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View Full Version : to the mods, does lowering a price on a FS item constitute a bump



dimento
29-May-2016, 04:13
to the mods, does lowering a price on a FS item (within 7 days) constitute a premature bump?

Oren Grad
29-May-2016, 09:19
Please read the recently-revised guidelines for FS and WTB - there are several important changes. Among them, empty bumps are no longer allowed at any time. Price changes are considered substantive and thus OK, although if a member frequently posts very small substantive changes the moderators may delete such posts or take other action as appropriate.

Jonathan Barlow
29-May-2016, 20:05
Bumps don't do anything on this site anymore, unless a user goes out of their way to change the sort order of the forum. I doubt that very many users would do this.

Once your For Sale post leaves the first page, it goes into the abyss for 30 days. Then, and only then, can you re-post. I wonder if the average user reads past the first few pages in the For Sale forum? This is probably why the forum is dying.

Oren, I couldn't help but notice that when you had a personal camera to sell, you advertised it in the APUG For Sale forum rather than the For Sale forum here.

Oren Grad
29-May-2016, 20:39
Oren, I couldn't help but notice that when you had a personal camera to sell, you advertised it in the APUG For Sale forum rather than the For Sale forum here.

I post FS items in a variety of forums and occasionally on eBay as well, not just here or at APUG. I sell directly to dealers too. In each case I make a judgment depending on what the item is, where I think interest is likely to be greatest, how much time and energy I have available to devote to the listing and what kinds of risk and transactional fuss I'm prepared to put up with. YMMV.

Kevin Harding
29-May-2016, 21:01
Once your For Sale post leaves the first page, it goes into the abyss for 30 days. Then, and only then, can you re-post. I wonder if the average user reads past the first few pages in the For Sale forum? This is probably why the forum is dying.


Not to argue, but to differ: when I'm in the market for something, I search for keywords then sort by date. Example, if I'm looking for something for my Rittreck View, I might search 'Rittreck' and see what comes up. Occasionally I'll scan recent posts to see what strikes my fancy, but I tend to know what I'm looking for. I can see the challenge you highlight, though.

Sal Santamaura
29-May-2016, 21:29
...This is probably why the forum is dying...Please elaborate on what metric(s) you used to make this diagnosis. I see no evidence of forum decline, only a diminution of For Sale and Want to Buy threads. In my opinion, those are inverse indicators of forum health, so less of them is a good thing.

Randy Moe
30-May-2016, 02:08
Sometimes I don't know what I might need, use and buy without seeing an advertisement.

Happens every day.


Not to argue, but to differ: when I'm in the market for something, I search for keywords then sort by date. Example, if I'm looking for something for my Rittreck View, I might search 'Rittreck' and see what comes up. Occasionally I'll scan recent posts to see what strikes my fancy, but I tend to know what I'm looking for. I can see the challenge you highlight, though.

Randy Moe
30-May-2016, 02:35
At this moment lurkers outnumber members present 10 to 1.

Highest I have noticed in a while.

Wayne
30-May-2016, 06:06
At this moment lurkers outnumber members present 10 to 1.

Highest I have noticed in a while.

I like to think of them as "stalkers". :)

jnanian
30-May-2016, 06:30
Sometimes I don't know what I might need, use and buy without seeing an advertisement.

Happens every day.

that can be dangerous ...
like being in a grocery store with an empty stomach

scheinfluger_77
30-May-2016, 12:28
... Once your For Sale post leaves the first page, it goes into the abyss for 30 days. Then, and only then, can you re-post. I wonder if the average user reads past the first few pages in the For Sale forum? This is probably why the forum is dying. ...

Yes, and I rarely scroll past the first page anymore.

Randy Moe
30-May-2016, 13:18
that can be dangerous ...
like being in a grocery store with an empty stomach

Never happen. Whenever I go to Costco I immediately stop and eat a slice of $2 pizza with tap water. Then I shop. Actually I usually pre shop one day and return another when the place is empty, eat another slice and buy exactly what...

I shop everything to death for the best price.

I am Hell on car and motorcycle dealers. I have bought lots of cars/bikes for myself and often accompany friends so I can haggle. Love the haggle. Learned it first as buyer then as seller.

