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mamanton
13-Sep-2016, 12:25
Hello! Let me make the announcement!
We are going to construct a big enlarger, together with Mr. Kienzle and Mr. Heiland.
Our plans:
- 20x24'' (50x60cm) LED cold light source split grade system. We already use those systems in Horizontal 8x10'' De Vere and Vertical 8x10'' Kienzle enlargers. And we are completely satisfied.
- Horizontal self-tuning enlarger. The main idea is not to use the rails as usual, but put the enlarger approximately perpendicular to the wall, then it will align the plane using lasers by itself.
- Lenses is a big question! We want to provide the distance for the bellows about 1 meter, but I still don't know which exactly lenses we'll use for 11x14, 12x16, 12x20, 16x20 and 20x24''.
- Negative carrier is the next big question. Conventional frame with glasses would be so heavy that the enlarger will be able to roll over on its side when the printer will pull it out from the enlarger )) So what we're trying to come up with a new system without glasses.

to be continued...

bob carnie
13-Sep-2016, 12:33
looking forward to your progress

Drew Wiley
13-Sep-2016, 12:39
Without a glass carrier ? How do you expect to achieve any focus accuracy worthy of negatives this big in the first place? Same goes for wide-angle enlarging lenses. Other than the LED light source itself, why try to re-invent the wheel? Big horizontal process cameras could easily be retrofitted for this kind of application.
I once threw out something like that, superbly made, just to cannibalize the suite of Apo Nikkor lenses.

ic-racer
13-Sep-2016, 14:18
Of course the bigger the negative and the longer the lens, the greater error allowed in field flatness. One thing of potential concern is heat. Perhaps Drew has the same thing, but on the CLS2000 Durst head, a separate blower, as strong as a hair blower, is dedicated to just blow on the negative carrier to keep the negative and glass cool.

Drew Wiley
13-Sep-2016, 15:39
Garsh, I once had a Durst color mural head that needed a dedicated 240V breaker just for the damn cooling fan. It drew more wattage than a commerical table saw. That's when I decided to design my own colorhead, at least for big Cibachromes. Modern RA4 prints require just a fraction of that amount of halogen nuking. I've been down quite a bit of this route myself and can certainly sympathize with what they have in mind, but also know the inherent shortcomings. Sure, you could mount distance-measuring lasers on the machine and correct the plane of your target easel within a millimeter each corner. But an aligned track is way easier and cost effective. And my definition of suitable lasers is probably a lot fancier than theirs. I used both lasers and special optics to calibrate my machine; but I have better access to that stuff than most, at least in terms of borrowing it when necessary.

mamanton
13-Sep-2016, 23:13
Without a glass carrier ? How do you expect to achieve any focus accuracy worthy of negatives this big in the first place?

there are two main ideas - magnetic frame, and the frame which pulls the negative in all directions. We'll see...

mamanton
13-Sep-2016, 23:18
One thing of potential concern is heat. Perhaps Drew has the same thing, but on the CLS2000 Durst head, a separate blower, as strong as a hair blower, is dedicated to just blow on the negative carrier to keep the negative and glass cool.

The 8x10'' LED enlargers has no cooling system, as they are very poorly heated. But first rough estimates of the heating of the LEDs on 20х24'' will correspond to approximately 1 kilowatt lamp - like Durst 5x7'' enlarger with CLS1000 head. So, cooling is likely to have to do with silent fans.

mamanton
13-Sep-2016, 23:27
Sure, you could mount distance-measuring lasers on the machine and correct the plane of your target easel within a millimeter each corner. But an aligned track is way easier and cost effective.

On regular wheels with lasers enlarger can be transportable as needed )) And we found that to make the rails perfectly flat on a distance of three meters was not an easy task, besides, we hid them in the floor level.

jose angel
14-Sep-2016, 00:48
It looks to be a funny project. Go ahead!

Well... I`m into some existential and metaphysical doubt because I`m shooting and enlarging 5x7"... many times I wonder if it is really worth it when compared to 4x5"... 4x5" is minimal in comparison, with their lightweight cameras and small enlargers... so, a 20x24" enlarger?!?!?

I know, it`s mostly for fun. For sure most of us actually shoot LF just for that large amount of fun! :D
-----
BTW, most of my LF negatives (up to 8x10") are perfectly flat after the processing. So if 20x24" lies with the same flatness, if heat is not of an issue a vertical glassless carrier seem reasonable... maybe a large clip on top (magnetic) and a "guided", slightly loaded large clip at the bottom will work... just thinking aloud.

What about the working aperture? If my Componon S 180mm ask for f16 to have a barely flat field, which aperture an 600 (800?) mm lens would need?

plaubel
14-Sep-2016, 01:31
Hello, Mamanton,

this all sounds really great!

""Lenses is a big question! I still don't know which exactly lenses we'll use for 11x14, 12x16, 12x20, 16x20 and 20x24''".

I was really surprised, how this question could be asked from optical specialists like Mr. Heiland and Mr. Kienzle.
So today, I had to ask Mr. Heiland himself, and I became calm again - every thing seems to be clear to him, like everytime :-)

Ritchie

Randy Moe
14-Sep-2016, 04:17
It can be done.

I used to work with Russian mechanics that could build everything from almost nothing. They taught me a lot.

I look forward to your success! :)

bob carnie
14-Sep-2016, 06:36
I would be interested in learning more about the final print you imagine.

at 2 magnification you are at 40 x48 print which is pretty big in my book , this would be for silver gelatin prints?

I have only seen 20 x24 negative output from Monty McCutchen and it was pretty dam nice if not spectacular, His system is tailored to his needs and I am wondering let alone the printing of a large negative, ( which I think is totally possible, like Drew I would go with a rail system and have concerns on the negative stage ) how intense are your efforts at the camera stage, for my thinking this is where you either get it or you do not.


Once you have a good neg, well you are dealing with small magnification so your times will be fast, even considering the enlarger lens which I would think should be an APOprocess lens. So making the print is a piece of cake, I once worked on a Lisle Camera with a 20 x24 light box with over 16 bulbs , it was a overhead blow back camera and I can see how by changing the lens configuration it would work.

So you may want to consider an overhead rail system that Moves the negative stage back and forth from the wall.

Drew Wiley
14-Sep-2016, 09:41
OK. I get it. You want the enlarger capable of convenient relocation. So it should be fairly simple to machine or outright buy adequate laser positioning mounts,
and very precise distance-measuring lasers have come down dramatically in price in recent years, some with on-board trig functions (something I personally
lobbied for, for over a decade). Quite doable. I'm still a bit skeptical of going glassless, but it will be interesting to see how that comes out too. Suitable modern barrel process lenses should be easy to acquire. You might even want to keep their original Copal electronic shutters if you want exposure timing even more precise than the on/off function of the LED system itself, provided those shutters are still there. I threw mine all out and only kept the Apo Nikkor lenses per se,
which would certainly be a contender line of optics for your particular project, though I don't know exactly how long you'll find em. The longest one I have is a
760, which hypothetically might decently cover 20x24, though not by stringent apo dot repro standards per spec sheet. But longer lenses are out there, along
with competitor graphics 4-element lenses from Rodenstock etc. I don't want to repeat what has been pointed out on this forum many times before; but these
lenses are even better at enlargement than regular enlarging lenses if your priority isn't sheer speed, typically just a stop down from their f/9 maximum.

bob carnie
14-Sep-2016, 09:46
Their magnification allow's for good printing time with lens aperture, I too am very skeptical about a glassless carrier, I have operated big enlargers and there is a lot of movement of air to cool and a film without glass would be like laundry in the wind.

mamanton
14-Sep-2016, 14:02
It looks to be a funny project. Go ahead!
I know, it`s mostly for fun. For sure most of us actually shoot LF just for that large amount of fun! :D
-----
BTW, most of my LF negatives (up to 8x10") are perfectly flat after the processing. So if 20x24" lies with the same flatness, if heat is not of an issue a vertical glassless carrier seem reasonable... maybe a large clip on top (magnetic) and a "guided", slightly loaded large clip at the bottom will work... just thinking aloud.


Yes, definitely that is the most funny project! We'll have a lot of fun ))
About an easel - thanks for your idea - we are thinking something closely to it.

mamanton
14-Sep-2016, 14:10
Hello, Mamanton,
this all sounds really great!
""Lenses is a big question! I still don't know which exactly lenses we'll use for 11x14, 12x16, 12x20, 16x20 and 20x24''".
I was really surprised, how this question could be asked from optical specialists like Mr. Heiland and Mr. Kienzle.
So today, I had to ask Mr. Heiland himself, and I became calm again - every thing seems to be clear to him, like everytime :-)
Ritchie
Hallo, Ritchie! Please transfer my kind wishes to Mr. Heiland!
For sure, he is a great electronic specialist and inventor with a big passion in analogue photography! His products are almost perfect! As a products from Mr. Kienzle, who is a great engineer and specialist in metal work!
So, lenses are still a big question!
I've already bought one LOMO 600mm, which should cover 20x24'' just for tests, and to start the work with a lens panels, bellows, e.t.c.

mamanton
14-Sep-2016, 14:12
It can be done.
I used to work with Russian mechanics that could build everything from almost nothing. They taught me a lot.
I look forward to your success! :)

Thanks! But in that project I mostly believe in German quality ))
We'll try to do our best in international cooperation!

mamanton
14-Sep-2016, 14:31
I would be interested in learning more about the final print you imagine.
Once you have a good neg, well you are dealing with small magnification so your times will be fast, even considering the enlarger lens which I would think should be an APOprocess lens. So making the print is a piece of cake, I once worked on a Lisle Camera with a 20 x24 light box with over 16 bulbs , it was a overhead blow back camera and I can see how by changing the lens configuration it would work.

This is a very good question. Let me tell how we even came to the idea of the enlarger 20x24''. We took landscape with an architecture, swamp and trees on the 12x20'' format using the Fine Art 550mm lens. Then we printed the contact, and were very disappointed. First, the sharpness was redundant, as the contrast, and the whole image seemed flat.
Then one day I met a LF photographer who prints from negatives 8x10'' photographs 16х20'' maximum, and sometimes less. And they were amazing! Of course, he is a great master, but I realized then that not necessarily greatly enlarge from 8x10 negatives. Enough 1.5x - 2x to air and plastic, plus the ability to conveniently use a masks, burning and dodging.
So, we have a 2,4 meters to 2,4 meters magnetic wall now for the horizontal enlarger 8x10''. But I can imagine that even 30x36'' print from 20x24'' will have a lot of advantages.
I'm looking for Nikkors and Rodenstocks Apo Process lenses 600, 760, 800, 1000mm. But very few information about them.

mamanton
14-Sep-2016, 14:45
I'm still a bit skeptical of going glassless, but it will be interesting to see how that comes out too. Suitable modern barrel process lenses should be easy to acquire. You might even want to keep their original Copal electronic shutters if you want exposure timing even more precise than the on/off function of the LED system itself, provided those shutters are still there. I threw mine all out and only kept the Apo Nikkor lenses per se,
which would certainly be a contender line of optics for your particular project, though I don't know exactly how long you'll find em. The longest one I have is a
760, which hypothetically might decently cover 20x24, though not by stringent apo dot repro standards per spec sheet. But longer lenses are out there, along
with competitor graphics 4-element lenses from Rodenstock etc. I don't want to repeat what has been pointed out on this forum many times before; but these
lenses are even better at enlargement than regular enlarging lenses if your priority isn't sheer speed, typically just a stop down from their f/9 maximum.

Thank you! I'm also still a little bit skeptical of glassless negative carrier, and Mr. Heiland very afraid of glasses because they are very heave and hard to operate with. Plus dust and so on... An he can't sleep very well trying to invent a great option for the glassless negative holder ))
Modern Heiland LED system switches on and off with an accuracy of 1/100 sec. And we are going to create a big panel of LEDs from different pieces with a possibility to switch of and on some areas for different formats, let me tell for 11x14 - only center light, 16x20 - some more around, and 20x24 - all of them.
Of course we need different negative glassless masks, but there will be less heat in printing from 8x10 or 11x14 negatives.
Please let me know if you have any lenses for sale ))

Drew Wiley
14-Sep-2016, 15:41
Those of us who routinely yet precisely enlarge 8x10 film know that the straw that breaks the camel's back is likely to either be depth of field compromises or
imperfect film flatness at the time of the shot. While the latter can be controlled, and the former by judicious composition selection, going clear up to 20x24 film means that very little in the shot will be truly in focus. The "circle of confusion" becomes a playground of confusion, depending on the degree of enlargement, unless you're talking about flat copy reproduction using vac film positioning. ... Not that this route hasn't been tried before, and that one man's cul de sac is another man's engineering dream vacation to Disneyland. Good luck, and have fun regardless!

Randy Moe
14-Sep-2016, 15:52
Everything is compromise.

I should not have assumed from your location.

I only meant anything is possible.



Thanks! But in that project I mostly believe in German quality ))
We'll try to do our best in international cooperation!

Drew Wiley
14-Sep-2016, 16:26
Even German products are compromises. That kind of conversation I've had face to face with their engineers and CEO's.

Greg
14-Sep-2016, 16:58
I graduated from The Rochester Institute of Technology in 1973. Saw a lot of very unique photographic equipment while I was up there. In one room was a really large horizontal enlarger. From what I can remember everything ran on two floor tracks. "Easel" had a box on top that held a roll of Polycontrast paper. There was a light trap from which the paper was rolled down from. Typical lens stage with bellows connecting it to the negative holder's stage. Behind was another bellows connecting it to the light source. Theatrical gels that matched Polycontrast filters could be slid in a slot in front of the light source. Light source was huge, most certainly made of multi tungsten bulbs with a very efficient cooling system that exited the cooling air outside the building. Do remember test strips were 8x10 sheets of paper. Full sheets were processed in one very large tray with chemical dumped in and drained out. FYI: Chemistry was supplied for free from Kodak. Roll of paper probably also donated by Kodak. Back then in Kodak's heyday, they donated huge amounts of materials to RIT. Now for the all important fact.... size of the enlarger. Unfortunately can't remember but it was a square format and probably between 24" and 36".

Eric Woodbury
14-Sep-2016, 18:03
You probably know all this stuff if you are tackling such a big project, but let me write it down anyway.

I'd guess your light source, at full power, to be approx. 600 to 1000W. Keep up to date on the latest LEDs. More efficient products every day. Drive the LEDs with current sources, not voltage, as LEDs have steady light output with current. Source needs to be oversized and the size would depend on the enlarging lens angle. Edges are horribly uneven. Also, remember no such thing as a perfect diffusor. Perfect is no loss and everywhere even. Won't happen. Therefore, we can infer from this that since it is not a perfect diffusor, that some image-able light comes through. Furthermore, as the lens is stopped down, there will be more focus on that image of the light source which appears as unevenness. Thus, design the light source as even as possible, as if there were no diffusor, and make it oversized.

I wonder if it is possible to make a vacuum neg carrier that is the diffusor, too? I don't know how to do this, but if it were possible, then one could 'suck' the neg up against a plexiglass surface. (BTW, there is a new plastic diffusion material that uses air bubbles instead of white for diffusion. It is suppose to be more diffuse and efficient. I have some, but haven't tried it yet.) The advantage here, besides the flatness, is that no Newton rings are formed with a neg in direct contact with a diffused surface. Plus, any dirt on the mating surfaces virtually disappears. Another trick I've seen for holding 8x10 negs flat is to have an aluminum frame to which the neg is held flat with simple clamps at the edge. Once inside the enlarger, the heat expands the aluminum more than the negative and pulls it tight. Not sure that this would work with sufficient flatness for 20x24. Depends on the temperature coefficients of expansion for both materials, but this can be calculated.

A wide-angle enlarging lens brings "cosine to the fourth" errors. Impossible to correct without the attenuation of another filter. And as noted above, the light source would have to be extended even more to accommodate the lens (since the light source can be 'seen' through the diffusor).

Lots of advantages to horizontal since gravity works in your favor. I can see while reviewing this that the neg carrier could be heavy. It would be good to calculate its weight early and consider how the neg is installed and moved into position. Might be easier to clamp opposing edges that hold the neg in tension with springs or weights. The business with the laser alignment seems a bit of overkill, but I have never designed with such things. How about a vertical neg and horizontal paper with a reflex? Too weird. How about a air-floated optical bench for the whole thing? Might be able to find one used.

Hope this helps. Disregard after reading. --ew--

LabRat
14-Sep-2016, 20:00
IMHO, having a huge enlarger for something like a 20" X 24" neg sounds cool, but if the print will only be 20 X 24 (1:1) it's a lot of work/big commitment to build the beast in the first place... (WH Jackson did OK with those large contact prints...) Maybe work on bigger cameras for bigger negs that can be contact printed would be OK...

When I worked on large scale murals that were to be "tiled", it is MUCH harder to match many prints so the final effect is even looking, so I have no problem with inkjets for multi-print murals, because if there's a mounting issue, making another print is no problem, but with traditional processes, sometimes just another day in the darkroom produces different results for critical matches... And there's the issue that the choices of large roll paper are shrinking, so there might not be a long term opportunity to use this beast...

Another possibility for light stage coverage is the use of a large fresnel (+ diffuser?) near the negative, with the lamp farther away at the focal point... These can be had from old large screen projection TV's, and can be surprisingly even if set-up very carefully... (I sometimes use one for a "daylight" light source studio effect using a small lamp at a distance...)

Good luck,

Steve K

mamanton
15-Sep-2016, 04:18
In my opinion, mostly the Camera 20x24'' will be used for shooting portrets with an old lenses. And unsharp areas somewhere on the background is ok ))
But, probably, we'll make some landscapes too. We'll see... In any way it's a custom made enlarger, which we may renovate or upgrade later on.
Of course, we are trying to create a perfect design of the enlarger - that's why I'm writing here.
Thanks everybody for your interest and advises!!!


Those of us who routinely yet precisely enlarge 8x10 film know that the straw that breaks the camel's back is likely to either be depth of field compromises or
imperfect film flatness at the time of the shot. While the latter can be controlled, and the former by judicious composition selection, going clear up to 20x24 film means that very little in the shot will be truly in focus. The "circle of confusion" becomes a playground of confusion, depending on the degree of enlargement, unless you're talking about flat copy reproduction using vac film positioning. ... Not that this route hasn't been tried before, and that one man's cul de sac is another man's engineering dream vacation to Disneyland. Good luck, and have fun regardless!

mamanton
15-Sep-2016, 04:20
Everything is compromise.
I should not have assumed from your location.
I only meant anything is possible.

