The Future of Cone/MIS B&W Inksets?

[Peter York]

So, where is the new hope after the empire has struck back? I have been researching 24" printers with the aim of top notch B&W printing via an all grey inkset and the future looks grim. Epson has apparently shut this route down by screwing QTR and cone/mis inks with their newer printer models. I was all set to buy an Epson and now I will not buy another Epson product until these practices end. Heck, they should have just bought out cone's business and produced the inksets in house.

AFAIK neither Canon nor HP support third-party B&W inksets. So I ask: Is their a future for high-end B&W digital printing? Do you foresee Canon or HP collaborating with cone/mis in the near future? If not, what is the alternative? Caring for a legacy Epson as long as possible? Switching to Canon and using Bowhaus True Black and White while hoping for greater collaboration regarding b&w inksets? Reverting to the darkroom?

[Ken Lee]

Could you please elaborate ? What have the manufacturers have done to thoroughly prevent the use of non-OEM inks with their printers ?

This is the first I've heard of it. I see no mention of this on the Quadtone RIP forum either.

[Kirk Gittings]

Some of the best B&W digital printers I know don't use Cone inks.

[datro]

Some of the best B&W digital printers I know don't use Cone inks.

Aside from the question of which inks are being used by these "best B&W digital printers", I also wonder if they are even using Epson printers, and if so, are they doing their work with ABW or with QTR? And if not using Epson, then does Canon or HP standout?

Like the OP I am also wondering about the future of B&W digital printing, especially with Epson printers since that is what I use now (with ABW). Epson has made design changes in their latest printers to pretty much eliminate any possibility of using third-party cartridges/ink (starting with the P800 and up). But it is less clear to me if QTR will be able to support the newer Epsons which would still allow doing high quality B&W using the OEM inks. Most interesting is that Epson is offering 4 black shades on their new P20000 and P10000 printers (Black + three greys) which could make ABW even better, but it remains to be seen if they will do the necessary changes to ABW to take advantage of it. On the down side, these new printers seem to be aimed at high volume printing (e.g. lower resolution, 700ml carts only) and will probably not be ideal for the smaller fine art shops or individual printers. And we don't know yet if QTR would be an option with these printers.

It will be interesting to see where things go in the coming months regarding high-end B&W digital printing.

Dave

[Kirk Gittings]

So Santa Fe and ABQ are the homes of many first rate digital b&w printers, just like for silver and platinum etc. Some of these are purely commercial, some are in-house for the artist and some both. Many switched to Canon a few years back for reasons commonly known and are now rethinking Epson. The new Epson's (I don't own one but use one-printed a recent show on one) can do amazing b&w, amongst other things they have a superior d-max and a tweaked ABW. It can do everything I need. I did Cone inks for awhile but was disappointed when the Ardenberg tests came out showing they were less archival than Epson or Canon. For larger prints I can't do in-house I have been working with a shop with Canons (they also have large Epson's, some with Cone inks). The archival issue gradually soured me on Cone as I try to work with the most archival materials available.

[Drew Wiley]

What about consistency of sheen between the various shades of gray/black? That's the most common complaint I hear from friends using Epson.

[Alan9940]

I used Cone inks many, many years ago in my Epson 2200 and had a LOT of problems with them; I'm sure they've improved over the years. The folks over at BowHaus that created True Black and White software for Canon printers I believe use the OEM inkset. Haven't used this software...I don't own Canon printers...but I did use their IJC/OPM software years ago with Epson printers and Epson inks, and it was great! Over the years, I have formulated my own inksets using mostly MIS inks as the base, but I wouldn't go as far to say that any of these products or custom formulations are any better than Epson's ABW or, for that matter, printing B&W as color using a good color profile. I know a couple of B&W printers that use Colorbyte's ImagePrint RIP to print all their B&W (and color) images and they're superb!

