What is about the right size for a dark cloth for a 4x5" camera?

[AtlantaTerry]

Over the past 100+ years of photographers using ground glass cameras, surely the "right size" for a dark cloth has been determined.

It should not be too small, otherwise too much light will creep in making it difficult to see the ground glass.
And it should not be too large otherwise you are carrying around excess weight in the form of fabric.

Yesterday at Home Depot, I bought an 84 x 42 inch microfiber blackout curtain. One side is white and the other Navy blue. I put the store sample over my head and could not see the store lighting. The package says it blocks 100% of the light.

So, my good friends, what do YOU think is an ideal size for a dark cloth that will be used with a 4x5" camera?

My 4x5" cameras:
Chamonix F1
Cambo Legend
Graflex Crown Graphic

Once I get some feedback as to a decent size, I will have the lady at my dry cleaners cut and hem it for me.

Thank you.
Terry

A crappy Android cell phone photo of the curtain at Home Depot:
151220

[Jim Noel]

You will get dozens of answers. The dark cloth I most often use for 4x5 is 4'x5'. I also use this for 5x7. The one for 8x10 and 7x17 is 5'x8'.

[gnuyork]

I'm not sure the dimensions of mine. My mother made mine for me, so it's ideal.

[jp]

I just use my jacket or shirt. It is convenient. Too much area and the wind could knock down the camera. Needs will vary.

[Vaughn]

I spend far too much time under the darkcloth to go with the t-shirt/jacket idea. It is just not ideal for me. A lot of my photography is in the winter, too -- my shirt and jacket have other duties!

I have a Calumet white/black darkcloth that is 3'x4'. Perfect for up to 8x10...only marginally useful (if that) on the 11x14. I carry a couple of plastic Aussie clothes pegs (finest kind!) to attach to cloth to the camera if it gets windy. But I try not to attach the cloth to the camera if not needed. I am more likely to accidentally pull the camera over rather than the wind!

I was photographing Bridal Vail Falls from near its base one February (not much water) when the wind shifted and the Falls disappeared from my GG. I pulled my head from under the darkcloth to look for the waterfall, only to look straight up to see it coming straight down at me. I had time to close my pack flap and cover the camera well with the darkcloth as the water drenched me. I had a rain jacket on (cold mid-morning and I was in the shade), but I spent my lunch in the sun drying equipment out.

So a water-proof cloth is nice for unexpected downpours.

[Tin Can]

I have a Calumet black cotton both sides, 32 X 48". I think 36 X 48" would be better.

It's thin, light. single piece hemmed. Also old and came with a camera.

I think we had this discussion before and I would 'make' it waterproof, per Vaughn, silver one side, black the other and add some velcro to help close it up if wanted.

I just described a Harrison Darkcloth. I bought their largest and have no regret. It could double as a shelter in pinch.

[dpn]

1 XXL black cotton t-shirt inside 1 XXL white cotton t-shirt. Necks and sleeve edges glued together with fabric adhesive. Light, cheap, breathes, and works great.

[jon.oman]

Mine in 42x48 inches. Works great for 4x5. A little small for 8x10.

[Alan Gales]

I don't know. How big is yo head?

I don't like traditional dark cloths. They are open at the bottom so they let in lots of light. I prefer a BTZS or Blackjacket where you look through a dark tunnel.

[AtlantaTerry]

I don't know. How big is yo head?

I don't like traditional dark cloths. They are open at the bottom so they let in lots of light. I prefer a BTZS or Blackjacket where you look through a dark tunnel.

I bought two BTZS units. One for my Cambo kit and one for my Crown Graphic kit. (The whole Crown kit was stolen.:mad:)

The concept of the BTZS focusing hood is good. But the only thing I did not like about it was that I had to disturb the camera to open the BTZS in order to insert or remove my sheet film holders. That's why I'm going to have the seamstress at my dry cleaners sew up a more "classic" design for me.

Yesterday, I bought four rare earth magnets to sew into the corners when she makes my dark cloth. I will experiment to see if I like them sticking to my Gitzo or Manfrotto tripods. Being that I'm a "belt and suspenders" kind of guy, I might also have her sew in some Velcro pads, too. :)

UPDATE 19 October 2021: this posting was first made 29 My 2016 and I just re-read it. The Crown kit was NOT stolen! Stupid me, I moved across town and put the Crown kit on a shelf in the storage room and promptly forgot about it. Somehow my 71 year old brain convinced itself that it had been lost or stolen by a vengeful landlord. (He DID steal the KitchenAid mixer that my late parents gave me but that is a different story.) Anyhow, one day I was looking for something else and noticed the Crown kit. I said to myself, "Wait... what? I thought that was long lost!" So I opened it and sure enough it was my lovely old Crown Graphic looking up and me so very sad and said to me, "I missed you. Where have you been? Let's go play." So we did go play. The end.