All's fair in love and war. Both are positional bargaining.

Willie
30-May-2016, 15:14
Please elaborate on what metric(s) you used to make this diagnosis. I see no evidence of forum decline, only a diminution of For Sale and Want to Buy threads. In my opinion, those are inverse indicators of forum health, so less of them is a good thing.

It seems obvious that you are not in the market as a buyer or seller. Those who are notice the section is becoming a loser in too many ways now.

Sal Santamaura
30-May-2016, 16:28
It seems obvious that you are not in the market as a buyer or seller. Those who are notice the section is becoming a loser in too many ways now.The primary purpose of this forum is not to be a venue for buying and selling. Those categories have been provided as an accommodation for members who seek such transactions as an adjunct to their other participation here.

If anyone's primary membership purpose here is buying and selling, I'm content with them thinking "the section is becoming a loser" and leaving. There are other venues dedicated to commercial transactions. Let them eat eBay. :)

Ralph Barker
31-May-2016, 08:34
It seems obvious that you are not in the market as a buyer or seller. Those who are notice the section is becoming a loser in too many ways now.

In the beginning, it was simple. People posted FS items, and others bought or didn't buy. Then, some started applying more aggressive marketing techniques, such as bumping, to the detriment of those who didn't. That was followed by other bumpers trying to out-bump the bumpers, and what appeared to be mutual cross-bumping secret sub-societies. Administrative issues multiplied, and rules became more complex.

The current guidelines, and the revised FS/WTB forum structure, address issues discussed at length in a couple of threads over several months. While perhaps not perfect, and it's taking some time for folks who weren't following the discussions to become aware of the revised guidelines, it seems to be working better. The alternative was to eliminate the FS/WTB sections entirely - something we didn't want to do.

Plus, it's still free, and probably simpler than commercial sites designed for the same purpose.

Jonathan Barlow
31-May-2016, 11:09
I believe you've underestimated how important the For Sale forum is to the viability/vibrancy of this website. And I'm sure Sean over at APUG thanks you for making his website that much more active.

Randy
2-Jun-2016, 09:54
Bumps don't do anything on this site anymore, unless a user goes out of their way to change the sort order of the forum. I doubt that very many users would do this.

Once your For Sale post leaves the first page, it goes into the abyss for 30 days. Then, and only then, can you re-post. I wonder if the average user reads past the first few pages in the For Sale forum? This is probably why the forum is dying.I agree. I hardly bother to look at the FS section anymore, and I used to visit numerous times a day for the past several years. It was fun. I payed membership again at Apug to sell off some stuff, not even bothering to list here. I don't like the constant policing in the for sale listings - people can't make any comments without them being deleted post haste. The FS section used to be not only a place to buy and sell, but a place to hang out and talk about the items listed...you know...fun, just like any other page on the forum. I would see the comment count on an item that I was not the slightest bit interested in buying, but wanted to see what all the fuss was about. I am spending more and more of my forum time at Apug now. It's just no fun in the FS page anymore, and it seems to be spreading. I am no expert, but it seems that perhaps moderation should be done in...moderation.

Jim Galli
2-Jun-2016, 10:09
I agree. I hardly bother to look at the FS section anymore, and I used to visit numerous times a day for the past several years. It was fun. I payed membership again at Apug to sell off some stuff, not even bothering to list here. I don't like the constant policing in the for sale listings - people can't make any comments without them being deleted post haste. The FS section used to be not only a place to buy and sell, but a place to hang out and talk about the items listed...you know...fun, just like any other page on the forum. I would see the comment count on an item that I was not the slightest bit interested in buying, but wanted to see what all the fuss was about. I am spending more and more of my forum time at Apug now. It's just no fun in the FS page anymore, and it seems to be spreading. I am no expert, but it seems that perhaps moderation should be done in...moderation.

I wanted to say; "Well said" before yours gets deleted and then mine does too.