Yes, I understood. It was a joke ))
For sure, in every country you can create something special and amazing! Everything is possible and depends on people!

mamanton
15-Sep-2016, 04:23
I graduated from The Rochester Institute of Technology in 1973. Saw a lot of very unique photographic equipment while I was up there. In one room was a really large horizontal enlarger. From what I can remember everything ran on two floor tracks. "Easel" had a box on top that held a roll of Polycontrast paper. There was a light trap from which the paper was rolled down from. Typical lens stage with bellows connecting it to the negative holder's stage. Behind was another bellows connecting it to the light source. Theatrical gels that matched Polycontrast filters could be slid in a slot in front of the light source. Light source was huge, most certainly made of multi tungsten bulbs with a very efficient cooling system that exited the cooling air outside the building. Do remember test strips were 8x10 sheets of paper. Full sheets were processed in one very large tray with chemical dumped in and drained out. FYI: Chemistry was supplied for free from Kodak. Roll of paper probably also donated by Kodak. Back then in Kodak's heyday, they donated huge amounts of materials to RIT. Now for the all important fact.... size of the enlarger. Unfortunately can't remember but it was a square format and probably between 24" and 36".

Golden times!

MartinP
15-Sep-2016, 05:06
Concerning the movement of cooling-air affecting the neg, is it not possible to use the diffuser as a 'wall' between the LED- array and the neg? Or is there some technical requirement to have the LEDs and the neg in the same airspace?

I suppose a neg carrier would most simply be based on tension, by means of edge-clamps and parallelograms in the same plane as the neg. The corner springs used in some carriers for 4x5" and 8x10" would be impractical for anything larger (if they ever worked anyway). The question becomes whether sufficient tension can be applied to remove sagging (the tension frame would help with rigidity of course) without destroying the neg, or stretching it.

Negative material is available in this size as a special order, so that might not be a problem. Is paper available in a size that would make the prints worthwhile and able to recover the cost of enlarger production? Looking on manufacturers websites, large paper sizes approach that of the coating machines - for example, 56" roll seems to be the largest from Ilfordphoto, implying a print of roughly 56"x 67", hence a linear magnification of just under three, without cropping.

Presumably the machine will be a for-hire system (hence the rails-free design), moved around for different projects like the huge old Polaroid cameras or the big, walk-in cameras with Harman Direct-Positive paper -- in turn that implies providing a 20x24" camera to produce the negatives.

Good luck with such an interesting project.

Edit: Might a light-source using studio-flash into a diffuser-box remove cooling, cost and complexity problems tied up with the LED head? Two exposures, or two flash units, would provide the light for variable-contrast papers but dodging and burning might be tricky!

bob carnie
15-Sep-2016, 06:30
I agree with Drew

For what the OP is trying to do I would think about a dream enlarger PIPE DREAM

this is how I see such a setup working, now I know the OP has particular needs but I am being greedy here and designing one for myself.

Overhead rail system with stepper motors on the back and forth for the unit as well back and forth remote control of the fine focus, This most likely would require a Durst Style Negative stage, but biggie size.
The lens would be of the finest quality and speed.
The lightbox / power light unit has already been designed (Lisle Camera) so I know this works.
Creating Magnification Charts is easy if you are so inclined for changing paper.

The wall would be adjustable with a very good vacumn system and within the room everything would be painted black, of course a econoroll for paper delivery and cut.

We have tried to have paper dispensers on the vacumn walls in the darkroom, I never saw one that worked to my needs, placing magnets for positioning and kicking on the vacuum when paper is in place is very easy.. On a very good day at Jones and Morris Photo Enlarging I could put 5 boxes of paper on the wall - that is a lot of paper.


2 times magnification is 40 x48 - three times takes us out of the realm of commercial made paper.

For me the problem would be the Camera Stage , being able to get a good technical negative not to mention something I would like to print.

Randy Moe
15-Sep-2016, 06:56
You may find a source at this 'Toy' store, which sells robot parts, distance sensors and controllers.

I shop there and they are a reliable supplier. Watch the videos!

https://www.pololu.com/category/189/proximity-sensors-and-range-finders

mamanton
15-Sep-2016, 07:23
Source needs to be oversized and the size would depend on the enlarging lens angle. Edges are horribly uneven. Also, remember no such thing as a perfect diffusor.

BTW, there is a new plastic diffusion material that uses air bubbles instead of white for diffusion. It is suppose to be more diffuse and efficient. Another trick I've seen for holding 8x10 negs flat is to have an aluminum frame to which the neg is held flat with simple clamps at the edge. Once inside the enlarger, the heat expands the aluminum more than the negative and pulls it tight. Not sure that this would work with sufficient flatness for 20x24. Depends on the temperature coefficients of expansion for both materials, but this can be calculated.

Lots of advantages to horizontal since gravity works in your favor. I can see while reviewing this that the neg carrier could be heavy. It would be good to calculate its weight early and consider how the neg is installed and moved into position. Might be easier to clamp opposing edges that hold the neg in tension with springs or weights. The business with the laser alignment seems a bit of overkill, but I have never designed with such things.

Hope this helps. Disregard after reading. --ew--

Many many thanks! Your ideas are very clever, I'll keep them in my mind.

mamanton
15-Sep-2016, 07:33
IMHO, having a huge enlarger for something like a 20" X 24" neg sounds cool, but if the print will only be 20 X 24 (1:1) it's a lot of work/big commitment to build the beast in the first place... (WH Jackson did OK with those large contact prints...) Maybe work on bigger cameras for bigger negs that can be contact printed would be OK...

Another possibility for light stage coverage is the use of a large fresnel (+ diffuser?) near the negative, with the lamp farther away at the focal point... These can be had from old large screen projection TV's, and can be surprisingly even if set-up very carefully... (I sometimes use one for a "daylight" light source studio effect using a small lamp at a distance...)

Good luck,

Steve K

Thanks, Steve! Firstly, we thought about an enlarger slightly bigger than 8x10, let me say for the negatives 11x14, 12x20.... But we recognized that it would be still a lot of work, and we decided to create an enlarger with a reserve for the future - 20x24'' - maximum format we can imagine ))
Once we decided, next month we were very lucky bought the 20x24'' camera )) No way back!
And we are very like Heiland LEDs splitgrade system. Most comfortable printing system. We'll use it in 20x24''!

Drew Wiley
15-Sep-2016, 09:09
Well, I'll never build my dream enlarger. I came as close as I could on my budget and machinery limitations. This was slightly pre affordable steppers and full sine wave control, which I would be wary of even now due to dependency on specific software and its inherent short lifespan. So I gotta put up with triacs going out every now and then, and the headache of having to employ a block and tackle to remove and replace the colorhead even for a basic lightbulb change. It's a huge vertical machine (to save floor space), true narrow-band additive color, and the colorhead runs relatively cool due to its special yet oversized design. The vac easel itself is built like a tank. But I see absolutely no means of escape from precision glass carriers. Get a copy of one of those old Kodak Graphic Arts Guides, or similar tech literature from Stoesser etc. They give actually coefficients of expansion and contraction on polyester (mylar, Kodak Estar film base, etc). And polyester is the standard for film stability. Acetate is awful. Glass also isolates the emulsion from dust landing on the in-focus emulsion itself due to ventilation inside the system. The benefits greatly outweigh the headache of having to clean repeatedly clean glass. It's better than endless spotting afterwards.

mamanton
15-Sep-2016, 14:45
Concerning the movement of cooling-air affecting the neg, is it not possible to use the diffuser as a 'wall' between the LED- array and the neg? Or is there some technical requirement to have the LEDs and the neg in the same airspace?
I suppose a neg carrier would most simply be based on tension, by means of edge-clamps and parallelograms in the same plane as the neg. The corner springs used in some carriers for 4x5" and 8x10" would be impractical for anything larger (if they ever worked anyway). The question becomes whether sufficient tension can be applied to remove sagging (the tension frame would help with rigidity of course) without destroying the neg, or stretching it.
Edit: Might a light-source using studio-flash into a diffuser-box remove cooling, cost and complexity problems tied up with the LED head? Two exposures, or two flash units, would provide the light for variable-contrast papers but dodging and burning might be tricky!

For sure, it's possible to use any kind of diffuser between LEDs and a negative, even a normal milky glass, or some kind of mixing box.
No way to turn us out from the LED cold light source ))
Thank you for the interest and advices!

mamanton
15-Sep-2016, 14:59
Overhead rail system with stepper motors on the back and forth for the unit as well back and forth remote control of the fine focus, This most likely would require a Durst Style Negative stage, but biggie size.
The lens would be of the finest quality and speed.
The lightbox / power light unit has already been designed (Lisle Camera) so I know this works.
Creating Magnification Charts is easy if you are so inclined for changing paper.
The wall would be adjustable with a very good vacumn system and within the room everything would be painted black, of course a econoroll for paper delivery and cut.
We have tried to have paper dispensers on the vacumn walls in the darkroom, I never saw one that worked to my needs, placing magnets for positioning and kicking on the vacuum when paper is in place is very easy.. On a very good day at Jones and Morris Photo Enlarging I could put 5 boxes of paper on the wall - that is a lot of paper.
2 times magnification is 40 x48 - three times takes us out of the realm of commercial made paper.
For me the problem would be the Camera Stage , being able to get a good technical negative not to mention something I would like to print.

We already have the totally black walls in the darkroom, and the enlarger on the rails - DeVere 508H with motors for distance and for fine focus. It works. We calibrated it, and it works. Why not to try something new?
Vacuum walls is a question... Firstly we didn't find the wall in a big size. Next, you need to cover all the halls around the paper, if you print not a big photo, like 50x70cm (20x27''), next big problem - dust, next noise - or you should bring the vacuum machine to another room... oh... to complicated.
Another option - electrostatic wall! Very expensive, and did't see how it work, only heard about it.
We found that magnets are working very good! We already printed 110x220cm photo from 6x12 negative, and 110x140cm from 8x10''.
Now we are waiting for the renovation and some modification of Donchev 20x24'' Camera plus tripod - but it's not a theme for this thread.

mamanton
15-Sep-2016, 15:00
You may find a source at this 'Toy' store, which sells robot parts, distance sensors and controllers.
I shop there and they are a reliable supplier. Watch the videos!
https://www.pololu.com/category/189/proximity-sensors-and-range-finders

Thanks a lot!!!

LabRat
15-Sep-2016, 17:16
Have you considered finding an old graphic arts process camera and converting to a ULF enlarger??? (There are many sitting around unused, and can cost little or nothing, or the owners might even PAY you to take it away!?!!! Might even have the lens set, and other goodies...) That way you can concentrate on a light source + neg carrier... It might have the copy easel that can be used to hold paper, or the rear vacuum easel can be converted if large enough... Would get you up and running faster than a ground-up build...

Steve K

Eric Woodbury
15-Sep-2016, 18:51
A friend of mine that prints 8x10 constantly needed a replacement V54 tube. He was using the T12 V54 (which he wore out, that's how much he prints), high intensity, which is about 50% brighter than standard. So he built a simple LED light source with white (4200 K) LED tape strips. He used 20 each, 12 inch strips at 4.2 Watts and 340 lumens each. Final product is 2/3 stop slower than his high intensity V54 tube was. There's a fair amount of info here, but it needs careful consideration. He used white LEDs, so he is probably wasting about 30% or more of the spectrum and energy, as the paper will not see the yellow, orange, or red. Using GREEN and BLUE LEDs of equal efficiency will give more usable photons per watt than white, filtered LEDs. This is 84 Watts into 929 square cm. He has used the same old box to mount his LEDs as the T12 cold light. No fans, no cooling, no problem.

If we scale this to 24 x 28" (oversized), that would be 4335 sq cm. (4335 cm^2 * 84 Watts / 929 cm^2 = 364 Watts. If you get all of that into the proper spectrum, you'd probably overcome any loss of light compared to V54 coldlight, which is very bright in my opinion.

Furthermore, if one were to mount, say, 1000W of LEDs to a 24 x 28 x 0.25" (61 x 71 x 0.6 cm) aluminum plate (7.5 kilograms), it would heat at about 9C per minute. In the above example, it would heat the plate at about 3C per minute. This is not much heat. There will be some convection and I've assumed none. No fans required. For best stability, as mentioned above, current source drive is required. YMMV.

Eric Woodbury
15-Sep-2016, 19:47
I should have mentioned that a LUMEN is relative to the human eye response (we see green very well and the ends of the spectrum hardly at all, i.e. not blue or red), while paper 'sees' green and blue about equally well, but not much past the green (yellow, orange, red). Given all those variable, it's almost impossible to accurately calculate what the paper response will be to any particular LED, especially white LEDs which are blue at heart and augmented by phosphors to produce lines that trick your eye into thinking it is continuous.

Have a lucky day. --ew--

mamanton
16-Sep-2016, 03:33
Thanks, Eric!
Heiland LED system uses Green and Blue LEDs which were precisely chosen from many variants. And the system is calibrated to different modern papers and films. As you know modern multigrade papers are sensitive to green and blue light - that's how we can change the contrast. More sensitive to the blue, a little bit less to the green. The system has a special probe. Firstly you load the film to the negative carrier, focus, close the aperture, choose the name of the paper (for example, Ilford MGIV FB WT), do the measurment on the projection. After that the system shows you a base contrast and exposure, and calculate by itself how much time of green and how much time of blue you need to preserve the details in blacks and show the facturas in whites.
It also has RED LEDs - like safelight - very comfortable option.
All three colours gives you WHITE light for focus.

Drew Wiley
16-Sep-2016, 08:48
I've made plenty of vac easels. They require very little vac draw if intelligently designed. You want small holes distributed in a manner than pull the paper flat in
a predictable manner, not anything like pegboard. You also need internal struts or shims so that the surface isn't deflected on vac draw. Do not use a peristaltic
pump which vibrates due to a diaphragm or piston, but something with a continuous vane effect. Yes, if necessary you can do this with a small true 2-stage HEPA vac in the same room, since these have low decibel levels and will actually clean surrounding air too. But it's important to either have one with variable power or
a bleeder valve to prevent excessive vac draw. Ordinary vacs of shop vacs will need to be isolated in a different room, have a tube through the wall, and then be
equipped with a bleeder. Another problem will be keeping the perimeter of the paper down prior to vac. This can be done with either magnetic bars or a masking
blade system borrowed from a big ordinary easel, or made from scratch. As you already know, some papers have quite a bit or curl to them.

Monty McCutchen
16-Sep-2016, 11:46
Well obviously I've only contact printed my 20 x 24 negs for Platinum/Palladium but when you get this done I'll definitely hire you to make a big print from one of my favorite negatives! That would be great, assuming of course you are open to outside business. Good luck!!!

Monty

mamanton
17-Sep-2016, 00:58
Thanks, Monty!

I hope everything will be done in one year )))


Well obviously I've only contact printed my 20 x 24 negs for Platinum/Palladium but when you get this done I'll definitely hire you to make a big print from one of my favorite negatives! That would be great, assuming of course you are open to outside business. Good luck!!!

Monty

blindpig
17-Sep-2016, 07:52
Once I built a device with a 20X24 lamp house and mounted a glass in front of it.Having the same concern you have about the weight of a removable negative carrier cut a vacuum groove around the edge of the glass and mounted the negative with tape in a piece of estar clear base as a frame allowing the negative itself to become the vacuum blanket. this insured flatness and nothing between the emulsion and lens.In order to gain access to the vacuum glass the bellows would disconnect from the back and move toward the lens temporarily,then close back for projection.This worked well for our needs and eliminated moving a negative carrier in and out of the device.
Like everyone else I'm wishing you all the luck and hope you will share your results.
Don

mamanton
19-Sep-2016, 10:39
Once I built a device with a 20X24 lamp house and mounted a glass in front of it.Having the same concern you have about the weight of a removable negative carrier cut a vacuum groove around the edge of the glass and mounted the negative with tape in a piece of estar clear base as a frame allowing the negative itself to become the vacuum blanket. this insured flatness and nothing between the emulsion and lens.In order to gain access to the vacuum glass the bellows would disconnect from the back and move toward the lens temporarily,then close back for projection.This worked well for our needs and eliminated moving a negative carrier in and out of the device.
Like everyone else I'm wishing you all the luck and hope you will share your results.
Don

Thank you, Don! Very very interesting!

Drew Wiley
19-Sep-2016, 11:19
I once dismantled a huge copy camera where the glass sandwich pivoted on central axis bearings to allow relatively easy film change. A fussy mount to make,
requiring solid precise perimeter support; but that's what machinists are for.

bob carnie
19-Sep-2016, 12:57
Thank you, Don! Very very interesting!

Don is very knowledgeable in these sort of things.

Andrew O'Neill
19-Sep-2016, 13:51
I converted an old copy camera into an enlarger so that I could enlarge my 8x10's up to 20x24. Works very well, with a cold light on top and 240 schneider underneath. Forgive me if this has been answered, but what size enlargements will you be doing?

mamanton
22-Sep-2016, 09:54
Hi everybody!
I'll be on Photokina fair, Cologne, Germany from 23 to 25 September.
I'll be happy to meet somebody of you in real life to discuss the enlarger, and other ULF and largeformat and darkroom equipment.
We can meet each other near the Kienzle booth - Hall 03.1 Stand D 011.
Hope see you soon!

mamanton
28-Sep-2016, 14:37
Good morning!
I returned from Photokina, Cologne. We discussed a lot of the big enlarger. In the next few days I'll post pictures of our project.
And yet a few photos of the Heiland electronic space booth.

155638
155642
155640
155641

Special thanks to Stefan Diller for the 20x24'' negative!

