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Ari
15-Mar-2016, 06:40
If you decide to buy new, Inglis washers are excellent: http://www.alistairinglis.com/film-washers/

Michael Kadillak
15-Mar-2016, 20:54
I concur with Ari's comments about the Inglis washer for sheet film. Took me a while to figure out that sheet film needs to be washed in a slot individually and the Inglis washer does it with minimal water and an innovative design that puts this device to use weekly. I own the Inglis washer in 4x5, 5x7, 8x10, 8x20 and 11x14. They just get the job done.

Jim Noel
16-Mar-2016, 08:51
Nothing beats 5 two minute soaks, with agitation, in a tray.Tests of many washers have been made over the years, but none has left the film, or paper, cleaner than this simple method. Also nothing beats this method for conserving water. Those of us in the west have to be very aware of the total volume of water used in processing.

Ken Lee
16-Mar-2016, 11:33
You might find this helpful: Dishrack Film Washer (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/tech/dishrack.php)

Ari
16-Mar-2016, 12:15
I just saw your location.
If you're actually riding around in a caravan for a while, then I'll change my recommendation to concur with Jim and Ken; water might sometimes be scarce and the soak method will help conserve water.

caleb
16-Mar-2016, 19:37
Jim and Ken make an excellent point Ari, I gave up trying to locate the old style black rubber tanks for hand processing, one of those "I shoulda kept those" things. I am doing my processing in batches when I am in campgrounds that have water hook-ups. The thing that is killing me is what to do with the used chemistry, the fixer in particular. Once the project gets rolling next month I'll be updating the website and blogging along the way. I will keep looking for tubs or tanks that can hold 6 of the 5x7 metal holders and try the soak method.
www.tincandarkroom.com

-Caleb

Daniel Stone
16-Mar-2016, 21:07
Caleb,

if you are in a single place for a few days, set out a tray and pour your used fixer into it. Put some sort of mesh or screen atop it, to keep birds out of it. Leave it out in the warm sunlight, so the water will (hopefully) evaporate. The chemical residue left in the bottom of the tray can then be scraped/dusted out, bagged, and tossed in the waste bin.

-Dan

Oren Grad
17-Mar-2016, 06:59
Discussion moved from FS/WTB section.

caleb
17-Mar-2016, 07:38
that's a good suggestion Dan. Thanks!

adelorenzo
17-Mar-2016, 09:05
Agree with Ari, I spent the money on a 4x5 Inglis washer and I couldn't be happier with it in the darkroom.

For your situation, I used to wash my 4x5 right in the Jobo drum I developed it in. Same as the Ilford method for inversion tanks I used 5 washes, the first fairly short and then each getting longer. With 2-3 L of water I could easily wash 10 sheets in my Jobo expert drum.

Randy Moe
17-Mar-2016, 09:48
I wash on hangers as I process on hangers.

But you need to remove from hangers to dry best.

Peter De Smidt
17-Mar-2016, 10:47
I don't process large amount of film, and so I wash most negs in my Jobo Expert Drum, using spent sulfite-containing developer as a wash aid. If I have lots of film to process, I use a DIY insert in for my 11x14 Versalab print washer. The insert holds 4x5 or 5x7 sheets.

Kirk Gittings
17-Mar-2016, 11:10
using spent sulfite-containing developer as a wash aid.

Peter could you explain this-a new one on me.

Peter De Smidt
17-Mar-2016, 16:20
Ryuji Suzuki recommended this to me. Washing aid is a sodium sulfite solution. Many developers are a sulfite solution. Assuming this is true of your developer, the used developer can be used just like a wash aid. Since the film has been fixed, the developer doesn't have any adverse effects, and it saves making a separate solution of wash aid. I've been doing this for a couple of years, and as far as I can tell it works fine.

scheinfluger_77
17-Mar-2016, 16:56
You might find this helpful: Dishrack Film Washer (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/tech/dishrack.php)

I like it. For a moment I had visions of a tongue-n-cheek post with a dishwasher in the mix.

Bruce Watson
18-Mar-2016, 07:59
Nothing beats 5 two minute soaks, with agitation, in a tray.Tests of many washers have been made over the years, but none has left the film, or paper, cleaner than this simple method. Also nothing beats this method for conserving water. Those of us in the west have to be very aware of the total volume of water used in processing.

I think washing in a Jobo might beat this. I wash in a 3010 drum, also five water changes, but at 1, 1, 2, 4, 8 minutes. Tests with the old (now gone?) Kodak residual hypo test kit showed that I was "done" after the forth wash (no hypo staining I could detect), but I was washing TMY-2 and it was still very purple at that stage, so my last wash was to get much of the remaining dye out. I was washing 10 sheets of 5x4 at a time, in half a liter of water, so 2.5 liters total. Which I suspect is less water than your tray version uses, but IDK for sure.

So, how'd I do?

Willie
18-Mar-2016, 10:29
Jim and Ken make an excellent point Ari, I gave up trying to locate the old style black rubber tanks for hand processing, one of those "I shoulda kept those" things. I am doing my processing in batches when I am in campgrounds that have water hook-ups. The thing that is killing me is what to do with the used chemistry, the fixer in particular. Once the project gets rolling next month I'll be updating the website and blogging along the way. I will keep looking for tubs or tanks that can hold 6 of the 5x7 metal holders and try the soak method.
www.tincandarkroom.com

-Caleb

Generally you can mix fix with developer and neutralize it.
Other than that Eastman Kodak has a number of studies that show normal home darkroom use is no problem for septic and sewer systems.

