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Smorton
17-May-2016, 11:01
Greetings:

New to all this, so please excuse if I seem dull.

I have about 100 or more black and white 5 x 7 inch negatives I want to scan with an Epson V800.

Can I put the negatives directly on the glass without use of a negative holder and have good results?

Any input highly appreciated.

Smorton

Ken Lee
17-May-2016, 11:36
It all depends on what we mean by good.

Are you simply trying to identify the contents, IE make proofs ? Are you trying to get the best tonality and resolution out of each image ?

Laying the film directly on the glass, there's a good chance you will get Newton's Rings. Emulsion-side down will help but not guarantee.

You might find this article helpful: Scanning Tips (with Epson and VueScan Software) (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/scanning/index.php)

Smorton
17-May-2016, 11:46
I hope to get good digital tiff files to use for enlargement, etc. Newton Rings occur with black and white as well as color? I am only using black and white.

It does not come with a 5 x 7 negative holder. Do you have any recommendations?

Thank you very much.

Smorton

Michael Graves
17-May-2016, 11:54
[QUOTE=Smorton;1329754Newton Rings occur with black and white as well as color?[/QUOTE]

Newton rings occur when the glossy side of the film comes in direct contact with the glossy glass. Rings form. Some films don't have a truly glossy side, and while not impervious to Newton rings, are less prone to creating them. You can get special AN glass to place against the glossy side of the film that will stop this.

Jim Andrada
17-May-2016, 12:09
Generally speaking I've had good results with 8 x 10 and 5 x 7 on the glass emulsion side down, but now I fluid mount 5 x 7 and smaller using the fluid mounting station. 8 x 10 still goes on the glass because it doesn't fit the high resolution part of the scanner. If it's the same as the 700/750, which I think it is, you should probably use the "film area guide" or whatever they call it. to keep the film out of the calibration area - not sure what else it does if anything to be honest. I guess you could always get a piece of ANR (Anti Newton Rings) glass a couple of mm thick and put it on top of the negative, but the 8 x 10's have always seemed to work well enough just lying on the glass - same for 5 x 7.

Jim Jones
17-May-2016, 13:37
If I had a hundred 5x7 negatives to scan efficiently on my Epson V700, I'd make a negative holder out of mat board with attention to the cutout at the top of the holder and white squares on the bottom side. Such a negative holder would also let you shim the holder up for optimum focus.

Smorton
17-May-2016, 14:50
Is there a good place to buy AN glass?

Thanks

Smorton

Peter De Smidt
17-May-2016, 15:33
http://www.fpointinc.com/glass.htm

djdister
17-May-2016, 15:54
I made a 5x7 negative holder for my V750 out of two mat boards taped together on the long edge - I get very nice scans from this arrangement. You won't necessarily get the entire negative (i.e. printing the black edges), but it works better than placing the negs directly on the glass in my opinion.

cjdewey
17-May-2016, 16:05
Using the film area guide, emulsion-side down on the glass works pretty well; I've been doing this lately with my 4x5's and 120 -- in order to scan the entire frame and film rebate -- and laying ANR glass on top. I only scan at 2400 DPI, and haven't noticed much difference in quality compared to using the Epson holder.

Smorton
17-May-2016, 16:53
What about glass and holders from this place:

http://www.betterscanning.com/

Smorton

Oren Grad
17-May-2016, 17:08
FWIW, I scan HP5 Plus sheet film directly from the glass, emulsion-side down, on my V700 and it's fine, even though contact prints in my darkroom are very prone to Newton's rings. Unless your negatives are T-Max 100, I would start directly on the glass and see whether you actually have a problem before spending money on an accessory you may not need.

Smorton
17-May-2016, 17:45
That makes sense.

Thank you.

Smorton

Ken Lee
17-May-2016, 17:52
What about glass and holders from this place:

http://www.betterscanning.com/

Smorton

If you went to the trouble to shoot 5x7 B&W film and you want to get the most from your negatives, then you'll want to bring the film to the place where the scanner is actually focused: just above the glass. I use the BetterScanning holders and recommend them highly.

You can see my test here (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/scanning/holderAdjustment.php).

You can see BetterScanning's test here (http://www.betterscanning.com/scanning/vb_advantage.html).

Smorton
17-May-2016, 18:13
Ken,

Thank you for the helpful info. Can you get good scans with the dry scanning method of BetterScanning holders? The fluid method seems more complicated and is less appealing.

Thanks

Smorton

Ken Lee
17-May-2016, 18:17
Ken,

Thank you for the helpful info. Can you get good scans with the dry scanning method of BetterScanning holders? The fluid method seems more complicated and is less appealing.

Thanks

Smorton

Because I've been content with dry scanning (and find it tedious enough), I've never made a wet scan.