And some news from the Photokina 2016:
- A control for Heiland LED cold light source for exposure of colour papers for RA4 and llfochrome processes.
- A darkroom device useful to detect dust on negatives.
- Heiland TAS film processor moves now also Jobo Expert Drum tanks.
- A new version of Heiland LED darkroom light equipped with yellow LEDs enables the secure work in the colour lab.
- A four colour LED option is now available for Heiland densitometer series, in order to enable density measurement of negatives processed with staining developers.
- And of course, first results of the design of an LED cold light source for ultra large format negatives with size 20x24 inches.

mamanton
1-Oct-2016, 07:15
The enlarger skeleton

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/STgnihGNQtulNb-gH4dOtBYzYpd67EEMiTHiJig_tSta8L9qbdOKAHl0LdL_UAwCDPnDLuNWrLa0IujHHyOnDwgf6Wvvf7_2s2qL1PFhRhANAADYohZ3abP5U6jwOx7RppkPDChTGcMSTtCmQcxHMqLjz1NEV9Z22fzOlrWQgxCHBuNguFl6Jub-So3r3f-239Vt_feNG59v64crIdsg2ke3eX3tcjA0s8ItpsLPwuKrXnCfjplYaIEI8k2ePGbPgW3WVKz9iHhWR7Hl92KSB9nQjmjOHtbGz0NeTPTepAw7R5s1HbvMymscfbTyPupaXLD9fyj5c7ery9Zw2P-S_S1svCFb50NR7VqTigbMeP0ENb4nRStxGThEa1yuy8zcj7aQW0UGgNKIbylZTLEMwAQ1BI9wMN1_vghDzhzi-qjVllYshu_FntapTuFUwhF1jDd84zXeANQUYeV4G2cIMaO4QifgFwL_j6mvNUDctjsscXHWyXdFfrqUUa36UgDcoWE77dYA7wAh4UZRmx3n-wAKnhEHbc4C4O8PAgbTYnrEr8t92Fw4NvdABYRAFbs7JU_0fbA_3YnbpZte89FB7QlSZCD7I5wApkPjmbsA-6bi25rS=w1500-h1125-no

LEDs module with a heating (or cooling) system will weight about 80 kg itself. Contains 15552 LEDs. Fans will be switched on only with white light for focusing, and will be automaticaly switched OFF during the exposure.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/B4Jo0n32JWFXOSf9C9ZSSGj37ZrYJHU27SZ59C9K-dLVHwah4Rl-vGAqRmTFbzBzB1okZTCVlTemY_nkwc0tGxkCpxuJzSfD6-cmPZKoEFCXmpoQFwp-V7FX5b4YRPrVnM_8PzSG6vnMU_Bb6Z-m1xMcOfIZpjAT1Ecfl-hMn4NQpXKTcop5n_LjY26pX0V6kl7pvghCKmdYz3CvYVHPA3VPUwdEPdYeBjEG0Ew6P85agXwDtrYo_zHiiGUzsm2Mr_sTvvxftySwuDQd8A9TD6rXdUVJ4apeNvrB45e6lG_AsKDlOK8EPy-tHYlNmU44gEqB7PLvuOsByFmV_aIC6tRgi8HGGlFUrc4r6TzEYxL946lW3khCOzKd_1PY1QVSCUAckVcyKrz0IBFG0CjEoZDZpiCByPLGQMZCCn5v5tQy9JbKUdvYJVggYBB-wWGt46oAEZj8EIYjsyU_Jn5khW5ZrzV4sc6R38w-TRCmahvxmVBYBWUOTNHrxpmhgxwbAM_cY0yVspXfZzF0ep0GCVEc2q48QkBai4TGSMUmqNnUJks-DjOMgSdFf58xZvT7R8Y0yCjkyd1cyiOAQpi3cFfqSCQNVibUec-tyQF89rELuedd=w1500-h1125-no

LED module, mixing box and negative carrier will be with a rotating mode to 90 degrees - portrait and landscape orientation.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/LywYJWlKWXq_OIIdFmcuLTv7mfnBZiVUN38XvIpELNhEQ2bYuPZ59F9m8DN7AgETnrF4WJmkTKIni6hrhtD9NCDgrC7MJMiAmKcyUFuYl93rHzckF_-ZiX_g04hpaBNj-JYBxJSQx8U4jorlU65BRX9eaC-14u_VCctrYa7T9u--wS7mwqRpfCwuF2eGOnuMDIptKq1B6rRtaHL-dvlm_mjkJMqaSGOuBSoiC6U0R8FmCxIzPEs-A6sc3SRYLPFnXV8DRU9ecc575lUINu325MYWrcnW0eau7VEEOsyrulJ9LSRwKTJzhlPVRf0OJIeYbnD8Qs4rk3rNzJ78rtsNAPMyWK2xADdNCrknY8ZCJZl21buRpUakZsFVKhI9F0o9EpE566sLt92-wb98U67J00ayhwzM9FVNBm-5sAw6nkiGj-88kkCD0KxwIGEzec-Dm1kx3M69NZIg3zuy-KCe4K2KmvGg5bsDl8Z-cQnUuOceaJRo0t9_aAk04BXJNpRzuF-q_YO9Ucpp3-Oytfxivg3byWe2w5s7--KaklhW2-HO8ATZvdO8BjW7qs1Mr4rZSZaqzpLZoId1vLs9yvSK3aA3vh-Sb0YDg8CRkQ_7SgExiKBA=w1500-h1125-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/LYL_i6zNNjE--GCIdDoxn8OsrV8ST0YclC6FGTYAugg4AWJIbF-K6pU2MgiTJFU29JjoYLeli3a5y61rOHsmM7McpBFS5Y4uVA51Fzlhm6oN2ykQrmR8bxNbXQWubFV67oRntigUc_F1r_vTFy6jfbkZCtK5Jmv_I8ndRNbVI44bIAPcMIwYhkw99OCNqqyr6UZ9iybcqiF5Fyl--fV516_b2O4u7wCpifkgTgtIE_13_jidKJbqkm3PTptjrJhoMZvHI3gXlePrhKWLci4xH27JAZNny3rz5zt1JZOhE3AZ2x9PgBzzNNfNQHA-gVp5qhehn4wghZakWDSzTCmNwgWxyJn9ClHYuOvavfh80qisG_4InyY8pl8e016Z1AvIHwCA8Aug_TH7WdBsRvtljcgWZkcEP3CPekrx0e81PAIhHE8R9LVE6ikulcA2CQZkV6yQsfpZtPyn5hJByyuEF8Rv1kPznjS2E5EtaCa870G1NtqRaEeqo_0chyf9CQIDTLm9Syfsjn5xLMu9HbHJ01qPII_m9Tr40U3I_i34rJtu3OiA0896uR6AOe4Am4iq982bVrGsn3_ezSvLOrzB-HJ6a7wu-O6bL6GMXx8kFs7iXUj1=w1500-h1125-no

mamanton
1-Oct-2016, 07:16
That heavy duty stick should be powerfull enough to rotate about 100kg (LEDs + Negative carrier)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6f2oFMZIF_rqMznwW2t8Wfs_-Je1D0ztbypZnkfl48f4BOYPSyOZUvuCLTLAMA2_RUuNm1O7cSzUYJSaMXytztZBqmBWbfOfG2HcctJ1RcjH0M38aTMgBtvnS-A5wxne1cFn0fMklfMt03ZsE6aobSh5S9mxNltxOzpiAqFXPbeedYalNJxcRjuHuUFZl_wXjHKZa2aDae4Y4owVIlLGyNmguA46gPY21cGq7EXGdNpyCUmgRudlvIIoMhfrTg23MZ76s7UtvuUtub2ZMtyZn_9kf2hQePbFdSPZe-UC87jjFJaktvoR2fWwPKPxXimYtU1ApofmMEVPNeh1tc0oAqhFEQqkcoll7HrmHXLIVNQCrqB4i6CuOhaC5s2itD51ltMsfazfdDPnf4TMutaNk7TcK7-q_ipSBxvVFydcjx4MucN5py4V8CU3BiJZ94OcfqRGoHbmi55peXmFi4mSAUigML9uQVtfaeU9aZUfV1ZOjL15jagQJhuG7O8ClUPvkH7RvG40AmJ0ZZmgYNHIqBNbg7ECx1v3LGYFVPM4kw3BAWxrxl0fvofzEvQa9n9OFC5fgsZqMn-P3NVUMe9KXwFBU4btxsq1-USVGoe8DrDFKLJH=w1500-h1125-no

Fans on two sides. From one side - blows in, and blows out - from another.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Plg4hyf3I8saQlqWxrwhK2nF8ogK4zDaJicWVGHl9RwKTKMoiMCPhFK88L-gajvfmGE4L5-nG4zeITuKC3UFT9IZwJkNiXviZt1NN5-9t2PXlc4dklzyExLtFAXG_mE7yRbX2Dqucu5dPFoB9Hwhr1MF5SDhdcKD1EhPl3TcGgDZRVtjjNhxTC_Qba4rzP-Zq0aLGTOSQDEcwAAYSH3c63jaIyYm4mUm2jdGHnit2hWgX-EhghyxKdHwHRJS_rSoxA7y3vq3RqmI5Jo_J3Vadn4Phzp7-EskYg2se5GZxHP78apD-GlJ7vZB9FoOZQ4edhke8NvLVeHZKk1znsaSfc9riYtPdptI02p3iLdS15gG73cdQCD9RDgrxHrLvHLwaX1wSwotA9tj32ki7TQZMqJEpaVdq1nOSjlT5xQPp6_xEglYiRMvwBcmtyFdKAKJPIUMFLfbxlT2mtr9fNRI8cnquruX9ZlOvYLMMeb4AOzqinLySNqUTK0x-p5BM1Td-h3aenTaEJhcRiyKTSU6z0S5U4Bz4KWzjnL0CZsrAF02rh9ENy51YezeU_B7yldIhlRo5yptYH8uqFMeZNRcDL9kjcGFA6OBZiFr-o7ThytXMxEg=w1500-h1125-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/cemy30s6MBGBD-2UBx3yL6knt8VKG1UCa-9OZi2J5UPMQV8-7PiWIlPU6Kyzeqc8byYwl9Aks3nK1Oc-O9T3X0sOr-CgLZeUse864GCxyH9eZfQs1xugRLnCwgaW6GlkJ74T0Fri2Xl2wxLstlMJvQjwQuz0twQlKhpiF3L1hVFEC_bkjSZgxdi5AArtC1P84cbe_PuKxNblQQWIoZha1Yk6Ua-76HQAtE7VljYC9DHNeyt7Wy8Htb9-hvAp6gQZ1pfSgJUWld1ub00ZTrflwKp0W1JAVQR3TdRGl2VQDryWROGg1uJ38v31heZSNMrnQKdJz2hwipI05G8i_0Fstnn8yaT33jOG27B17j_h2L13l8xMxZOUTs3faQ61O7LDkXTc6bl58bVWUntmkksWhyy5Q1x31gnR5ODd2HYF47t_HHk5fv_wbbHIMGrWcyqsjj_pRyrwLQlehTwDh4U7aMx6-IDbVNebdfjkzT-JRXSNkiDAT04LMCjmHJC2ea1fkuG4wwfgyuM26j_x7BTfLctGpz99sb1Nx3K1iKtnZ7Ty8o9xCD4h-WxzeQMsvEm8PgpgWF4IdGZLNG4DKG0QejjKQ3VVYojVWac73aKcj7-rc9hs=w1500-h1125-no

The deminsions of the module are bigger than the negative - 27x22'' or 684x560cm - to preserve the same brightness on the corners and borders, like in the center.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kfXade9Q2z4MXH9s897Kk6pl4AnBhQVrRw-byhhJW7gKX3xH9Cc3T3UDZDpj7tuE9v1Posq1tBhRDDgOL6bHIhQQ9H2bc41Fc53xS88fH4mApeGa5BBsqzZF28qEXvbldTXtnHt1fDJQUv42MRxA1SspKiswbLJ0upV-36FdscU9SDOzo6BtqLoQWnwSxTrlrxKJtndMkOpNYbVt95KVL2q2I4u2UOtJoTF5m7ViqqbMpt7JSmGS4jMI5oTtP8VrUDQi_UDwUpqxsIkpmO_M-wSAyqucVhSF30G5pYfO946Z2OGt-ZYvczbNWxX01ijodxULv_J6dPEGSvCtmem2woBAX1uQJN4gV9BNBG9Z1xyXQd6Sz-LeGQMTF6ur6FlendWV0TR2VYJPZf2QJymOkpQfgLqu3DLODJPH-SN9ykXWmm2bb9ddMeEz4X1u6mHS_mzfd_NTdaoeLKQc12ckzgXIAUvoKWWrVooUBO-Q04VYrjtY6uPnNBd4WvaOU7zOuyGx1-eLBlIAR4_snxxjTrfCdbNP34Gh1mX-QrUuuk_RHGQ9KBpagUznGDS0j07iy5s0vbvurP1iZ7Ns6cwgTaIs7sUKParFHPMcc-VXB18ebp4Q=w1500-h1125-no

Next series coming soon....
Mixing box
Negative carrier

Randy Moe
1-Oct-2016, 07:33
You may want to consider Pierre's comment on fans, http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?133231-De-Vere-Enlarger-factory

blindpig
2-Oct-2016, 07:32
For some reason I can't open the pictures in your last two entries. Is anyone else having trouble with this?

Fred L
2-Oct-2016, 07:47
nope, can't see following photos either.

choiliefan
2-Oct-2016, 11:49
I can't see them either.

Cor
3-Oct-2016, 07:24
No pictures visible for me either..

mamanton
7-Oct-2016, 08:16
Sorry!
Can anybody see the pictures now?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/gWICwQjXKqlZYMuej2gOIc-M4yQ5DaEne5lZV5cCOyudv2Y8UB3j2Jy4cxLcdjUmNT3yeKb42GB1x4XdhiZ5RsLtu7kM5Og867sfOJP1FSFlW3cDYApQ32OvIHtOOkFsAor73WUcGm3Qi3hNONYyD8Q0nkd4TuSpsMohroq8HM8q6T5Kkx_HLRUPQQk1OuPmmQoKotCtFtVJXpyPWdo_KOqT6HUHKvPbWcyA0TbP-J86ZlR5_xLajqsTgNuz_rjeJRnXa9VoMOLHdpnx_nQ92wpeQvKrrGh-YVnqsc4Y9rU0Vf5DP9oJ9R0ytrig4-dU0orU09erv5VX9FZr9qUY45zNjgUl3ZAmO35KZqhPchFVNCxYDsFi7ueW8djEiUp9sJeFF_lmwJwjSZplE2EfQ5G3mvWpw4efbHlM1PZ21xnJ8VWWBQqxt5OK7rvTBxa9tN5shHg-dk5VH2SPYE9b7HZmIIfWSDK1UWB5bSQ_lolQgWt9yV6tT_oyP1zsUIhXdXUp1slwiDX6MzKwpV8lrlK9Fo3qJKCYWxOOF6GbUm_Ws-vbMjnowGk3_bDOzU43l9RaWX2Yxx2JrIHsphuh8iCOjr3D2AcDzQkiL-mHnvKHaSH5=w563-h750-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tWUBUbBurX5L4LGfgkRhv7-NCl7v2wWFDTGAbJ5PwM8xwWfaLAVEz5qI7dW0mHPLxZwJ7057w-yvRMplTb1T9GkPcsbnk4KQoJrM3TtKlYr6tErVsj0uBg6JWFcyGnA68v9KDXWU3gGRMw6nqCHYL3Xglpxl1LcEorz8YrvyW53oA7LvvKzrK9y8QAVTyVnF5bfKc-sWVUkq1ng8ZvU8t-UFPVV94nwxa8UC6tNUMMIjaw8VhUH7zpX0vwot5VhP8G3uAUGVWRYVAfKg1B31yRMOUvVdqlgFFjMzJzjHWpITMRlW_mtB8PMEs3Y4lvzcQv5uZ-k6NeyoVYn6Zc3AQnZ-ygY4dtmyXQxF6GJ4UgDX7q9GY-FYwx-qOPq3LHI4OSZD9OEV40swDyLTEVaxT02hiawjagPCQePguTIaxutiZa9anSM6-qj8P-0BCVtA82r9u7gipaWFfRiiXNFOsUb4BC1-blBSyPDeG264c21jwdwNVgB5ekUz5EauEYkogMSnFTI7DqgqYT5CH5u9EOnGPPM1cNKsYFNhE26N2rxnNfnMJeiqEuDQRiexnyNUJgQEB41qTQxBZTB4_pV71n-xU7cu4Wktwd8rukOFlsfvG05E=w750-h563-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7XZb0FEpN5KzeQT9IpHmRMh1LIZ5bo3J85ZOVKPl4md0-k5sIBmZmil8EXJjKB21AD-G08hT9PYqrA34zEqqHsz3vYDM-5hlAFuq2aGav2ltht_C2G1few0Llar4pj_O4kdRwMf37J2SnAHyQ_mBzw1QSlA6kBmXYOmYvHC6lTMiTIZDt48-Hpgj4gGc4WKGpWKGCZLLIrtnIezVV_50wxbwZx-MzwZzY-FLjA3hCua8wAu1kEXqkaASV0zLlwg3YCLgw0sN3mNcKk4xgSeH6Xu-a5YloPI5MXRrfz9hFLADPZWSgEBf_AavWTEirsqJdb24TC15DFClOLlfGNp1Kpkcf-UWRPMk9BeCCkZnARklDTsMLo5Gw_0ackF2YuqOgV7o4NVy88KTchyOs5K39AEfHHnJF0ISQHsBhCHTKT0YKy_vnSr5AdhgMGoShX44F1iiPa5b60k3Z-LG4T_w2O5LPb8-k2HWZrvPZZiPntL1aYXmBok0S9o815W4-8TsZ3Xwga1h2qb01dux2hd9kfCxOCAU-EP1hmfe4MknFSnw-4FLHq9EiWQ34Mm0nR8k0sN4vbDxWwRHu-DlatJWTMYf4RajD1kaqF_fZV02TAx8vNfn=w750-h563-no

Randy Moe
7-Oct-2016, 08:26
Yes

mamanton
7-Oct-2016, 12:11
Perfect. Let me repeat some photos.