ScottPhotoCo
2-Jun-2016, 10:25
I agree. I hardly bother to look at the FS section anymore, and I used to visit numerous times a day for the past several years. It was fun. I payed membership again at Apug to sell off some stuff, not even bothering to list here. I don't like the constant policing in the for sale listings - people can't make any comments without them being deleted post haste. The FS section used to be not only a place to buy and sell, but a place to hang out and talk about the items listed...you know...fun, just like any other page on the forum. I would see the comment count on an item that I was not the slightest bit interested in buying, but wanted to see what all the fuss was about. I am spending more and more of my forum time at Apug now. It's just no fun in the FS page anymore, and it seems to be spreading. I am no expert, but it seems that perhaps moderation should be done in...moderation.

+1


Tim
www.ScottPhoto.co

dodphotography
2-Jun-2016, 12:47
I'm sorry to be vocal (and I'm sure this will get deleted) but what is going on with the new revisions? No bumps, no more recycling of the listings? No one searches, well some do but a small percentage vs those who buy based on what they see.

I was told its because of moderation issues, but why? and what the heck is being moderated?

dodphotography
2-Jun-2016, 12:49
In the beginning, it was simple. People posted FS items, and others bought or didn't buy. Then, some started applying more aggressive marketing techniques, such as bumping, to the detriment of those who didn't. That was followed by other bumpers trying to out-bump the bumpers, and what appeared to be mutual cross-bumping secret sub-societies. Administrative issues multiplied, and rules became more complex.

The current guidelines, and the revised FS/WTB forum structure, address issues discussed at length in a couple of threads over several months. While perhaps not perfect, and it's taking some time for folks who weren't following the discussions to become aware of the revised guidelines, it seems to be working better. The alternative was to eliminate the FS/WTB sections entirely - something we didn't want to do.

Plus, it's still free, and probably simpler than commercial sites designed for the same purpose.

Care to give an example? I think it became more complicated due to the policies you came up with.

Randy
2-Jun-2016, 13:21
I sold on occasion, perhaps a few items a month - usually sold items I didn't want to sell but had to because of financial wows. I followed the bumping rules and didn't have a posse of followers making daily comments on my items to keep them on the first page. If there were people who did that, I guess I was unaware of it and it seemingly had no affect on the pleasure I derived from the FS section because I visited daily. I guess I missed the discussions because when the change came down it caught me completely off guard.

Anyway, it didn't take me long to learn the new rules - no bumping at all, list no more than 3 items in a day, no comments, and your item rapidly floats into obscurity as the day goes by. I don't find a single one of those changes appealing. I tried it for a couple weeks, listed a few items, then gave up. It's not that I just need to get used to it, it's that it is unpleasant.

As it stands now, it would have no affect on me whether the FS section was eliminated because I don't go there anymore.

Ralph Barker
2-Jun-2016, 13:40
Care to give an example? I think it became more complicated due to the policies you came up with.

As I mentioned, Daniel, the "issues" have been discussed at length in a couple of different threads over a period of several months. The new guidelines are based on those discussions.

Most of the administrative matters are invisible to the casual observer because they are a combination of reported posts (which generate e-mails to the moderator group) and PMs to individual moderators. At times, those complaints have reached several dozen per day, with some reports being repeated because we didn't react as quickly as the person thought we should. It should be remembered that all of the moderators are volunteers, so each complaint amounts to a disruption of our jobs or whatever else we might be doing if we happen to be retired.

Restructuring the sale-related sub-forums so that the main display is based on the original post date has rendered bumping largely ineffective, and essentially re-levels the playing field for those who weren't bumping. Comments that don't contribute to the clarity of the original post are not allowed because they still act to bump the thread in the activity-related searches. Substantive questions and clarifications, however, are OK.

The new structure also provides a reasonable means of re-listing items that haven't sold in 30 days. If 30 days turns out to be too long, we're open to changing that, but we think 30 days is a reasonable period. Otherwise, re-listing becomes the new bumping.

Taija71A
2-Jun-2016, 13:59
... and it seems to be spreading. I am no expert, but it seems that perhaps moderation should be done in...moderation.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?131283-Gauging-interest-in-quot-panoramic-quot-developing-trays

dodphotography
2-Jun-2016, 14:16
As I mentioned, Daniel, the "issues" have been discussed at length in a couple of different threads over a period of several months. The new guidelines are based on those discussions.