Here's a sample 5x7 scan: http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/tech/RangerDetail.html

Smorton
17-May-2016, 18:25
Kenneth:

My goodness, that is a fine sample. You have an impressive. I am not a betting person, but I have a feeling you are much experienced than I am.

You do use the AN glass?

Thank you so much.

Smorton

Smorton
17-May-2016, 18:31
Looks like you can't use it without the AN glass with 5 x 7.

Thanks

Smorton

Whalen
17-May-2016, 18:36
I purchased the betterscan holder with the anr glass. It is wonderful. Easily scans 5x7. $100. Get one and never look back.

Oren Grad
17-May-2016, 18:38
If you went to the trouble to shoot 5x7 B&W film and you want to get the most from your negatives, then you'll want to bring the film to the place where the scanner is actually focused: just above the glass.

When you use the film area guide and select "Film (with Film Area Guide)" in Epson Scan, the scanner "expects" the film to be sitting on the glass, not floating in the air. It's always possible that the scanner is mis-calibrated, of course, but assuming proper settings in the software, in principle scanning off the glass is not necessarily inferior to scanning from a holder raised off the glass.

I would still advise trying a scan off the glass before buying anything.

djdister
17-May-2016, 18:51
Again, for very little investment and effort, you can make a simple glassless negative holder out of two pieces of mat board, sandwich the negative in that and then use the "film area guide" setting when scanning.

This is an example of a low res scan using this simple method: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-u3XzZMadfl0/Vl0FNyd5v_I/AAAAAAAAAY8/MxFEsFX4Jzg/s1600/20150906-07-503.jpg

Smorton
17-May-2016, 18:52
Oren, how will I get the negative off the glass without a mount? I could make one out of something I guess. What about the AN glass?

Thanks

Smorton

Smorton
17-May-2016, 18:53
Again, for very little investment and effort, you can make a simple glassless negative holder out of two pieces of mat board, sandwich the negative in that and then use the "film area guide" setting when scanning.

This is an example of a low res scan using this simple method: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-u3XzZMadfl0/Vl0FNyd5v_I/AAAAAAAAAY8/MxFEsFX4Jzg/s1600/20150906-07-503.jpg

What a scan!!! djdister, do you the AN glass?

Thanks

Smorton

djdister
17-May-2016, 18:55
What a scan!!! djdister, do you the AN glass?

Thanks

Smorton

No. No glass, just two pieces of mat board sandwiched together with a just-under 5x7 area cut out.

Oren Grad
17-May-2016, 18:56
Oren, how will I get the negative off the glass without a mount?

Sorry, bad choice of word on my part. I should have said "from the glass" or similar. In "film area guide" mode the film should literally sit directly on the glass. No mount needed.

Smorton
17-May-2016, 18:57
Thanks. I will try it.

Smorton

Smorton
17-May-2016, 20:12
One more question: I can get anti glare glass from a local glass shop for almost free. I asssume this is not the same at anti newton glass, correct?

Thanks

Smorton

Oren Grad
17-May-2016, 20:16
One more question: I can get anti glare glass from a local glass shop for almost free. I asssume this is not the same at anti newton glass, correct?

Correct. It is not the same.

Smorton
17-May-2016, 20:22
Thanks.

Smorton

Jim Andrada
18-May-2016, 01:09
I think you'll get nice scans on the glass with the film area guide. Start there and see how you like it before getting fancy!

I've gone to fluid mounting for anything smaller than Whole Plate. There's a (mis)perception that it's incredibly difficult or time consuming. I actually timed myself and mounting a 4 x 5 or 5 x 7 on the Epson fluid mounting unit took 23 seconds from start to finish. I have a video somewhere of myself doing it. Except for trying to see how quickly I can do it, I don't rush quite that much, but it never runs over a minute or so to get a nice mount. The central area of the scanner has a higher resolution than the full bed and it's optimized for off the glass mounting using the 2nd lens in the unit.

I'll be upgrading to a better scanner in the next few weeks, but for the price the Epson is quite good.

Smorton
18-May-2016, 07:06
I actually just ordered the Epson v800 and it will be here Friday.

I read how BetterScans.com holders work and I have concerns about the dry mounting. I have a 5 x 7 in negative and if I tape it to the glass and then it hands down from the glass I am certain with a negative this big it will sag in the center which seems like it would be a problem. The 5 x 7 negatives are quite flat but my experimentation (the little I have done) make me think it would be difficult to have it not sag in the middle.

Placing the negative directly on the glass would seem to eliminate this problem. But I don't have the scanner yet and who knows?

Thanks. Any input appreciated.