The enlarger skeleton
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/oRJ5sYIHPfqZvB00izRZMlVp619J9gUqNdMcCGsxuZB0rHBZQwrvMEuVCQxwPaRTcNMvP58XauVrS7RV6QnoTvE1evi5n7guyRKNtA-oUCquoeXpP_ASRgpLvRb8VnJM_rn1fCgsiOc0W6Zb63cyWwqALBZJKk1KnvOfP1Nk4eV6XjmDwn8XVntOQyzJ1JzOxY07bkSviIGH91OZpDK-WsnU1gQFTMv3xz9RgLyPoM5i34PTIAFlXU2W4lGgpLnHC4eZp3eumRpXga5tT7fQKGeaG1RjU8KAuim-nf04ZS_CQ0qegOMpwM9gqOVpdJn0Vaa1b8J362iNZxoZlPZOc64UcoqiFLOAFdFO2LqdDZ8lKno5sa6C8yLxkyhvJmhGLgGeqbrMmvEgeW9lJE4yBnAfEjrUcoyUQCexdwOQhOxnj4OtPxPJxBxLeRpd5J8C8Vq8ZaWN1L3GUhdX35kUEaQSg8z_e4hygktggpMs0PCyNnhuoB7mVHG6k7m7Q1JnkfjdmCGuaConLvWb07c0ns4IFM4vCeWovW7TLqNbC5x5ixLorliZwiuvTAUAU25WOJ4hG60GggwLQYsHjUegPDJDQVu9FcGBjnHq9nYMv1QRgGKA=w750-h563-no

LEDs module with a heating (or cooling) system will weight about 80 kg itself. Contains 15552 LEDs. Fans will be switched ON only with a white light for focusing, and will be automaticaly switched OFF during the exposure.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xuXRftZslIde6moAlrpSxvEMTCM0BxNxn6YfHMTMKRy3_86s_tXgfaUsHm6fYorxyFcAdNptwz2A0hH9Js17tTPRPq3tL84rWTz1cndIsvZHY5Z8oFL_c_MuprkDCB3vF9odTs7GMnxesQay1Xphf3SdnlMnJptf70d49G2ZHxBYsKRQc2BhpZHzQS0s35yv0swmNS0RBVztFcYe2tktKDYzIoZZvmd0YVxdvEGT4YTVjQZr6FEZw0kA9ZEAD_lF8gqLf4GaEAJou7uakI-WX9Y6g38d__U0hFqd1aFvrFVJZ-J-qg-o86SJVUdCssXE3hO8FSE95DvrqMvULVR_46Nw-ysxWOU8Cq_Qy6bpMbccphi_YB1kEY2JfXmrO8eItI-FCsoib21Mg1HBKCCrBuvfh6bylq68dCovfoGikMxv7Nz9jIQU7nV_sOfBd0LGje0GbNBqpO-9kSyAn2XgrhVSReml3D-u3dWtfxssTFaftXPgb2y2uHJE2bKxhLWuhmamahuusJ25bX6o2F5a_MpiEOXqvaSYKRuFn5ggdSWs5KaTRsWmB9VRQost3tsTSL8TIEolPt6r4fcdE6PwFJ3tpVFwbTfILUrhWqfom0iUnYTk=w750-h563-no

LED cold light source, mixing box and a negative carrier will be with a rotating mode to 90 degrees - portrait and landscape orientation.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rJyXctqS9MgVkKqNrqXNrRXFVs_83P_QTCMdkwmh2cavBCWjXBmgjMcyjTuiXKg0ALbfa3O8DVzORiIVsThKiiP6G0aNk03huHpcQdqH45lsWa2FBzy9t8pq6FX5Ul2X5vxI-Yuru9rSNVAvL-5OCGbVK6Rkxa7ZxkXSflZqyt1eSsqBukLoaJrj5X91-ctEetn-KaBoWyl7p2Z57H8LOXcXaAzOuNelTDVvDTeBg98cm1xYASJSXY4rSHHe0KwSt0Aa-9ZVofX1_ywyRfjfwXFbKCAEJ7IdOHPhLFJrb2Yyt5TeKNzkMeV1KQZs3NuxTQ7Nw7Ut6SxNvvzWw8M-tc-C6Ux3NitTmIJCEzLScHDSX1JUyBL8vcY7zvfpC27Wve27qcWcfFl1SYIUga8UTN59DNHaN-ccc_JfgGGcnfndVmW6aAcXOH1pygxwHQhMcPI5Jpa-9gGxFhztCFJ45MykbD95jcIAYNbO89eZdB9Yo6vMiD44fEVp88ZH-HUJiddESSgmKhGSwgTm_RP8UwkqruVyOjKNxjVS1y0ne3JwKCVtUEqf2FHAwIrERh6cNlx1XjD6ATF0m_gcPDxSneJivlQcQaykvf5hFAIt5ynYOOtn=w750-h563-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tTnDSsutUc6JbRINXHe3M18xuwsP5dFZaHLIPzYdse8Rgg9t6x8CRJYN0u5Blgv_fqs0FxbvFXzinvSpTsDMB72Eat-mgeoiehUiXH7CB95tdf43ZWELzggntFUnqvKN0-BCl2AX4dTcJNwWsA9cmOvK1Q-Tb9PSlI6cFgRAfscCNd7gtlI98Ow8U6FvLSDeIQN7qRSZ1gIsq4F5Zl5GZeX0WLVEeklcdAUWmcsBsAlfG4m0tSAS7Xocir6lr3eF-XQm09oICJpcbDT-MqSs9cL8gTzEQqaD2xfmXR3Ewu08_jIC4d3z1RSOlEc65aTiUD5g0FFRo6g0E76ofDwk24v1Eb0ZaoiuYZ2j1kXOvZV4oJsB5I22oOrRykihEaMqtGlHQENhkfz8w0qfOj8npThh1n3cp8RICrH3qeEiq2YkX2i7oQGmFz2_6JBPbcA22ysTyqn1nxvvAEBSDEZu-TAurSlL2h-WU6-vJHk3vlr4OudBAQ5eRf0lEVvl2p0SOeUWH9UQVu8WArvyTyverQbXOoMt6tHnrAnwOAWLKJzjn9BxQa8vOVPdR4VkiOYIhPBkcOmo57gkmfRlqWBqRZw9TuULONTO6dJFeN-RLGhdpG2v=w750-h563-no

mamanton
7-Oct-2016, 12:24
That heavy duty stick should be powerfull enough to rotate about 100kg (LEDs + Negative carrier)
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/VTP6as9lEF2NCOc-OpPaKpAtI_kjWXo1OYj7PnbCBHWTq3R2hxxWPD-6BTF0eCFiqb8TA-qn9h1kNHsj83csjRXDP7jhh_4BTMCBgfi6MnXKBolAOa2zNLc1LiDMwPzS4qV_HXAyts0u7v9Mlpc8thXdf9wVHP7nRgU7HJk5a6Z8-aA3VvXqYaWxqJBRK_JiacHlYOHknq5NmR7IQN-GfKW7mVwma_IooMprZkcROXxKmR6b2QwciP-OqVtzBCN1rYsbDzyhuum6AHb3gzxORd1g8HL6uru5cojxXCEBTZ6Nfu_kFFjtsRVbsBXohwf-3PXGE4SrcdJywtLe_5O9-_nWbyL9t8PNlu13KgAS761EvGM5NP3fsVZTCoHMHBRuxVvXZgGgspZR7M1eK0UK2S8_3PwKMvJ4ObJWwvWl4rKW8A2Vl4fQtuzhG08frECtde0cp48yyY9YFTvwmtCyZnfULtwX6RJ_WmiRslIN2OtXc-IhKR6wSPVFGTKqYJfG4KzlggcmBMTift8mcQD2LIxSUvn_rwGKVcYPvpAT0MM-C-WZoxu3jHbd2ZCvXNq-XYKojhACSTrmqnDYUhktD20_gojx-FDhMZEVDpx_WehkDBYO=w750-h563-no

Fans on two sides. From one side - blows in, and blows out - from another. Only in focusing mode, and may be some seconds after to cool down the light source before the main exposure.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/CUDSAEpfDudrQK8e_IeYMdPOXudsLl89pjrLyq2PID34EAeBZJEn1Jl19JQFIQ7QHMkmTmJrd8dR3JHmoHepNqZg3J3Trg_Zjqi644BYiXa6xiHRb10RQuS7W9V-XJUmDkdIVzPrZqKBGmQw0n__KNhrKaKdxHgTq1mt66oL7xvikh91rbYQr_L1lNgwN6Y_qRtu4lc1r4yOfdR330TsS2hs88PSn-mhkB8dCZ7Fk0tu0VVgZ3y7GOXTR9TFykFdKxFsQ4clq7i4I68EwO-Udia4is6_zsDmD_t7WGjJzhzVvdDDlgkjFkVoIrdqlbfxh9AUq9i_Qx7S7F-yvi5FrmNVkQHXQLxkbojCDQkm5cvSTmIw6p0M-XR6Ryo79h566KQ9m8mX5ha4mKI7fSQoeaf9nQrlnIXKVfGAtIBh4sOHA4Zm4cjyWy8w6HquQI4AtWbIc9kRKDRX6DCRkiEIYhRdmI4eH8goCU2FHTB1uPJXZNGeiyGrPRA4LALW3I9Y5tM1sjhtChR8sF7IedThS90nRW_UIqGA1TLLI7ZePOwt_PBsl6TjJUrJ6XZbNOKr1wwqwRnujRFrntlrfTHXU_2twzk694EjcZndzEBgKYRSPNP1=w750-h563-no

It's not possible to create a normal radiator behind the LED light source cause of the unbelievable weight and costs of the aluminum plate )) That's why we'll use fans and 4 special heaters (coolers) on the corners, which are perfectly produced with a waves inside for better air cooling.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0QNKy5i0rM1SaZTvY2xHGlJP2n6-vczlHvTDDasQywYTNyoctvLNqqSYFRgdeoMq6kpZ5Q31ErfoVPJ-AAQHbDOoXD3VxXZq2mqEAZgc2YChFn6DJ3sF2-JOVx3g9tSOm-KFYRM-RgmRGERIY3KfXDi4xMDfO9pVFY9aG4qFbDkPXOfuN01Ibx4UqFdwYtO_SzeI-KHFFI0hSHPQxGX7_e_l92ITdx-4PTI7ZTo3Vrz22XsPCDMDHO1-lAS_Y7X5U-MQUuyseS6GCylyYdP7rvr2I_ZFXF8BQ9Y1aprOnLHEuX_S7u5e7wOEo9yDMMxIf_1VZsf5xGI3dwB6Tal-DqrWZFN-q_Jrp0sUnvGQsfFBT27b263chSasP6pmjs3auG44R6JNXSQL5Pi8DGcKBNEifGj8SLZt7-wq7yWU-PvSgoHjaJTpy0sXfrkzJp-_fxtlsOkBzpCVbiTVgYqBF3Zgt9cxjJR8egp9ILjAbO6uuG2Gf4ydqBrQQ3eg5zQICSUGQK6daK4aXYR4LwuyFJ4KNUAj6iTYS3oQcc9Fv-nTsXgfqZTu305T79thZJnpS80SCKXb1O1_bz-_WjhAANHugQ0i3Gim98BOSeN2RuuLEuLJ=w750-h547-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/SL9wB_isFXrCRrYnLBqApbA3wk7vJ1M-0lLX5yikAITGFy5IVKmOGq_q44bVgQJehDt_7tl3_yEY7XcBPvCKRquiTxmNmK6czZ7foHzMLHWP00dt9SxTZQWSrh8_JWipXqelVSJxrc1NJG_9DoPQzP1PttYFVag6gcHis74GIfbbC-3YC1aAVFXoSWTJfocPyw6K87JuRO6BMSV7eInX_jbBEUyi7yut-P70FW9gwaHNcfFh9ywHaZMQJHG17KdTus3gkkNtPxijIPZj_AFk7E7ZYZEbKPTnv6odatJBVHxR89qOcVplHwzzkZO0D_PPO8A0LcUQ1v0QsNBvZ7JMRaCq8CoXEPOPPUyoNehb5HtOWOAkKdEX6zX7zIDFq8x7tDGCxL2Dx8-1PTy2H0vcxDIM9tZVg4IJgzUo-m-sO0C3H8AFH8-dpCV1VFwIuLHS_1OeX0xfSjmoxPpFRK41WM-uzbuaggM2d1ZZTyWvCkdS10-0PGBui-4rzHHbDZZZGJeU0lKv1N5ddpUezpB79zWY0vYk0fkaOdwPjUCFvZCORYu0uCWKXESukr-j4_zyNNLB60oaiBx21U7lBsTmejwEG2ZN3nYQvV02AB2ZPK8cn9mn=w750-h563-no

bob carnie
7-Oct-2016, 12:34
I am completely impressed with this new information, I do not see yet how you plan to keep the negative flat and in synch with the wall you are exposing, but judging from what
I am seeing here you have something clever in mind.

If this enlarger is for sale in future, I am predicting it would be over 50thousand Euro's without even breathing hard.

mamanton
8-Oct-2016, 03:40
I am completely impressed with this new information, I do not see yet how you plan to keep the negative flat and in synch with the wall you are exposing, but judging from what
I am seeing here you have something clever in mind.

If this enlarger is for sale in future, I am predicting it would be over 50thousand Euro's without even breathing hard.

Thanks, Bob!
It's hard to estimate the total cost of the project now. But, hopefully, the price would be less than 50 thousands euros )) We'll see. All the prices you can check on the heilandelectronic.de website.

So, the next part is a mixing box.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HuYSO0X9s58-S3q5QFOC1lAiLfEXeyvtPfYRPPlEOo9npsPJMaX5T5pakq74MzJ8yf_kALvHG8Y31-G0YrbtuSQEMnMfsSmhFdiD1eX653ZANootaOng4uouvwyvpJN5EvezHDYu3P5J_jOOw4eUZ-Oxp-xPIpAznK07t0BGNuE0KxxkdylCaBx_BBHaDThLdDo5cOO636ntEcghV-qsIsi0M6z-xu2-pCIUOChTBx1hJ_FHt-RDn9U5Db4UvU5jXNiOUO0asfgPMTon79JXdLiWlMlex1Mo2tDLEi3X93813jDq2KI158xnoGxfhAks38FFRjqFeAIvAWQzjPRBCkcOA_BWre4osRjACUL7IMBPjTlEsdI1YNstNmFCKDQGTkyDGW1Zpna0ZEYa6AFPUkJrzKZa0yq1w0aaERBa0jbeS5z9fV7MrfYEXQknh1ekPX138n4WazO0q39hY4-2BgeOXoliEOjmFE1ftszlyw6uROHFPjVmZEp3u_-5WpuunzEEHuTJImYdk37pXDUwxCywXyacdZZG8xeV8s4rDZLFIB3otMTyKcpzYgDr5gU_-RbPI5XzAkeEbsu1mQ6r0sgFyoLAJ25MHvgoE8kfYuzEzun1=w750-h563-no

It's not really necessary to mix the light from the LEDs, because it is diffused enough itself. Mixing box - it's a kind of gap in between the Light source and a Negative carrier to stop the warm air from the LEDs. Plus of course to mix a little bit the light with a milk glass.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/aHxJiOMgzS4wxkF8KntOE1I83XCKJ52vz7kCV07Zb5OvSgPoFKU-K25t1-X5ggbw1Z8VP6K7PIVk2xhIpLTeaT5tDFUPEQIRPNLEAbyvQigNsGtHo350xrLNtYT_3I2ejDF3uk6e-3XAM5A_gAWTXbejAAqM1Sz1GYtcAMgZnuIaskCXtid0Mjmz4_9zrmnExXcqwahmS0DK2wSDCiaSdSQ3gvnwKEy-tDjLEWmLReCaYJ7Ij8qhcFcu2ctyqTlk8nvoFRhcd9tOBzwSPnIon4D6wDgxqOUKF044OzoD35IiI7pRptHnadG8LXWUfyQ-vxNUzDHgOe0JQ1DOjUxILcJoc-XEWiU29ajH6HPdFuMhgyCjQIOZTr1KFdzlu1hiTE39Xs574vGnPLxziTbvEB0V-EJ6-o6lU8KAlrKo1ghv2CS-OQMnaQBGnMBomWP-qsibtGkysGk5EhZ7CfgtKhiTSEjYsv3bho-BZ9utzm2Je-yT3KYR_ukHuL5S07VrwrZN7Y0nyMj6IeK4Wld2Xjz2zcPVOECh-QXWfAGTVsReOjG5Q8qJhj_8iDN0iBCGGoRK2dCmZJm79ylgAk3Mi-zisHW5eWCBuYHHRt1a6R-2nLG7=w750-h563-no

Mixing box will fits the LED cold light source with a special screws, like Durst were put on some years ago. Mr. Heiland was very lucky to find some of them on the market.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/aZkm9V161P2QE2cInmgK6mC9XcBm_eTpIFYGz57jmTNo8q3uKNy_SPFhGu0ODfoev67MrZyAD7jk1mSl5jInZ9vSpzl95fGQUi6uuoR_fs8ACIcQrPeU_Ulvy8OkPa_HZUaxcMfY5AxwgrWgaOBVrfC---Nr2ilCJ2yLB_Ezf0Jm0OlFoJYu0zQTswwDzLnsYvpu5xPxNBTC8ohx3DlLIJOhHetLVqwjugUsnO0-G8y_ISyqemV4XLW1s602sdXqZIUX5OZLHkeS5V3C9LxcL3vTUWh1UZBIEDPkDVv4wbZ663DmJ-tZVtbKveWxzic113UdNIAPL6B5ghANt9NNPaO6Fimq1YZl5Hbw-yYYlFQUIh0doykByio2kUgJ6_C1DDpXKV4igHHjAoBY9h_ue4RTZgzytgDAKN4KqVY6Qa2YKbUwOvrbfC3L1CDxUfmPw0GI5BTPv_7rE-HV-NxJpa5wiCpBQyYF5WqnnZetMudlaUqfAPyLX3uDJX-1bwp4rpEZWucBEW6aZJBkT8r6cq_ExCvD6u2WLvv86EHwKlkaWPQMaqmNGGYRO5-_koDyq29jzgGZnCS67ifesrOZrVWODmKW0KnPlU35dLWfITbR9KVD=w750-h563-no

On the borders of the Mixing box there are special wings to lead away the warm air.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tsrTWnADLOuZ2o5xHO1GqJFlmyZANOClSSH3TXtb15Eb-n3oZi2Wdv8r0XWeps5oo3fRbik4ykwUWzKlNa-xd3DoQWO6d53M8ZitNMRddNtS8O-KcGx0Kx6t61zwMv0KhNFW8CqOpP5uuY4JZmcGOb1KcBsu0tWE1Pfm79Hw135Aw4nJG8rVFabsDnrglSxWwzB2FtsoM0eN9VWO7zzU_tPkZGIGRzEVCuYEMGsTFyKzcMSUC7SqtRPbyVNcUqoinCd4nHJrPUzpAs1iJWlSkvpDeSrXGLYNQjq9vMSbsIrDxQQGCal-6yL0FM-9MSdcqbvw1-Uzbl3FDXhQvidITsp2Ecgh8Vn0LK2AXVJSp4WbNWrRisgZPVx2VEgDkeqqcjn0pRdnGCzK9nRWd6vg5IaWvhUhKGXcEl3xiKF1biutfMFeTNehmKjhDYTtc8ZI4ka617SK0uxOVes4fMhDe-ZK6CA6ddaD8Ur0AsrKaZ1Miq5vav9fggwUBw4Rn1AhomcYQ1ash4fhZ1oS41HAw0Sc_KufmYOKz3GghWIBXXSsuWbDPy9b_J8155Ao8146VxebE3zcWmpYqGNF7WrKLlihZCADBDarjBjUpxskli0VgBHX=w750-h563-no

blindpig
9-Oct-2016, 07:27
Thanks for re-posting the pictures.This looks a really well thought out project.
Oops I can't see the pictures in yesterdays post.
Am anxious to see finished project(probably not as anxious as you),please keep us up to date.
Don

mamanton
13-Oct-2016, 06:12
So, the next part is a mixing box.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yj0e3tww-_UxaSrxlTlMCAnkXnZkjL9EGfOVF14BS1HIXX7ZiB3x9DWRj8hhwMlgJI6m3gPF8_sCGhGJgwkgrWYwTztC7XTL4y9H8UZ817oMj7Q2es3Tbex2me7_wHX03RtVqgw3tI6Biki40YWnZ2fmB0JVX1MEHxofSnCrCRtQTlfczP4YQ6trlkXiayF43ClUNS5PiyCaTQiUAa_HICWjMDUMp6q6cCs2OWCDkfQb-gIdv81f-tjwCpsTiOCFXGAkZIhDG0_lAAUgEaWqcX5OX63Sj7LLvbDtrBcBP9WbTcUENXATKDUfO7SEpxVwirgFUKQYQSG4oIosEzsT6q0AXr7WeTYeswbVdNeWWMOnmsh0iNP667ClLuskt_d2pOZ_zy_tpFKget2S8gPMSfDr4Q3cPKPi1xC2oSzxakUAnnlHbpmm4xOqC4Q00g3HTou3bWfwyaTF5amfpRMVL39hEH3cktvqatqvVDcdaVfblfRlsFaOdQ1C5duD4JZHMeUk77ViKJ0_uFoserjo7P6Z43laAwaXsNsr-PkKumdud44uJD0lFzOhMZ-GOIfrJLlYw6CFR9iKruA49h-PaAG3u8QlItFQfPUG8KhM716a2hlL=w750-h563-no