Bottom line, I'm glad we all have options such as third-party inks and software for printing, but I remain unconvinced that these products are the only way to go for top-notch B&W output. That opinion and a few bucks at Starbucks will get ya a latte... :)

[Peter De Smidt]

The most light fast inks I know of are those made with pure carbon pigments, such as Cone's Sepia inkset and MIS's Eboni. They're on the warm side of neutral, but Eboni is less so, especially on papers like Epson's Hot Press Natural and Arches Hot Press. Those cotton papers have no optical brighteners, and they should last a very long time. Paul Roark who works with Eboni comes up with ink sets that work with QTR, but he also tries to have them work with Epson's print driver.

[Peter York]

Ken, I think the p600 and p800 printers are now driveable with QTR, but my Epson 3880 leaves pizza wheel marks and I need a printer with a vaccum back. No new 24" or 48" model is supported. And Epson has tried to shut out 3rd party inks with new chips and maybe more. This is nothing new as one only has to look at how Epson dealt with Roland. So, you are left with a very expensive RIP (ImagePrint) and 3 greys. For this type of setup, I will probably go with Canon.

Admittedly I should ratchet back the "top-notch" a bit. My current workflow is with ABW on matte papers and I am quite happy. However I want that extra 5%, especially in the highlights because I am more of a midtone photographer than a stark b&w one. I think the stark look is easier to achieve on the 3-4 grey sets with bartya papers, akin to a silver gelatin print. However I premain unconvinced that a 3-4 grey inkset is equal to an all-grey inkset, primarily due to the advanced dithering that can be applied.

It has been a couple years since I looked at longevity data Kirk, so I will have to again. At that point the Vivera inksets were clearly superior to Epson but I have not yet looked at Canon ink. The cone carbon set appears to be quite promising, though I am willing to sacrifice some longevity for print quality. I tend to think that there is a top tier w.r.t. archival characteristics, and all 3 printer brands can get you there, though Epson inks seem to be somewhat at a disadvantage.

[Peter York]

Bottom line, I'm glad we all have options such as third-party inks and software for printing, but I remain unconvinced that these products are the only way to go for top-notch B&W output.

Will we? The printer manufacturers have to be open to an inexpensive 3rd party RIP as well as 3rd party inks. The first is easier for the companies to concede since that does not impact the ink racket. Admittedly a rip alone will get you far as you can linearize the printer and set ink limits. The 3rd party inks appear to be the most endangered.

[Alan9940]

Will we? The printer manufacturers have to be open to an inexpensive 3rd party RIP as well as 3rd party inks.

The printer manufacturers have to be open to third-party inks? No they don't! Think about it...these manufacturers make most of their profit selling their ink; not selling the hardware. For example, a couple years ago I bought a Canon Pro-100 for $89 brand new! I never owned a Canon printer and just couldn't pass on it due to the price. But, each cartridge runs about $17 per and the thing does cleaning cycles like there's no tomorrow! Read: it costs a lot to run this printer and who's making the profit?

I hope we can use whatever inks we wish to in our printers for years to come, but I won't be surprised if (when?) the day comes that it all ends. Just sayin...

[djdister]

Selling cartridges of ink is the money maker for the printer manufacturers. So what will it take to get them to sell a printer with a set of monochrome inks? If they see sufficient demand, they will supply...

[Ken Lee]

Ken, I think the p600 and p800 printers are now driveable with QTR, but my Epson 3880 leaves pizza wheel marks.

As long as I maintain my 3880 properly, there are no pizza wheel marks - at least with the paper/ink combination I use.

On the other hand, with MIS Eboni inks it needs regular attention to relieve clogged channels, but I've learned how to handle those. It's a small price to pay for the ability to use pure Carbon inks at modest cost and make our own profiles for any paper we choose.

The (comparatively new) Print Tool (http://www.quadtonerip.com/html/QTRprinttool.html) printer driver for Mac OS supports HP as well as Epson printers and the newer Epson models get QTR support sooner or later.

As far as I can tell, we're in a golden age of archival inkjet printing.

You might find this article (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/carbon/index.php) on printing with MIS Carbon inks with the the 3880 interesting.

You might also find this article (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/carbon/Epson3880.php) on maintaining the 3880 interesting.

You might also find this article (http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/) by Paul Roark interesting.