Most of the administrative matters are invisible to the casual observer because they are a combination of reported posts (which generate e-mails to the moderator group) and PMs to individual moderators. At times, those complaints have reached several dozen per day, with some reports being repeated because we didn't react as quickly as the person thought we should. It should be remembered that all of the moderators are volunteers, so each complaint amounts to a disruption of our jobs or whatever else we might be doing if we happen to be retired.

Restructuring the sale-related sub-forums so that the main display is based on the original post date has rendered bumping largely ineffective, and essentially re-levels the playing field for those who weren't bumping. Comments that don't contribute to the clarity of the original post are not allowed because they still act to bump the thread in the activity-related searches. Substantive questions and clarifications, however, are OK.

The new structure also provides a reasonable means of re-listing items that haven't sold in 30 days. If 30 days turns out to be too long, we're open to changing that, but we think 30 days is a reasonable period. Otherwise, re-listing becomes the new bumping.

You've just over-regulated it to the point to where people, myself included, are going elsewhere.

Like Randy said above, I fall into that same category. I'm not on here acting like an internet tough guy shaming on other forum members, bashing peoples opinions, etc etc etc like I've seen in threads regarding stupid things like development times and lens coverage.

And to the members sending complaints to the moderators... really? I mean, I followed the rules in the past, didn't bump before three days etc etc etc but come on guys, act your age!

I hate to say it, but we're watching the slow death of the classifieds section on this forum.

richardman
2-Jun-2016, 14:33
May be we should just flog the complainers who bothered the moderators rather than having a new system that... really doesn't work that well.

:-)

Lou Baleur
3-Jun-2016, 09:13
Please, moderators, do not listen to the naysayers. The enforcement of common sense and common courtesy rules are an improvement and a welcome reversal from the abuses that have gradually crept in over time. If I were a moderator, this is exactly how I would do the job.

Well done!

Randy
3-Jun-2016, 10:48
I am in no way saying that the changes were wrong or unnecessary - I'm not that smart. I am just saying that I find them unappealing and they are the impetus for my dwindling participation.

dodphotography
3-Jun-2016, 11:28
I am in no way saying that the changes were wrong or unnecessary - I'm not that smart. I am just saying that I find them unappealing and they are the impetus for my dwindling participation.

Losing the bump and having to close and reload is a major pain in the ass, especially for those who use the mobile app. You may not have images saved on your phone etc. Again, it's just a way to stifle people and keep them from participating.

But what do I know, right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Michael Dodd
6-Jun-2016, 15:22
Not to argue, but to differ: when I'm in the market for something, I search for keywords then sort by date. Example, if I'm looking for something for my Rittreck View, I might search 'Rittreck' and see what comes up. Occasionally I'll scan recent posts to see what strikes my fancy, but I tend to know what I'm looking for. I can see the challenge you highlight, though.

Yea well the search system here sucks. I could give a perfect example but in doing so (mentioning the lister and the item we be considered a bump )

Ralph Barker
7-Jun-2016, 06:17
Yea well the search system here sucks. I could give a perfect example but in doing so (mentioning the lister and the item we be considered a bump )

Yep, the vBulletin search feature is, well, let's say less than optimal. There is nothing we can do about that, however. This is why we have always recommended using Google's advanced search with the "site" parameter.

Will Frostmill
7-Jun-2016, 09:22
Restructuring the sale-related sub-forums so that the main display is based on the original post date has rendered bumping largely ineffective, and essentially re-levels the playing field for those who weren't bumping. Comments that don't contribute to the clarity of the original post are not allowed because they still act to bump the thread in the activity-related searches. Substantive questions and clarifications, however, are OK.

If you can force the forum to display in the order posted, then why does it matter if a bump puts something at the top of a search based on recent activity? People who want to see a direct list, fairly ordered, can easily, and by default see it. If you allow bumps to be visible in the activity searches, people who really want to see what gear people want to jabber about could have their fun too. Plus, you wouldn't have to waste any time adjudicating wether a post adds something substantial, or is just an empty bump.