It's not really necessary to mix the light from the LEDs, because it is diffused enough itself. Mixing box - it's a kind of gap in between the Light source and a Negative carrier to stop the warm air from the LEDs. Plus of course to mix a little bit the light with a milk glass.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/fkn59LvaVCadYnOoaYESkSWTReKaWFPWRaNcy0TBAiQ6ctJ27zWlbtbUrDbTJSTJg52Nk5khBmwdBltBN_kUp_IeHBzhRuDvTH2WZl0pgwP8gd5kVr1JuB991bGf15rHMJcqGt2YvGbtVO_UdmetDDYm4Ook-UBfPUQbG5DZUXIxJafFTtN_K4vl6R-413l67r3zp0IUiY2DNRdbyzqEsgRHXlS3os6uaDACskuleokzf0XWreX0Gfp1TnSCPK7xgay2fuaxAr7HNmtROtvd4NGjaTQ0PkgwV5sud8Dtm48-3kLd-CA5htgxgnXiejA71YWHvN04SnE0pHSayoZ3sJM97smeyClTxkQsBvwHlFKtU5TeZmlAv30XgB2od-Ovy_G2J29Nd5OuAyH-IYVvIq6Rv82I3hO_F2M9M__huCtKGerx1COuOmu9sGvvuFNsLmw0ksBY5CJ8yNLLZfaCfmKbzX00uZpBFOPZVrv8l5nLyCl2HNCZX1Nz2Rr9gILQ06N0rP5JIJF03S6ytly1pTH6o5VDZu2youYbv-vke-5GeJNJku4vzsZD9whvBo_FNRw-lrOEvGQ1wwcR3krxw9XoIGiyj-1u_dLQQH_pd7fUzjiF=w750-h563-no

Mixing box will fits the LED cold light source with a special screws, like Durst were put on some years ago. Mr. Heiland was very lucky to find some of them on the market.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/M1Su3NlUCQSKcK9Wn__IXVmT5BNsVZpsJ0bsvcdPtwQ--85YE-PMD9QLhYkW-7WANuOhknHUAaujbQcwMVwwClOXE29-JU0Br0M2APCBp6Z1lb_DayAx1ED1P2a0irjzrzoNzvr_MXEH8BY9rnoW4APPLeF0r4lt70MQLZHmFlFCE7bWbnfd82ZIcFxmGQR3UPYkQ5MkTqqJR5cxuOmbeUi-ObytGFnoDgpxuw_bLsdQ2N5HyRGVVztRRJ7dW3504Sp9ijlJXPRcSsgHyWETPPJ0vskuuRitTt_6Bfl-dSMcFpfL0f3L1pPFkl8wcQxJ1oxET4GPEbNaB-HNzrANHJQmgRVDhSjdIfFc1Gm6PjgcoKnKFjzh_lN8-00kJQWNCwzuLMYS7QzGrQOQIulL1JmlGQnmqj-5cSdks3f6awzNZNAh6wgWes3_wjmp18vlPGxoaD0kjo1FxkXTYs6K8lCML7ZYIEFmP2lGKosboQqgFQ_u2YQvpRhN9-2UXZrKODtsBHjCNN4RNE7FWDfQY0dFfFAft4PTjQa51sJzzvtR9yvsn1xTMGepLKU7bi1PA-VzdgfSDzrKSHuPcVuQfOiK5TE3_qRJb3pMXBTrJ6SbcE__=w750-h563-no

On the borders of the Mixing box there are special wings to lead away the warm air.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1HiQRGgzreT3LOG2sUx3GpSfEpaqttDZ6wya8a7_VHB6_PwCO7Hdobu7Oze6fuSoMEEjlpmguUga4tUJW2Q6TCuHt7O4icPhg5-g4O72zUrBS-EI2Me1imq6pUL5Leac_cQ-Fz55MNBSIheaTRhpxkDLsC_c_BpxJIWI5zHIbCg3Spo1CncNkml5xJ1ORud9vgdI9mbvsoW642JllUNQt8WZs_9zv4BPD0cTL3nYEBGWcYPdWEWUBhznjHncFOU0S4m3xlhZvINzdMwNOuXSnFbyVwCE6yeZj6SdlbC_3WFamvl0VbhQUFxzJrlHmLHsNj059_L3PXMnUOTtveFiQERA3HAZaOuy0_rLnCLGdcPCzhIoh30C9WcN-pipESgUJ7r0W8zPNmCVc5SPu9n2kOJtND6u-UcYtl8SDTGov6nNqYYs0F30Xn_Y6AgOMWp0usKchP1548FgrQ0dU4PKvyGdiUI_oB_BX53J3u_SmsaT0JcAWwXInlAqRnZMQXI-5Zi4su_395jGx3FPasbD8PNOymfOob3-g8NW03j520ZkDP20yYnskKRA92_c4n_A58mkdo53PM5zLAHwJoqB0_UDWZc2WZ1g07EwfuL-dhog9uVU=w750-h563-no

mamanton
13-Oct-2016, 06:17
Thanks for re-posting the pictures.This looks a really well thought out project.
Oops I can't see the pictures in yesterdays post.
Am anxious to see finished project(probably not as anxious as you),please keep us up to date.
Don

Thanks, Don!

I'm really sorry for the pictures. As we have an analogue project I'm not very good in digital technologies )))

blindpig
14-Oct-2016, 07:10
Thanks for re-posting pictures.This is a fascinating project and I understand completely your computer problems as I'm an analog guy myself.

mamanton
15-Oct-2016, 09:50
Next - negative carrier. Up to now we have no idea how to create it glassless. We also tried to fix the 20x24 negative on one glass, and and there were always some waves on the negative. It looks like that it's not possible to have a flat vertical 20x24'' negative without two glasses. May be (very small chance) one glass and a special magnet frame... But we need to test it...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0T7nE9-4RjecJdAD9fKvfzlsa7FWM_zKyyihbwgujrsOD8VRwsL_oIZPLevwXmddjtcHiw0GJzV2pVQbIaUR7RlqDLid3ctk3O67DQhnHZ4lfGQnu5FlRvzyQEYeXVoCTjphB3mamjLsaGjLnCmZFK-Ahj9Ze2RT0oHnE0A9BesSEhHhgioDa6CTsJjAdv-BGq-TsR1LJCa7p-etJP1ITzabIyfqAZhRMtqIdcPDc3qsH7dayqEOspfbz70PfSplW71gckIhJzsKMQvEXM9wS8ff4i1AxZidrAHwGJQV5jPzSx2-IUBLvU3p2UqyJVa77Usd6DWilvyLnxnUu88n_5dzP3X3ZJOmqnlEKF1nF7k3QIH13idV7TxbHa1ZZmlYYlp4HlfvaTD_DTNkP0mJ2cDS7EsivYv_hmA_eSFoymsz60EGUlSwwuBE-hinZzZ33J1HdEk-ny8_sj_C2usYEna5qhYD4PYa7qypSE4vUbRMQ91_EqgSNzLZHTScJv0NxJhl08szTqyBhK04tMkJwya7_lMjvb9hUe-ibL_HiEjci8WONKI6Dr8ZkEf7kQDFaE4enhweKs4TlW7I23R8ici7meJ25WDeVWoarTsioo1U5slZ=w750-h563-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dBE_WDF8VCkQoiXoqCrp6vQ7X6Kl4t_hn5GXnKGfZCGgQRoXda9kShACJvtEVBTEt4bBI3QHVCjW80jFrIUYGMu0DJKUZ61yHpWEcA7u8HeCE37WsHDpsMompmjau9vNFyF729MlSubX833E0krLToAfxPrEpLJOWIQ3ys5fcMVq9mgHZmaYZR-ck43vWW-ndt-M6Q0-z6g1Kw9jxZrltmGv9OuqWAoifA8f1R7eH0FWNT5_DhLvC_O4d6XeEuXD7lqKJacRmASeI8T7qEIXuAd-3EgssCtQWND5TFa0oFoFamFd3XXtvUxCNtUGqM3vyb2wPMFEnBvXtiDX0Qv7MTZVBzHUDBRt7eoywdg3nql5KfKnlwzbqPcvIf2FMuRZNzdqqVL8A8D2_9XltCfReGRXUJGLDM54QtBj7Pk7kNoi_Bu2vBOTYAI2gAImBQ--KBvIHfX1zz3C_Ouejz7tNdeZlQfCxn8fzQEn2wCQ7fUHzLBt0C2KbN5bX4RxwEcA-ek5ggyluF5ZgX2WxpDHVANr7QQZJT-SFs-lZVzcvGqfMTRLDcA3EBPmC7hPlXJIJy9YNlKuKweYY2Z4GnqzbUy9AJj0U30j6A96KtwcIqQ_4KkU=w750-h563-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MZ9bIxllPQAtV_p9LoxVWF5GmQg4l7aXcgZddZITg51e9bjsl0H1hBRQ8E21HnSegXLABA9x5I1nqiv6CZUXO_YX43jQMUUpr--27QYCo_4T4HpfrA6lQYTqLa6mbaUdZSLD1qItfkdDkWGSry3KiY66IXQk7B3Xh-i_MpM_B2P6Ci1MAtux6aQO9ox7-YOyYIAULULJPPdl0wHAu-Ion4jJVyM3M3g2oG1LTKrJgzgHBwOH0R_WGU-Wop4oYgg5hPxY8K9RmH31fom0chKfhAOb4bkaRmhvTAdwges8xWchgSbwiRTXKD1QgbTNp9hACQpWClcCsEXy43_kHABWKGcCI1i6gdBv_BPN9jP78bcFp1fVFwZ2Lr0nhmFHHAh3XCVJZuWMKryqe5V9FQFcAU62-A4VQ9wCs3LvSpcBJ4_NuIpnWCcOS4Ng0-xanUz2C494xiHT0VzKWaUPA-5nNfYxifd314yj-j_kaplxgW0_nwJ8y3cDrDOgvRqqElwygqgYTT9mNoR67xjiCGf-7_xoJa0lCLk21shbLerOMTRFbNpZ772ecdCAgosx2fsYQ09PoR7roelRMq-m_YbyAfQC8k45UG4rWdjKnoXBbAMK-4B2=w750-h563-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Dw453J4LBPYCqzMWab6dWTN8J2xJSjQDbd9SB5-uR_kmiNQVmKWo-ZuifNyaQJCQmsnhkqily7iO2BIkiOBll4qbYrH_2B4aUW9ZfDiz97V5OR_WcGAwC4VhyBHr3fWz89rdA8TNWv5uryUAzZ2tjZJ8MayjF61Xh6RC_gW2svVrZzQHJj8dVj_994xW53p0l6XTimoVmGI0iKmRrRL_NQy4FxYlFRyTcZ5kBqOlSxmWzlogfq18vgxQ3fjLYPD_j6KfTAhFbjDOcaTzaCgxEHh_QyuS45YSkqC1T40V1SZWf1bZjDevk5Mspek78YzvnqTa-5c3XrASQcK6oH0ehk-L5BTWRJTTUHv1WX9TZHoBAHHFizORSBo5Q9aaeZgN9BdI_EyNvpqZSpEfnUMBNm0aqRS-GuDacVmMlDMgdMQCESTwvjPtOtB-Q3qV6Um3r_I5Jmpy_CtgI7DJMLRk5mJAJD4589iQkhopXt5kXaT-tS85uVV32TKsl67D8cXP81LJ6tyIEwsc-ORnjEj1tdw0GhkHKTvYb7yo9gQmhuCqf1CYmWXbXkC-O66-ZXfRnPaP0s42uI99JsPSG-uFO2eRIKgMU49zKdZrK2fzhVVlgLve=w750-h563-no

Many thanks to Stefan Diller for his negative for tests.

mamanton
15-Oct-2016, 10:01
The main idea - AN glass below and the museum glass above the negative. Total weight is about 14-15kg.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/sll_5e4etSKQqb0JKUv-S07ELGr0kyVzEiwGNCaaQwTlrQSoVXyxKq6zMBDu8r24zrSOnMoGO1n6nEYDfQhMV6XYQbO9qj61vVc6APSaKEyYMcd2wFWgFHkvkL7iOQiIWcNJJz43yTfu-Cf6FsBKweJpenLnolOnhGwbz9dXbtn8J_nktJ9bFSau2z02A2M8DvT64Gcyun2QR_5eQ7IWy2muABGwcuPb1Z4E7giRvi9IQKwsfLw5KrmwTg3xkDYdRCs3I7XBnSOBmzgZBPTgIOlbVxvvb16aJJe-hBd5roXPVpUeHAxnZA685GtHBvDhaRGfQFwZMzLpAw-nYlwssyqHHBv-o5TJwTOjQ3szlPPNl1bfO-mD0J0rntroUHmn9Od2KDzqbhCf0QNR0GduGKtc6wxfSZM3dA5W_g6kKGjG5yMXKybZhVuPz1XdJvV5Okp5b7PD6wYYOvf5xu2qbmgmV8BZXOgp-rdUDMh-LhWNk8jTX8J0DiN_OQib64QI2e-D6Be7xQHxF2f8pM-KPzZcWHiohIlZTFNruN4Ju0IeuVTRMC3XE9AMksWbAkwq7nUxBA-HJSd06qkutc-yLhhmQn47l7uVD3sBbGmR7y6AgqwI=w750-h563-no

If only one glass below and a special frame with magnets which will pull the negative to one direction - the weight will be about 12 kg - and it's still very heavy.
So, probably we'll stop our discoveries on two glasses: AN and museum.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c7y46e3Anvmunu5ReoWq7PZ3cgxcBqXMIUN-MqEj-sbxME_i5gEYzr34RCLBw5JDvFYtdUEAzUD3I1UEW27MEqrqdyHJSTWdxUK1KOkDFPnULxhiz8VXtwJQJoeUMChby_GoFsFlJAzrp_evdlIxvd7mgZGPPHfizydMjWUcqMjEOCzbTayENzlEU2UKjy_GJn58DxaGpfGd0ICDIzWygb7sGcq5nWJA9mDJsDHH-fOO7nV-F2tfT7280NLY24BxIy2jLpBfOTQBebAaL9pz3HU9rZ9oQBYZy0cahBGYHWqP0okp6vaJOlFQYSrN3OCM2_IoFmIS3ePDM9WNMA1bGbTtiGoy4Dkw9RzK5nrRZaes12-I6AhpaUIcC3aQMq9ZZkGff4E5mj8UUvmPHs_83j49139jFNNLuqm7CSXli5MHYA_Qa0hxQi9NLH8ii-vlHvzYaak_-Qj7nSqqHUecvhB0gMQJRFI_5he9rpOLXhe9HAcYOM7hs67bV3BejlalW9qcJxldco-Wg0qV378uQ5gNe6XV2zOXbkt93f9Sh7thO_WtHnsgcJCQoxRXcsAtyI4uVQit2wgpx423OB7CaKzVPeYn68Wb0Nvwv8_QQ8mkQ9iE=w750-h563-no

LED dust inspection system will be installed inside the negative carrier!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/swGR5RQVDb02ZH5ZPgZhPEfOvPpQ1Jz8mXjur91CKvxnwgBOMhQOC0lGyddC8Pp7BKrj2_R87RkeXa4FbQ7gSaZ7FVWlrKsk0JmuGk35vPUr-FMB96LnLz3N_GIM23fzsjtPhyVnIimlENfKiBiCxjNJMxKbU9N1v6xK5YabDHU8ltjCQIGMO1TuFbjTo9fhEvFip7UB2ws30IQti-sOKNCIMm9byhht5CxH1GFz6zsbQSdjgobaMuCOVml1VmN3C0NhinMgZ9ZGMxVQm8Gj_U4Od1ID83iVCa-LI3YAwYtL0fcxJp59aOR4KEcBGer7Hgn_kCaNZzL-_4oXcSDtdDpMWjdHedF-QbKJ1UgOY_rdfU6DdUfaSd_5-EiZ-E6BUHkZsiwts-J8c6-60v6iRaNP9r9mznfUQDZIwPmdcM56ot4kCUzZEbyz00mtHKhDaHAI5kwLSD9wpUkhZF-81qtwn1aQMcjk-zhkj_ptExfwjSB3mTFuUajYmgONWA8ninbkVxzCHtQifKM8lkRSuDfnFabsq4-iQhlphr-_sJSp9DS1oHy5EWPT7a1j_ZhN-MlJOMUmesi0_GyPZ-1UbgnDCJMpnbXp7QWRAo1uRmbcKRku=w750-h563-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8ndB5F8BLa944F30qcV3ANCWSHSOQmxCL3PtEA7v1Xfy5hWXrw9hX4gewqzjbZu_bpZk9oUfcR-6EpaEet8baXLRkV9RPIBNr2evq-NvjRkXHE4P0dW_j8SNP3BTpEk31H-l27SP_dphqwUUE9XhOauu2tbjjbBFY9lnRlE4UibZoyCHF460TDtgMupHAVPmvMeOU7qAYksF-pymfA3cFRjtHHdjSS2B1pkarq1FjV7uIIDX3vcxdfUaf40DfF_RsM7mZysX5ZMWBuxjXM2T5HK82XtluntHS-BZUxEEZ-WRt_YYfBwT6ZdTpVyZ8NBWxEr9Knt2S6T3UTItv34hEUGNi5xw8FjfbKY8AH9JgHzUxKTUET91UppF-4QXhp8lGqI-m5OLHAX6MiSlImf7ZO3NOUSb6QScMwgIEUzJNJkg695HlHeWE00OSVE5MtCtXGUp56mjw76SAiewqt0zorypxeP9fb5GnfwRhkPKqzYtOUejQMy7IQnt3P5deS8WZLM95587-QJQKKm8j0dweVpYY_OzTNvbQz1u36YrcAS2jeLHGdPJLWEeATO_NJSnND_2DLQwrckA4Q6JBgkLeRRaxPJo_qhHD-0_Te4nsNAu_88q=w750-h563-no

We'll start the production, and will keep in our minds a glassless ideas. And maybe inspiration will visit us one day ))

Randy Moe
15-Oct-2016, 10:04
"LED dust inspection system will be installed inside the negative carrier!"