Sal Santamaura
18-Mar-2016, 16:00
...Eastman Kodak has a number of studies that show normal home darkroom use is no problem for septic and sewer systems.Those are old documents. They refer to the effect on biological breakdown of household waste in the septic tank. They don't address impact of running darkroom chemicals through leach fields, namely clogging and reduced service life. Most importantly, however, they ignore the matter of depositing heavy metals in the water table.

The EPA is a better source of up-to-date information on this than old Kodak publications.

Duolab123
18-Mar-2016, 18:36
I use a Calumet Roll film washer, holds two Jobo 2509n reels. I process on a CPP2, 5 min rapid fix, then 90 sec. Kodak Hypo clearing agent, 2 or 3 quick washes on the processor to clean the lift and rinse out the majority of the HCA. Then I transfer the reels to the washer and run at 1 change every 25 to 30 seconds for 5 or 6 min.

Finally, Photoflo in DI water, film on the reel in a short tank 1 reel at a time.

If I'm only processing 1 reel I wash in the tank, with a hose stuck in the reel core, and I dump out the water several times.

I always use Hypo clearing agent, because its the only way I can get the darn purple out of TMAX!

I made a siphon washer out of a Kodak Hard Rubber tank, works great for film on hangers.

Nothing more enjoyable than processing film!
Best Regards, Mike

Doremus Scudder
19-Mar-2016, 03:32
Ryuji Suzuki recommended this to me. Washing aid is a sodium sulfite solution. Many developers are a sulfite solution. Assuming this is true of your developer, the used developer can be used just like a wash aid. Since the film has been fixed, the developer doesn't have any adverse effects, and it saves making a separate solution of wash aid. I've been doing this for a couple of years, and as far as I can tell it works fine.

Peter,

Your logic is good here, but I would be concerned about developing agents taking longer to wash out. I've read somewhere that hydroquinone takes some time to wash out of film. It would be interesting to here comments about this from some of the photochemists out there.

My washing regime:
I rarely use wash-aid with film since I use staining developers and sulfite tends to remove the stain. I have Gravity Works film washers and use them in a fill-and-dump washing regime that stops the water flow (so I don't use so much water) and lets the film soak during the first several changes. Fill-5-min. soak-dump-refill-5-min. soak-dump-refill-5-min. soak-dump-turn the film 180 and then the last 15 minutes with the normal Gravity Works siphon fill-and-dump at the lowest possible setting (one cycle every 2-3 minutes). 30 minutes total. Dump water gets used for rinsing trays, etc. whenever possible to save water.

Best,

Doremus

LabRat
19-Mar-2016, 06:49
You don't really need a washing aid for film… The down side is that it will start re-swelling the film, undoing the hardening action of a hardening fix, making the gelatin softer when handling wet…

Washing aids are for FB papers, as thiosulfate complexes get trapped in the base fibers, and the aids help allow them to leave by osmotic pressure… But sometimes with low key prints and the prevailing water conditions, these can leave a slight veil or haze over the prints and make the prints more sensitive to handling while wet… The washing aids only slightly cut the washing time, so nothing beats a good wash!!!

Steve K

Peter De Smidt
19-Mar-2016, 07:38
Peter,

Your logic is good here, but I would be concerned about developing agents taking longer to wash out. I've read somewhere that hydroquinone takes some time to wash out of film. It would be interesting to here comments about this from some of the photochemists out there.



That's a good point. My developer is of the phenidone/ascorbic acid variety. Ryuji is a pretty good photo chemist, having designed a number of commercial products.

Duolab123
19-Mar-2016, 20:10
You don't really need a washing aid for film… The down side is that it will start re-swelling the film, undoing the hardening action of a hardening fix, making the gelatin softer when handling wet…

Washing aids are for FB papers, as thiosulfate complexes get trapped in the base fibers, and the aids help allow them to leave by osmotic pressure… But sometimes with low key prints and the prevailing water conditions, these can leave a slight veil or haze over the prints and make the prints more sensitive to handling while wet… The washing aids only slightly cut the washing time, so nothing beats a good wash!!!

Steve K

I agree with everything you have said here. I use HCA to help to get rid of the purple, I know it doesn't effect printing but it drives me crazy. The oldest and best reason to use hypo clear was the good old days with not only fiberbases absorbing fixer, but maybe more to the point sodium thiosulfate is almost insoluble in very cold water, you could wash all day and not remove all the hypo. HCA improved cold water washing.
Ammonium sulfate rapid fix, makes HCA obsolete for film and RC paper, for all the reasons you have stated.
I do routinely use Hypo clear to makeup Rapid Selenium toner for paper. I go right from my final fix bath to the toner in HCA.
I dispise powder F-5 fixer it stinks!
Best Mike

Peter De Smidt
19-Mar-2016, 20:47
You don't really need a washing aid for film… The down side is that it will start re-swelling the film, undoing the hardening action of a hardening fix, making the gelatin softer when handling wet…



I use non-hardening rapid fix, and I've never had a problem with emulsion damage. I mainly use the used developer treatment to get rid of any pink stain with tmx and tmy. It might also help with washing, which I do in my Jobo with 6 changes of water, but I haven't done any tests.