[Alan9940]

On the other hand, with MIS Eboni inks it needs regular attention to relieve clogged channels, but I've learned how to handle those. It's a small price to pay for the ability to use pure Carbon inks at modest cost and make our own profiles for any paper we choose.


I guess this depends on where you live...I run Epson OEM inks in my 3880 and I have to run it every 4 - 5 days to keep the heads free of clogs.

[Ken Lee]

I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm glad to know that the problem is not limited to after-market inks.

I've heard that low humidity is the problem. Perhaps we should make a special "damp room" for storing these printers, like a greenhouse :cool:

[Taija71A]

Could you please elaborate? What have the manufacturers have done to thoroughly prevent the use of non-OEM inks with their printers?
This is the first I've heard of it. I see no mention of this on the Quadtone RIP forum either.

Ken, I believe that Peter was (perhaps?) originally referring to statements 'like this' for the various Jon Cone Ink Sets.
Please see the Inkjet Mall Website (*Re: The 'latest' Epson SureColor P800, P6000, P7000, P8000 and P9000 Printers)...
For Details:

http://shop.inkjetmall.com/Shop-By-Printer/Epson-SureColor-Printers/
(Please 'Click' on respective Printer Model... To see Comment as cited Below).

"Please note that according to Epson, this printer is designed to work exclusively with Epson inks and not with other brands of cartridges.
What we are finding in our testing with chips is that the ink synchronization is not permitted with non-OEM carts and several write-backs
are blocked.

We can supply you with papers for these printers, but it may take a long time until reliable cartridges are available from InkjetMall."
--

Thank-you! Kind regards,

-Tim.

[Drew Wiley]

Too little PEG in the inks and they dry out; too much and they dry too slowly after printing. It's inherent; but climate/humidity/ventilation are obviously related.

[Peter York]

Tim, yes I was originally referring to that statement, as well as statemets referring to Roy Harrington having trouble obtaining access codes for QTR.

[Drew Wiley]

My second post was related to my first. The unevenness of sheen in blacks might be related to our foggy climate, that is, in conjunction with how PEG affects this
during drying. Wanted to hear from folks elsewhere in the country, specifically regarding Epson inks. It's not a personal problem, but one I've been asked by friends
who do print inkjet, since I have a lot of experience in analogous pigment systems. Going to extremely fine lampblack only solves part of the equation, because
lampblack cannot by itself become a truly neutral black, but will allow formulation with less PEG.

[Ken Lee]

Ken, I believe that Peter was (perhaps?) originally referring to statements 'like this' for the various Jon Cone Ink Sets.
Please see the Inkjet Mall Website (*Re: The 'latest' Epson SureColor P800, P6000, P7000, P8000 and P9000 Printers)...
For Details:

Thank you for that most helpful information. I created a post on the QTR forum which asks about this.

[Taija71A]

You, are more than welcome Ken!
Glad to be of some assistance.

[Kirk Gittings]

What about consistency of sheen between the various shades of gray/black? That's the most common complaint I hear from friends using Epson.

I don't mind it. Plus all my work is shown and sold framed under glass or acrylic-not an issue

[Ken Lee]

So Santa Fe and ABQ are the homes of many first rate digital b&w printers, just like for silver and platinum etc. Some of these are purely commercial, some are in-house for the artist and some both. Many switched to Canon a few years back for reasons commonly known and are now rethinking Epson. The new Epson's (I don't own one but use one-printed a recent show on one) can do amazing b&w, amongst other things they have a superior d-max and a tweaked ABW. It can do everything I need. I did Cone inks for awhile but was disappointed when the Ardenberg tests came out showing they were less archival than Epson or Canon. For larger prints I can't do in-house I have been working with a shop with Canons (they also have large Epson's, some with Cone inks). The archival issue gradually soured me on Cone as I try to work with the most archival materials available.

Are you referring to the newest Epson printers ? Here is an interesting comparison of Epson ABW and QTR, using an Epson 9900 (not the latest printer). See http://www.bwmastery.com/blog/2015/abw-vs-qtr (http://www.bwmastery.com/blog/2015/abw-vs-qtr).

The technology changes so quickly, it's... vexing !