Now that IS an idea!

Erik Larsen
15-Oct-2016, 10:46
This looks awesome! Forget the dust inspection light, make a dust eliminator apparatus! [emoji3] I'm very impressed with this project, it looks well thought out. I hope it comes to fruition!

bob carnie
15-Oct-2016, 12:11
You can use regular glass on the emulsion side facing the wall and AN glass on the base side.

I cannot see how you can design the negative Carrier with out Glass both sides, I have an 11 x14 enlarger with glass carrier and its quite easy to manipulate.

MartinP
15-Oct-2016, 17:05
Somehow I read that as having anti-newton glass between the neg and the paper. That will lead to a less-than-sharp projected image. Note that the newtons-rings danger is mostly on the smooth side of the neg. ie the base side which is usually away from the paper and the rougher emulsion has less chance of forming the rings.

I assume that we are all just mis-talking about grammar and phraseology, and what is intended is . . .

diffused light-source,
anti-newton glass (with 'textured' side next to the neg),
base side of neg,
emulsion side of neg,
plain glass,
lens,
image on paper.

One assumes that normal-sized anti-newton glass is cut from larger sheets but, without me knowing how the glass is made, is it possible to produce a flat sheet two feet wide? I hope that such a thing can be made and look forwards to further progress updates for this enlarger!

Andrew O'Neill
15-Oct-2016, 18:25
I have AN glass carrier for my 8x10. Never ever saw a decrease in sharpness.

mamanton
16-Oct-2016, 03:33
"LED dust inspection system will be installed inside the negative carrier!"
Now that IS an idea!

Mr. Juergen Heiland presented that system on Photokina 2016 in Cologne. And we are very excited of such a system included inside the negative carrier.

Next thoughts about the negative carrier. Firstly, we thought about the special shelf on one side of the enlarger for the negative carrier, lenses, accesories and so on. But all of those things are too heavy. And we decided to build a separate chest for loading the negative to the carrier and dust cleaning. After that TWO persons will put the negative carrier into the enlarger )) For that we'll use a special small movement of the bellows plate back and forth.

Some kind of nighttable
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/KGhnFYpAEuy6EltO07K0UV3BplVULZvzyOjG9iSTU3zJytOk9OasQ11DDwhXGDAQVW57gKMIXqlznU4-GYzs7TWHcTt33r_zaBKV5V1xIrGWaISNxt7FzxJ7Om5_PVkC4OrEJniTO1QD-e_RhRZaQOCl5Xa5z0OuBpwfitIw4KlTaRAlkULqm7Rq-wUusctQAUomU299TrE6Aro27PR89XZtk_u97ytzFHnF9tICR4P-e72rXiZ32cWDDbflu1UitRvOLeftUeAY4yScQYvt9D-hXxPO8YquFTM2pBFQw9aRj8oLb7SUICm2fGGrHUmik0mShhq_QA2fqGzXfUown6ffyBgIPd5qOLv6FcwkAw1W0BBj3sXXvkUpewfSc04cgv0Pv62HTVHrTPamWcudamE-MY40ditCUwuE8fumB7Cd_27VFmj0-i_37Hm4wTKnHUMi5HOQ7b1cjctarkZLg0Pu6yD7wRdWyQKbntO0ZyAH0iGmEgy9xAQpIGDRXyX1JsW1smk9UfaShMuyAdVD7XmTbr9Vm61CC0Hibe4OWW666Z5JdYPXzN45zZ96_nQ2-lE1AN7y9jtr9vFgy8XnYnfs8e5Jqknf7JZbko73q2NLr6iQ=w750-h563-no

mamanton
16-Oct-2016, 03:34
This looks awesome! Forget the dust inspection light, make a dust eliminator apparatus! [emoji3] I'm very impressed with this project, it looks well thought out. I hope it comes to fruition!

HAHA )) Thanks, Erik!

mamanton
16-Oct-2016, 03:43
Somehow I read that as having anti-newton glass between the neg and the paper. That will lead to a less-than-sharp projected image. Note that the newtons-rings danger is mostly on the smooth side of the neg. ie the base side which is usually away from the paper and the rougher emulsion has less chance of forming the rings.

I assume that we are all just mis-talking about grammar and phraseology, and what is intended is . . .

diffused light-source,
anti-newton glass (with 'textured' side next to the neg),
base side of neg,
emulsion side of neg,
plain glass,
lens,
image on paper.

One assumes that normal-sized anti-newton glass is cut from larger sheets but, without me knowing how the glass is made, is it possible to produce a flat sheet two feet wide? I hope that such a thing can be made and look forwards to further progress updates for this enlarger!

Martin, thanks! Your list is correct - AN glass in between the Base side of the negative and Mixing box.
We'll try a plain and museum glass in between Emulsion and the Lens.

mamanton
16-Oct-2016, 04:15
Focusing and movements of the enlarger will be remote controlled with two speeds: fast speed, and micro focusing.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kj26rWrY5qhEkwGuTgGMezhedY-TB0bS0o7ZB88baJFVcyFOpQ4JCaMbGYarXCkvA63JUeGfyUs-mx2XS0SjJbIm6KHDpiegwbVF632k7sHoXc8Uw3280_NgQoJ_7ujZy9VoACqipTTP2OFba6yjw5i7cl_AdWjG8JKKLf_d2OCmLWa1O8dp5F0ts80RdUsbpf8NdPws8I7LPQp5zQxIcV4mZYCfcGY0mwinr3mjiLy5XyG79g2cIaxygca7IzLYNz-wvJw0uSuejV7lbEum1ewVyjivA0HdnJBbil8U3NBI8g8DzP3xIHbdFhYY7APkgCBAqghn9V99iELZMMY0Ay68Jy-cuYNZpo7RC4BHiuADYIuRYFmEcEcEXvnJXw5w03i8-cFv5dy8spW7bJ32QlBH3I1Tnfa9BU59p3JSmzwJRxrN1oN2QmdmfZtWL85zk7m13B2xwinIPL0B8J0j0WQiogAF51b8zqmX__r6ukoMs1ZS-GUt941_sPwpNl8yh4MSC7-kdNZ2aWl48-H_5iAoiEXO7SzmAgegtOlKOByBduWSGWljao9Oh2ZXZD_TutdTsLveduEk5zgtq2GU8PUB49n_pQKetrOzmKeA20DOOPFN=w750-h563-no

Remote control stick. Very soft.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/WLxJP1XUBYVR577rptx2sPizUUg1b_BB7DyQ_zDUy5gnbH03aD7O3mRltcMabpSQVYXlKBLwogkyK64SVR4MhlE0U5TlLNDHJaEz8SrlYCw21ms0YwnFSSP5Bm-cKvHLks9aJbjH6ZwmvE39rhhJMZS0o-8_ABTGujN1ab9GujQQP-eDIpCHp1SMVvnPApdSTBj7BmWPD0Q6nes0Z08G1fyVW_JfY5c3AAPhtDT8__6uil1U1ApTCDv_vjgXMMp8ira87vREDOHt4hVJRqAtxCc-uIJjjOi21_EYqLOY6RLfga8tpcQLgM5hr-vnaRbSNRAVfr2Gtx8SDQ0xSRiACa_ero0uHs6oX0OEDBOVR3NDJZ6VdF5FXazEv2hqE9q_m_66uMRsnXoWHmp8CAg0FJ2J6qWncAGbXeqIiQrQolsUuUmIjohApUWUw19gWKAfVjZ4dYyxSv-T7U9jV4bhGX6YCB5YvTaFkjIXHba6HHjLf-EorqL4skLyAFeIklv8YWQXpFJE0biDBForrChOWTrHhCCrQXEagrNEjXav29XGvo3saJsb9fKq5cx92plUdlAqT8fbkM1Jy9iAtXvmnFp-KF3shRP3gg_3IZvLBPx2JiZT=w750-h563-no

Lasers for self allineation.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ElI6KoxAB6qXusnlOrbLVRJgpmJ8n4caVTIfYeA2wD_5O9SxCr7DjLV0J8-M4j0DayUWaeqIFWblUUsh4_M2w6DR4_zsR3nIP3CS-_B1cWBnUow9ux0C0yeke8m0yzUxM8x_gsgK09yf-luyuaKbfxIFNkxbXAMxH_R0oXLFs46_5Ts7ZuOMwdHe3Yx7Iu8_Xes6ebuhOU1wiyKoZwjvHqUNkjFl3NPyHUu414vhGTnxky2jDSDZwSb7rui4a4o4mm-_Ln_StiS4kzfN_7QzWkpcVPcqDMksMTX5C3ok4EpIolWHLaYDKdUHzfYCytm9JD9JQwy3ILPKUSuumFAipVj_uLli1WsynmrP1OEqJt5fi4gBdmNRiDGCr2zgbgB9iygtbCpzBtBM-fB67D-4yLx_Zg_43MdpHy9knaCasCpeTJWZEafL348I1PfJPXio0uM02v4OwIqqsqm8DIPSNWZ2Vwu0V69W4nUwMZt4jwqkn6Oghob7VgsJYTW7t1jtMVveyUdXZiIKymCZsG6io9LWrvoqyepRTQJs6svhZo7Bm0oBBf0dK6oZpxlsslUetwNXzRF7ECfiDVHKhnFcwUPaAEBKlTHFy6MWopl1uDcWg0dv=w750-h563-no

bob carnie
16-Oct-2016, 07:25
I must say I am super impressed with this project, being an owner of a super size enlarger, I completely understand all the areas of technical problems that you will encounter along the way,
and it seems you are addressing them in a very robust and thoughtful way.


Now here are my big questions if you don't mind.

First - why the hell are you doing this ?? as it is a major undertaking and I can imagine not cheap
Two - are you thinking of manufacturing this to sell, I can maybe think of three people in North America that would want one, ( I include myself in the three)
Though its going to be the price of a luxury car once you get the enlarger you need to get the Camera as well.


Second line of questions

What benefit do you see beside the obvious magnification decrease in enlarging whereas a 40 x48 inch print is a 2 x magnification which done right will offer the good
printer a magnificent platform to work from.
Do you not see the Camera taking side of this to be a factor that actually decreases your end worth... for example
If I expose a sheet of film with an 8 x10 camera and make a 40 x 48 inch print its about a 4 x mag which I have done many times with great results.
Do you think the 20 x 24 camera optics / bellows / movement/ DOfield with aperture does not limit the quality of negative vs an 8 x10.


I say this because one of my friends and member here owns a 20 x24 Camera and hearing him talk about the exposing side of his workflow seems quite daunting,
I have seen his wet plates and they are extremely detailed , but I think he goes through a lot of pain getting the image.

So are you thinking of this from a techno geek project? , or are you going to use the system to reveal its potential brilliance of a 2x enlarging factor for Silver Gelatin Prints.

Enquiring minds need to know... Just an aside,, I have a ton of respect for this , I just would love to know where you are leading with this, where this enlarger is going to be and when you
think its operational.

Also I would like to come with some of Monty's Negatives to your future darkroom to print, I will be super envious.
This project reminds me very much of the Polaroid 20 x24 camera project.

keep on trucking


Bob

Randy Moe
16-Oct-2016, 07:46
Just a thought, perhaps 20x24 is max size option. This same enlarger would be handy down to 11x14, great for 14x17 and really cool for 12x24 panoramics.

Oops I bet that is a goal. I have thought about 7x17 enlarging...

mamanton
16-Oct-2016, 14:32
First - why the hell are you doing this ??
Two - are you thinking of manufacturing this to sell

Second line of questions
are you thinking of this from a techno geek project? , or are you going to use the system to reveal its potential brilliance of a 2x enlarging factor for Silver Gelatin Prints.

Enquiring minds need to know... Just an aside,, I have a ton of respect for this , I just would love to know where you are leading with this, where this enlarger is going to be and when you
think its operational.

Also I would like to come with some of Monty's Negatives to your future darkroom to print, I will be super envious.
Bob

Bob, thank you very much for this comment! It really helps and encourages us! Everything we do, we do not only for ourselves, but for other people such as you! For those who loves and has a passion for photography and everything that surrounds it.

We are a small community photography lovers in Saint-Petersburg, Russia! A year and a half ago, we were able to get out of home labs (kitchens and bathrooms) and to make a great darkroom, a framing workshop and a Gallery of black-and-white silvergelatine photography.
At the opening of this wonderful place, our friend Jürgen Heiland shared his old idea to make a horizontal 8x10 enlarger not on rails as usual, but on wheels and with lasers for self-tuning parallelism. But we already had a very good 8x10'' horizontal DeVere, we have successfully installeded it, although there were different problems mainly with the projection wall (we thought about vacuum, electorstatic, glasswall, but finally made a metallic magnetic simple wall - works great after the calibration) . So then we just discussed that it's a cool idea, but in practice not really necessary, as the market had a lot of horizontal trains like Dursts and DeVeres and Homrichs.

Seriously we returned to this idea, when we began periodically to shoot not only large format, but ulf: 12x20" and 11x14". Then we decided that if we are on board in such a project, then we need to look in the future, and decided to focus on the format 20х24" - just in case, then to not immediately start to do the second enlarger bigger than before )) Plus we have some friends who shoots ULF ambrotypes.

We are not geeks to technology. Can be a little. And we don't have megalomania. We love to shoot on such cameras as Leica, Hasselblad, Rolleiflex, Makina, Technorama. We have a lot of shooting and lots of prints. As for large format, in addition to fascination with the landscapes where sharpness is important, shifts, mtfs, the flatness of the negative, the accuracy of exponometry, resolution, etc... We shoot a lot of portraits on old vintage lenses, where of course also important to get the focus in the eyes, but more enjoyment is the optical figure, plastic image, blurring and twisting, the tonal transitions.

For us photography it is Art. First of all, Art! Then a technology and metall toys.

We have Donchev wooden 20x24" camera now, and some Chamonix filmholders.

Our expectations are that the enlarger will be ready in spring 2017. First we will put in our darkroom in St. Petersburg, in the Art of Foto gallery. And you're very welcome! Please come at any time. And we welcome all analog photographers from all over the world. You can come with negatives of any size up to 20x24" and try to increase. Further, I think the same enlarger will be available for order, and Mr. Juergen Heiland will be able to define a specific price, which we don't know yet ))

I'm sorry for my English and if my sentences are confusing, now already late night in my city. Thanks again for your interest and support! This forum is really one of the best in the world.

Anton

mamanton
16-Oct-2016, 14:37
Just a thought, perhaps 20x24 is max size option. This same enlarger would be handy down to 11x14, great for 14x17 and really cool for 12x24 panoramics.
Oops I bet that is a goal. I have thought about 7x17 enlarging...

Well, of course you're right! We just took maximum size. But I imagine that mostly it would be used for smaller negatives:
11х14", 12х16", 12х20", 8х24", 7х17", 10х22" and all others!

bob carnie
17-Oct-2016, 07:28
Bob, thank you very much for this comment! It really helps and encourages us! Everything we do, we do not only for ourselves, but for other people such as you! For those who loves and has a passion for photography and everything that surrounds it.

We are a small community photography lovers in Saint-Petersburg, Russia! A year and a half ago, we were able to get out of home labs (kitchens and bathrooms) and to make a great darkroom, a framing workshop and a Gallery of black-and-white silvergelatine photography.
At the opening of this wonderful place, our friend Jürgen Heiland shared his old idea to make a horizontal 8x10 enlarger not on rails as usual, but on wheels and with lasers for self-tuning parallelism. But we already had a very good 8x10'' horizontal DeVere, we have successfully installeded it, although there were different problems mainly with the projection wall (we thought about vacuum, electorstatic, glasswall, but finally made a metallic magnetic simple wall - works great after the calibration) . So then we just discussed that it's a cool idea, but in practice not really necessary, as the market had a lot of horizontal trains like Dursts and DeVeres and Homrichs.

Seriously we returned to this idea, when we began periodically to shoot not only large format, but ulf: 12x20" and 11x14". Then we decided that if we are on board in such a project, then we need to look in the future, and decided to focus on the format 20х24" - just in case, then to not immediately start to do the second enlarger bigger than before )) Plus we have some friends who shoots ULF ambrotypes.

We are not geeks to technology. Can be a little. And we don't have megalomania. We love to shoot on such cameras as Leica, Hasselblad, Rolleiflex, Makina, Technorama. We have a lot of shooting and lots of prints. As for large format, in addition to fascination with the landscapes where sharpness is important, shifts, mtfs, the flatness of the negative, the accuracy of exponometry, resolution, etc... We shoot a lot of portraits on old vintage lenses, where of course also important to get the focus in the eyes, but more enjoyment is the optical figure, plastic image, blurring and twisting, the tonal transitions.

For us photography it is Art. First of all, Art! Then a technology and metall toys.

We have Donchev wooden 20x24" camera now, and some Chamonix filmholders.

Our expectations are that the enlarger will be ready in spring 2017. First we will put in our darkroom in St. Petersburg, in the Art of Foto gallery. And you're very welcome! Please come at any time. And we welcome all analog photographers from all over the world. You can come with negatives of any size up to 20x24" and try to increase. Further, I think the same enlarger will be available for order, and Mr. Juergen Heiland will be able to define a specific price, which we don't know yet ))

I'm sorry for my English and if my sentences are confusing, now already late night in my city. Thanks again for your interest and support! This forum is really one of the best in the world.

Anton

Anton - your group sounds fantastic, I have a similar type of photographic operations here in Canada, except my work is print for hire. I do a lot of personal work but my main income is from printing , framing and gallery rental.
I would absolutely love to visit and print when you get it up, I have friends who would find this an amazing opportunity.
What a concept to bring back a photo printed exhibit to Canada , I think the title will be FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE.

I have always found my interactions with other printers and photographers here have allowed me to grow , with my craft and of course friendships. I will watch your progress and will talk with Monty about shooting some negs on his camera and then solarizing them.

regards

Bob

Monty McCutchen
17-Oct-2016, 10:03
Anton - your group sounds fantastic, I have a similar type of photographic operations here in Canada, except my work is print for hire. I do a lot of personal work but my main income is from printing , framing and gallery rental.
I would absolutely love to visit and print when you get it up, I have friends who would find this an amazing opportunity.
What a concept to bring back a photo printed exhibit to Canada , I think the title will be FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE.

I have always found my interactions with other printers and photographers here have allowed me to grow , with my craft and of course friendships. I will watch your progress and will talk with Monty about shooting some negs on his camera and then solarizing them.

regards

Bob


20 x 24 Camera Rental:

General Public: six pack per hour

Carnie Enterprises: $$2,500 per minute. That doesn't quite equal putting up with the orange jumpsuit but it is close without gouging.