[jnantz]

hi atlanta terry

i have a couple of drk cloths
they are all from jo ann fabric, and were cheap as dirt
made of felt. i think one is about IDK 4' wide (whatever the roll is )
and maybe 4-5" long.
been using these things for almost 30 years never gave me trouble
and if they get trashed or lost or used for something else .
they cost about $2 or did the last time i bought one.

sounds like youir design will be a good one !

[giorgiospugnesi]

1 XXL black cotton t-shirt inside 1 XXL white cotton t-shirt. Necks and sleeve edges glued together with fabric adhesive. Light, cheap, breathes, and works great.

Me too! I put the neck around camera's back (is a V type neck so larger than usual) and go inside the "tube". Short sleeves are leave open or closed with a knot. It's lightweight and not too warm to use.

[Jac@stafford.net]

Reminds me of Abe Lincoln's answer when asked how long a man's legs should be. "Just long enough to reach the ground." Aristotle answered the same when asked how long a man's penis should be.

[jnantz]

Reminds me of Abe Lincoln's answer when asked how long a man's legs should be. "Just long enough to reach the ground." Aristotle answered the same when asked how long a man's penis should be.

i've heard russian friends say the same for water in tea: you know how to make perfect tea - just enough water...

[Anthony Dennis]

When I was a college student in 1964, I was living in New York. Made a trip to Rochester to see the Kodak George Eastman Museum. Yousuf Karsh was there visiting that day and I got my nerve up to say hello to him. I had purchased earlier, a copy of his wonderful book, Portraits of Greatness. He was talking to a gentleman about his dark cloth and I overheard the conversation. He mentioned that his assistant, Hella Graber, had made him a dark cloth apparently out of red velvet material. Later I saw photos of the cloth with his camera. I estimated the cloth was about 40 x 50 inches in size. Ten years later, I recalled his dark cloth and it inspired me to have one made since I did not like the commercial ones like everyone had. I found a shop in Los Angeles that specialized in custom embroidery. I picked out two fabrics, one being black and the other, a cardinal red/burgundy velvet. The woman at the shop made the dark cloth 40 x 50 which was perfect for my cameras. However, I had her connect the two fabrics with a gold thread design about 1/2 " wide and I also had her embroider my initials in gold thread at the corner of the cloth on the velvet side. My wife went ballistic when she saw how much I spent to have it custom made. However, it is the only one like it on the planet and it has been a conversation piece at many of my photo shoots. It has served me well for 45 years.220507220507220507

[Drew Wiley]

Depends on the weather and length of the camera with the bellows extended. Do you just need a darkcloth, or something larger that functions like a rain cover too? Since I am routinely outdoors, it's the latter for me. ... But linty T-shirts and textured materials that hold contaminants??? Give me a break. I use solid black Gore-Tex fabric - breathable, waterproof, tough, lightweight, no lint, and easy to clean.

[r.e.]

When I was a college student in 1964, I was living in New York. Made a trip to Rochester to see the Kodak George Eastman Museum. Yousuf Karsh was there visiting that day and I got my nerve up to say hello to him. I had purchased earlier, a copy of his wonderful book, Portraits of Greatness. He was talking to a gentleman about his dark cloth and I overheard the conversation. He mentioned that his assistant, Hella Graber, had made him a dark cloth apparently out of red velvet material. Later I saw photos of the cloth with his camera. I estimated the cloth was about 40 x 50 inches in size. Ten years later, I recalled his dark cloth and it inspired me to have one made since I did not like the commercial ones like everyone had. I found a shop in Los Angeles that specialized in custom embroidery. I picked out two fabrics, one being black and the other, a cardinal red/burgundy velvet. The woman at the shop made the dark cloth 40 x 50 which was perfect for my cameras. However, I had her connect the two fabrics with a gold thread design about 1/2 " wide and I also had her embroider my initials in gold thread at the corner of the cloth on the velvet side. My wife went ballistic when she saw how much I spent to have it custom made. However, it is the only one like it on the planet and it has been a conversation piece at many of my photo shoots. It has served me well for 45 years.220507220507220507

Hi Anthony, I enjoyed your story. Can't hide with a large format camera anyway, so I figure that there's nothing but upside to showing some style :)

[Maris Rusis]

If you are going to get it sewn for you organise some fairly light stainless steel chain to be incorporated in the hem. This edge weighting is much better and safer than corner weights on a windy day. And also get a dressmaker's cloth measuring tape sewn along one edge. Beats carrying a separate tape for measuring bellows extension.

