.
I spent about three hours just sitting there watching two swans contending for a little sandbar in the river, until one finally obtained dominance, just to have a bull elk charge across the creek and claim it for himself. Didn't even set up the camera - just wanted to soak it all in, though it otherwise was a very productive photo trip too. Up in the high country I often just sit there watching every nuance of the sun setting, without even taking a shot, even though my view camera it sitting right there ready to go. There will always be another shot. I'm a firm believer that the most important thing is to experience something, deeply appreciate it, slow down and learn to see. But where I grew up, wilderness was straight across the driveway, or right across the main road, and I mean some very rugged
uninhabited terrain. But Yosemite, Sequoia and Kings Canyon, and way way more in terms of high Sierra beauty, were right there too. But the lower canyons,
which are still largely unprotected except by sheer scale, and dammed in many other places, can often exceed the beauty of the higher terrain. That's one reason a lot of my prints aren't immediately accessible in a scenic manner. I want people to slowly get drawn in and ponder over what they are looking at - teach them to look at beauty that is non-stereotypical. Of course, I've got grand subjects too, though I tend to print these very carefully too. Unfortunately, the
damn web is cooperative with only about 5% of my work in terms of representing the nominal subject matter. Much of it either needs the scale, nuance, or sheer detail or a true print to appreciate. Doesn't matter. I've lived it. Nobody can take that from me, even if all those prints end up in a dumpster some day.

bob carnie
23-Sep-2016, 08:55
even though my view camera it sitting right there ready to go. There will always be another shot. I'm a firm believer that the most important thing is to experience something, deeply appreciate it, slow down and learn to see. But where I grew up, wilderness was straight across the driveway, or right across the main road, and I mean some very rugged


Hey Drew - this kind of sounds like the beginning of a Artist Statement, are you getting soft, or more gentle?

Drew Wiley
23-Sep-2016, 09:20
That combat was on a different forum. Different pie fight. If you really want to expose my hypocrisy, Bob, dig up my old web Bio, if it's still possible. That was really related to my early work; and no, it was never intended as an "artist statement" in the current sense, but to what genuinely interested me back in the days of those conspicuous venues when everyone was asking "what th...?. In short, it was an obsession with very complex image planes - lots of interlayered reflections upon reflections, with rare subtle hues modulating the saturated ones, ideal big Ciba territory. For the time being, I'm getting buried in remodeling, and doing it to slowly to avoid messing up my fingers again. Then a big printing and drymounting backlog. Once some of the mess is over and I've got some of my ole studio space back, I'll set up another copy station and perhaps an updated website. No room for it in the lab building per se.

bob carnie
23-Sep-2016, 09:32
Well it was nicely written and started to show a more gentle side of you, keep that up and when you are ready we can talk about a show.

Drew Wiley
23-Sep-2016, 10:05
Oh, I'll shift gears and hope to visit you one of these days, Bob. Don't get fooled by all the web antics. Just exhausted right now, trying to end one career, get my house in order (literally), and implement the next phase. The lab and frame shop is pretty much fully operative, but studio and display space temporarily nonexistent.

bob carnie
23-Sep-2016, 10:14
i have been shifting gears now for 40 years, and I plan to keep shifting gears, Really happy with the gallery service side of my business, it has rejuvenated me to stretch wisely. Good luck with your transition.

Fred L
23-Sep-2016, 17:53
...when i'm off by myself in a desolate area, it makes me feel both peace and a kind of "smallness."...

exactly !

Randy Moe
28-Sep-2016, 05:55
I read this first thing.

Maybe they catch the fools, but what is suitable punishment?

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-death-valley-damage-20160927-snap-story.html

BrianShaw
28-Sep-2016, 06:30
I thought I heard on the news last night that an arrest had been made.

Drew Wiley
28-Sep-2016, 09:15
If they based vandalism charges on the actual cost of attempted repair and restoration, it would be a lot easier to press felony charges out of graffiti incidents rather than token fines which are ridiculously tiny in comparison to what we taxpayers actually have to fork out afterwards, or even in terms of park oversight. The pupfish incident was different because it involved deliberate violation of the endangered species act and conspicuous criminal trespass, so they were all charged
with felonies.

Trevor Whitaker
28-Sep-2016, 16:14
The last image here is a satellite view of the playa that shows the extent of the trail left by the SUV: http://www.nbclosangeles.com/multimedia/Death-Valley-National-Park-Racetrack-Playa-395149511.html

Drew Wiley
28-Sep-2016, 16:28
The damage will disappear given a hard enough winter, but that might not happen within my lifetime; and it's just a matter of time till some bonehead does it again. Hope they catch em.