Monty

bob carnie
17-Oct-2016, 10:25
Monty you are so funny I almost forgot to laugh.

Monty McCutchen
17-Oct-2016, 10:59
Monty you are so funny I almost forgot to laugh.


Almost!!!!!

Duolab123
17-Oct-2016, 19:08
2x enlargement 40x48

mamanton
30-Oct-2016, 00:20
Next big question. Please advise us lenses! Which lenses are best for the negatives 11x14'', 16х20'', 20х24''? Please send any links to datasheets, reviews, opinions of real users, links where to buy?
Apo Nikkors, Process Nikkors, Red Dot Apo Artars, Apo-Ronars?..

tripod
11-Nov-2016, 11:20
Next big question lenses!
maybe http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?134246-FS-Russian-military-projection-lens

mamanton
5-Dec-2016, 13:38
New pictures.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8WdcyL9hHhewDbL-lXqyIuOpB4krs5pco8N1NLjh4pE6aa9GaENrTp6cs-Gdlzgk7-GtGurV3MxOCEvlWgcUQZS6OyaZ0nhjtm5_OINX2x_KCheUsf8JtE9YkfdQ5lPuV2rWcXRyLjhLZiSEmBCpgLY-98ltWzyhvquhEpnH-DvM2-pnu9SRZvwy2EHR6V51nbJDnZdgzlMpDw1jLqtJrwkU4DFVrQUYhRgBielaOd1UKSrD7oj8ZjM19_mP1Wa_aFZgKBjtQpf0ZrmRzLV25TYFplHBcBRubN1n8enamt0jDPtQZFmWnbui_tnPg1SgpLHQPtF_w4PMSrMjM394v6ZDdBmeafinEmG6dL8povlSX9_dkWO8tzwPbfCC4dNjMPyWRBw6XARGxxgesumbO6Rs7DiQXz8xAu2DliUNla6ji1BWUUWCUnmquqlZ7EZgRXzpuvJFbB1AlJBGMjd_BmpQ8Se7mek1Ewux2rpafMUzAWhJcbHkJt2naVpV1QkZuf8e_GT1sTU9QEkcI2wAH2KwfRx0-9qfqsbBsAFgwPzFK1lwGM6aWhDB8ZHvizlI-9W2TcaZaH9XID-wnOnYSkKeNOY6Wtac67I5nyRNJBXYz7az=w1230-h768-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZYzxBN4G6kHmAjvnVQl6CexmfXBDgY1oGu9EKvieUeHl50wln0cvdflLhv2eb3heotdULwr1Ul4y11GcxKQdoHTjBhmX4YyAcA_JJqn-1wkGYhKeazPydUr_2IkZAA7hLAqrmR4jv1HITgo9GnCeuQ_b892Uw9KxlBkFxpcNU1buN1zqcnZWKr6B5qOn3pS1shqkxV2A91DQYJ6lgj1hfjPsM2hj_kBZwEbMfzRRycgc-LsIlUFPh38AmSVdvK4ZUhQ3Fi2AFp5PQo7KxEvUDH-ZO1QMTMsTowEUs91PeItKu75JsihkpEMFftQxvv7RQI_ahY0P9cJp25frLRyVIu4oLNse-xCKpXHFqbx1bSYDoTi0gN1iyhvcZI2N4nUg6hIgvWi35K4PaO5vmGVV2AVagGnRFoCQOO1r5xNABXUtLQ-EINSINsmovrUqhaCF2f6SOWX5-ovcWvzQRWfOqHpt4OwmeHBAYLtkxROpZCoWdHThSMqBNP-Whm1rb7r9q5lpNlCY8XFXPFfAw8HTyqKTHKWV9YsvDq002-QdfpeCp5f5HbLPTjdJPeL1Dhq92yhJTqniHJnvYN2IDH8q3QJqcCNo5-NEQZvN6Toz6nanCE6P=w1230-h768-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PN6ILOChCHiYLEaw73zbTIrFpZgjeSV-gnpy7zUxVpXuAI8V_krWtDD_LmGU7zOR5whE1n7Aa1XHEazHyvfIzEiiVm0AIvmqcCRxX9XJlO0k3LuhmatdGafBtkh6452Jvzl_0K3fbR7ynQP0pktxJz0eGuVJwiNgRtFEfewoSEQHF4cB3TTezbQIVpbmyjhzYYYsgQMyaeOprHl0d0xAW7rMod1R4vU3xJE9_msOAvEoKN2NBuyVvQihG-DDRzA7tAUs-lq2Mur7W6m7PUdhMdtqeCYIopuPTiOcQDeRnQjnltmrTCjJZbDYsQsv_jJPZt9cyBnjzPH5f_9dQEKTN-RfnDtkzImeltDRLZZ-66zZUIniHJPBNi_zHG__cwe3EYcEYZIacHQ-wPyCLaxa_9ic2l94bngHNRfAMW1lpb3WTudGW5F7z5LA_DMadEDZ3DvWXuJjVS3jioxBL1BqCuJFXdnx-molxJ0UM7SMuETsGfBQKTTs6y7ifB_W7kTHafZZZi2EmpfMfgcgDVboo7FsF-8rhQ9DPbML6ARtYkIIO8l8dfAXfGG1FynPE6BfZYC1mNGeHwu5QNlqlOedbZlXtCdMpbDCfBiMPIvoVc9GRET8=w1230-h768-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/M3bLKdIFb22LOYOtal43lNsAmTB-mcMfpnfNtCgks7RpRH_SpCl05xC_8giv84sIn_sjvEMOQhsqPYbsV_u8bQAEh2YyAZGvbW_i916QDrOahBi8_mH5FlaykImdLgtie9Iyivy_A6072Eoz4nVYRV5iJeVA3QKDs1bAlvNGlUMTUKiP0eRMG3sLSOeu0z9T7sQY2WRzWhv4MIgO964ZO7UlMh3wmSxa1gKo-y9o5q4WgzESB9-NB6r45CvK280rLyE8uJ1Z7phSek-HlcJSLFNKe5oyT3WA3_CK6B9LdZTH9-iYFEcMnnihlUrWbuch20b9YuwzdZ7qoW4L1ROUzZzO4r4NusYDOHvp5ZIN-j5OvwViiZ6tFptRTsQ7ghiQ03fLos2iJO1yGKAGJ1nIdjzqSrV_7r7X6mY1cOmAupzC_XWbRQcU4qWRqdWnLVWoWXDtioUTYGZHXtCf3_AztcqWfFek80xZwk7mXiUQv2k7Ges5Pnr216jYEiVnRSwVDng4DCQ8YxzQ7SooDP9Jcr1zJdLR9E8iVd7ZygfStCF6tVeH7tR0XCSTN4Z2A86jU7BqupXavXPCrMTukf0FqZ7yLQQ6pdU_1U0sU-JdACnF7Oje=w1230-h768-no

Probably, most of the parts will be precisely calculated before the New Year. I'm happy that one more great engineer from Wetzlar on board of our project now. And we'll try to start the production in early 2017, and to finish it in May-June 2017... We'll see.
The length of the bellows now - 1200mm ))

Andrew O'Neill
5-Dec-2016, 15:04
I don't see any pictures...:(

mamanton
6-Dec-2016, 11:34
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/aCGH_ptvY02u5pUgnLcHl8kY4V4X-y5Nq-PvVaby4XSjLbJNhXocavxuL3Un1rzyf7vSY4H9dbF1r8NglHbMbTQdIRd1rKRPSXI9-JA1rTmbSc7NPeCuGAelofQIstGpLFIQQun07WXw0pfImZGf9bMmwEvZkuVcqEUmW41H0HSIrrSMoU4xNDJK0D_yP7hPcjjYhbaIQP5KHV60LCe1mdvOKh4RKduZOY3JeX_Rn4SFk9Io8S0RBh_h0Sy02kuXlxoMbbw7un0zq6d_pgi0TLM3BdFaHSeALn_M7nFdxHTVf1HMRNhBzJAklYE8OiPHBNjPiPXulq-Z_RHxWy97bBj8RoYx0znG8vN79T019cy_Lx_F0yVw1GolSznfhAUKbhEIbiHJBuqeW7pJvDdjm378yCS5jeMS8Dm270J66A9-Y1fnbOMXpEMwVQKac7ikCB9SVoGcNKVyp3UHaxVkBkrhGx5_WBggUW4WptWSpv3MHFtkdZOikUvdCbYhhA5J-fpP05TqpHV19c40KptscsdX8fBv0xlcQN05uCSzu96Nd6Ga0KN_RLm1-Y6sTeO6DsjM8zQ1fbQMp9h_x8Dl4V0cdYiwLKwKCO9ccAlCfi0vOsCHiYK1=w750-h468-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/EWgP681NJ20o5L6W3k2jvS7JeEtgjn_ngXJoxX_W5NW29NLbYOZx5kpcqhnY3SkR4XTPlwI6mJGOia6LeAN5pOEUclCcp2rVBOPYi4sGZ-YV2RO3q_ZKjmGscbkNW8IA9zcBWCgRixgo8YeiM9HaA00zz9759QPC_t04O3-p-v_LXk4lq83MiodoOBeLkI7GIkDRE5Gxlr5RRnPMPhVt-XOYetxCO2kkTQSOwcy37Z-cPo92hWH8M8JpmeLvUSkfibK4eBYvdzNPCNLXQSI_8q-dzQP_sI2_1uPZK539WaJdZpjW3vSd-uHMWXwJN0WenOFqvQqPdReqD-o6rFYOV6GBu2mQ6aA2dEShinmdwTz0fGFuNyqpNjFNo6ObMYsOCXUSpTxyv9RD0EgwyJQUWmhvadWrmjxw27M0ueUZj-2XEd92_ZcG3b2IlyJL45lc5ooXBOiGoE12jWIYdB9rT8ITMTZSNRLc8eXqDXpgsHAKW9jgJZ4t1_yL0225xvJDu4FV0yP2CdW3nWEk9P0K8TJ0aDFpGIEgP4jiym0YkvmTjTweHHpF-7RW8POPgvrcEB5ZtK0T6140BxbONAgyJYlqZaFiOWUiVxuFPJ-VAgnKEa0h=w750-h468-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tivUMi6gqO8elEiO97B2XlHIbX1_PPulH9n_NzhE3uuW9GgX6psTisuQ59Ii5IJ3HEL6VWIP1rPyIUangYLMQ4ar_QA-J_GMdy-CxEoeyGv3tcyttcRwCWJrAkhVSh-YehYLR5nt-XbYTDBAMa5k-EbglVBPxXTv7boihuc2CNmDHHIiHs_ExxfGN1vvSKyQuUD2JstvlYxyzg3QymyR3sjIr7ZNVo2E_AqwKGIKt0zyI9oiPgPlTfeQS1JNBYsuaIniZeXE-w21zvqu01EnIln4VPsTC9d0BNCAc5UhIGY4QSwmaF59im-4LaHVgFFp723vV0y6CrPESGPopN9bh27ycczvDRUmfrFwT2DCg7tDUqK2oxWtb9pQo1d11Bc0Xr4J-ROJhxb_-TXPtonNChStATie-W1m0Bwh8T4BXPud0yp8VVcAvBFxS7QuDn8uGoKr5qHWnWDfKZgazNAAOANppDMQs5GKVS96Cs9v6WGiyRpaG1Un1Kw8p2aJMjZvz8VDO0u1-lTioWrdo4R41UHZJ70sIweWOEiy-BhOhT1uIWLL4QkmJ3xOyhZAslWzTneIzoA68m067_7XdWHQX_Fxmt-3NhJpyPNIV5cmM6wOICoe=w750-h468-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bO73159QmG3CW-4jFjUE_P0i5DiKI2lF5t9aD-M_L_BSbKZlBOCiGdKdK0Tl_l4uaf3dY1Dov6kVVKcQGmgZqQHmmHMpHUAmc9kY3PqWLQb9y3JMcywGV6YefWbHGe-emKUzW7pOV0L_0bKw3E0amYtnGiZ1mfuteE_bYiCy4GshiZo-6xwyRYd6piz8YZFYHs8NtfDXMnHB21Mpg6KDS3Fom_NfaXqdkkytMSR16WPnzXQYaUKQfM-DW3YQ2RfAaV856r4Lzi8HgkoNSd8lr8vBJaa97YP8ps-9OEh_l4X03cL11-a585_3_8tzhK60zZ2KqUsJSdM54LMUSgjKcfc4U083KyS0D1wBNzPRhdg4PG0U5551Knnimzdy0P90wLm6CkzbuXl_-umTG4A3HNn1HazjKDFhjm6YLUMCJ0zPzfHUin37yHjnqgDEr4-faULIXZsOjbZb7RHCZIgOpHY1MVBBkks1LM8xTmTWDQhiMXRIQtnuxZX51jtfqnmEuT5t1rug6R-OOhb10bKsituiXKcZbr0o_K7x2QZx66cgFv_B2MZD8NSkjmoXOteDYsXN-JDidWeHcopLtMbvI8lwUuLc3ItpC8jwwgLrlpIcjqX=w750-h468-no

Ari
6-Dec-2016, 12:57
No photos again.

mamanton
7-Dec-2016, 12:30
158409

158410

158411

158412

mamanton
7-Dec-2016, 13:48
Please! Anybody tell me you see the pictures!
And please say WOW ))

Pere Casals
7-Dec-2016, 13:50
Hallo, Ritchie! Please transfer my kind wishes to Mr. Heiland!
For sure, he is a great electronic specialist and inventor with a big passion in analogue photography! His products are almost perfect! As a products from Mr. Kienzle, who is a great engineer and specialist in metal work!
So, lenses are still a big question!
I've already bought one LOMO 600mm, which should cover 20x24'' just for tests, and to start the work with a lens panels, bellows, e.t.c.

I've tested a LOMO 0-2 600mm , https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592977@N05/22703108104/in/dateposted-public/

I'd say it may be good with graded contrast paper, but not as sharp for variable contrast paper. I guess that this reproduction lens may be optimized for a single color, so it may be sharp with a green filter, also perhaps with blue filter, but when you use two colors then chromatic aberration may decrease sharpness, I don't know if it will be important. I'd suggest you make a contact print of a USAF 1951 glass slide, project it with green light and with a mix of green+blue to see the difference.

An option is to use the same ULF lens that was used for taking the picture, then fall off may cancel well (adjusting aperture) and also any distorsion will cancel.

Possibly a camera lens may work better than the LOMO if you are not to use monochromatic light for the enlargement.


Another suggestion is to use solar energy fresnel lenses to make the condensers. I'm doing the same than you but for 11x14, and I bought 15" fresnels to test that.

For the split grade, I plan to use a RGB light source, for the moment I made a preliminar test with that:

158415

I press blue, I make an exposition, then I press green, I make the other, then I press Red to stop, it is like placing a red filter under enlarger lens.

I plan to use directly these LEDs :

158416

Then, rather than using filters with white LEDs, the idea is to activate different color LEDs for the right time.


To test the fresnel condenser system I also made a preliminar test, using an slide projector to hit the back of a cambo 8x10 but with 15" fresnel placed where the GG was instead, I glued for testing (3M Remount spray) a test negative to glass than was beyond the fresnel, I used a Sironar-N 300 as enlarger lens. This setup was to test the fresnel working as condenser. I also used cigarette smoke to see projection cones (normally I don't smoke !! :) )

Regards


PD: If you end using a camera lens as enlarger lens perhaps it can be a bit optimized for close distance by reducing the distance between front and rear cell, this is removing spacer shim and screwing a bit more front cell until maximum sharpness is achieved. This also may be tested by projecting that contact copy of the USAF 1951 glass slide.

Randy Moe
7-Dec-2016, 13:57
please! Anybody tell me you see the pictures!
And please say wow ))

wow!

Pere Casals
7-Dec-2016, 14:04
please! Anybody tell me you see the pictures!
And please say wow ))

wow !

interneg
7-Dec-2016, 14:15
I've tested a LOMO 0-2 600mm , https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592977@N05/22703108104/in/dateposted-public/

I'd say it may be good with graded contrast paper, but not as sharp for variable contrast paper. I guess that this reproduction lens may be optimized for a single color, so it may be sharp with a green filter, also perhaps with blue filter, but when you use two colors then chromatic aberration may decrease sharpness, I don't know if it will be important. I suggest you make a contact print of a USAF 1951 glass slide, project it with green light and with a mix of green+blue to see the difference.


From the available evidence (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?74683-Nice-russian-glasses-at-bargain-prices-Kaelar-165mm-and-Lomo-O-2-600mm&p=712490&viewfull=1#post712490), the O-2 you mention seems to be an apochromat - which makes me suspect your testing methods rather more than the lens - especially as the design mentioned should be more than capable of focusing green & blue light accurately.

Heiland's LED systems are considerably more sophisticated (and usefully matched to peak paper sensitivities) than the bizarre mish-mash of cheap components you are suggesting. They are expensive for a reason.

Pere Casals
7-Dec-2016, 15:21
From the available evidence (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?74683-Nice-russian-glasses-at-bargain-prices-Kaelar-165mm-and-Lomo-O-2-600mm&p=712490&viewfull=1#post712490), the O-2 you mention seems to be an apochromat - which makes me suspect your testing methods rather more than the lens - especially as the design mentioned should be more than capable of focusing green & blue light accurately.


With the LOMO I made informal tests, yes... it seems apochromat to me as there are no colour fringes, so lateral chromatic aberration looks corrected, but I was suspecting that longitudinal chromatic aberration is not very well corrected, an ucranian user told me that they were using monochromatic light to improve results. Perhaps Apochromatism has degrees of performance...

The link states 35 Lp/mm in the center and 12 in the corners... I'd said less, I found LOMO less sharp than a Symmar converted to 620, for 8x10, still the O-2 600 has some 1m circle (945mm?). Then there is the lack of coatings, so if enlarger is diffusion a lack of microcontrast may be expected. Also sovietic lenses had a lot of QC issues, so perhaps my copy is not very good... Still I'm eager to make deeper formal tests with the O-2, this is using a 1951 pattern with CMS 20, and making sure the target is in perfect focus.





From the available evidence (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?74683-Nice-russian-glasses-at-bargain-prices-Kaelar-165mm-and-Lomo-O-2-600mm&p=712490&viewfull=1#post712490)

Heiland's LED systems are considerably more sophisticated (and usefully matched to peak paper sensitivities) than the bizarre mish-mash of cheap components you are suggesting. They are expensive for a reason.

Well, that ebay source delivers 100w color LEDs for some $3 each, this is equivalent to hallogen 800w, so 3 leds are like 2400w . Even in the case those leds are not completely optimal they may be very cost effective. For the moment I've only replaced the Philips Photocrescenta bulb of an OPEMUS with a cheap RGB LED bulb (like the depicted one) to test that system, preliminary tests were very succesful, I'm to do extensive calibration to check it well.