[bob carnie]

I have been using a Canon IPF with the new inksets 12 in total, I love the quality that this unit will give.

[Kirk Gittings]

Are you referring to the newest Epson printers ? Here is an interesting comparison of Epson ABW and QTR, using an Epson 9900 (not the latest printer). See http://www.bwmastery.com/blog/2015/abw-vs-qtr (http://www.bwmastery.com/blog/2015/abw-vs-qtr).

The technology changes so quickly, it's... vexing !

Yes people are reevaluating the Canons based on the newest Epsons I was going to jump to Canon this year but not now.

[Ken Lee]

Is there anything online about these evaluations ?

Cost and convenience aside, it seems to me there are 2 basic issues: image permanence and image quality.

[Peter York]

I was wrong w.r.t. QTR working with the newest epson models. See https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/QuadtoneRIP/conversations/topics/13448

The cone/mis inkset availability for these printers still troubles me.

[Ken Lee]

Roy Harrington, the author of Quadtone RIP and PrintTool, wrote this on the QTR foum:


"Print-Tool is an app and supports any of the drivers - Epson or QTR driver right now.
QTR driver seems fine so far with all new printers except P10K and P20K. No idea if they will ever work but I'll try if I can get a chance (i.e. Access to one)."


There are 4 issues: cartridges, printer drivers, image quality and image permanence. For now, as far as I can tell, the solution which gives the best options in all 4 categories is the MIS inkset. It's also more affordable and flexible. You can profile any paper you like, but on the other hand you have to make your own profiles and documentation and support for problems is spotty at best.

We all get to decide where we draw the line: What is permanent enough ? What looks good enough ? What is easy enough ? etc.

[onnect17]

I tried MIS long time ago with good results but the the Eboni got too "warm" for my taste. I'm currently diluting expired Epson Matte (happy with the results) and I can't find a cheaper solution. My cost of preparing a new set of 7 shades of 220ml is around $40 to $50.

The achilles heel of QTR (IMHO) is the interpolation methods, so I use perfect resize or qimage before loading it in QTR.

[Peter De Smidt]

Eboni on Epson Hot Press Natural is very close to neutral. In LAB the B channel, i.e. the blue/yellow axis, never gets above 3. 0 is neutral.

[onnect17]

Is the Epson Hot Press Natural off-white, right?

[Ken Lee]

Like others of its type, it is off-white compared to papers that have coatings and optical brightening agents. On the other hand, it's acid-free, lignin-free, 100% cotton rag.

For commercial photography where the image must be dramatic but will be tossed away at the end of the advertising campaign, such papers are probably inappropriate. For documentary or fine art photographs intended to resist fading and discoloration as long as possible, this sort of paper is probably a more sensible option.

Aardenburg Imaging (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/) is a great resource to see how different papers and inks fade and shift over time. Although different colors change differently, we can look at the average Delta E value for a quick summary of the printer/paper/ink.

[onnect17]

Thanks Ken. I forgot to check the Epson paper sampler and it was included. It's not that off as I was thinking and points toward the yellow/green. I will check the local photo shop.

[Ken Lee]

I'm not familiar with all kinds of glass, but whenever I've had something framed, the glass itself has a slight blue cast and tends to diminish the warmth of my prints. Given the irregularity of display lighting and wall colors, the whole issue is hard to control unless we show our work in a lab :cool:

[WalkerBlackwell]

I have P800 carts in now that I'm testing. There are some hiccups and QC cycles that need to happen but we hope to launch soon.

However, it does look like there will need to be some work done with the QTR dither for the new PrecisionCore heads so we are having to tackle two fronts.

There is no reason why the rest of the pro SureColors wouldn't follow. Just FYI, Piezo ink is encapsulated and has very different chemistry (and therefore plastic requirements) than MIS so it's not always going to work in every refillable ink cart out there. We do durability tests at IJM and always go back and forth to make a quality cartridge . . .

When these buggers are working on the P800, there is no reason existing IJM 3880 carts wouldn't work with a simple chip switch.

best,
Walker Blackwell
R&D @ InkjetMall