[lassethomas]

Made my own 4x5 and 4x10 in waterproof black on one side, white on the other, cloth. Doubles as a light rain cover. Size is 60'' by 35'' but it's not rectangular. Both back corners are cut.

[Drew Wiley]

I don't use weights, just velcro.

[Bill Poole]

In my experience, the size of the photographer is as important as the size of the camera. If you are a big, wide, broad-shouldered human . . . well, perhaps take that into consideration.

[r.e.]

I've become a fan of Joe Cornish's Páramo Dark Cloth (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164624-Paramo-Joe-Cornish-Dark-Cloth). Waterproof, and the red adds a splash of colour.


220518

[_tf_]

Mine is 140cm wide and 1m long, I'd not go any shorter than that for my medium height, I used have it at 140cmx140cm, but that was unnecessarily long. I used a blackout curtain fabric that is black on one side and white on the other; the white is priceless on sunny days. I have an elasticated drawcord around the top edge with a single toggle joining the two ends of the cord to form the tube to hold it on the camera.

[Wishegan]

225763
Here’s some guy who used a big one.

[LabRat]

225763
Here’s some guy who used a big one.

That's not a focusing cloth, that's Count Dracula!!!

Note you cannot see him in the mirror... ;)

Steve K

[bmikiten]

Phil and I developed the original BTZS darkcloths with our respective wives sewing up prototypes and fitting them to a bunch of different cameras. The idea was to use the velcro to be able to remove the hood for loading film or on certain cameras (depending on the knob locations), you could just move the hood forward, load and shoot. The hood was very small and lightweight so it didn't interrupt anything. To the best of my knowledge the existing hood hasn't changed much and is still sold by The View Camera Store. I still use my original one regularly.

Brian

[otto.f]

You will get dozens of answers. The dark cloth I most often use for 4x5 is 4'x5'. I also use this for 5x7. The one for 8x10 and 7x17 is 5'x8'.

About that size yes, the thinnest possible cotton, no polyamides or that sort of plastic; it has to absorb humid because it can get hot in there. some even have a white cover at the outside, but I guess they have a dedicated wife or mother. My wife sewed in an elastic band and snaps to attach it to the rear standard. Kind of the Joe Cornish idea but the amateur version.

[Tin Can]

As said already depends on camera size

and studio or field

I have a few, I mostly shoot studio and really like my Linhof Studio camera as it can use a spring wire support to hold up the cloth

I can use another wire in front as lens shade

I have also used folded coroplast both front and rear for 3 sides

Calumet Monster 8x!0 also may use the same wire support front only

I sold wire supports on this forum some years ago

Many OLD studio camera had these options

I have 2 Japanese studio camera that have folding scissors front support for lens hood

[Drew Wiley]

That's a famous reflection of Atget using a darkcloth. His actual contact prints were pretty small. Dracula he was not, though I recently watched the hundredth anniversary re-release of the old silent Nosferatu movie, which still holds its own creatively and photographically, and in downright spookiness without even a single ketchup bottle involved.

I am a firm believer in my own kind of darkcloth - black Goretex fabric : extremely tough, lightweight, waterproof, breathable, and best of all, LINT FREE. Anyone who uses cotton fabric in this day and age is downright nuts, or else themselves bitten by a vampire.

How big? Long enough to keep the camera plus your own head and shoulders reasonably dry when its raining. Wide enough for the corners to velcro together behind you, to prevent flapping around in the wind. Forget lead weights in the corners! (another bad old custom, good only for breaking your ground glass or putting out one of your eyes during the wind).

[r.e.]

I'm very happy with the Wanderer dark cloth that I received recently. Thread: Harrison vs Wanderer 8x10 Dark Cloth. (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?166928-Harrison-vs-Wanderer-8x10-Dark-Cloth)

Wanderer, based in Washington State, obviously makes 4x5 dark cloths as well: Wanderer Photo Gear (https://www.wandererphotogear.com)