Smorton

DrTang
18-May-2016, 07:24
I use a 750.. and use the film area guide glass for 5x7 and 8x10 - no complaints

I use the film holder deal with 4x5 - also no complaints

now.. when I scan 120 with the film holder.. I feel like the film is flexing or sagging or something... I might try scanning with the glass deal next time..see what happens

but anyway.. use the glass thing that came with - and you will be able to slap the neg into approx. the same location most of the time just thru repetition

Smorton
18-May-2016, 07:55
Dr Tang:

Thank you. I have heard the 120 film holder isn't good on the Epson v800. Everyone seems to complaint in the reviews area.

It does not come with anti newton glass for 5 x 7 is my understanding.

If I understand correctly, the scanners have an optimal scanning height which apparently is slightly elevated above the glass. With BetterScan holders I worry that the center of the 5 x 7 negative will sag so I will first try it directly on the glass.

I have a professional company scan in 10 of the 5 x 7's. I see what I think are Newton rings. Over $10.00 per scan, which is probably fair but not impressed with quality.

Thank

Smorton

DrTang
18-May-2016, 08:01
in the scanner software - you choose either 'film holder' or 'film area guide' - which I believe changes where the lens focuses

you didn't get a film area guide glass deal? I think you can buy one from Epson

Ken Lee
18-May-2016, 08:03
If I understand correctly, the scanners have an optimal scanning height which apparently is slightly elevated above the glass. With BetterScan holders I worry that the center of the 5 x 7 negative will sag so I will first try it directly on the glass.


To reiterate Oren's point, when we use Epson film holders, the scanner detects that holders are in use and adjusts focus upwards accordingly. The same is true if we use BetterScanning holders.

If instead we scan with the "Film Area Guide" (simply a rectangle with a symbol on it which the scanner can detect) the scanner reverts to focus at the level of the glass.

Therefore if Newton's Rings are not a problem, we can get very good scans by simply taping the film to the scanner glass. I use blue painter's tape for this purpose and because the film is placed emulsion-side-down, the tape never damages the emulsion.

I tested again this morning and found that my on-the-glass scan using the Film Area Guide met or exceeded the resolution of my scan with my BetterScanning holder.

It seems to me that the key advantages of the Epson holders are the avoidance of Newton's Rings and convenience: they hold the film flat without the need for tape. However, they crop the image and because they are shiny, cast reflections on the film. The BetterScanning approach mitigates these problems, but is less convenient.

It's good to wear a pair of inexpensive white gloves when handling film: less risk of fingerprints, less need to clean them.

Smorton
18-May-2016, 08:14
Many thanks. I seem to be a little obsessed with this considering the scanner has not even arrived yet.

I will try without the betterscan holders. Regarding 2.25 negatives, it does appear that there are many complaints about the supplied holders. Maybe spend the extra money there.

Thanks again. A great forum and very helpful.

Smorton

Smorton
18-May-2016, 10:40
To reiterate Oren's point, when we use Epson film holders, the scanner detects that holders are in use and adjusts focus upwards accordingly. The same is true if we use BetterScanning holders.

If instead we scan with the "Film Area Guide" (simply a rectangle with a symbol on it which the scanner can detect) the scanner reverts to focus at the level of the glass.

Therefore if Newton's Rings are not a problem, we can get very good scans by simply taping the film to the scanner glass. I use blue painter's tape for this purpose and because the film is placed emulsion-side-down, the tape never damages the emulsion.

I tested again this morning and found that my on-the-glass scan using the Film Area Guide met or exceeded the resolution of my scan with my BetterScanning holder.

It seems to me that the key advantages of the Epson holders are the avoidance of Newton's Rings and convenience: they hold the film flat without the need for tape. However, they crop the image and because they are shiny, cast reflections on the film. The BetterScanning approach mitigates these problems, but is less convenient.

It's good to wear a pair of inexpensive white gloves when handling film: less risk of fingerprints, less need to clean them.

Thank you Kenneth.

By the way, you have a very nice website which and I am enjoying some of your articles. Your scans look great.

Smorton

Smorton
27-May-2016, 08:48
The Epson V800 arrived and I have been getting very good scans (in my humble opinion) simply by placing the negative on the glass and using the film area with 5 x 7 inch negatives. Interesting that I can compare the scans to the results from a professional lab where I just received 10 scans for $105.00. The ones from the Epson are better in my opinion.

The 8 x 10 anti-newton glass arrived yesterday and I have not had time to try it out. However, so far, I see no signs of Newton Rings in my scans of the 5 x 7 which are placed directly on the glass.

Now I am wondering if I could place 120 black and white film directly on the scanner. I have heard the 120 mounts are not too good.

Smorton

Ken Lee
27-May-2016, 10:32
Yes, the Epson is good for typical B&W negatives - especially because you are the operator and can take the time to make each one beautiful.