Even in the case those LEDs do not match the peak sensitivity of the paper perhaps it is not a problem (more light/time to see what we are burning...), but it should be tested if 00 to 5 grades can be obtained.

Pere Casals
8-Dec-2016, 03:21
Heiland's LED systems .... ....They are expensive for a reason.


As you pointed it, I've been reading that. http://heilandelectronic.de/files/documents/LED_Coldlight_Brochure.pdf

It is a good product, well finished, and straight, a good option. It cannot be cheap... Still diffusion only is available.

I'm asking myself how CRI (color reproduction index) of the light source may impact fidelity in color work. I bought a box of 8x10 Fuji CDU II transparency copy film and I plan to copy Velvia/Provia transparencies, and enlarging MF slides to 8x10 slides, perhaps this can be known by making contact copies of an IT8 slide target, under different light sources...

For what's WB I think that if blue channel is able of rendering grade 5 and green channel can deliver grade 00, I think that it has to work well. A problem would be a too greenish blue channel or a too bluish green channel , then perhaps only 1 to 4 grades would be available.

One interesting thing to test it would be the VC paper spectral response... it may depend on the aniline used for green sensitization. Perhaps it can be done by testing different green LEDs, of some 30nm difference in their emision peaks...


From ilford information http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130201152306.pdf I undertand that there are 3 emulsions, 1) with no green sensitization added, 2) with some green sensitization added, 3) with a lot of green sensitization added.

I understand (guessing) that 2) and 3) emulsions have the same specific green sensitization dye, but in different ammounts. They could use a different sensitization dye (green-bluish) for emulsion 2), but I guess that would give more inconsistent results under different light sources. If it is like this, it simplifies a lot light source for VC paper, I think. (also knowing cold cathode issues with VC...)

In my DIY LF enlarger I don't want to give up the possibility of condenser type, not of the filament type, but of the bulb type. I plan to use the Fujimoto concept, that can switch from condenser to diffuser. I think that the today's solar energy fresnels and powerful LEDs availability changes design rules...

interneg
8-Dec-2016, 15:08
With the LOMO I made informal tests, yes... it seems apochromat to me as there are no colour fringes, so lateral chromatic aberration looks corrected, but I was suspecting that longitudinal chromatic aberration is not very well corrected, an ucranian user told me that they were using monochromatic light to improve results. Perhaps Apochromatism has degrees of performance...

The link states 35 Lp/mm in the center and 12 in the corners... I'd said less, I found LOMO less sharp than a Symmar converted to 620, for 8x10, still the O-2 600 has some 1m circle (945mm?). Then there is the lack of coatings, so if enlarger is diffusion a lack of microcontrast may be expected. Also sovietic lenses had a lot of QC issues, so perhaps my copy is not very good... Still I'm eager to make deeper formal tests with the O-2, this is using a 1951 pattern with CMS 20, and making sure the target is in perfect focus.


I think there's more going on here - the drawing suggests it follows the Artar design which is a true apochromat with very low levels of other aberrations & high resolution - that is if it was assembled correctly! Though it is worth noting that Soviet/ Warsaw Pact era optics for military & industrial uses can be of exceptionally high quality.


As you pointed it, I've been reading that. http://heilandelectronic.de/files/documents/LED_Coldlight_Brochure.pdf

It is a good product, well finished, and straight, a good option. It cannot be cheap... Still diffusion only is available.

I'm asking myself how CRI (color reproduction index) of the light source may impact fidelity in color work. I bought a box of 8x10 Fuji CDU II transparency copy film and I plan to copy Velvia/Provia transparencies, and enlarging MF slides to 8x10 slides, perhaps this can be known by making contact copies of an IT8 slide target, under different light sources...

For what's WB I think that if blue channel is able of rendering grade 5 and green channel can deliver grade 00, I think that it has to work well. A problem would be a too greenish blue channel or a too bluish green channel , then perhaps only 1 to 4 grades would be available.

One interesting thing to test it would be the VC paper spectral response... it may depend on the aniline used for green sensitization. Perhaps it can be done by testing different green LEDs, of some 30nm difference in their emision peaks...


From ilford information http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130201152306.pdf I undertand that there are 3 emulsions, 1) with no green sensitization added, 2) with some green sensitization added, 3) with a lot of green sensitization added.

I understand (guessing) that 2) and 3) emulsions have the same specific green sensitization dye, but in different ammounts. They could use a different sensitization dye (green-bluish) for emulsion 2), but I guess that would give more inconsistent results under different light sources. If it is like this, it simplifies a lot light source for VC paper, I think. (also knowing cold cathode issues with VC...)

In my DIY LF enlarger I don't want to give up the possibility of condenser type, not of the filament type, but of the bulb type. I plan to use the Fujimoto concept, that can switch from condenser to diffuser. I think that the today's solar energy fresnels and powerful LEDs availability changes design rules...

At least for the Beseler 45 I was asking about, Heiland can make a lightsource that uses the condensors, or a diffusion head. They also do one that does a similar thing on the Leitz Focomat. I quite strongly dislike condenser enlargers (with very limited exceptions) - I feel diffusion heads offer a vastly better quality of light (less dust too!). Furthermore, by using a flat panel you circumvent issues with beam angles - as nice as it would be to simply substitute an LED bulb, they have serious issues in this regard.

The significant thing about LED choices is picking ones that match the peak sensitivities of the paper - if you look inside an Ilford MG500 head you'll see that it uses a pair of narrow bandpass dichroic filters, one for blue & one for green - I suspect that following the peak bandpass wavelengths of the classic tricolor separation filter set (25,47, 58 or 29, 47b, 61 or 70, 98, 99) would probably get you on the right track. Obviously, care needs to be given to get adequate LED density/ coverage & the control interface will need a degree of calibration/ sophistication to be properly useful. With regards to graded paper, the MG500 instructions simply state that the machine should be set to grade 5 (ie maximum blue).

Pere Casals
8-Dec-2016, 17:14
Though it is worth noting that Soviet/ Warsaw Pact era optics for military & industrial uses can be of exceptionally high quality.



Of course, LZOS (Lytkarino Optical Glass Factory) were not amateur people: They invented Sitall / Astrositall glass... Also, in 1945, soviets seized all Carl Zeiss technology when Jena ocupation happened.

Still there are very bad LZOS glasses, and very good ones.

LOMO O-2 600mm can be obtained for some $55, what is really a bargain (http://www.ebay.es/itm/Soviet-lens-reprodukcionnyj-Lomo-o-2-1-10-F-60-cm-600-mm-/252673211505?hash=item3ad47f3c71:g:wK0AAOSwnHZYSTQF)

Here I was trying some macro with the O-2: https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592977@N05/27823423611/in/dateposted-public/

A 1200mm rail (with two CAMBO in a row) was comming short :)

158480


My impression is that it cannot be compared with western glasses, and this can be seen (my impression) even in the GG with a x8 magnifier, but still it is an impressive glass with an impressive circle. It's a lens I love. I made a 3D printer lens board for it and I'm planning a shutter. Also I'll measure well its LP/mm in the air, by using a diopter, soon... (this is straighter than using CMS 20)







At least for the Beseler 45 I was asking about, Heiland can make a lightsource that uses the condensors, or a diffusion head.

The significant thing about LED choices is picking ones that match the peak sensitivities of the paper - if you look inside an Ilford MG500 head you'll see that it uses a pair of narrow bandpass dichroic filters, one for blue & one for green - I suspect that following the peak bandpass wavelengths of the classic tricolor separation filter set (25,47, 58 or 29, 47b, 61 or 70, 98, 99) would probably get you on the right track. Obviously, care needs to be given to get adequate LED density/ coverage & the control interface will need a degree of calibration/ sophistication to be properly useful. With regards to graded paper, the MG500 instructions simply state that the machine should be set to grade 5 (ie maximum blue).

My theory (to be proved) is that green sensitizaton of VC paper is far enough (in wavelength nanometers ) from blue, so if used Green source peak do not match exactly top paper green spectral sensitivity then it will happen that more time or power will be required, but same result may be obtained.

I agree, careful calibration has to be performed, this is what it will tell the truth. As I said before, I placed an RGB LED bulb in an OPEMUS enlarger, in place of the Photocrescenta. The remote command of the bulb is IR, like with TVs. For the moment What I do to change the bulb color is to place the remote command under the enlarger lens, pointing up, in this way the IR signal arrives to the bulb IR receiver. Then I can switch off the bulb, prepare the Stouffer contact copy, and make the exposure. Those calibrations will tell me if it will match curves I obtain with an LPL VC6600...

Calibration... nothing else will say if it is good.

Andrew O'Neill
9-Dec-2016, 12:30
wow

ridax
13-Jun-2017, 09:55
there are no colour fringes, so lateral chromatic aberration looks corrected, but I was suspecting that longitudinal chromatic aberration is not very well corrected

If longitudinal CA is poorly corrected, color fringes are unavoidable. Also, the lateral CA just can't be corrected well when longitudinal CA is not.


they were using monochromatic light to improve results.

Yes monochromatic light improves sharpness and microcontrast with ANY lens. ;)


Perhaps Apochromatism has degrees of performance...

Yes it is. Strictly speaking, there are no true apochromatic lenses among the photographic ones - in the sense the word is used in microscopy, for example. The best of our "APOs" would be considered semi-apochromats (or even lower graded) by a microscopist... And there is more to it. At 1:1, any symmetrical lens is automatically apochromatic. And an unsymmetrical one can easily be made to be an APO... at 1:1. But not at any other magnifications.

Apo-Ronars use special glass types to make them "more apochromatic". Thus Apo-Ronars are sharper, at any magnification, then CZJ Apotessars and Induatar-11's and O-2's. That glass also makes Apo-Ronars much more expensive - and much more yellowish, too. (And the yellowish tint itself also adds to sharpness quite a bit. Put a yellow filter on an Apotessar or an I-11 or an O-2 and see an improvement in sharpness... though the Ronar will still be sharper than those.)

So one gets what they pay for. But for wetplate and for blue-sensitive film like many X-ray ones (or for an ordinary camera film + Wratten 39 filter), you get an additional bonus of much more lens transparency and shorter exposure times with that cheap glass!


still the O-2 600 has some 1m circle (945mm?).

No it hasn't. Celor-type lenses are narrow angle, and their edge performance does not improve with stopping down. The O-2 is no exception. It's good within about 50° at most, which corresponds to about 22" (56cm) for the 600mm focal length. Go further, and you get a total mess.


I found LOMO less sharp than a Symmar converted to 620, for 8x10

With all respect, I find it too hard to believe in such results. Mine are quite different. I've found a whole Symmar to be way sharper then the O-2 but a half of it to be just as much worse then the O-2. I've really no clue why your experience differs that much.


Also sovietic lenses had a lot of QC issues, so perhaps my copy is not very good...

A lot of people disagree with me but decades of usage and formal testing of the Soviet glass made me believe that's a myth. That's not QC problems. The matter is, those lenses are cheap. And they were cheap from the start. The goal of mass-production of anything exceptional just wasn't there at all. And BTW the O-2's were not mapping lenses. They were common process lenses for book publishing, etc.


Then there is the lack of coatings, so if enlarger is diffusion a lack of microcontrast may be expected.

Unlike I-11's, the O-2's were later versions of process glass, and they were never made uncoated. Though the coating was definitely poorer then on any German and Japanese lenses.

But the coating has no influence on microcontrast (aberrations do). Coating deficiency decreases the overall (macro-) contrast. And if we try to recover the overall contrast by using a more contrasty paper or/and processing, the microcontrast gets stronger indeed. In fact, the common technique of preflashing the paper (or film) leads to the same results.

... Some of my first-hand data on Russian and East German process lenses:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?104094-Docter-Optic-Tessar-Apo-Germinar-MTF-curves&p=1035389&viewfull=1#post1035389

P.S.: I'd suggest two bigger tripods, or better a table, with 1200mm bellows extension for any sharpness to be visible....

ridax
13-Jun-2017, 11:28
process lenses .... I don't want to repeat what has been pointed out on this forum many times before; but these lenses are even better at enlargement than regular enlarging lenses if your priority isn't sheer speed, typically just a stop down from their f/9 maximum.

Never ever heard such an opinion - except that high-end process lenses have less distortion and are thus preferable for multi-piece murals that have to be stitched together. The sharpness story is quite different though.

Even at 1 to 2 magnification, the paths of the light rays are closer to their paths at infinity then to those at 1 to 1 so even a taking lens works nearer to its native range than a process lens. And an enlarging lens beats both of those hands down.

One of the best (and most probably the best) process lenses ever made are 240, 300, and 360 mm f/5.6 Rodenstock Apo-Rodagons. I have the 300mm one, and it's magnificent at 1:1. But I'd never use it for enlarging purposes as it's far inferior to my 300mm f/5.6 El-Nikkor that is optimized for 1:2 from the start. And at 1:4 the El-Nikkor is as much inferior to the regular 300mm f/5.6 Rodagon that's optimized to 1:4. And for stronger enlargements, my Schneider Componon easily beats all the above....

That's not an opinion speculated out while reading datasheets. That's my own practical experience.

Pere Casals
15-Jun-2017, 14:41
Thanks for all that information.

Let me discuss some points...





No it hasn't. Celor-type lenses are narrow angle, and their edge performance does not improve with stopping down. The O-2 is no exception. It's good within about 50° at most, which corresponds to about 22" (56cm) for the 600mm focal length. Go further, and you get a total mess.



Well... going beyond you obtain some 12lp/mm, (Yakolev catalog 1970), or less deopending on the Modulation %, but for a very big image this is a lot of graphic information.




With all respect, I find it too hard to believe in such results. Mine are quite different. I've found a whole Symmar to be way sharper then the O-2 but a half of it to be just as much worse then the O-2. I've really no clue why your experience differs that much.



The converted symmars are much better than it is said, near as good in the center than the whole lens, and with not that bad figures in the corners if stopped, see the Perez measures, not lab test... but good for comparing some samples:

http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/testing.html

Symmar 150
f/11 42 48 38
f/16 42 48 42
f/22 48 64 42

Symmar 150 converted to 265mm
f/16 48 48 23
f/22 48 48 33
f/32 42 42 38

The converted configuration has focus shift, so focus has to be checked with lens stopped. Not every one knew that in the past...





Unlike I-11's, the O-2's were later versions of process glass, and they were never made uncoated.


Yes... six months ago I was thinking it was uncoated, but mine has a coating without a particular cast, so I was thinking it was uncoated. I was told that there were 3 types of coatings



But the coating has no influence on microcontrast (aberrations do).



Here I disagree, abscence of coating delivers more flare, and this destroys microcontrast in shadows, imagine you have a litte spot with 0.01Lux, next to another 0,02 Lux spot, you have a microcontrat 1:2. If you add 0.1Lux flare then you have a 0.12 vs 0.11 microcontrast, way less.








P.S.: I'd suggest two bigger tripods, or better a table, with 1200mm bellows extension for any sharpness to be visible....

A good single tripod is more stable than it looks, I usually fix a toy laser pointer to the front standard, so I see the true vibration projected far, and when it stops vibrating after inserting the film holder. Sometimes I used a light monopod attached to the rail front end...





... Some of my first-hand data on Russian and East German process lenses:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?104094-Docter-Optic-Tessar-Apo-Germinar-MTF-curves&p=1035389&viewfull=1#post1035389



Thanks, I've read it, it is very good information

Regards.

ridax
16-Jun-2017, 23:32
... going beyond you obtain some 12lp/mm, (Yakolev catalog 1970)

Yakolev (1970) states 41° coverage for the O-2's so his 12 lp/mm are for the even smaller field then my liberal 50°. 41° corresponds to 45cm (17.5") coverage for the 600mm focal length at infinity. (Though the published data was in fact not for infinity but for 1 to 1 process work.)



absence of coating delivers more flare, and this destroys microcontrast in shadows, imagine you have a little spot with 0.01Lux, next to another 0,02 Lux spot, you have a microcontrast 1:2. If you add 0.1Lux flare then you have a 0.12 vs. 0.11 microcontrast, way less.

All the above is about the overall (macro-) contrast, not microcontrast. Adding flare, we get lower contrast no matter what size the darker and brighter fields are. That's macro-contrast decrease. Adding aberrations, we get no change in contrast between large fields but much lower contrast between small spots and lines (that would be of the same contrast as the big ones without the aberrations). That's micro-contrast decrease - with the overall contrast unchanged. Adding edge effects in developer (or digital "sharpening"), we get small details contrast (=microcontrast) increase with the overall (macro-) contrast unchanged. Of course in the real wold both micro- and macrocontrast usually get changed simultaneously but I believe that's not a reason to mix the concepts themselves.

Pere Casals
17-Jun-2017, 00:56
(Though the published data was in fact not for infinity but for 1 to 1 process work.)


OK, my confusion came from that... of course coverage do vary a lot from infinite to 1:1 !!!





All the above is about the overall (macro-) contrast, not microcontrast. Adding flare, we get lower contrast no matter what size the darker and brighter fields are. That's macro-contrast decrease. Adding aberrations, we get no change in contrast between large fields but much lower contrast between small spots and lines (that would be of the same contrast as the big ones without the aberrations). That's micro-contrast decrease - with the overall contrast unchanged. Adding edge effects in developer (or digital "sharpening"), we get small details contrast (=microcontrast) increase with the overall (macro-) contrast unchanged. Of course in the real wold both micro- and macrocontrast usually get changed simultaneously but I believe that's not a reason to mix the concepts themselves.

Let me demonstrate that flare decreases microcontrast or (better said) acutance, substantially in the shadows.

Well... microcontrast (or acutance) is related to density difference, see here "Acutance Definition" section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acutance

So Acutance is density difference. A = D2-D1. Let's say these are densities of two neighbour areas, supose that D2 has more density than D1.


Then add the same amount of light (flare) on both areas, new A will ve lower, because D2 won't increase density as much as D1.

You can say... but film has a linear response !!!

Yes... but this is when you plot light irradiance (abscisse in sensitometric plot) in a logarithmic scale. Imagine that you had the irradiances L1 and L2 that delivered D1 and D2 densities.

Compare Log (L2)- Log (L1) to Log (L2+flare)- Log (L1+flare), being flare a constant for that scene+lens. In the second case D2 - D1 is lower, and much lower when flare is big compared with image forming irradiance. (Note we can consider D linear dependent from Log(L)).


This can be adressed with SCIM masking in the darkroom, unsharp masking for the border, or with photoshop... but it is difficult to get as "good" acutance as with a competent coating. I say "good" becasue for a portrait it can be bad...

This is what I understand, I can be wrong, please correct me if I'm mistaken.