From 5x7 you should be able to make outstanding prints at very respectable size.

If you don't get Newton's rings, the only problem with roll film is keeping if flat. Using sufficient tape can help with that.

Ken Lee
28-May-2016, 04:25
http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/FilmSleeve.jpghttp://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/FilmSleeve2.jpg


One easy way to get roll-film (or sheet film) to lie on the scanner with minimal curling: store it long-term in film sleeves.

Smorton
6-Jun-2016, 15:27
http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/FilmSleeve.jpghttp://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/FilmSleeve2.jpg


One easy way to get roll-film (or sheet film) to lie on the scanner with minimal curling: store it long-term in film sleeves.

I didn't see this post until now. Good idea. Can you recommend a place for sleeves and in particular 5 x 5 inch?

Thank you.

SM

Ken Lee
6-Jun-2016, 16:43
I didn't see this post until now. Good idea. Can you recommend a place for sleeves and in particular 5 x 5 inch?

http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/FilmSleeve5x7.jpg

The brand shown here is called Print File Archival Storage Sleeves. Here is a link to the 5x7 version on B&H: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/43014-REG/Print_File_PF574P25_Archival_Storage_Page_for.html

Smorton
6-Jun-2016, 17:56
Thank you very much.

Smorton

Smorton
6-Jun-2016, 18:28
If I had a hundred 5x7 negatives to scan efficiently on my Epson V700, I'd make a negative holder out of mat board with attention to the cutout at the top of the holder and white squares on the bottom side. Such a negative holder would also let you shim the holder up for optimum focus.

What do you use for shims, Jim?

Thanks

Smorton

jnanian
7-Jun-2016, 04:17
Greetings:

New to all this, so please excuse if I seem dull.

I have about 100 or more black and white 5 x 7 inch negatives I want to scan with an Epson V800.

Can I put the negatives directly on the glass without use of a negative holder and have good results?

Any input highly appreciated.

Smorton

i have an old 4870 with a film scanning lid that is big enough for whole plate.
i asked a silmilar question IDK 10 years ago, and was told to take the clear plastic
stuff used for reports ( report cover ) and cut a hole in it to raise the film off the glass.
put a few layers down until it looked perfectly in focus. eventually i just put it right on the glass
and never noticed a difference. i have taken this approach with glass images i make too ..
right on the glass - crisp image, full tonality, no issues. no clue if this will work with a V800 or you are held hostage.
but it might be worth your while to check and see how it works. let the people say " it will never work"
maybe they are right? maybe they are wrong. i've done an awful lot of things i was told will never work
and they work just fine.

good luck

Smorton
7-Jun-2016, 17:41
i have an old 4870 with a film scanning lid that is big enough for whole plate.
i asked a silmilar question IDK 10 years ago, and was told to take the clear plastic
stuff used for reports ( report cover ) and cut a hole in it to raise the film off the glass.
put a few layers down until it looked perfectly in focus. eventually i just put it right on the glass
and never noticed a difference. i have taken this approach with glass images i make too ..
right on the glass - crisp image, full tonality, no issues. no clue if this will work with a V800 or you are held hostage.
but it might be worth your while to check and see how it works. let the people say " it will never work"
maybe they are right? maybe they are wrong. i've done an awful lot of things i was told will never work
and they work just fine.

good luck

Thanks. Great attitude!!

SM

Serge S
7-Jun-2016, 19:44
Glad to see this thread!
Now I feel better, because after testing the holders that came with my V800, I found, I was getting better results just taping my neg on the glass.
great to get confirmation from other users:)

Smorton
7-Jun-2016, 19:48
Serge,

This has been interesting. I also have been putting 5 x 7 negatives and 2.25 negatives directly on the glass with good results.

Smorton

Serge S
8-Jun-2016, 08:49
Serge,

This has been interesting. I also have been putting 5 x 7 negatives and 2.25 negatives directly on the glass with good results.

Smorton

Yes! I tried some 6x7's & they worked out great.
Good luck with your scans.

Serge

Professional
1-Jul-2016, 00:52
Would like to know what do you mean by good scan, do you mean sharp or you mean without newton rings or something else?

Doug Fisher
1-Jul-2016, 07:25
Glad to see this thread!
Now I feel better, because after testing the holders that came with my V800, I found, I was getting better results just taping my neg on the glass.
great to get confirmation from other users:)

If this is true, then most likely you didn't get the software setting correct (film with film holder) right before initiating a scan when scanning with the film holder so that the scanner was using the lens focused higher than the glass bed level and/or your holder's height was not properly calibrated. The former is a very common user error. Otherwise, your scanner hardware is defective and you should get it replaced under warranty.

Doug